EPTZerg MACRO against T & P - Page 4
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Gnarg
Netherlands165 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
There's nothing new about making units that are good at killing the opponent's units. Jury's still out about late game zerg being "unbeatable" - honestly, 200/200 colossus+gateway+storm protoss armies still often stomp my 200/200 ultra/corruptor/roach hydra infestor attempts at countering it when I end up in a zvp late game. Expanding as terran isn't worth it? lol i'd have fun trashing your 1 or 2 base play late game as any race. If you're not going to expand, all your opponent needs to do is survive. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Now zerg early game is very safe, so the problem has reversed. Blizzard has to find the balance between both, because now zerg seems really an unstoppable force, because of free multiple expands without real threat. The GSL games are a very good demonstration of this new balance of power. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:37 Zerksys wrote: Just because terran players lost their ability to easily harass a zerg player now all of a sudden spawn larvae and tech switches are OP? I order to rebuild an army instantly you need the resources to do so and if both of your armies are sitting there a 200/200 and you're gathering resources it might be time to attack the zerg army. Zerg lategame may be strong but there are ways to keep up with it. Edit: Also give me an example of a 200/200 zerg army that beats a 200/200 terran army where the terran player doesn't make some sort of huge mistake. I'd like to see this. Actually a huge problem is the magic box of mutas, which makes zerg tech switches OP. Not saying that the magic box should be removed or tech switches oppurtunities should be changed, but something is just wrong. Becaue magic box, terran could have a decent cominbiation of thors/mauruders/hellions or thors/tanks/hellions and be able to fight of mutas. Now they need to mix in more thors combined with marines to fight of the zerg because of the threat of mutas. But lets say the terran wins the first battle, and has like 1 thor and 10 marines surviving. Then the zerg can quickly tech switch to roaches, and tehre is absoltuely nothing the terran can do.Because the terran players needs AA, but the AA units are not cost effective vs roaches. This was not a problem doing the reaper was imba patch, because it was easy to make succesfull ahrass, while expanding, and later make a tank/marine push (tanks were better vs blings as well). Now terran harass is nerfed, and the succes of hellion ahrass purely dpeneds on the zerg not responding correctly. If the zerg though is very skilled and reponds perfectly, the skill level of the terran does not matter. HE cant hellion harass, or other kind of harass succesfully, and he will lose. So while the balance is not very good now (like 53-47 in favor of zerg I would say), it will continue to get worse as players gets better, as zerg has the skill cap. I think a way of blanacing this would be to buff terran late game oppurtunities. Thors could be given a splash dmg AA upgrade late game. Seeker missile could receive upgrade as well. Medis need their speed back to be able to harass more succesfully. Zerg already has lots of way to counter drops. Ghost could receive a slightl buff vs zerg as well. | ||
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Samhax
1054 Posts
Hum it makes sens... Edit: Oh now the gsl prove this, it becomes more and more interesting. | ||
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Bidj
France98 Posts
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Sadist
United States7298 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:12 sylverfyre wrote: What's all this "hard counter system" of SC2 that supposedly wasn't in SC1 O_o... There were some pretty "hard counters" in SC1 too!! Lurker vs infantry? Firebats vs zerglings? Corsair vs Mutalisk? There's nothing new about making units that are good at killing the opponent's units. Jury's still out about late game zerg being "unbeatable" - honestly, 200/200 colossus+gateway+storm protoss armies still often stomp my 200/200 ultra/corruptor/roach hydra infestor attempts at countering it when I end up in a zvp late game. Expanding as terran isn't worth it? lol i'd have fun trashing your 1 or 2 base play late game as any race. If you're not going to expand, all your opponent needs to do is survive. The hard counter systems were could be overcome with micro (spreading vs lurkers, lurkers took time to burrow, etc) Firebat vs Zergling, Sair vs Muta, all could be spread or overcome vs upgrades. Marines fucking suck vs roaches and theres nothing you can do about it to micro, you just get fucking raped. And no shit i get trashed late game, the advantage from expanding isnt very good at all right now vs zerg and protoss because theres a million ways to fucking die (especially vs protoss, expanding vs zerg isnt as bad, but it puts you into a macro game which you cant win unless the z fucks up bad) I think everyone can agree that Protoss has BY FAR the strongest late game army (basically because of colossus' absurd range and instant storm warp in HT's). Basically terran got nerfed into oblivion and has the shittiest way of scouting If you scan instead of mule you end up broke and if you dont scan your army can be hard countered like its fucking nothing. Bring old damage siege tanks back. | ||
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Adeeler
United Kingdom764 Posts
Protoss took our Muta Micro and got an instant Nydus for individual units While we forgot how to detect, forgot we could make hydra tier 1 and how much they costed aswell as forgot we could upgrade their speed, lost our backbone container lurker, had our plague turned into a sticky nose snot, lost tonnes of early game shenanigans All the while new units and abilities aplenty for t&p. | ||
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Slower
Australia6 Posts
I dont understand how other people cant see that T and P need to harass zerg all through early game to beat them in mid-late. Zerg players think that the game is imbalanced when one of these strategies (harassing) ultimately wins them the game and see it as their own good play when the strats dont work and they win mid-late game. This should be copied to the main forums. | ||
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dere
United States153 Posts
I can only *Blizzards league analysis: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/882511#blog | ||
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Sadist
United States7298 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:20 dere wrote: The most shocking thing to me is that prior to the 1.1.2 patch Zerg was winning the TvZ more than half of the time in every league but silver*. I can only *Blizzards league analysis: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/882511#blog And no one even brings up how bad TvP is. | ||
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dere
United States153 Posts
That is another story for another day. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
There is no reason why you SHOULD be able to stop a 15 hatch Zerg in the first place. For the first 10 minutes of the game, a Zerg player is BEHIND in econ if they have to build ANY combat units. People need to stop acting like Zerg has some advantage by getting that hatch up. For the first 10 minutes, the FE is nothing but a LIABILITY for Zerg. Stopping all the bullshit that keeps a Zerg from getting that first hatch up is the first major step towards having a more balanced game. After the 10 minute mark, it's not like Zerg gets a free 3rd. He has to fight for it and it is typically much easier for T or P to get his natural up and running. Either way, assuming things go well for both sides, you end up with 3 base vs 2 base, which is very NORMAL. 2 OCs dropping MULEs keep Terran players competitive with the zerg players mineral income, Protoss is the most behind as Chrono boost isn't really that great once a base is saturated, but then again, they're more mobile and can more easily set up their 3rd. So now let's get into army comps. Everything Terran has destroys everything Zerg has. The Thor for instance will ALWAYS get it's money back unless the Terran player is just throwing them out in the middle of an open field. Even against Zerglings, each shot is 25 minerals gone from the Zerg player, this is the worst case scenario, every other Zerg unit gives better money per shot. Marines counter EVERY unit in the Zerg army except for Banelings. TvZ is just so lop-sided when it comes to unit vs unit, if the Zerg isn't out-producing the Terran, he is steadily losing ground. For Protoss, I really don't know why we don't see more Zealot/Archon/Templar play in PvZ at the pro level. It's like they're trying to handicap themselves and not use the units that really put the zerg player on his heels. Going for a comp like that means I have to use Roaches, and not much else. Hydras are out because storm destroys them. Ultras are useless against that entire unit comp and you can always add Immortals if needed. Mutas can do OK, but then switching to Stalker/Phoenix AFTER Mutas show up will put you back in the driver seat. Zerg might be ahead in econ, but their army gets DESTROYED when they go up against the Protoss army. Things just aren't as one-sided as people are making it out to be. Zerg needs an econ advantage to be on even ground because their army still gets destroyed by the other two races. I have yet to see the OP with Zerg on the winning end. | ||
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Sadist
United States7298 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:23 Jermstuddog wrote: I really don't get the "Zerg macro is unstoppable" mantra. There is no reason why you SHOULD be able to stop a 15 hatch Zerg in the first place. For the first 10 minutes of the game, a Zerg player is BEHIND in econ if they have to build ANY combat units. People need to stop acting like Zerg has some advantage by getting that hatch up. For the first 10 minutes, the FE is nothing but a LIABILITY for Zerg. Stopping all the bullshit that keeps a Zerg from getting that first hatch up is the first major step towards having a more balanced game. After the 10 minute mark, it's not like Zerg gets a free 3rd. He has to fight for it and it is typically much easier for T or P to get his natural up and running. Either way, assuming things go well for both sides, you end up with 3 base vs 2 base, which is very NORMAL. 2 OCs dropping MULEs keep Terran players competitive with the zerg players mineral income, Protoss is the most behind as Chrono boost isn't really that great once a base is saturated, but then again, they're more mobile and can more easily set up their 3rd. So now let's get into army comps. Everything Terran has destroys everything Zerg has. The Thor for instance will ALWAYS get it's money back unless the Terran player is just throwing them out in the middle of an open field. Even against Zerglings, each shot is 25 minerals gone from the Zerg player, this is the worst case scenario, every other Zerg unit gives better money per shot. Marines counter EVERY unit in the Zerg army except for Banelings. TvZ is just so lop-sided when it comes to unit vs unit, if the Zerg isn't out-producing the Terran, he is steadily losing ground. For Protoss, I really don't know why we don't see more Zealot/Archon/Templar play in PvZ at the pro level. It's like they're trying to handicap themselves and not use the units that really put the zerg player on his heels. Going for a comp like that means I have to use Roaches, and not much else. Hydras are out because storm destroys them. Ultras are useless against that entire unit comp and you can always add Immortals if needed. Mutas can do OK, but then switching to Stalker/Phoenix AFTER Mutas show up will put you back in the driver seat. Zerg might be ahead in econ, but their army gets DESTROYED when they go up against the Protoss army. Things just aren't as one-sided as people are making it out to be. Zerg needs an econ advantage to be on even ground because their army still gets destroyed by the other two races. I have yet to see the OP with Zerg on the winning end. Roaches absolutely rape marines, what the hell are you talking about + they are decent vs thors. | ||
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
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Samhax
1054 Posts
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:25 Bull-Demon wrote: Okay, now terran are saying zerg has the strongest 200/200 army? Give me a break. Nobody is saying that. What we are saying is that a 200/200 mech army can be beaten by, or at worst, traded for a 200/200 Z army that is micro'd properly. When that happens, T loses the game. | ||
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frucisky
Singapore2170 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:25 Sadist wrote: Roaches absolutely rape marines, what the hell are you talking about + they are decent vs thors. Actually, supply wise, in large balls, marines (probably now with medivac support, do rape roaches. | ||
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lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
By this simple logic, one would expect a 200/200 supply Protoss army to beat the other races at 200/200 supply. | ||
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