|
On October 20 2010 23:56 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 23:52 MaD.pYrO wrote:On October 20 2010 23:49 heishe wrote:
#2 Inject Larvae: This just enables us to keep up with the other races. Properly macroed Toss and Terran can produce an equal amount of units as Zerg with inject larvae (unless you do it wrong, the limitation isn't larvae, it's resources, same for T and P), the difference being that Zergs units are usually less cost-effective than the T and P counterparts.
The difference being that once you're safe you have the ability to pump out 20 or so drones instantly and recover from harassment and once again overtake your opponent in macro. If you really believe that Zerg is underpowered then you are terribly misguided, sure Zerg has some issues with a lot of timing pushes, but what army does Terran have that can counter a maxed zerg army? I've never seen a Terran win against a Zerg in a late-game situation where the game wasn't decided by a lot of damage early on from some timing attack. If you ever pump out "20 or so drones" instantly, there's a huge hole in your defense which Terran and Protoss can take advantage of, unless they've fucked something up leading up to that point. Always. Other than that, there's nothing to say to that. Just remember what I said and come back to this thread in one or two months time, when (without additional changes) Zerg will -again- not win a single tournament.
if both go expo Z has totally mapcontroll in ZvT, linge deny any ground scout and mutas deny any air scout drop + keep the Terran in his base and with larvainject he can abuse this to pump out a shitload of drones and a terran who expos and uses his mules for scan will be behind anyway because they produce slower than any race and dont benefit as much as the other races from a FE (P has 2 Nexi with chrono and Z has 2 hatches with larvainject and T has what? right an OC with the mule to be EVEN economically but if you use them for scanns you are economically just behind and isn't it funny that blizzard just destroyed Terran harassment with this patch?)
|
On October 20 2010 23:55 MaD.pYrO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 23:23 Jermstuddog wrote:
Pool first is putting the Zerg player unfairly behind in econ. 15 hatch is NORMAL play. How do people not see this? Except it isn't, Terran and Protoss can't just thrown down an expansion in the start of the game, why should Zerg have the ability to? In BW this was more standard because Zerg needed the extra hatchery for larvae and the early-game timings were different, but in SC2 you have the Queen for larvae production so you don't need to go hatch before pool.There were cannon zealot attacks in BW that were pretty solid against hatch before pool as well, and no it is not 'NORMAL' play, whatever you may think 'NORMAL' play is. If you go hatch before pool prepare to die, because of course a rush tactic can kill a fast expansion.
You have no idea what you're talking about. The reason to get the early hatchery is for larva and to be able to produce your 2nd/3rd queen while morphing into lair and nothing else. If you had enough larva to do whatever you wanted you would see zergs expanding around 30-40 food.
Here is how good larva management goes. Step 1 you get a hatchery quickly. Step 2 you get queens and spawn a couple tumors (necessary for base defense). You then quickly start using spawn larva and all the larva on 2 hatcheries.
Here is how 1 base larva management goes. Get roach warren instead of 2nd hatchery. Make queen and spawn larva immedietly. Get roaches because you don't have enough larva to do anything else unless you produce 0 drones and stay on about 15 drones for most of the game. Or do some other gimmick like spine crawler fast muta.
EDIT: And to the OP. Learn to play in the late game. People that know when to take their 2nd and 3rd can fight a zerg in the late game. Zergs right now are just better at producing a strong late game because we've been playing with a huge early game handicap for months!
|
On October 20 2010 23:41 GMarshal wrote:
Well I think your first problem is assuming that a Zerg player is going to go only tier 3 units, I mean if you are getting something like broodlords then you should probably also have corruptors lying around. While I will grant that thors beat ultralisks as do immortals,you have to realize that no one is going just ultras, its usually ultra + lings and lings absolutely rape immortals and thors and they do fairly well against marauders too.
When people say that zerg lategame has no counter they aren't talking about individual units, but rather about the ability to trade armies and suddenly recreate their whole army before the other player can get more than as single production cycle in.
You're proyecting to the game an error by the player.
But first: If terran has tools to deal with early and mid game zerg units, and also have tools to deal with the late game units, they obviously have ways to deal with the combination off both. Maybe it's a little tricky, maybe people need time to mix their units in the proper way. To use an example, 6 helions deny ALL the lings that "rape thors". Zealots punish lings hard and are great meat shields and stand between the ultras and the immortals.
But, in a normal game, with even players, the zerg should be broke the hole game. He'll be spending money in upgrades, expos, tech, drones, units, ect. If a Zerg starts stockpiling minerals and gas, that means that the terran or protoss has an army advantage. If they engage, the T or P army should win, because zerg units are less cost effective, and he should be spending that money not to get rolfstomped by the terran ball. The more money Z has in the bank, the more onesided will be the battle.
Now, if you are in a 200/200 T vs 200/200 Z army, and sit arround while the Z starts stocking resources, then I think you deserve to loose.
The 200/200 Z army is the weakest. And the limitation for macro in this game, is not the production capabilities of each race. It's the income. Yes, Zerg has the theorical ability to produce 150 food in one cycle. But in reality, they don't have the resources to do so. Even more when in late game you have to deal with the drone/army equation, having 70 drones hurts your army size, and when you are zerg size and positioning is all you have.
So, no, I don't think that Zerg wins because he can replenish an army in a matter of seconds. If the Zerg has the chance to sit on 200/200 and the thousands that a replenish demands, the terran made a mistake earlier, just as if a zerg lets a colossi count get up to 8.
|
On October 21 2010 00:07 Medzo wrote:
EDIT: And to the OP. Learn to play in the late game. People that know when to take their 2nd and 3rd can fight a zerg in the late game. Zergs right now are just better at producing a strong late game because we've been playing with a huge early game handicap for months!
zergs are so full of themselves its unbelivable, do they rly forgot how fucking overpowered they were for majority of the beta where simple roach spam and 1a won 90% of games?
|
You're wrong, ZvT endgame is balanced and ZvP endgame is very hard for the Z as HT+Collosi and gateway units is really hard to counter, especially in the current map pool.
I know Zerg is suposed to lose a 200/200 battle because they can remake units faster, but it takes a while to remake an army (that is useless if not grouped up) so you have to fight them very near to their base and hope they dont counter push too fast because you'll lose an expo or two before your ultras spawn...especially on stupidly small maps
|
On October 21 2010 00:02 Burban wrote:
I go all-in every match against zerg. I figured out that it's the only way I still have a chance to win.
There's some zerg I usually play against (1500), I never win vs him if I dont 1 base all-in..(and he never win vs me when I one base all-in though, lol)
I can hellion to banshee harass then marine tank push, if it fails I can leave the game cause each fight after that push will put me more and more behind.
I really think the best way to fix that issue is to buff the raven, because it can kill units without requiring money, so it would balance the macro problem. Actually I cant see a use for that unit. Dont tell me that mass ravens beat thewind, because I saw them used against Idra and it was an epic failure (just spam fungal on them + some infested terrans).
Sounds more like you and your friend both need more practice then an imbalance issue really. To be frank it really does. Since if he cannot withstand any kind of allin pressure early/mid game then he scouts bad or cannot respond proper.
And if you cannot win a game vs him late game you are either really bad at macro/pressuring or are a bad player. Terran players can freaking win over Zergs lategame. It's not impossible at all.
Only difference right now beetwen last patch and this is that it feels like zerg is able to punish terran a bit more for stupid shit then they were able last patch. This is how I experience it at least, and yes I play zerg, and I lose to terrans who play better then freaking me not like before make random amount of thors behind walls and then A-Move into mainbase.
I have more sympathy for the protoss players to be honest since it became a lot more easy to punish a fast expanding toss as zerg nowadays, but terran players dont have anything to really whine about. If you lose as a terran nowadays it's your own fault. Not the game, not the balance, not dustin browder or the "noob" zerg playing. I'ts you
And since someone is going to whine about it I'm 1800 daimond zerg not a bronze league player.
|
Regarding Marine vs Roach that people were arguing about earlier. Messed around with the unit tester and....
You need at least 3:1 odds in order to beat roaches. So its 150 mineral cost and 3 food vs 75 minerals and 2 food and 25 gas.
You start throwing in stim and shield and it becomes 1.5:1/1:1 ish (depending on concave/creep), but arguably that also means that there will be less marines and you are delaying tech for those two upgrades.
Not to mention that in order to accumulate enough marines you need to at least have 2 barracks (either via reactor or actually getting 2 barracks).
So I have nfc why people are stating that roaches barely deal with marines. You can of course start throwing in medivacs and marauders, but then that becomes a question of unit composition vs unit composition.
|
On October 20 2010 21:59 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
um. high templar are just as capable of surviving to fight another day. ravens don't fulfil the same roles in the terran army- sci vessels were assassins, ravens are more like defilers in effect- buffing/debuffing/supporting an army.
I think half the problem is toss- even super high level toss- are being idiots with their HT's, getting like one storm off with each and then losing them needlessly. It continually makes me weep to watch GSL and MLG matches were super high level toss lose three or four temps with every engagement. If they even saved half of them they'd end up with ten or twelve temps- at which point your pretty much autowin in the current metagame.
You there are pretty ignorant. If you ever watch BW matches, u'll see the HTs are nearly never microed, and you know why? because casters in BW were low priority targets due to not having an attack. In SC2 they are top priority, so given their relatively short casting range (esp to predict movements), I don't see how they can not get easily killed after one or 2 storms. A 1a player would also take out all the casters without needing to focus fire.
|
|
|
terrans can cut like 30 scvs and just use mules on their 3rd mining base, effectivly allowing them to have a larger army.
just sayin'
|
Myth Busting time.
On October 21 2010 00:06 AmstAff wrote:
terrans [...] produce slower than any race
Thor build time 60 seconds
Ultralisk build time 75 seconds
Colossus build time 75 seconds
BC build time 90 seconds
Broodlord build time 74 seconds
Carrier build time 120 seconds
Marine build time 25 seconds
Zergling build time 24 seconds
Zealot build time 38 seconds (28 @ Warp Gate)
Marauder build time 30 seconds
Roach build time 27 seconds
Stalker build time 42 seconds (32 @ Warp Gate)
Not even going to mention the difference in tech times as Terran always comes out ahead.
Looks pretty competitive/on the low end of build times to me.
|
On October 21 2010 00:23 optical630 wrote:
terrans can cut like 30 scvs and just use mules on their 3rd mining base, effectivly allowing them to have a larger army.
just sayin'
Yeah for how long? I would much rather have an ability to power workers for lategame play then get instant money for like 15 sec.
|
On October 20 2010 23:57 MaD.pYrO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 23:55 tetracycloide wrote:
Faced with a late game situation against a Zerg that's on 4-6 bases and has nearly a 200/200 army why not employ some harrasment tactics that target the larva themselves? Has anyone actually tried switching from mineral/gas econ harrasment to larva econ harrasment in the late game? Larvae has an insane amount of armor and are not that easily killed except for Psi Storm etc.
I'm not sure I'm following. Psi Storm is great vs. zerg, so is HSM. Why not use them? Mid game storm drops are a great harrasment tactic why not continue them into the late game only switching targets from drones to larva?
|
On October 21 2010 00:18 Mensab wrote:
Regarding Marine vs Roach that people were arguing about earlier. Messed around with the unit tester and....
You need at least 3:1 odds in order to beat roaches. So its 150 mineral cost and 3 food vs 75 minerals and 2 food and 25 gas.
You start throwing in stim and shield and it becomes 1.5:1/1:1 ish (depending on concave/creep), but arguably that also means that there will be less marines and you are delaying tech for those two upgrades.
Not to mention that in order to accumulate enough marines you need to at least have 2 barracks (either via reactor or actually getting 2 barracks).
So I have nfc why people are stating that roaches barely deal with marines. You can of course start throwing in medivacs and marauders, but then that becomes a question of unit composition vs unit composition.
Just throw 20 marines with combat shield and without stimpack against 10 roaches and you will see what happen
|
On October 21 2010 00:24 Jermstuddog wrote:Myth Busting time. Show nested quote +On October 21 2010 00:06 AmstAff wrote:
terrans [...] produce slower than any race Thor build time 60 seconds Ultralisk build time 75 seconds Colossus build time 75 seconds BC build time 90 seconds Broodlord build time 74 seconds Carrier build time 120 seconds Marine build time 25 seconds Zergling build time 24 seconds Zealot build time 38 seconds (28 @ Warp Gate) Marauder build time 30 seconds Roach build time 27 seconds Stalker build time 42 seconds (32 @ Warp Gate) Not even going to mention the difference in tech times as Terran always comes out ahead. Looks pretty competitive/on the low end of build times to me.
nice done... I was talking about economic and you just quote a start of a a sentence and the end of another one. next time better quote all and dont just take the parts that you like and take them out of context!
|
On October 20 2010 23:59 MaD.pYrO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 23:56 heishe wrote:On October 20 2010 23:52 MaD.pYrO wrote:On October 20 2010 23:49 heishe wrote:
#2 Inject Larvae: This just enables us to keep up with the other races. Properly macroed Toss and Terran can produce an equal amount of units as Zerg with inject larvae (unless you do it wrong, the limitation isn't larvae, it's resources, same for T and P), the difference being that Zergs units are usually less cost-effective than the T and P counterparts.
The difference being that once you're safe you have the ability to pump out 20 or so drones instantly and recover from harassment and once again overtake your opponent in macro. If you really believe that Zerg is underpowered then you are terribly misguided, sure Zerg has some issues with a lot of timing pushes, but what army does Terran have that can counter a maxed zerg army? I've never seen a Terran win against a Zerg in a late-game situation where the game wasn't decided by a lot of damage early on from some timing attack. If you ever pump out "20 or so drones" instantly, there's a huge hole in your defense which Terran and Protoss can take advantage of, unless they've fucked something up leading up to that point. Always. Zerg has just defended a timing attack and is left with a bigger army -> +15 drones.
show me one replay where the zerg was able to instantly pump 15 drones after he just defended a "timing attack" and where the game wouldn't have been over anyways even if the zerg just produces combat units instead of drones, and your point is valid. as it stand right now, in any situation where what you're stating occurs is when the T or P fucked something up terribly and the game is over after the Zerg defended the timing attack either way, no matter what he does. Or it is in the lategame and the Zerg already had a big advantage.
|
I can't stand when this argument is made that all of a sudden zerg is able to tech switch. You have had to have spent the money on full tech and appropriate upgrades. You would have had to be banking a HEEEELLLLL of a lot of resources. And you needed to be maxed for a looong ass time to build up larvae on all your hatcheries. And you needed to have your opponent LET you take 4-5 bases.
Playing defensively all game, it is much more likely the 200/200 battle will be happening at your doorstep, not the T or P's front. Even if you can replenish your army with allll the aforementioned situations lining up in sync, it still does take time. In 30 seconds of roach build time the remainder of the T and P army can absolutely clean up your natural, killing your producing structure and a ton of drones. In fact, he can clean up your other base too, then pull back to expand himself. Besides, although you can be making roach/ling quite quickly, that's the least effective of your units against the late game T or P army, even in small numbers. You need big power units (to quote day9) to fight even on an even plane, and obviously they take longer, and there's no way you've banked enough gas to reproduce ultra/BL/infestor. Cool can do it because he was just plain better than his opponents in GSL 1. Even then there is a very edge-of-a-knife period where he has NOTHING in the late game. If the timing isn't just right he just loses.
You also forget that the T and P is also macro'ing and reinforcing the whole time as well, not just the zerg.
|
On October 21 2010 00:29 Samhax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2010 00:18 Mensab wrote:
Regarding Marine vs Roach that people were arguing about earlier. Messed around with the unit tester and....
You need at least 3:1 odds in order to beat roaches. So its 150 mineral cost and 3 food vs 75 minerals and 2 food and 25 gas.
You start throwing in stim and shield and it becomes 1.5:1/1:1 ish (depending on concave/creep), but arguably that also means that there will be less marines and you are delaying tech for those two upgrades.
Not to mention that in order to accumulate enough marines you need to at least have 2 barracks (either via reactor or actually getting 2 barracks).
So I have nfc why people are stating that roaches barely deal with marines. You can of course start throwing in medivacs and marauders, but then that becomes a question of unit composition vs unit composition.
Just throw 20 marines with combat shield and without stimpack against 10 roaches and you will see what happen
roaches are 2 food in name only, they are cheaper than 2 food units and are easily massed. You just need the supply opened up.
|
As a zerg I want to place my input on the situation.
Yes, lategame zerg is VERY very strong. The ability to tech switch is especially strong versus protoss when you can go from +3 cracklings to roaches to counter the zealots easily.
HOWEVER, terran and protoss units are more robust. At the cost of a longer and more annoying production time. Currently I see terrans go for a mostly thor hellion timing push. While this is indeed very tough to handle, when it is dealt with there is no way for terran to swing back unless they did a LOT of damage.
Zerg always wants to trade armies. I don't care if I lose my entire army because I know that I can rebuild them faster. When a zerg loses their entire army it isnt that huge of a deal, with a very strong contrast to terran and protoss.
What advice I want to give terran and protoss is to keep your main force alive. Don't blindly engage a zerg even if you feel you are behind. The larger a terran force of Thors + hellions + MM gets, the tougher it becomes. Do whatever you can to keep the most cost effective units of the zerg ( Zergling, baneling, roach ) at bay. Those are the units that I like to techswitch to.
For protoss this means in the lategame; ALWAYS have high templar. And for terran I would like to see more raven and ghost play. I havent seen a seeker missile nor a nuke in like 400 games. Where they can both be great to put zerg out of their comfort zone. And point defense drones are great vs mutalisks as is the seeker. While the turrets are extremely annoying to deal with en masse because zerg lacks an energy draining spell caster like HT or ghost.
Thats all my input on this. ~1370 diamon zerg
|
On October 21 2010 00:42 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2010 00:29 Samhax wrote:On October 21 2010 00:18 Mensab wrote:
Regarding Marine vs Roach that people were arguing about earlier. Messed around with the unit tester and....
You need at least 3:1 odds in order to beat roaches. So its 150 mineral cost and 3 food vs 75 minerals and 2 food and 25 gas.
You start throwing in stim and shield and it becomes 1.5:1/1:1 ish (depending on concave/creep), but arguably that also means that there will be less marines and you are delaying tech for those two upgrades.
Not to mention that in order to accumulate enough marines you need to at least have 2 barracks (either via reactor or actually getting 2 barracks).
So I have nfc why people are stating that roaches barely deal with marines. You can of course start throwing in medivacs and marauders, but then that becomes a question of unit composition vs unit composition.
Just throw 20 marines with combat shield and without stimpack against 10 roaches and you will see what happen roaches are 2 food in name only, they are cheaper than 2 food units and are easily massed. You just need the supply opened up.
for me 75 mineral 25 gas=100 mineral, and marines are massable with 5+ rax, so what's your point?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
