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On January 25 2011 21:05 Gigadrill wrote:
I think a lot of zerg players realise that they are playing what people believe to be the "weak" race and like to exaggerate the actual difficulty of playing the race.
Honestly, half the posts about zerg on TL just say that it's incredibly hard to play zerg only after making sure everyone knows they are a zerg player. In my time on this forum (which I admit is not exceptionally long) I have never seen a serious or non-trolly post from another race saying that they are easily rolling through zerg because of the zerg making some miniscule mistake.
In regards to having no strong units before hive tech; muta, ling and baneling is one of the most common unit compositions used by zerg and none of those units require hive tech or even need hive tech to get upgrades.
Zerg pros will tell you zerg has a hard time, but also pros of other races have offered their opinions in interviews where for instance oGsMC said zergs had a hard time and he believed it was because of the maps. Him among others.
Personally I don't think it's a coincidence that from Code A, Code S and the IEM there have been 4 terrans in the semi finals and 1 zerg in code S. I also like to think this is suppoeted by my own anecdotal observations around 2600 diamond (which is bad):
The absolutely worst players i get pitched up against at my rating are terrans, hands down - and occationally some protoss that tries to 4gate me turns out to be as bad. But, ive played games against slightly favored terrans where we had a close game and the replay confirmed my suspicion: in a 20min game he had no other scouting information then his initial SCV showed him (fast expo and pool under way) - and yet he made high diamond playing that way. I even called his tech after scouting, "blueflame helion into banshee?" and he still commits to it even though im obviously prepared. On the flipside, if i had played like him i would have lost the game to his blind tech which is not even all-in(since we played for 20min in a reasonably close game). It just shows a fundamental lack of understanding that i would be hard pressed to find in any zerg or non 4gating protoss at the same rating.
So yes, its definitely harder to play zerg at my skill level and if i should believe the pro's its like that further up aswell.
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While I agree with the OP about many of his feelings, I'd like to put a couple ideas out there for everyone to consider.
1. Mismicro'd marine splits vs banelings anywhere after the midgame will auto-lose terran the game (vs equal level zergs)
2. Unscouted and unprepared banshee harass is equally deadly against protoss and terran (Re: Jinro). That's more a fundamental aspect of the cloaked banshee- you're f*cked if you don't know they're coming.
3. As for losing to a single mistake; a missed force field or hole in a T-wall + Show Spoiler +re: Sang-Ho and Jinro respectively in GSL
3a. That, in my opinion, is not winning the game the wrong way- and is one of the most obvious ways across the board to punish a mistake, for any race. Having played both zerg and protoss (why play terran, i have self respect SARCASM ^_^ ) I can assure you no loss is more frustrating than having a sure win as Protoss thrown away by a simple missed forcefield at a ramp. The excessive tendency to punish for your mistakes seems to be something both Protoss and Zerg feel more than Terran. Just a race thing, if you can't handle the volatility of those swings, switch races.
4. Overseers at the higher levels (talking GSL mostly) are used before ovie-speed, to avoid spending all that gas for scouting.
5. Creep is one of the most effective ways to "scout." (I use quotes because I consider it similar in effect to scouting for the other races). Until a push comes (or your opponent is on-top of killing creep tumors throughout the midgame) you have free vision of the ground routes to your base. The better you spread your creep, the better your scouting is, thus the better you can prepare (one major problem for zergs is the requirement to be prepared at all times. Overlords allow you to scout the air routes that creep does not. If more zergs are not taking advantage of that, it is at the fault of the player, not the race. Now, creep spread isn't always THAT simple to do, but you need look no further than the top zergs in the world to see how integral creep spread is. NOW, compare that to the scouting ability of a hellion or a reaper, both easily dealt with by the quick moving mutalisks or speedlings.
6. Zerg has the ability to control the map in the midgame with fast moving units (mutas/lings). The problem is the belief that those units must win you the game. A poster prior on this thread explained that zerg is not a deathball race, and the way to better play them is to understand that concept. That you must outmaneuver and flank your opponents, use positional advantage, rather than yelling CHARGE! and throwing your army head first at them. I am reposting what I felt his idea was, rather than quote. He couldn't be more correct
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lets just wait for SC3. Bliz should skip SC2 expansions and just start workin on SC3 where they bring back the original BW feeling.
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Potential fixes:
Allow Overseers with an evo chamber
Allow Overlord speed with T1
Add upgrade for spine crawlers for + range so they match seige tanks
Fix Ultralisk pathing so that they are more like Collosus.
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You have some correct points like : the scouting problem and the map pool. However I feel like you exagerated a lot of things. Yes, zerg is hard atm but its not impossible to win by any means.
But I see why you posted that. I indeed get the same feeling often time. Getting destroyed by an opponent who did everything wrong the whole game and still managed to beat me (ie. 2rax bunker rushes, into scvs all-ins, into 2port cloak banshees etc..). Zerg walk on a thin line between winning or losing, and it can be very frustrating at times, but its also for that reason that I'm playing Zerg. The feeling that every decision is really important is really interresting.
ps: yay 1000th post
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wow wall of text ... the people will do better with other races stayed into my mind. I went to diamond with zerg (pre reaper nerf) and am now platin again with purely terran. Zerg was always my easy win race and the one i struggle against the most with other races.
So guess i am one of the examples that do not work with your theory (using alot of cutesy play as zerg though and have a really harassiv playstyle like with every race not only terran speed prisms and phoenix are the best in my opinion hehe)
And i always felt really save as a zerg early game because of your very own t1 true immortal called the queen. Hmm might test toss and zerg again for a few days and see if my rank rises, since people got stronger against unusual playstyles, but most still don't expect it.
edit: oh right i love the inbuild maphack for zergs denies every harassment 
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On January 25 2011 21:36 Morphs wrote:
Of course Terran has weaknesses. Terran fears the speed of Zerg mostly. But fortunately that would mean for Zerg to be the agressor and Zerg is the reactor.
The main problem is this: The agressor almost always has an advantage. He decides when to strike and where to strike. Furthermore during the attack the defender may loose important structures while the agressor is free from that risk and can tech/expand/build army uncontested.
The aggressor is not free from risk, he risks losing his army and being behind economically when his aggression fails, which happens to many of those Terrans who for some reason feel a compulsion to try and end the game within 7 minutes with marines and bunkers vs. fast expanding Zergs but don't have the skill or timing to pull it off. Time for Zerg to lay back and macro up to then be the aggressor, for example with Mutalisks. Your last paragraph unintentionally describes their role and use quite well.
I don't know whether Zerg is really underpowered, it might be, but I do know that many of the points people make in these threads do not really hold.
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another very long thread that says how zerg is inferior to the other 2 races while saying that is not the point of the thread, from you whole post I couldnt find one good point your trying to say other than zerg is weaker ?
seriously what is the point if these threads, I dont see the message...
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On January 25 2011 22:21 AcOrP wrote:
lets just wait for SC3. Bliz should skip SC2 expansions and just start workin on SC3 where they bring back the original BW feeling.
I'm speechless.
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Here's what I think:
Zerg:
Buff Nydus
Buff Zerg T3
Buff Hydra
Make overlord speed cost 50/50 and T1
Toss:
Reduce Sentry FF cap to 3
Make warping in units take more damage (like 20%)
Terran:
Half the energy cost and duration of MULES
I don't think reintroducing the Lurker is a good idea, this is not bw. I'd like to see more useful Zerg spells though.
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On January 26 2011 00:12 decaf wrote:
Here's what I think:
Zerg:
Buff Nydus
Buff Zerg T3
Buff Hydra
Make overlord speed cost 50/50 and T1
Toss:
Reduce Sentry FF cap to 3
Make warping in units take more damage (like 20%)
Terran:
Half the energy cost and duration of MULES
I don't think reintroducing the Lurker is a good idea, this is not bw. I'd like to see more useful Zerg spells though.
This is the problem with threads like these.
Most players see a problem, and immediately think of what would make them happy. Before posting things like this, I'd suggest some consideration to overall balance before posts like this. Absolutely none of those ideas would work.
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On January 25 2011 09:43 confusedcrib wrote:
This post is very biased, I don't even know where to start. No one gets Overseers, together with overlord speed they are the best scout in the game, not observers. Zerg has the best ability to scout the front early on, let me just run my marine up and down the front of your map, oh wait. Close spawns forces good timings and making units, it means that you actually can't overdrone without the potential to be punished, it is not an instant loss, it is just hard; like how winning cross on metalopolis v zerg as anything else is hard but not impossible.
Tl;DR Less QQ more pew pew
This post is absolutely retarded. Plenty of players get overseers including myself to contaminate robos etc., just saying they don't doesn't make it so. I get overlord speed in just about every macro ZvT and ZvP right after lair finishes so T/P players need to stop saying "X thing is underused". You act like T and P are using everything at their disposable to improve and Z players just sit in some cave moaning not actively trying to fix issues. Scout the ramp? Really? This is your solution to scouting issues? What if they, I don't know... build shit in the middle of their base far away from the ramp? And please, it doesn't have to be close positions to die from overdroning, it can happen pretty easily in any positions because Zerg as a race is extremely dependent on scouting for the mid/early game.
The no one gets them was sarcastic, scouting the ramp is essential and you can leave the lings there to see if a push is coming, sacking an overlord is almost guaranteed way to spot a 4 gate, and then you're at "tier 2" and get the best scouting in the game.
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On January 25 2011 21:42 explicit wrote:
Zerg pros will tell you zerg has a hard time, but also pros of other races have offered their opinions in interviews where for instance oGsMC said zergs had a hard time and he believed it was because of the maps. Him among others.
PvZ isnt really effected by maps
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On January 26 2011 00:15 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 00:12 decaf wrote:
Here's what I think:
Zerg:
Buff Nydus
Buff Zerg T3
Buff Hydra
Make overlord speed cost 50/50 and T1
Toss:
Reduce Sentry FF cap to 3
Make warping in units take more damage (like 20%)
Terran:
Half the energy cost and duration of MULES
I don't think reintroducing the Lurker is a good idea, this is not bw. I'd like to see more useful Zerg spells though. This is the problem with threads like these. Most players see a problem, and immediately think of what would make them happy. Before posting things like this, I'd suggest some consideration to overall balance before posts like this. Absolutely none of those ideas would work.
You got it all wrong.
All of those ideas would actually work, that's why I posted them.
Overall balance can't be achieved fore HotS is out, because they messed up the design.
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On January 26 2011 00:12 decaf wrote:
Here's what I think:
Zerg:
Buff Nydus
Buff Zerg T3
Buff Hydra
Make overlord speed cost 50/50 and T1
Toss:
Reduce Sentry FF cap to 3
Make warping in units take more damage (like 20%)
Terran:
Half the energy cost and duration of MULES
I don't think reintroducing the Lurker is a good idea, this is not bw. I'd like to see more useful Zerg spells though.
Zerg:
Nydus, ye definetely needs a buff, either cheaper or back to beta/alpha nydus. Still has its uses atm, but well, offensive drops are hardly possible vs smart players.
T3, well Ultraliskbuffs are needed (or some of his counteruntis are nerfed), Broods are fine as they are, even stronger/faster would be ridiculous..
Hydras.. well not really necessary, but nice to see i guess, maybe a speedupgrade for t2.5 (after infestor pit).
Oviespeed cheaper and T1, well one of them is okay but not both. I'd rather see Speed on T1 for 100/100. 50/50 might be too cheap.
Toss:
Reduce Sentry FF cap? I'd rather see Sentry who cant fit into a Warp Prism so that they can block of your main ramp and have an easy kill with your expos, because your units wont get there in time and you are trapped in your base.
Warping Units dont need to take more damage.
Terran:
Your change is pointless, half energy, half duration is the same as full energy and full duration, only you have to cooldown twice. which every player will do, especially early game when it matters.
Though thats what i'd like to see, my only problem i have with Zerg is that their T1 base scouting is bad.
I would be happy if they fix that + maps.
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On January 25 2011 21:05 Gigadrill wrote:
I think a lot of zerg players realise that they are playing what people believe to be the "weak" race and like to exaggerate the actual difficulty of playing the race.
Honestly, half the posts about zerg on TL just say that it's incredibly hard to play zerg only after making sure everyone knows they are a zerg player.
it's BW terran all over again!
Honestly though. While I'd love to say that Zerg players just aren't playing well enough, as was the case with BW terran, it's hard to argue with an elo ranking that has just one Zerg in the top 20. I think something needs to be done to help Zerg.I'm not a balance designer, so I won't pretend to know what needs to be done. Hopefully Blizzard figures it out sometime soon.
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On January 25 2011 21:45 Durp wrote:While I agree with the OP about many of his feelings, I'd like to put a couple ideas out there for everyone to consider. 1. Mismicro'd marine splits vs banelings anywhere after the midgame will auto-lose terran the game (vs equal level zergs) 2. Unscouted and unprepared banshee harass is equally deadly against protoss and terran (Re: Jinro). That's more a fundamental aspect of the cloaked banshee- you're f*cked if you don't know they're coming. 3. As for losing to a single mistake; a missed force field or hole in a T-wall + Show Spoiler +re: Sang-Ho and Jinro respectively in GSL will win a game for zerg. 3a. That, in my opinion, is not winning the game the wrong way- and is one of the most obvious ways across the board to punish a mistake, for any race. Having played both zerg and protoss (why play terran, i have self respect SARCASM ^_^ ) I can assure you no loss is more frustrating than having a sure win as Protoss thrown away by a simple missed forcefield at a ramp. The excessive tendency to punish for your mistakes seems to be something both Protoss and Zerg feel more than Terran. Just a race thing, if you can't handle the volatility of those swings, switch races. 4. Overseers at the higher levels (talking GSL mostly) are used before ovie-speed, to avoid spending all that gas for scouting. 5. Creep is one of the most effective ways to "scout." (I use quotes because I consider it similar in effect to scouting for the other races). Until a push comes (or your opponent is on-top of killing creep tumors throughout the midgame) you have free vision of the ground routes to your base. The better you spread your creep, the better your scouting is, thus the better you can prepare (one major problem for zergs is the requirement to be prepared at all times. Overlords allow you to scout the air routes that creep does not. If more zergs are not taking advantage of that, it is at the fault of the player, not the race. Now, creep spread isn't always THAT simple to do, but you need look no further than the top zergs in the world to see how integral creep spread is. NOW, compare that to the scouting ability of a hellion or a reaper, both easily dealt with by the quick moving mutalisks or speedlings. 6. Zerg has the ability to control the map in the midgame with fast moving units (mutas/lings). The problem is the belief that those units must win you the game. A poster prior on this thread explained that zerg is not a deathball race, and the way to better play them is to understand that concept. That you must outmaneuver and flank your opponents, use positional advantage, rather than yelling CHARGE! and throwing your army head first at them. I am reposting what I felt his idea was, rather than quote. He couldn't be more correct
1. Because Terran are too much marine heavy. Tanks and Marauder take a lot of banelings to kill, sadly there are a lot of terran who just don't make any marauders anymore, not to mention they wait the 15th minute to get tanks. Marine is not the counter to baneling, and everyone is not MKP.
2. Yeah sure, but not scouting (or preventing) a banshee harass with zerg is INSTANT loose, whereas you can always take it with minimum injury while playing terran. We don't see many bansee harass vs protoss because stalkers are just too fast.
3. I don't have anything to say about this, not saying I agree with everything you say and the comparison you make.
4.Yeah, overseer are great, and scouting is not that much of a problem except on some map/match up in the early stage of the game (meaning before Lair). Marine SCV All-in, Thor drop on LT, 4(5) Gate, that's the kind of thing you need to scout, and you need to scout it before Lair.
5. You mistaking map awareness and scout. When I scout, I do it so that I know something about the ennemy position (army comp, tech choices, expands). Map awereness is to preventing me from being attacked without preparation. Creep tumor are very useful for that.
6. Everybody knows that, but that's the point of the discussion. Opponent need to a click you and you can get roflstomped if you fight in bad position, while winning in another position with the very same army composition. The problem is in the use of "roflstomped". How many times have I lost my entire army and actually killing nothing except a bunch of stalker ?
Zerg:
Nydus, ye definetely needs a buff, either cheaper or back to beta/alpha nydus. Still has its uses atm, but well, offensive drops are hardly possible vs smart players.
T3, well Ultraliskbuffs are needed (or some of his counteruntis are nerfed), Broods are fine as they are, even stronger/faster would be ridiculous..
Hydras.. well not really necessary, but nice to see i guess, maybe a speedupgrade for t2.5 (after infestor pit).
Oviespeed cheaper and T1, well one of them is okay but not both. I'd rather see Speed on T1 for 100/100. 50/50 might be too cheap.
Toss:
Reduce Sentry FF cap? I'd rather see Sentry who cant fit into a Warp Prism so that they can block of your main ramp and have an easy kill with your expos, because your units wont get there in time and you are trapped in your base.
Warping Units dont need to take more damage.
Terran:
Your change is pointless, half energy, half duration is the same as full energy and full duration, only you have to cooldown twice. which every player will do, especially early game when it matters.
Though thats what i'd like to see, my only problem i have with Zerg is that their T1 base scouting is bad.
I would be happy if they fix that + maps.
You wanna break the game ? lol
Ultra are fine and other races are fine too. Changing overlord speed, nydus and hydras a bit could be arguable.
I would propose myself only one little change: spire cost and production duration lower plz.
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On January 26 2011 00:21 TekKpriest wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 00:12 decaf wrote:
Here's what I think:
Zerg:
Buff Nydus
Buff Zerg T3
Buff Hydra
Make overlord speed cost 50/50 and T1
Toss:
Reduce Sentry FF cap to 3
Make warping in units take more damage (like 20%)
Terran:
Half the energy cost and duration of MULES
I don't think reintroducing the Lurker is a good idea, this is not bw. I'd like to see more useful Zerg spells though. Zerg: Nydus, ye definetely needs a buff, either cheaper or back to beta/alpha nydus. Still has its uses atm, but well, offensive drops are hardly possible vs smart players. T3, well Ultraliskbuffs are needed (or some of his counteruntis are nerfed), Broods are fine as they are, even stronger/faster would be ridiculous.. Hydras.. well not really necessary, but nice to see i guess, maybe a speedupgrade for t2.5 (after infestor pit). Oviespeed cheaper and T1, well one of them is okay but not both. I'd rather see Speed on T1 for 100/100. 50/50 might be too cheap. Toss: Reduce Sentry FF cap? I'd rather see Sentry who cant fit into a Warp Prism so that they can block of your main ramp and have an easy kill with your expos, because your units wont get there in time and you are trapped in your base. Warping Units dont need to take more damage. Terran: Your change is pointless, half energy, half duration is the same as full energy and full duration, only you have to cooldown twice. which every player will do, especially early game when it matters. Though thats what i'd like to see, my only problem i have with Zerg is that their T1 base scouting is bad. I would be happy if they fix that + maps.
Zerg Tier 3 is laughable right now. The hatch time of ultras is a joke and so is the whole unit. Broodlords can be good if they're a surprise.. and that's it.
Halfing the energy cost and duration of MULEs requires more apm to play that race, terran macro is too easy.
If warping in units would take more damage that would nerf the 4gate a bit, but I'm not entirely sure on that one.
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Seriously, Ultra are really good against Terran, and broodlord are really good against protoss (and terran if you don't consider the viking that outclass corruptor).
I will add that having overspeed in T1 is useless, cauz you already are short on gaz and need to get to Lair at some point to prevent some rushes. 50 gaz would delay Lair, or make you use 2 gaz which is less mineral. "Make Overspeed : Loose the game to Banshee".
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EPT
