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So, I have unfortunately not saved my replays in which in both games I've lossed to mass roaches. =S I tried playing more games to come up against a zerg and then lose horribly.
Basically, I've tried sentry + stalkers, and they definitely don't do the job. With the new buff (seriously, I think roach range should be 3.25 - 3.5), roaches can kill about all types of gateway units too easily. Of course, against stalkers, roaches already outlast stalkers (with the 4 range, you can't hold+move micro as well, especially when there isn't that much room to run).
Now, I know that most people get immortals, but it seems like zerg can pump out a lot more roaches than my immortals can handle. Basically, if the zerg player masses roaches, it seems like there's no way to win. Mathematically, it shouldn't because for 75 minerals and 25 gas, roaches are so much better than stalkers at 125 minerals and 50 gas.
Basically, a roach should be roughly 60% as good as a stalker based on cost, but yet, with the patch, it's so much better.
Any tips? I think there really isn't any until Blizzards starts balancing properly again. I don't like how Protoss has to tech to beat a tier 1.5 unit for both Terran and Zerg.
User was warned for this post
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Roaches have to treated like Marauders now, you wouldn't attack a Terran player with gateway units if he has marauders would you? No, you would camp at a choke (preferably expansion choke like LT). However the difference is Zealot is actually good against Marauder, but because of Roach armor, increased range, and high hp, zealots seem to really suck hard and be a waste of minerals. your best bet is to hide the best you can with alot of stalker/sentry at a choke, and try your best to keep your sentry from dying to the roaches (sentry only has 5 range and will want to be in front of stalker) because you need the forcefields to keep the roaches from running up and just 1from every roach decimated 75% of your army, then you need to decide to tech to blink stalker or Immortal, personally i think blink stalker in this situation is better if you have good micro because 150/150 + 150/150 will set you back alot less than 200/100 + 250/100, because you can use the extra minerals to put up more units that you desperately need or more cannons.
I too am hoping for a patch because i didn't sign on to toss to be mr pussy until i can get units that actually work lololol
I would suggest cannons but to be honest, roaches do really well against cannons and the only way you'll have enough cannons (1 cannon per 2 roach) to deal with the roach is if you forge fast expanded in the first place which is highly unlikely. Best of luck on ladder, i definately have played MUCH less ladder games this patch.
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responding to mass [one unit] with massing [another unit] shouldnt be a valid response. try mixing it up. i find zealot+stalker+immortal do well against mass roaches. someimtes good to throw in some air power too.
that being said i lost a game when i was paying attention and these 5 roaches walked up my ramp cos i didnt expect it xD
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Yeah, immortals get out paced, you can't get enough immortals unless you go double robo but Zerg is going to instantly tech switch to muta when you do and your Immortals/current-tech-path is worthless.
My advice Fast expand (3gate, 2gate Forge, FFE, 15Nexus), then go to x2 Stargate phoenix (you can go single, but I like x2). You can hold off early roach pressure with cannons/stalkers/sentry/Zealot then once Phoenixes come out, Zerg is pretty much forced to tech switch to Hydra or muta, otherwise you can just go around killing overlords/queens. Surprisingly, phoenixes do very well against roaches, if you think there is going to be a counter attack then save energy and rush back home when he does. FF + Lift on roaches should give you an easy defense.
When you get around 2-4 Phoenixes (4 if x2 stargate, 2 if x1 stargate), you can throw down a robo and tech to colossus and still build gateway/Phoenixes at the same time off your fast expansion.
TL;DR: Fast expand and use Phoenixes to force hydra/muta tech
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Well, the no replay thing makes baby Boxer cry. Try to lose convincingly to a zerg again and save your replay. Also, what skillrange are we talking about ... When is this push?
Stalkers + sentries can do a lot of damage when properly microed. the forcefields make a difference like you wouldn't believe, coupled with their shield reducing damage drastically. It's all about positioning. And roaches are really prone to spazzing out when faced with a wellplaced FF.
If this discussion is allowed to go further, immortals are very good versus roaches, of course when backed up with whatever units you can muster. If this is a 5RR or a 7RR we are talking about, just think back to the early days of beta where P needed to find a way to build an immortal in the first 5 seconds of the game to survive. Oh how I long for those days...
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To the above strategy with the 2 stargate phoenix, you should be aware that you will still be vulnerable to roach because the purpose of the strategy is to prevent zergs 3rd from overpowering you by hurting their economy hard with mass supply blocks and queen deaths, it's best to 5 gate after the 2 stargate phoenix so that if he roach all ins you while getting owned by phoenix (very likely) you can warp in a ton of stalker and bring your phoenix back to graivton beam the whole front line of roach for stalkers to kill. (this can be seen in GSL 2 TSL_BabyByeBye vs PhoenixWerra)
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Stalkers:
In my impression, the stalker alone is a really weak unit in terms of damage output/hp/cost. The bonus damage against armored units means that the stalker shouldn't be great against marines, mutalisks, and the like, but even roaches beat stalkers _easily_ for cost, while marauders just destroy stalkers.
The largest problem, though, is how terribly the stalker scales with upgrades. +1 damage for each upgrade is just ridiculous with 14 unupgraded damage against armored... well, my point is, just don't get a lot of stalkers against zerg unless you need to (e.g. requiring quickly built defense against mutalisks).
Immortals:
Fun fact: one immortal costs almost as much as four roaches, but will just barely beat them. Two immortals cost almost as much as eight roaches, but if the roaches use focus fire, two immortals will NOT be able to kill eight roaches. This means, in one-on-one situations and if not able to use choke points, roaches actually equal immortals for mineral/gas costs... so much for the "hard counter"-part...
That being said, immortals are still great against roaches, but you have to mix them into your army of zealot/sentry/stalker. Guardian shield synergizes with hardened shield (at least, liquipedia claims that; I haven't actually bothered to observe that yet), and you need to use force fields against superior numbers to mess them up. 4 range is a lot, but still not quite enough to not get messed up by force fields.
Just my two cents, I cannot really tell you a lot about specific build orders...
Regards,
Final_Judicator
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I can't find the Immortal numbers anywhere, but do Immortals out-damage a charged Void Ray (vs. armored targets)? Stargate lets you deal with Muta easily, too.
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after 1.1.2 immortals outdamage voids by far against armored. i think even against unarmored.
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Zealot/Stalker until you can get immortals is your best bet, Zealots to tank most of the damage, and you need stalkers to deal it, otherwise your zealots will just get kited forever. A few immortals + Stalker zealot works well, you really have to be on the ball for the Mutalisks tech switch though.
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Fun fact: stalker is defo cost efficient than roaches, except in the situation of: you have 2 stalkers , he has 10.
since when TL allow such blind discussion thread without a replay:
Lings are imba. DISCUSS.
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I was also having a hard time with this because It seems like if I ever go robo vs zerg I just lose to mutas. What I've been trying and having some success with is going 1 phoenix to scout, If I see a spire I keep make phoenix other wise I switch to voids. They are actually seem better against the normal roach hydra mix then they used to be, and if its all roaches or all hydras you just win. The hard part is when to add templars or colossi, which you do need vs any large army with hydras in it. As an extra note you have to be very careful and defensive of your void rays as they give priority to hydras but you want them to kill roaches which they will do automatically if you keep the void rays behind your army out of hydra range.
Void rays are still very good but they are expensive and fragile if you lose any early on you will probably lose.
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I think the primary question is does the roaches have the speed upgrade or not. Before the speed upgrade, you should be able to kite the roaches (at least defensivily), so that you rarely take damage and can easily kill the roaches. After the speed upgrade, I would say roaches can take stalkers at cost (not roaches crushing stalkers, just about equal). But if he is at tier 2, why arnt you? If he has speed roaches, you should have immortals with your stalker/zel/sentries. Immortals do insane DPS to a roach heavy army. If you like staying with stalkers though, why not get blink? With blink you can again out micro even speed upgraded roaches and should be able to take them no problem.
My guess is your primary problem though is bad FF usage. Properly used FF can cut a small section of roaches off, and not let them run making it easy to kill and then you should out number the rest of the roaches and kill them easily. Without good FF though, you will have a lot of problems.
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Where are the replays? These "this unit is imba I can't beat it. Discuss" threads are pointless and going to be full of balance discussion.
SC doesn't work like that, if unit cost twice as much it doesn't mean it's twice as powerful against that same compared unit.
I can make a stupid random argument that voidrays can beat infinent amount of roaches but can't beat even 2-3 stalkers so roaches must be up.
Stupid example I know. But stalkers do have the ability to shoot air which comes in handy once in a while.
But you too can't make an argument that zergs can pump roaches faster than you can defend them and faster than you can keep up. Without replays. We don't know if it's really like that or if your macro just sucks.
Basically, if the zerg player masses roaches, it seems like there's no way to win
If just pumping roaches all the time against protoss would be unbeatable like you say it is, wouldn't everyone just do that? In higher level games too, and never lose.
Discussions are good but I just wish people would be bring more to these than just saying "I can't beat this unit so this unit must be overpowered, discuss"
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early game:
You can use Stalkers to kite until an Immortal comes out. Cannons can be used to buy time if you did a Forge-FE.
mid game:
If he is sticking to many roach, few lings, then you should be able to beat him with Stalker/Sentry/Immortal. Since you'll have Robo, you need to get Obs to stop creep spread/burrowed Roaches. Pick your battles, use FF to split his numbers and retreat as needed. Keep up on upgrades and get Blink for the inevitable Muta switch. Blink Stalkers won't beat Mutas for long, but it should buy you time to defend and get Phoenix.
late game:
Same as mid game, but with your support unit of choice (Col, HT, DT harass, Warp Prisms, Phoenix, whatever)
The biggest factor, regardless of timing, is that you can't let his Roach collection get out of hand. You really need an abundance of shit to deal with mass Roach, and patience to whittle the Zerg down between Forcefields and kiting.
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@BurningSera: Nah, do the math. That's the main problem ... Lings are cost efficient. They're 50 minerals for 2 lings that have weak hp, but decent dps per cost. Roaches, with the 4 range, are now really effective. Seeing how with the speed upgrade, they now move faster than stalkers, AND, they have 4 range, we can now use the fact that as long as stalkers vs. roaches while they hit each other, than the roaches now are much better per cost.
@Piski: Ahh, yea. I'm trying to make replays. (SC2 doesn't store all of them anymore, but just the recent ones). I'm just hoping someone else might submit theirs while I posted this topic. Also, I know SC doesn't work like that. However, like in a lot of stuff, when you have something that costs roughly 60% and is >85% abilities of another unit, then that itself is sort of an inherent issue.
The thing is, a lot of people like to blame it on macro. However, let's just assume that that isn't the problem. I just made this thread so I could possibly get some ideas of some unit counters of how it works. Basically, pre patch 1.1.2, I could see how Stalkers could decently own roaches, with their cost. But now, I'm noticing a lot of "holy crap, an even number of stalkers don't own an even number of roaches that much anymore", and then I just calculated it over and over again to see if its fair.
Basically, like I'm getting info that confirms a few things I felt during the game, e.g. "Immortals don't rape mass roaches as much as you think" (seeing how its 5 range vs 4 range, and immortals cost 4 times as much almost).
P.S. Still trying to cough up a replay after more ladder matches.
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OK if you see MASS roach, pump Imm and get +1 shield, and get out 2-3 sentries. If you are planning on colossus play later, double robo isn't terrible if you're going to 3 bases.
Guardian shield + immortals + shield upgrade = roaches deal 7 damage.
But immortals 3 shot roaches!
Zerg can't just tech-switch to mutas more easily than you can pump sentries and stalkers in your warpgate cycles, but even if he does - the +1 shield and guardian shield will mean your stalkers take 33% less damage (9-2-1 = 6).
To micro Immortals:
Don't mass focus fire in large battles, you will waste shots. A-move with the above setup and you will crush roaches in 6:1 amounts, especially in the more realistic scenario where you have some gateway tanking the first volleys.
In small battles, do a split focus:
Eg 2 immortals vs 6 roaches - focus first roach, then order one Imm to fire at the next roach. The other Imm will automatically finish off the first roach and the second will be down to 2 shots, then immediately focus fire the next roach for instakill. In this way you will double your killing speed and double the rate of reduction of incoming fire.
If you have a guardian shield up, 2 Imm can kill 6 roaches easily doing this tactic.
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EPT
