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Burban
48 Posts
Oh right you have bonus to light but ghosts fire too slow (shitty dps for cost) and you will be overwhelmed because you'll have a small army (a ghost is more expensive than a tank) I guess a buff to the seeker missile range, the raven's speed or to the seeker splash would be very helpful, that way we could control zerg army more easily Buff the unit that kills units for free | ||
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mind1337
France107 Posts
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
Zerg has by far the weakest maxed army in SC2, especially considering how they have to have 20 drones more than terran to make up for mules and how incredibly strong a maxed Protoss army can be with the correct composition. It's too early to comment really, there has been no real evidence to support your arguments yet. Just seems that you aren't trying to play a management game since before the patch you could just make an army of whatever composition you wanted and attack. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
[B] 2). Blizzard believes that if the T and P have a 50% chance of beating Zerg before late game, the game is balanced. From a pure statistical point of view this is not wrong, however I guess that a lot of ex starcraft 1 players would feel outraged by such an idea. It is clear that the best and most memorable Starcraft 1 games are usually the longest ones. Nice well thought out post. I'm not sure I agree with you that Zerg late game is superior to the other two races. While it's true that you can replace an army quicker, unless you've upgraded significantly and/or have hive tech units, your army can get crushed by a maxed army of either other race. It also seems like P and T can macro Max armies off of 2 bases easier than Zerg can. But I'm a Zerg player, so maybe I'm just getting defensive  | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
You would think Terran but I don't see it right now. | ||
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Deimos
Mexico134 Posts
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UnholyRai
720 Posts
I've watched it many times in professional matches, there will be a huge battle between a terran and zerg army, both armies nearly being completely wiped out. Within the next minute Zerg will be up to full strength and the Terran will be left with scraps. Game over. | ||
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:02 kickinhead wrote:I've personally seen/played lots of games where the Terran almost could keep up with the Zergs expansions in the Lategame, just by abusing PF's and strong Terran defense instead of trying to push out, so I think it's definitely possible to beat Zerg in the Lategame as Terran, just push out with a very strong Mech-army and keep Zerg's Expansion/drone-count under control with Drops. This doesn't work as well as you would think for these reasons: 1. You can't just snap your fingers and have a PF and turrets appear somewhere. You have to build the CC, move it to the expo, and then build turrets/PF there. IF you don't have an army in position to defend the expo as the PF/turrets go up, there's nothing stopping a group of lings/mutas from simply shutting you down. But that means your army is moving away from your nat, so you're either splitting your forces up (vulnerable to attack) or you're leaving your main undefended against a Nydus/OL drop or your nat undefended from a zergling attack. 2. A 200/200 mech army is very, very beatable. Enough zerglings and ultras will simply demolish a mech army, especially if you use OLs to drop ultras on top of the mech, or if you're able to get any sort of flank. Worst case scenario if you engage properly, you'll end up trading armies, which always benefits Z. If you just a-move in there, yeah, you might be in trouble... but you should have almost complete vision of the map from OLs and Creep, so you're going to know exactly where his army is at all times and you'll be able to dictate the terms of the engagement. 3. Drops are just not going to work. You can't take air superiority from Z, and a good Z will have the map blanketed with OLs, so he's going to see you coming. Mutalisks aren't doing their job if they're not shutting down your drops and keeping you penned in your base with relative ease. Even if you do lose some drones to a drop, there's nothing stopping you from cranking them out easily and grabbing another expo. | ||
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Iamyournoob
Germany595 Posts
I remember threads about how bad the new zerg macro is broken cause inject larva is so hard to do when u r multitasking in midgame so that you might forget doing it. And how cost inefficient zerg units were and that in a 200/200 clash zerg would not be able to win. Now zerg macro is completely imba? And then people compare things to BW again... I see the OPs point, but the 3 months since release have taught me one thing: The game is still changing and evolving very quickly. Starting to condamn stuff is at this early point in time is not appropriate. Zergs have been complaining about so many things. And then Fruitdealer comes along and wins the GSL. BAM! (okay after first reaper nerf, but ppl were still complaining), I don't say this is proof that something is balanced or not. But it changed my view on these issues. I learned that one should be really careful when talking about balance or potentially broken mechanics. | ||
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Grack
51 Posts
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:11 Burban wrote: I dont see how a critical mass of ghosts would be strong vs zerg. Well yea maybe you could kill some mutalisks or snipe 12 times an ultralisk to kill it but what are you gonna do vs the 40 zerglings and 20 banelings? Oh right you have bonus to light but ghosts fire too slow (shitty dps for cost) and you will be overwhelmed because you'll have a small army (a ghost is more expensive than a tank) I guess a buff to the seeker missile range, the raven's speed or to the seeker splash would be very helpful, that way we could control zerg army more easily Buff the unit that kills units for free ' The biggest problem with HSM (well, in TvZ... in the other matchups feedback and short range are worse) is the 125 energy requirement. I've tried Raven/marine builds, and aside from the obvious problem with baneling/muta, the amount of time it takes you to get a decent number of ravens with HSM and 125+ energy makes it a pure gimmick strat. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On October 20 2010 21:31 TeWy wrote: Because the Zerg produced all their units out of 1 building, they can tech switch instantly. This ability used to be one of the Swarm's main characteristics in SC1, but as SC2 introduced the hard counter system, it is now far more deadly. SC2 does not have a hard counter system. It has the exact same system as BW. If you think SC2 has anything remotely comparable to, say, AOE2's spearman vs mounted, skirmisher vs archer etc, you have lost your mind. | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:28 hmunkey wrote: You may be right, but a late-game Terran or Protoss army can easily decimate a late-game Zerg one. If you prevent zerg from replenishing, they're going to lose every 200/200 push. Again, this WAS true until Z players started using OLs to drop Ultras on top of mech armies. Now a 200/200 mech army is definitely beatable with proper micro... and beating that 200/200 mech army pretty much ends the game then and there. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:26 Grack wrote: blizzard worked only on balancing early/mid game but now when they nerfed most of all in pushes people started to notice how many issues is in late game (its not only zerg, look on tvp too) "Nerfed all in pushes"? Explain how did they nerf them? You mean by nerfing proxy rax and reaper? The most noticable nerf for terran was medivac nerf but this has nothing to do with all ins. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:30 PanzerKing wrote: Again, this WAS true until Z players started using OLs to drop Ultras on top of mech armies. Now a 200/200 mech army is definitely beatable with proper micro... and beating that 200/200 mech army pretty much ends the game then and there. Too early to say, Terrans aren't used to playing in the lategame (TvZ) without a huge advantage. Give them some time to adjust before judging such things. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
so i do think people are overreacting here alot. | ||
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:32 Yaotzin wrote: Too early to say, Terrans aren't used to playing in the lategame (TvZ) without a huge advantage. Give them some time to adjust before judging such things. No, it's definitely possible to destroy a 200/200 mech army with ultra drops. There are a ton of replays where Z players do this easily. It's not something you can "adjust to", period. You either waste supply on vikings and cripple your ground strength/risk losing to a surround, or you risk losing the army to ultra drops. Either way, if your 200/200 army dies, you lose. Period. You simply can't rebuild your units quickly enough to be effective against incoming ultras - they'll roll over whatever you can cobble together in the next 30 seconds, then they're eating your nat and lings are rolling into your main. If you could queue up units and have them start building at 200/200 food, then maybe you could hold the incoming push... but as it stands, losing your 200/200 army is game over in TvZ. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
2. A 200/200 mech army is very, very beatable. No, they really aren't. Watch IdrA vs. Drewbie sometime. IdrA is on like 6 bases to Drewbie's 2 and has teched up to Ultras. Drewbie has a sieged up mech army and is turtling hard to defend his base. IdrA proceeds to send like 800 food worth of units against the mech army in wave after wave...and utterly fails to break the mech army. Its only when he techs to Broodlords that he can do anything about it. Lategame Toss armies are even more ridiculously powerful, and substantially more mobile than Terran mech. And Zerg's ability to replenish units so quickly is great and all...but meaningless if you take the fight to their base, because you'll destroy them before they can replace their army. If a Zerg players lets a Terran or Toss opponent tech up to T3 with full upgrades and push out with a 200/200 army, they are going to get their ass kicked most of the time. Zerg armies just can't win straight up fights in that situation, and the only way they survive is if they can delay the Terran or Toss from reaching their base long enough to crank out several huge armies and throw them at the T or P force. | ||
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