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Does zerg win and lose games the wrong way?

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avidday04
Profile Joined October 2010
United States63 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-25 04:01:25
January 24 2011 23:33 GMT
#1
[Preface]

I understand that every race is supposed to be different, it's what makes the game so entertaining to watch and fun play. However I do not feel like Zerg wins or loses games for the right reasons. I also understand that not every match, series, player, etc. are the same and things happen that can be used to counter statements I make later on so I'll tell you now, everything I say should be taken as a general statement. If I say something like, "Nobody uses Ghosts in TvZ", you can find a game where someone does use them and say, "AH HA! you are wrong!" But keeping in mind I'm speaking generally my statement still holds. If I say something like, "Jinro is the best Terran player in the world" You could say, "This guy I know, his name is Foxer..."(This is the guy that has insane marine vs. baneling micro in case you didn't know) My statement is still generally correct because while you may not consider him to be 'the best' you cannot deny he could definitely earn a nomination for the title. In fact, just to clear up any suspicion I'm biased toward hating non Zerg races, I honestly feel Jinro is possibly the overall best overall [not a typo] StarCraft 2 Players in the world.

[/preface]

I feel zerg wins/loses games the wrong way, let me Explain:

There is a tipping point in every game where one player gets so far ahead it would be nigh impossible to lose. In physics there is a principal that states that if an object's center of gravity moves beyond its base you get 'topple'. When speaking concerning Zerg the tipping point is so delicate it makes winning a tightrope walk, even a small breeze will blow you over and you'll lose the game. They have effectively zero stalling techniques when something goes wrong and no tech to fall back on. When Zerg smashes, say, a moderate Terran push oftentimes a siege tank and a bunker is all he needs to get right back into the game. Now if Terran smashes a Zerg attack they can immediately push to the Zerg base and will nearly always do fatal damage even if they are eventually repelled.

The next problem, along the same lines, is how Zerg units attack. Most of the Toss army and all of the Terran army has range; meanwhile the Zerg units that do have range are VERY weak or extremely short ranged and usually only shoot up or down. For instance take the way Toss can set up expos, it really sucks for ultras (and most other Zerg units) to have to kill a wall of pylons, then gateways, and then cannons to get to a nexus and mineral line. In the reverse situation Zerg's opponent might have to attack some spine crawlers, but with the range and bonus damage against armored these are rarely a problem.

Now lets talk about all-in's. Say a Toss 4 gates and you are finally able to hold it off and you even have an expansion up. At this point one single voidray can prevent you from attacking for a minimum of 150 seconds while lair is teched, a hydra den is made, and hydras walk their slow asses across the map, giving toss time to stabilize. While most of the time Protoss does lose after a failed 4 gate, recoveries are far from rare. If Zerg does a similar type of all-in and it fails, recoveries are almost unheard of. The closest tech Zerg has that can cause trouble for someone unprepared is roach burrow but it's effectiveness is marginal.

Zerg: "Haha, I've thwarted your tasteless banshee harass!"

Terran: "That's okay, I needed the Starport anyway"

Right now you may be thinking, "Well my win/loss ratio is almost 50%, obviously Zerg doesn't walk that much of a tightrope." My answer to this is simple, due to the matchmaking system if someone played a race that was much stronger than the others, they would be paired against MORE skilled opponents on a consistent basis since weaker players would be on even footing because of the race they play.

There is another thing that really adds to the 'topple' effect. Against certain strategies banelings are REQUIRED. We'll take the mass marine example for the sake of simplistically. First, the Zerg MUST spend gas to counter a mineral only army. Since Terran has, as Blizzard has stated (and that is obvious), the best mineral harvesting capabilities if Zerg doesn't spend their gas and use their banelings perfectly -on a repeated basis within the same game- the mass marine will wipe you out with ease. Marines are just too cost effective and the one time you fail to stop a push with banelings the marines will eat you up. It's also important to note that marine production is [laughably] faster than baneling production. Zerg cannot keep trading armies because Terran will pull ahead. Keep in mind I've not even mentioned tanks.


"According to my theory if you take a player of a certain skill level who plays Zerg, that same player will be rated higher if he were to play another race instead. Example: See LiquidTLO"


Another way of looking at all of this: Zerg does not rely so much on solid gameplay as it does their opponent making a massive mistake, or a long series of small ones (See preface). Along this same line of thought I feel, especially at a professional level, most Terrans don't use their race to the fullest. How many Terrans do you see abusing the utility of sensor towers? LiquidJinro comes to mind, but that's about it and even he doesn't use them to the fullest. What about the +2 building armor for Terran? I don't think I've ever seen that upgrade in a pro match or otherwise. Turret range increase upgrade? Another rare one and the list goes on. As for Protoss, how often do you see hallucinations? Sometimes but not near as much as you should. This is not to say Zerg doesn't have underused tactics because they do. Things like contaminate and nydus are terribly underused, but I don't believe these things are easily 'abusable' nor do they provide the same utility as the others in most situations.


Another very large issue is the way Zerg scouts. Do not misunderstand what I'm saying, Zergs map awareness is fantastic, but army and base scouting is definitely the worst out of the three races. Terran have scan and while it costs them ~270 minerals, it is available very early on and it is guaranteed to scout zergs entire base until lair tech (when generate creep becomes available). I've seen many games where an SCV fails to scout and without missing a beat a scan picks up the critical information the SCV failed to get such as the nydus network, roach warren, etc. The Protoss scouting early game is almost as bad as Zerg's except this is made up for once midgame hits where they have the best scouting in the game (especially after patch 1.2). Zerg is easily the most susceptible to secret tech early game from both of the other races and they have terrible scouting methods both early and late game, however this only realistically applies to the higher teir of players. First you have the overlord sac; this is largely negated by proper perimeter scouting of the opponent as both Toss and Terran T1 shoot up and kill ovies fast enough for them to miss critical information. So the Zerg is down 1 larva and 100 minerals for almost nothing. It's also worth noting that for only 50 minerals more Terran has a similar scout that has tons of hp AND flies faster; this scout is known as the barracks (in some cases an unneeded factory). Next up is the changeling and as stated before not viable at high levels (See Preface); the thing is spotted and killed very easily.


Unfortunately Zerg units just aren't cost effective in the vast majority of situations. I don't really know how to put this one into words but I will try. When a player gets a collosus (See Preface), it is always useful. When a player gets a thor, it's always a good thing. When a player gets an ultralisk, it is usually more damaging than good, even when fully upgraded but especially when it's not. When a non-Zerg gets a ground only attacking unit, it's damn good at it's job (See Tank, Maurader, Collosus, Zealot, etc.). When they get an air only attacking unit it, too, is damn good at its job. When they get ranged units they actually have RANGE. None of these things are true for Zerg units. Zerglings(unupgraded)do LESS dps than marines(unupgraded) and marines are ranged. You may be thinking, "Well you get double the dps for the same price with zerglings" but you have left out a few super important details! First, zerglings are kiteable. Secondly, the more ranged units you have the more efficient your army becomes, (varies depending on range of unit, DPS, and collision radius) whereas melee units have horrid diminishing returns on larger numbers. Even units that are supposed to have the most 'cost effective potential', namely splash damage units, are the most terrible in the game: The Baneling and the Ultralisk. The baneling is a SUICIDE unit, meaning that even if you do max damage you are guaranteed to lose resources. The other is the Ultralisk and it has a similar problem that the baneling has: It's only good at melee range, except there is one caveat...THING IS FRICKEN ENORMOUS! I admit this adds to the 'bad-ass' characteristic of the ultralisk and is personally my favorite unit, but this is not useful in battle unfortunately (although seeing an army of scary ultras may induce [unmerited]panic in your opponent, which could prove beneficial at times). Compared to the Toss and Terran splash units both of Zergs splash units are terrible. Terran's splashers, the tank and the thor (only air splasher in the game), does tons of damage per shot and has unbelievable range. The Toss splasher does plenty of damage itself but its pathing is unaffected my all units and most terrain.


I cannot even count how many times my equal cost Zerg army fights against Toss or Terran's army and gets vaporized while only scratching theirs. This can be obvserved by looking at the 'graphs' tab at the end of the match. Conversely I can only pull this off in very few, very specific instances such as muta/ling vs a nearly all zealot army. I could spend time on every unit but I think a sufficient amount has been said on the subject.

Zerg: "I cannot believe I'm going to lose because of hellion harass"

Terran: "Who said you need gas to GG a Zerg?"


Last but not least is the little problem known as 'The Blizzard Ladder Map Pool'. The fact that most of the maps available to play on (from Blizzard) are horribly in favor of Zergs opponent and the abusable map features, coupled with many things earlier stated, make playing on many maps a nightmare. (Keep in mind Zerg nightmares involve buttered biscuits and gear in their rear; yeah, not good...) Playing a Terran on Lost Temple and winning, for instance, involves guessing weather or not a tank/thor drop on the high ground is coming (as stated earlier it's effectively impossible to scout), not getting close positions, him making at least one major mistake or several small ones, and you playing at the top of your game. (See Preface)


In conclusion, it's not at all impossible for Zerg to win a game, they just tend to win games in a way that doesn't feel satisfying. At the same time I very rarely lose a game and think, "Wow I was definitely outclassed here." In fact i usually feel the opposite. I'll lose to players that just flat out play like garbage. They'll do stuff like land a Command Center at a base and mine it out without touching the destructible rocks that are in the way or I'll watch the replay and I'm intensely microing a battle that the other player didn't even notice was happening and his equal cost army demolishes me. I want the game to feel like I definitely outclassed my opponent when I win outright or he definitely outclassed me when I lose outright. Or in the case of even skill I want games where it's neck and neck, back and forth, and one of us slowly edges closer and closer to victory where the other player always has a chance to turn the tide with a good play. Also, please understand that I've only skimmed the surface, there are many more problems and much more details that can be discussed and this is only meant to be a general outline.

About me: I am a Zerg player with very near 2,000 games played since release (Kerrigan, here I come!), I watch almost every GSL match and Day[9] daily, and I'm a high diamond that should be in masters shortly as right now I'm making and testing new builds and timings (Like Day[9] says, "You can 4-gate to the top of ladder, but you wont get any better at the game). I'm not a pro by any means but I still feel like my opinion carries some value.


Thank you for reading, please comment and tell me what you think! ^_^


tl;dr
Losing a game simply because you literally cannot scout your opponent is the wrong way to lose.

Winning because you correctly blind countered your opponents strategy is the wrong way to win.

Losing the game because your opponent made ten minor mistakes and you only made one is the wrong way to lose.

Winning because your opponent made a massive mistake is the wrong way to win.

Losing because your opponent has less ability/skill but plays a stronger race is the wrong way to lose.

Winning the game because your opponent fell asleep from of how boring/easy it is to beat you is not the right way to win.

Losing because you got close spawns on a map is the wrong way to lose.

Winning because RootDrewbie let his kid sister play his account is the wrong way to win.

Losing because of horrible map design/balance is the wrong way to lose.

Winning because you are the better player or losing because you are the inferior one is how things should be and hopefully, through game evolution or balance patches or both, this can be achieved.


Edit: Horrendous, repetitive spelling errors corrected. Thanks AngryMynock ^_^ Damn that spellchecker!
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
January 24 2011 23:40 GMT
#2
Wouldn't "buff my race" get the same message across?
ktgster
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada70 Posts
January 24 2011 23:49 GMT
#3
I agree with you as a toss player. There are so many ways for a BO loss for zerg. Zerg players really need to play at perfection atm.
"Sick Handsome Nerd Baller"
avidday04
Profile Joined October 2010
United States63 Posts
January 24 2011 23:50 GMT
#4
On January 25 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:
Wouldn't "buff my race" get the same message across?


No it wouldn't, not if something has to be done on Blizzards end. The only way to effect change is to make well thought out reasonable argument, otherwise you just sound like you are whining.
gogogadgetflow
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2583 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-25 17:12:00
January 24 2011 23:53 GMT
#5
Less QQ more pew pew

User was warned for this post

Right it's obvious that zergs have to be much better than other races to compete at diamond, masters, and the gsl. Bullshit. This is just another long-winded beat-around-the-bush buff zerg post - utterly worthless.
freestalker
Profile Joined March 2010
469 Posts
January 24 2011 23:53 GMT
#6
nice post, sadly it will probably be bashed to ground anytime soon. However, it also explains the frustration people get while playing zerg, while not when playing other races (I'm not the only one with this feeling, there's been some other thread). Winning when enemy plays terribad is not satisfying, losing when enemy plays terribad is just frustrating. Ah well. Always choosing the hard path
Bearrorist
Profile Joined November 2010
United States26 Posts
January 24 2011 23:57 GMT
#7
Bagi, I would say the difference is, besides the end of the post he provided an actual argument.

This elevates the credibility of his complaint rather than being like "OMG T IS OP" or something of the sort.

As a Zerg player I feel similarly a lot of times.. and I think he expressed all of the frustration quite well.
KomodoKlams
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7 Posts
January 24 2011 23:57 GMT
#8
On January 25 2011 08:53 gogogadgetflow wrote:
Less QQ more pew pew


In the case of zerg, Less QQ more nom nom.
For the swarm!
DesuBear
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada4 Posts
January 24 2011 23:57 GMT
#9
I can see where you're getting at but Zerg have the dimension of larva instead of unit producing structures. Zergs can very easily lose a game by overdroning (it happens to everyone at some point) and can be quite annoying.
Saying "buff my race" doesn't get blizzard anywhere; Buffing/nerfing the right units is what makes a balanced game.
~Desu ~Desu ~Desu ~Yes im Canadian ~Desu ~Yes I'm not Korean
TekKpriest
Profile Joined March 2010
308 Posts
January 24 2011 23:57 GMT
#10
It has some good arguments,

but some of em are bad too.

All in all a good post, and i can share your point on some ends.
A Man chooses, a slave obeys
Akuemon
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada151 Posts
January 24 2011 23:59 GMT
#11
Good read. put a lot of effort into this one ^^. I especially agree on the topple effect, a protoss/terran on 4 base is usually gg for the zerg no matter what, but a zerg on 6 base can still lose easily because of the strength of 200/200 army.
And hidden tech is so hard ESPECIALLY when they bottom of the ramp wall off, making it impossible to scout. so many things need so many different responses (in ZvT at least) that scouting is crucial, and its impossible to scout if they just have something at the bottom of there ramp.

Why do people bash such well constructed opinions with stupid one-liners? >.>
Competent
Profile Joined April 2010
United States406 Posts
January 24 2011 23:59 GMT
#12
All that room to try and explain something and you still make no sense. This simply looks like a post that is about 3000 characters too long to say zerg is UP.

So what I am going to boil this down to is, if you do not want responses like this, stop beating around the bush that you want buffs rather than just saying you think T or P is OP.
Nurrrhhh, I'm gonna be A+ by Wendsday! -Day[9] "I'm going to spread out my lings so it looks like there is more. Lots of animals do that." -CatZ
albis
Profile Joined January 2010
United States652 Posts
January 24 2011 23:59 GMT
#13
all your reasons are why i like playing zerg. walking that tightrope of defending harras and stuggling for a 3rd is the fun. i agree with your bling statement though. its alot of gas to try and live through a mineral only marine terran, that can kite.
every punch is thrown with bad intentions with the speed of a devil
I_Love_Bacon
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5765 Posts
January 25 2011 00:01 GMT
#14
Read the entire post and have somewhat similar feelings... but am not worried. I used to care about balance more, but I honestly think improving the map pool and very minor tweaks here or there are all that is needed to actually "balance" the game out. Perhaps zerg will be forced to remain reactionary as a race, but that doesn't mean anything will be broken. While I think the balance of the game should be obvious to everybody at the moment, I don't actually think harping out the same points does much good. People who want to believe their is balance or imbalance wont change their mind easily and it only leads to stupid comments from both sides like "less QQ more pewpew."

I'll cross my fingers this thread wont go into the shitter, but I wont hold my breath.
" i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-25 00:02:40
January 25 2011 00:01 GMT
#15
On January 25 2011 08:57 Bearrorist wrote:
Bagi, I would say the difference is, besides the end of the post he provided an actual argument.

This elevates the credibility of his complaint rather than being like "OMG T IS OP" or something of the sort.

As a Zerg player I feel similarly a lot of times.. and I think he expressed all of the frustration quite well.

People like Idra can really pinpoint where the zerg race is having trouble. This felt like 5 pages of nonsensical rambling filled with assumptions and anecdotal evidence, picking at weaknesses that may or may not exist within the race. All topped off with pretentious writing and a sense of entitlement that the OP is actually better than the people he loses to.

I get it, some zergs are frustrated... But come on.
supersoft
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany3729 Posts
January 25 2011 00:03 GMT
#16
On January 25 2011 08:53 gogogadgetflow wrote:
Less QQ more pew pew


yoep, especially in the lower leagues (not master) it's just not the case, that zerg loses to terran if the players are equally skiled.

fun fact: 46,7% win ratio in TvZ in the GSL :-D
freestalker
Profile Joined March 2010
469 Posts
January 25 2011 00:05 GMT
#17
On January 25 2011 08:59 Akuemon wrote:
Good read. put a lot of effort into this one ^^. I especially agree on the topple effect, a protoss/terran on 4 base is usually gg for the zerg no matter what, but a zerg on 6 base can still lose easily because of the strength of 200/200 army.
And hidden tech is so hard ESPECIALLY when they bottom of the ramp wall off, making it impossible to scout. so many things need so many different responses (in ZvT at least) that scouting is crucial, and its impossible to scout if they just have something at the bottom of there ramp.

Why do people bash such well constructed opinions with stupid one-liners? >.>

Well another point is 'hidden tech' is often quite pointless, because in contrary to T or P, 1-3 units of some type alone won't win you the game. It's not like.. 3 burrowed moving roaches win a game, or 3 infestors alone, or 3 hydras, or 3 broodlords, or whatever.

Banshees, void rays, dts can ruin the day quite easily even in small numbers.

I think balance is okayish, it just really feels frustrating when you compare the effort you put into your game and then you get steamrolled by some guy that doesn't scout, one bases and makes a push just at the moment when you start building next batch of drones using up your larva and are 2-4 supply from being capped etc etc
Angra
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2652 Posts
January 25 2011 00:06 GMT
#18
I only skimmed through the OP but, that "tightrope" effect is the entire game of SC2, not just Zerg.

In SC2 you need UNITS to stay alive, because there is absolutely no defender's advantage. There's no high ground, there's no units that can be used defensively (reavers, good psi storm, spider mines, lurkers, defilers, for example), and you can fit your whole 200/200 army through a choke point or ramp in 2 seconds rather than several more.

The bottom line is, no matter what race you are, 99% of the time if your opponent has more units than you, you are going to automatically lose if either one of you engages, and end up losing the game because of it. And if that is what you were going for in the OP, then yes I agree with you that it's ridiculous.
densha
Profile Joined December 2010
United States797 Posts
January 25 2011 00:09 GMT
#19
I would disagree that winning as Zerg is largely unsatisfying. If you have a terrible opponent that happens to harass or all in well and you manage to barely hang on and come out with a win, it feels good in that moment. Of course you go back to the replay and discover that "wow, this guy was bad..." and suddenly those intense feelings you had during the game seem almost silly.

I have had some unrewarding wins, but I think that's basically because I like to be calm and focused during a ladder session and being elated at a 'standard' win isn't helpful and may make you take losses harder. Sometimes, though, you just win so easily against a passive two basing opponent that there's just no reason to celebrate except you macro'd well for 15 minutes.

Anyway, about the rest of your post, I agree in general. I still have losses due to difficulties in scouting, etc., but I try to correct that for my next game. I specifically have troubles against close position LT. You send that first OL in exactly the wrong direction, so it's way out of position by the time you scout with a drone, and often I will simply forget to move that OL across the map in time to scout. So I simply change my OL scout pattern: instead of leaving that OL in an empty main or moving it to the corner of the map (where I'll forget about it and not move it soon enough), I just move it to the center of the map over some high ground.

Is that a perfect solution? Of course not, but it's something I can do now to make me play and react better.

I think as Zerg players we have to be able to read our opponent at the ramp since our OLs won't always get the info we need. We have to read the opposing army's composition and decide what it means, we have to figure out what the buildings at the ramp wall-in mean, etc. Sometimes we do have to blindly build units and structures and sometimes we'll lose because of that, but if that early mid-game scouting was much better, Zerg really might be OP because of our strong counter capability.

Overall, I think looking at the races too closely on paper makes Zerg seem really weak and almost impossible to play, but such is the magic of StarCraft that it actually somehow works out in-game. There MAY be some minor issues at pro-level play, but those issues will be ironed out in time. I don't expect that the overall concept of Zerg will change, though, so do what you can to get better, scout better, and read opponents better.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.
Piretes
Profile Joined April 2008
Netherlands218 Posts
January 25 2011 00:09 GMT
#20
I think alot of the frustation zerg players feel comes from the fact they have no units that can win the game outright before hive tech. Protoss has strong units that require a prepared zerg - voidrays, blink stalkers, dts.. Terran has strong openings that can deal alot of damage for minimal risk - 2 rax marines, hellion harass, banshees.. Zerg does feel weak when having to be prepared for so much with so little options.

When the game progresses, however, a good zerg can be very hard to beat. If harass proves largely unsucessful, if you mismicro just one attack, if you lose an expansion to banelings - zerg will just roll over you. Zerg has alot of options to show skill and win the game with smart plays in the midgame.
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