On December 15 2010 11:01 LittleeD wrote:
Blizzard must've had reasons to remove it.
Maybe they wanted the game to be more micro agressive and intensive?

WarCraft 3 in Space FTW ???

Elefanto

Switzerland3584 Posts

December 15 2010 02:56 GMT

#22

On December 15 2010 11:48 Niji87 wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is that BW didn't have defenders advantage like you probably think it did. It was a game that revolved heavily around being passive-aggressive and aggressive. End of story. No one wins BW by turtling without providing an overt threat. BW's "defenders advantage" only applied in the passive-aggressive state.

Yeah, Sum Siege Tanks on Highground protected by mine fields were no defenders advantage.

2 Reaver surrounded by 3 cannons and a shield battery on a choke point was no defenders advantage and could kill like 15 hydras or more?

Just 2 examples : |

~GhoSt

145 Posts

December 15 2010 02:59 GMT

#23

I personally would not like the return of the % to miss attacking up a hill. What if Blizzard makes a map like Heartbreak Ridge, or a map with large wide hills where a terran tank crawl would hurt like all heck.

However I do agree with how someone said that the economic collection rate should be fixed, or at least less mineral patches per base/expansion like someone noted. One base play is just too strong at the moment, so of course you'll have players that will want to engage in a push sooner than that in BW, where early game it was mostly harassment in multiple venues. In BW defending was more economical than attacking (take out the talk about shooting up hill for a sec). That's why players in BW could set up a sim city defense and hold off early pressure, except in zvz lol. But, then again, macroing skill isn't as intensive as it was back in BW, so at least you could focus more in the battle in SC2.

dcberkeley

Canada844 Posts

December 15 2010 03:00 GMT

#24

Are you serious? Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Of course you can't turtle and win, you can't do that in any RTS. It's obviously a greater advantage in SC1 over SC2 and the thread's not about aggressive or passive strategies, it's about the differences that made SC1 a more macro-oriented game.

I want 54.6% macro games, 30.1% cheese games, 1.4% worker rush games, 0.6% DT rush games and 100% games where zerg whines that their 14 hatch just got destroyed.

On December 15 2010 11:56 Elefanto wrote:

Show nested quote +

This basically. And just to refute your argument that you can't turtle up and win, (T)

Flash.

dhe95

United States1213 Posts

December 15 2010 03:05 GMT

#25

The reason why we aren't seeing macro games is because of the maps. Early BW there weren't that many macro games, and as the maps started changing (naturals started to have gas, more expansions, larger maps), we saw macro games.

Techno

1900 Posts

December 15 2010 03:09 GMT

#26

On December 15 2010 11:16 Kennigit wrote:
Wtf are these arbitrary percentages...bad thread 0_0

Bad thread because of one post? Steer us in the proper direction......

I dont hate cheese games. Early rushes need to be a threat to greedy players. Also, I love games where it looks like a certain player will lose but they hold and it turns into a long back and forth battle. I think bigger maps are better for this.

Niji87

United States112 Posts

December 15 2010 03:11 GMT

#27

On December 15 2010 11:56 Elefanto wrote:

Show nested quote +

They are not good examples. Your opponent will expand and tech or mass up and take map control while you waste your money sitting in your base. The Reaver/Cannon/Battery example is absolutely horrible. That's like the most desperate thing you can possibly do and there's no reason for an opponent to attack you directly if you're that desperate to defend your choke. Reavers trapped at your choke defending are Reavers wasted.

In the case of Siege Tanks+Mines, they make a poor defense if you don't turn them into overt threats such as minefields on key map locations, contains, or slow pushes. Simply making a bunch of Tanks/Mines in your base will get you rolled by Muta or Carrier. It's your job to stop them from gettng Muta/Carrier or other such units.

When you use your abilities to generate overt threat you are not defending, you are being passive-aggressive. Taking an expansion is not a defensive move, for example. It's a passive-aggressive move. It threatens your opponent. Aggressive minefields and tank placement are not a defense meant to keep you from losing the lead, they are an offense meant to keep your opponent from being able to take the lead.

As for what made SC1 more macro oriented. It's simply the maps. It favored passive aggressive play more than aggressive play. I said this in my previous post.

EDIT: Flash does not just turtle up and win. Watch him play more. If he just turtled up and won, you'd see everyone doing it.

Aegeis

United States1619 Posts

December 15 2010 03:17 GMT

#28

Honestly all I want are great games that don't revolve 4 min micro wars

REDBLUEGREEN

Germany1904 Posts

December 15 2010 03:18 GMT

#29

I don't like the new highground mechanics either. After the early game the high ground advantage is very minor and positional play never revolves around high grounds. Having some chance in a game is not a bad thing either.

Dethant

United States16 Posts

December 15 2010 03:18 GMT

#30

I like how SC2 rewards the ballsy agressive type of plays,
\
and I respect the cheese. theres so many delicious varieties, all of which are fun to watch IMO
there even fun to play against if you keep your eyes open, i love fighting off cannon contains with seige tanks or protecting one marine with 11 sCvs from some 7 or 8 pool attack, and if i lose, thats okay, i was outplayed, simple enough. especialy since a cheese can hurt the cheeser more than you if you keep your head up.

i love all the unique and crazy plays in SC, if we didnt have them the game would be far more boring, like halo wars. lol.

rackdude

United States882 Posts

December 15 2010 03:20 GMT

#31

On December 15 2010 12:00 dcberkeley wrote:
This basically. And just to refute your argument that you can't turtle up and win, (T)

Flash.

Umm... TvZ? Sorry, but we really need to stop making threads about how you don't like a few things, bring up BW, have tons of misinformation about BW come in, turn into a whine thread, etc.

As I said earlier, there are defensive advantages in SC2, they are just different. Forcefield, queens, and free bunkers. Lets learn to use those more.