Does zerg win and lose games the wrong way? - Page 7

Blackk

South Africa226 Posts

January 25 2011 10:08 GMT

#121

Well it's amusing cause when reapers got nerfed zergs would laugh and say "well it's time for you to adapt to this". Now that terran has adapted they are whinging again.. There weill come a time when nobody will even care any more.

@Cerpher: 1)If the other races didnt wall they'd die in the first 3 min, so doing anythhing to walls would require significantly buffing the other races. 2) Queen is a T1 unit. 3) You cna just leave overlords in your base to avoid hunting.

In any case I believe that zergs should just calm down because they are gonna get buffed anyways.

raaaiiiii

United States89 Posts

January 25 2011 10:14 GMT

#122

As a zerg player, I think all zerg really needs is a little bit of help in the early game to defend. What I would really love to see is the burrow ability available a lot earlier in the game. It only seems to be used in conjunction with roaches right now, and occasionally banelings, but an earlier burrow would allow zerg to hide lings/banes/roaches to defend a bit easier (the roach hp regen might have to be altered... maybe take effect after the lair is evolved). It would also make attacking zerg early on, without detection, more dangerous.

lagbzz

Poland171 Posts

January 25 2011 10:16 GMT

#123

Yeah it all looks horrible in theory, but play some games and you'll see that it's not that bad, it's actually ok.

You must avoid too much theory in SC. Sometimes it doesn't work, even with perfect argumentation.

REDBLUEGREEN

Germany1903 Posts

January 25 2011 10:19 GMT

#124

On January 25 2011 19:07 Whomp wrote:
I just want larger maps thats all i ask for... after that give it some time to determine tweaking, I'm okay if my race is difficult and at TOP200 it sure is but i feel its because of reaction and open spaces. Flanking means shit on a map like xel naga where every 5 feet is a choke, it's literally a gamble on whether to drone or not on any close position vs a good player.

I agree bigger map and faster ovis or ovi speed t1 would fix all those frustrating losses. Like OP said zerg units aren't as cost efficent as the other races. To work around that zerg needs to drone up and get a better eco but on smaller maps that is very dangerous because like someone stated earlier there is no defenders advantage like high ground etc, and droning up obviously means less units. Faster ovis are needed to make the early game less of a gamble. It's frustrating when the terran feels like a genius because zerg thought banshees were coming when in fact blue flame hellions are coming, but there is just no way to tell the difference if the terran has some marines patrolling his base.

TENTHST

United States204 Posts

January 25 2011 10:28 GMT

#125

great post. agree fully.

Butcherski

Poland446 Posts

January 25 2011 11:16 GMT

#126

I dont know if this has been posted already - if anything this should be in the OP :D

[image loading]

Bellygareth

France512 Posts

January 25 2011 11:23 GMT

#127

I think most of the frustration comes from the fact that Zerg doesn't have any gimmick build and is a bit too much reactive.

Toss and Terran have a strict game plan against Z most of the time which will most of the time involve a powerfull gimmicky push.
For instance for T: 2 rax marine into scv allin. Banshee/helion rush...;
For instance for P: 3gate stargate, 4/5 gate, expand into 6 gate,...

Their mindset is : I'll do that and if I manage my build and army well I should win.
In the Zerg mindset it's always reactive (if you're not 6 pooling all game), the mindset is :
- Oh god they can do this this this this and this, they're going what? Is that a 4 gate, did I see a stargate, what is that stargate building VR,Phoenix? And prepare for the push.
The terrible thing is, that if the push doesn't come the zerg puts himself behind a lot. And if the scouting wasn't perfect and the reaction not perfect, the zerg can lose right there.

It gives the impression of hopelessness as a zerg because you're always defending, even if there's nothing coming, you're still defending. I feel the other races have more of an "I'm going to f... him up" mindset which is more rewarding.

NeoR

Norway24 Posts

January 25 2011 11:25 GMT

#128

IMO, Zerg is a harder race to do "ok" with. It is much more desicionmaking early on, and has no "cheese" like 4gate or 3rax that can get them to gold league or even platinum fast. But at higher levels, zerg is pretty balanced.

Edit:

On January 25 2011 20:16 Butcherski wrote:
I dont know if this has been posted already - if anything this should be in the OP :D

[image loading]

I loled

Koshi

Belgium38799 Posts

January 25 2011 11:29 GMT

#129

1) Zerg cannot defend their ramps as cost effective against P/T.
2) Zerg cannot attack enemy ramps as cost effective against P/T.

Overlord drop should become cheaper OR ramps should become bigger. Especially on maps with easy naturals like JB.

JeBi

United States44 Posts

January 25 2011 11:44 GMT

#130

1) Overlord speed should be a hatchery level upgrade, and perhaps 75m 75g (no pooping creep till lair still tho)
2) Marine rate of fire needs to be lowered just a tad, but DPS should be kept the same. That way they can't kite so damn easily, rendering melee units all but useless.

just my 2 cents :D

IAmSpooner

Sweden111 Posts

January 25 2011 11:55 GMT

#131

When I play zerg I always feel that our early game is awful. The margin between a successful and unsuccessful defense against a timing attack or all-in is minimal. Even when I'm watching professional players it's hard to predict whether the zerg will be able defend against a timing attack or all-in (even if it's been scouted).

Edit: On a similar but different note, isn't it time maps are designed with the existence of force fields in mind? It's ridiculous that force fielding a ramp bears no risk since it's right next to the natural (i.e. you don't really need to engage his defenses because it's right there when you walk in anyway).

Steel

Japan2283 Posts

January 25 2011 12:03 GMT

#132

On January 25 2011 09:50 Pandain wrote:
In response to the OP:
1.Part of what you are saying I feel is wrong. For example, you say "I can't scout" but alot of times you can. Overlord positioning is an art in itself, and you always have to be constantly scouting in order to adjust your army. Keep in mind that zerg is reactive/adaptive, not proactive.

Well we can't really scout the one base plays/all-ins since people discovered they have ranged units and overlords are so slow that if they position their pylon/depots along the sides they will see it coming very fast and kill it before it get any info, at all. Okay so I used two overlords on both sides. It's a four gate. Did you ever try to get enough units in time when your two overlords down? It's big cost for some information.

Gigadrill

Australia52 Posts

January 25 2011 12:05 GMT

#133

I think a lot of zerg players realise that they are playing what people believe to be the "weak" race and like to exaggerate the actual difficulty of playing the race.

Honestly, half the posts about zerg on TL just say that it's incredibly hard to play zerg only after making sure everyone knows they are a zerg player. In my time on this forum (which I admit is not exceptionally long) I have never seen a serious or non-trolly post from another race saying that they are easily rolling through zerg because of the zerg making some miniscule mistake.

In regards to having no strong units before hive tech; muta, ling and baneling is one of the most common unit compositions used by zerg and none of those units require hive tech or even need hive tech to get upgrades.

Dexxy

Sweden45 Posts

January 25 2011 12:12 GMT

#134

I read through the whole post and I completly agree on everything.
It really doesn't feel viable for me as a Zerg player in ZVP to be forced to sacrifice an overlord every 3-4 minutes just to see what techswitches the Protoss is doing. ZvT is not really as bad, but most times it really feels like you have to outmacro the Terran way better then what the terran have to outmacro you in order to win.
Also, combined with that, it is really hard to know when to macro and when to go units when facing a terran. He can do a fast expand, which forces me to take my second expo as fast as possible just to be able to keep up in economy. This is when he barely saturates his expo and does a timing push. If I don't scout this (Often with my overlords, which will probably die and supplyblock me.) I die instantly.

Not sure if my views are shared with pro players, but as a ~1600 Diamond player, this is what I feel.

nvrs

Greece481 Posts

January 25 2011 12:17 GMT

#135

Well, i am a pretty bad player myself but i ll put my 2c into this. I was at low diamond as Zerg and got demoted when i switched to Terran. After having spent the same time with both races i'd say that as somene else put it, it's the nature of the game to punish really hard any small mistake when your playing versus any other but a complete noob player. For example you mention that a Terran can come back due to the races good defending nature after a failed attack but i ensure you that you can auto-loose if you fail to make any damage at a FE Zerg, or delay a bit the initial push.

Hetz

196 Posts

January 25 2011 12:17 GMT

#136

I won't commend on anything specific, but I'm very glad we see threads like these more frequent. In the past nobody dared to say 'UP' and even when they did every T&P player would instantly go 'QQ'.

Its good to have these discussions since imo Zerg is totally broken. It sucks if we aren't allowed to express our frustration about this. T has never ever had such problems to think about and P is steadily going stronger either. I think every SC2 player needs to care that Zerg is falling behind.

Jono7272

United Kingdom6330 Posts

January 25 2011 12:28 GMT

#137

I take it NesTea must be a ridiculous amount more skilled than other GSL players then? This doesn't sit right with me. I can see Zerg has some weaknesses at the moment, but to say you're losing even though you're more skilled than the opponent but don't play the stronger of the races is far too ambiguous.

IAmSpooner

Sweden111 Posts

January 25 2011 12:33 GMT

#138

On January 25 2011 21:05 Gigadrill wrote:
I think a lot of zerg players realise that they are playing what people believe to be the "weak" race and like to exaggerate the actual difficulty of playing the race.

Honestly, half the posts about zerg on TL just say that it's incredibly hard to play zerg only after making sure everyone knows they are a zerg player. In my time on this forum (which I admit is not exceptionally long) I have never seen a serious or non-trolly post from another race saying that they are easily rolling through zerg because of the zerg making some miniscule mistake.

In regards to having no strong units before hive tech; muta, ling and baneling is one of the most common unit compositions used by zerg and none of those units require hive tech or even need hive tech to get upgrades.

You're right, but it's a mistake to assume that the discussions is irreleveant because of this. It's not that difficult to separate the posts with thought out concerns from those that don't.

Morphs

Netherlands645 Posts

January 25 2011 12:36 GMT

#139

I have to say, playing mainly Zerg and some Terran on the side, there is definitely a LOT of difference. As far as polishment goes, Terran feels finished in the sense that there is a lot of synergy between units and strats. Zerg seems to have all these kinds of loose ends that can't be tied together. Units that just don't feel cool to use, like the corruptor, which is now almost only used as anti-collossus unit..

And indeed, as a Terran you can completely miss a battle for some reason and win it while your opponent was actually microing that battle, that's crazy! Maybe it has to do something with units getting clumped up more, but a Zerg army dies really fast. Currenly, only roaches feel like a strong unit (in large numbers). Speedlings are fine and banelings have some use.

Of course Terran has weaknesses. Terran fears the speed of Zerg mostly. But fortunately that would mean for Zerg to be the agressor and Zerg is the reactor.

The main problem is this: The agressor almost always has an advantage. He decides when to strike and where to strike. Furthermore during the attack the defender may loose important structures while the agressor is free from that risk and can tech/expand/build army uncontested.

Slunk

Germany768 Posts

January 25 2011 12:42 GMT

#140

On January 25 2011 20:44 JeBi wrote:
1) Overlord speed should be a hatchery level upgrade, and perhaps 75m 75g (no pooping creep till lair still tho)

This sould have been tested on PTR not just random shit they came up with. Just this little tweak could help sooo much.

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