EPTDoes zerg win and lose games the wrong way? - Page 10
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alepov
Netherlands1132 Posts
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Penecks
United States600 Posts
Not even because of all ins, sometimes there are simply indirect effects that pile up because of scouting denial. Say a terran has 1 rax and proxies another one near my base, which I scout and immediately use several larva cycles to create lings to defend against the imminent bunker/marine rush. But oops, he actually wasn't doing that at all and now has an expansion while his rax floats back to his base. I've now cut so many drones that early in the game that I'm pretty much going to lose against a competent player. Overlord speed upgrade being available at hatchery tech would make a world of difference. | ||
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Veritassong
Canada393 Posts
I think it is agreed by now that the space for mistake early game for Z and P are extremely narrow. Often times, literally misplacing an ff or making 2 more drones can cost you the game | ||
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flodeskum
Iceland1267 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On January 26 2011 01:41 jaeds wrote: i didn't say zerg IS op. i said if you play other races, you will feel like the races that you aren't playing as FEEL op. ie. if you play terran, you'll be 50x more likely to think zerg and protoss are op if you play zerg, you'll be 50x more likely to think terran and protoss are op if you play protoss, you'll be 50x more likely to think terran and zerg are op. this is simply because you notice the strengths of those playing against you so much more while they're winning without noticing the little things/risks they have to do to make it work. as far as citing GSL January as a determination for racial balance, that's just absurd. i think it's incredible that one of each race has won at least once in only 4 tournaments (this season terran is a forced win, as tvt). zerg has won twice, protoss once. if you want to cite GSL, cite all of it. the fact that zerg has won 2 times doesn't mean zerg is overpowered. just one race has had to win at least twice in 4 times. So what about those of us who play random and still feel zerg is UP comparitively? And god, stop quoting numbers from GSL when all of us have watched the individual games - zerg really do walk a tightrope. Dealing with a protoss deathball or a marine tank slow push composition is a very delicate thing, and one screwup, you lose your baneling ball or mutas against marine tank or w/e and you DIE. Screw up once against the colossus stalker ball or other things from protoss and you DIE. There's not room for error. You don't get a little bit behind from a small error, you get hugely behind. | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
Overlord speed upgrade being available at hatchery tech would make a world of difference. Really now? 100/100 in the early game? Are you sacrificing ling speed for it? Probably not. Are you sacrificing getting additional queens / lair tech (cost and time on the hatchery) for it? Probably not. What you're really asking for is having ovie speed for free. That's never going to happen, and truth be told, would be a huge & unfair advantage for Zerg early game. Constant, free scouting? 1-base all-ins would cease to become viable strategies against Zerg and there'd be no point in hiding tech anymore. | ||
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.Aar
2177 Posts
Zerg just feels so cheesy, economically speaking. You win by taking huge risks (droning), or you don't take risks, the other guy pulls ahead, and you just lose. I don't know about OP/UP but I just dislike the basic concept of the race. | ||
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NearPerfection
232 Posts
On January 25 2011 14:13 ckw wrote: Not only that but when people mention Muta as an equal to Banshee harass I want to kick myself in the head. First off, you don't get Muta harassed in the first 5 minutes of the game so it's in no way the same. Sure, Nydus Worms are cool but really, they aren't as effective in a real game as they are in theory craft. Baneling drops?... Effective but thats the only one you have a point with and even that isn't plausible until later in the game. BTW, the fact that Terrans mass Marines in every game against Zerg I don't see how Muta is such a problem... If Zerg masses hydra to protect from harass they get owned by anything and everything... Hence the reason Toss will open Phoenix and then switch to Collosus. Prime example of bad information coming from a bias source who probably hasn't played Zerg a day in their life. Seriously, how can someone afford Lair tech when a 4 gate is coming? It's impossible to get speed, spines and lair and then some how get roach burrow before the 4 gate hits, to think this is at all possible is way off base and stupid. I dont see any Zergs QQing here I see a bunch of Protoss and Terrans QQing with stupid reasons about how Zerg is fine. Some of the ideas for Zergs to try in this thread are literally r-e-t-a-r-d-e-d. I could say the exact same with Protoss, if you just played protoss you think it is really the underpowered. You're treating 4 gate as if its the same strategy over and over. The first thing you need to know is that there are different kinds of 4 gate, and each one of them requires a slightly different build order. Here are the different 4-Gates 2 Nexus Chronos, rest saved for Warp Gate, 1 gas, pure stalker/zealot (comes fastest) Double gas all chronos on Nexus except 2 on Warp Gate, Zealot/Sentry main composition (comes later) Double Gas, Sentry/Stalker (only effective on maps such as close spawn metalopolis) Single Gas 10 gate pulls probes off gas for faster 4 gate and pure zealot except for 2-4 stalkers. If you wan't i can post replays of all these different builds against NA's top players but i think you get my point. No I don't play Zerg but to play on my level you have to have advanced knowledge of the other races to adapt your own play. My Spine Crawler suggestion was for the most common 4 gate, the 1 gas Stalker/Zealot My Roach Burrow suggestion was against the Stalker/Sentry 2 gas 4 gate, 100/100 is not a game ending investment 8:16 minutes into the game. | ||
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Hollis
United States505 Posts
On January 26 2011 01:17 Zarahtra wrote: Another annoying point is, unless you have foxer rine micro, blings used well will be cost efficient. Let me restate this point. If you have foxer rine micro, blings will not be cost efficient. OR The intended zerg counter to mass marines can be marginalized by good micro. OR: At the highest level of play, zerg effectively loses the ability to adequately deal with the most common tvz build. Doesn't this fall under the very definition of imbalance? | ||
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samaNo4
Spain245 Posts
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On January 26 2011 04:35 Hollis wrote: Let me restate this point. If you have foxer rine micro, blings will not be cost efficient. OR The intended zerg counter to mass marines can be marginalized by good micro. OR: At the highest level of play, zerg effectively loses the ability to adequately deal with the most common tvz build. Doesn't this fall under the very definition of imbalance? As long as you view the game through the lens of "counters", you will never become a top level player. SC2 is not a game designed around "counters". Wc3 on the other hand... | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
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evoli
United States333 Posts
But most of the time I think that while I'm raging. The reality is, sometimes you just need to man up. Complaining about it won't make you a better player or make the other races stop doing what they're doing. I think the key is to just keep playing. If you love the game, you should want to try and figure these things out. Work on your shit until your play is solid. If Blizzard, down the line, decides to change things, good for them. You'll still be a player because you practice and practiced and practice. | ||
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Jeby
United States20 Posts
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okrane
France265 Posts
Only issue with Zerg in Starcraft II is that they are a poorly designed race Frankly Stacraft I zerg was so much better than this. So either an overhaul will get done with HotS and we can start talking then or Zerg will just die out. Until then have fun getting owned / watching zerg getting owned by all sort of increasingly creative early-game aggressive all-ins / timings. | ||
Aesop
Hungary11291 Posts
Nothing is imba. If you found something imba, it's most likely not. Find a counter. | ||
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