EPTZerg MACRO against T & P - Page 6
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Carras
Argentina860 Posts
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Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:37 awesomoecalypse wrote: No, they really aren't. Watch IdrA vs. Drewbie sometime. IdrA is on like 6 bases to Drewbie's 2 and has teched up to Ultras. Drewbie has a sieged up mech army and is turtling hard to defend his base. IdrA proceeds to send like 800 food worth of units against the mech army in wave after wave...and utterly fails to break the mech army. Its only when he techs to Broodlords that he can do anything about it. Lategame Toss armies are even more ridiculously powerful, and substantially more mobile than Terran mech. And Zerg's ability to replenish units so quickly is great and all...but meaningless if you take the fight to their base, because you'll destroy them before they can replace their army. If a Zerg players lets a Terran or Toss opponent tech up to T3 with full upgrades and push out with a 200/200 army, they are going to get their ass kicked most of the time. Zerg armies just can't win straight up fights in that situation, and the only way they survive is if they can delay the Terran or Toss from reaching their base long enough to crank out several huge armies and throw them at the T or P force. Lol that is such an old replay. Please, mech is neutralized since the last patch with the roach buff. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:40 Armsved wrote: Why do you say this when it isnt true? If zerg goes hatch before pool and terran goes 1 rax FE, both players have flawless macro, zerg will be able to match terrans army while maintaining an econ lead. Not to mention that 1 rax FE commits to bio for atleast the first 8 minuts of the game, easily shut down by lings baneling. The hatch before pool is a huge deal when done by a zerg at around the 2k rating... Yes, it is a huge deal, because Zerg is BEHIND in economy. Sure, I can own your bio army with ling bling if I want to go all in, get 500 minerals/250 gas worth of blings, 100/100 for ling speed + another 1000 minerals on lings. This is not normal play, this is an all-in, no different from 5-rax marine. Assuming that the Zerg should HAVE to build his pool first is unfair. There really is no equivalent for T or P, the closest I could say is that you have to build a Factory/Cybernetics core before using MULEs or Chrono boost. Watch any replay where you're up against a Zerg player. He will be behind in drones for the first 5-10 minutes of the game. The more pressure you apply, the more behind in drones he gets. The only thing that keeps his econ at an equivalent level is having 4-8 of those drones at his expansion, giving him 10% more bang per drone. AFTER 10 minutes is a different story, and if a T or P player is staying on 1 base beyond that window, they are definitely doing things wrong. But assume they expanded heading into a macro game, things just evened up again. As Zerg finally starts getting the capabilities to pour resources into drones and start saturating 2 bases, T or P just got a 2nd base up and has either doubled their mules or doubled their chrono. Zerg will take a 3rd soon, but 3 base vs 2 isn't nearly as lop-sided as 2 base vs 1. And the Zerg army still sucks. Pool first is putting the Zerg player unfairly behind in econ. 15 hatch is NORMAL play. How do people not see this? | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
#1: We can't instantly tech switch and produce 30 of [x] unittype, since we don't have the money, plus Zerg basically just has three hard counters, one being super late and super costly, one coming in two steps and one being only a counter to very specific units like the carrier or battlecruiser. ALL of them easily countered if opponent is a non-retard. #2 Inject Larvae: This just enables us to keep up with the other races. Properly macroed Toss and Terran can produce an equal amount of units as Zerg with inject larvae (unless you do it wrong, the limitation isn't larvae, it's resources, same for T and P), the difference being that Zergs units are usually less cost-effective than the T and P counterparts. The reason we usually need to be +1 base to our opponents isn't larvae. Zerg is still UP. It's just going to take a while for the other races to adapt. Even now it's not OP, we're just a little bit more even with the other races. If Zerg was any balanced at all, guys like QXC simply wouldn't take any map from guys like IdrA. That's a fact. When somebody practices twice or three times as much as another person, the latter person should just never win game against the former person. But that's exactly the case with Terran and Protoss vs Zerg. | ||
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Mr.Pyro
Denmark959 Posts
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Mr.Pyro
Denmark959 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:49 heishe wrote: #2 Inject Larvae: This just enables us to keep up with the other races. Properly macroed Toss and Terran can produce an equal amount of units as Zerg with inject larvae (unless you do it wrong, the limitation isn't larvae, it's resources, same for T and P), the difference being that Zergs units are usually less cost-effective than the T and P counterparts. The difference being that once you're safe you have the ability to pump out 20 or so drones instantly and recover from harassment and once again overtake your opponent in macro. If you really believe that Zerg is underpowered then you are terribly misguided, sure Zerg has some issues with a lot of timing pushes, but what army does Terran have that can counter a maxed zerg army? I've never seen a Terran win against a Zerg in a late-game situation where the game wasn't decided by a lot of damage early on from some timing attack. | ||
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
There's a fatal flaw with your argument. If T pushes out (and he has to push out, either to expand or to pressure Z once his army maxes since T can't bank resources/larvae like Z) then Z can scout his army composition. It takes a Z player, what, 30 seconds to build 25+ roaches? How many tanks do you think a T player can build in 30 seconds? Oh give me a break zerg don't just sit on 1875/625 waiting for you to show him what to make. It's garbage like this that needs to stop. | ||
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Mr.Pyro
Denmark959 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:23 Jermstuddog wrote: Pool first is putting the Zerg player unfairly behind in econ. 15 hatch is NORMAL play. How do people not see this? Except it isn't, Terran and Protoss can't just thrown down an expansion in the start of the game, why should Zerg have the ability to? In BW this was more standard because Zerg needed the extra hatchery for larvae and the early-game timings were different, but in SC2 you have the Queen for larvae production so you don't need to go hatch before pool. There were cannon zealot attacks in BW that were pretty solid against hatch before pool as well, and no it is not 'NORMAL' play, whatever you may think 'NORMAL' play is. If you go hatch before pool prepare to die, because of course a rush tactic can kill a fast expansion. | ||
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tetracycloide
295 Posts
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Graven
United States314 Posts
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:52 MaD.pYrO wrote: The difference being that once you're safe you have the ability to pump out 20 or so drones instantly and recover from harassment and once again overtake your opponent in macro. If you really believe that Zerg is underpowered then you are terribly misguided, sure Zerg has some issues with a lot of timing pushes, but what army does Terran have that can counter a maxed zerg army? I've never seen a Terran win against a Zerg in a late-game situation where the game wasn't decided by a lot of damage early on from some timing attack. If you ever pump out "20 or so drones" instantly, there's a huge hole in your defense which Terran and Protoss can take advantage of, unless they've fucked something up leading up to that point. Always. Other than that, there's nothing to say to that. Just remember what I said and come back to this thread in one or two months time, when (without additional changes) Zerg will -again- not win a single tournament. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Roaches got only slightly better, everything else is the same. Meanwhile, Terran players have lost their crutch. So while Zerg players are doing the same old thing, Terran players who have been relying on this unfair harassment are now playing against Zergs who are actually able to defend themselves and finding that they have no back-up plan. Zerg players have been enduring the beating for months while they work on other aspects of the game that they can control. Now that the imba opening phases have been smoothed out, those other aspects are coming to light. Terrans will catch up in another month. | ||
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Mr.Pyro
Denmark959 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:55 tetracycloide wrote: Faced with a late game situation against a Zerg that's on 4-6 bases and has nearly a 200/200 army why not employ some harrasment tactics that target the larva themselves? Has anyone actually tried switching from mineral/gas econ harrasment to larva econ harrasment in the late game? Larvae has an insane amount of armor and are not that easily killed except for Psi Storm etc. | ||
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Mr.Pyro
Denmark959 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:56 heishe wrote: If you ever pump out "20 or so drones" instantly, there's a huge hole in your defense which Terran and Protoss can take advantage of, unless they've fucked something up leading up to that point. Always. Zerg has just defended a timing attack and is left with a bigger army -> +15 drones. | ||
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Fitz
Canada77 Posts
On October 20 2010 21:31 TeWy wrote: This is why Protoss and Terran now have to rely on quick timing pushes, unscouted harass... all of which have also been nerfed by Blizzard. The issue is that while all these nerfs were done, the Zerg macro, which is the real and profund reason behind all these all-in types of play, has been left untouched. My version of this allinish types of play is explained because at the release of the game, those 1 base timing pushes were ridiculously powerful/easy/diversified, which mean any terran could mass the heck out of any of their units behind their safe wall with 40 apm (100 apms + terrans included harass at the same time with ''cute and original play'' units such as : reaper, hellion, hellion drop, blue flame hellion,thor drop, tanks drop, etc..) This easy yet powerful style of play was combined by the fact zerg had a ridiculously hard time to scout what the hell was coming and when. Now that the early game is a little less shaky for zerg we might want to look at this end game ''no counter'' zerg army, in the meanwhile, how about you give a couple weeks for other races to try and diversify their play from ''mass desired comp and push when you feel like it'' to ''maybe zerg has enought breathing room to dictate the game a bit, I should try to see what he's doing instead of playing Campaign #25 - All in on easy mode''. For real, how many weeks did zergs scream imba, tournies ending in 8 tvts while terrans were just going from ''ya know.. we know there's a couple issue in the MU but let's wait and see what bliz do'' to ''Z IS BEST RACE, use NYDUS and TECH switches''. | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:57 MaD.pYrO wrote: Larvae has an insane amount of armor and are not that easily killed except for Psi Storm etc. Hatcheries and queens don't. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:55 MaD.pYrO wrote: Except it isn't, Terran and Protoss can't just thrown down an expansion in the start of the game, why should Zerg have the ability to? In BW this was more standard because Zerg needed the extra hatchery for larvae and the early-game timings were different, but in SC2 you have the Queen for larvae production so you don't need to go hatch before pool. There were cannon zealot attacks in BW that were pretty solid against hatch before pool as well, and no it is not 'NORMAL' play, whatever you may think 'NORMAL' play is. If you go hatch before pool prepare to die, because of course a rush tactic can kill a fast expansion. Because not even Zerg has the means to take advantage of that expansion in those early stages of the game. By the time the hatchery is done, we might be at 18 drones to 20 SCVs + 1 MULE or 24 probes. If I can't move 5 of my drones over to that expo, I am so far behind in econ that it's laughable. Have you watched one of your XvZ replays yet? How does that seem fair? | ||
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Neverever
Sweden19 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:01 dcberkeley wrote: Is your post supposed to be idiotic? It's not about how easy it is to get to the late game. It's about the fact that once you do get into the late game with you know, a proper amount of bases (ie. 3) you will likely win. And the point is that if Blizzard keeps nerfing the early game without regard to the late game there will be trouble. It was suppose to be sarcastic, i simply dont belive Zerg is by defualt favorit to win the match in late game. | ||
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Burban
48 Posts
There's some zerg I usually play against (1500), I never win vs him if I dont 1 base all-in..(and he never win vs me when I one base all-in though, lol) I can hellion to banshee harass then marine tank push, if it fails I can leave the game cause each fight after that push will put me more and more behind. I really think the best way to fix that issue is to buff the raven, because it can kill units without requiring money, so it would balance the macro problem. Actually I cant see a use for that unit. Dont tell me that mass ravens beat thewind, because I saw them used against Idra and it was an epic failure (just spam fungal on them + some infested terrans). | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
What they're not looking at is the statistics where other races beat Z in the late game or where games even REACH the late game. It does worry me alot that people use the argument "Well you need to harass/timing push a Z to win, you're retarded if you take it to the late game." I mean really? The game is not balanced if you cannot choose to play a lategame vs Z. | ||
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