EPTZerg lategame may be strong but there are ways to keep up with it.
Edit: Also give me an example of a 200/200 zerg army that beats a 200/200 terran army where the terran player doesn't make some sort of huge mistake. I'd like to see this.
Zerg MACRO against T & P - Page 3
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
Zerg lategame may be strong but there are ways to keep up with it. Edit: Also give me an example of a 200/200 zerg army that beats a 200/200 terran army where the terran player doesn't make some sort of huge mistake. I'd like to see this. | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
its just a natural thing that the zerg does have an advantage if you try to 1base push him but he defends from that push. if your a terran or protoss player and actually join a game having the idea to win in a macro game and not by a 1base push then you wont have a single disadvantage. have you ever tried beating a colossus/warpgate ball or a thor/hellion ball or whatever as a zerg? even if you macro much better you will loose as if you were a total noob if you dont have 20 supply more and get a perfect fight position. but maybe protoss and terran macro mechanics have to be buffed. zerg mechanic is easy to learn, hard to master. if you forget to larva inject for some seconds those seconds are lost. terran or protoss can just spam their mules and chrono boosts if they forget to use them at the right time. maybe mules should mine a little bit more but have a cooldown so that its actually a disadvantage if you cant macro properly as a terran. | ||
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:37 awesomoecalypse wrote: No, they really aren't. Watch IdrA vs. Drewbie sometime. IdrA is on like 6 bases to Drewbie's 2 and has teched up to Ultras. Drewbie has a sieged up mech army and is turtling hard to defend his base. Watch Idra vs. Seoyeonji and watch him demolish a T player on 5 bases, using effective Ultra drops and Nydus attacks. And yeah, I saw that game. It's from a long, long time ago, and well before Z players started using Ultra drops. It has no relevance to what I'm talking about. | ||
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Ozzie
Netherlands14 Posts
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Kraznaya
United States3711 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:40 imperator-xy wrote: zerg doesnt have superior late game in any way. its just a natural thing that the zerg does have an advantage if you try to 1base push him but he defends from that push. if your a terran or protoss player and actually join a game having the idea to win in a macro game and not by a 1base push then you wont have a single disadvantage. If you try to macro against zerg, he will definitely outmacro you. He can produce workers so much faster than you, that's just how zerg works. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:42 Ozzie wrote: Whenever people say there is no counter to banelings I wonder what they use their hellions for... Blings are not light... Use tanks to kill blings. | ||
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Kraznaya
United States3711 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:42 Ozzie wrote: Whenever people say there is no counter to banelings I wonder what they use their hellions for... Blings do bonus damage to hellions because hellions are light, but not vice versa. Nice demonstration of game knowledge there. | ||
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:42 Ozzie wrote: Whenever people say there is no counter to banelings I wonder what they use their hellions for... 1. Banelings are not light units. Hellions do very little damage against them. 2. Tanks will not stop banelings from rolling into your army, cost-for-cost. This is doubly true if you're the attacker and you lose some firing time while sieging up. | ||
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Elwar
953 Posts
Its pretty staggering how much better zerg is doing this season than last. | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:42 Kraznaya wrote: If you try to macro against zerg, he will definitely outmacro you. He can produce workers so much faster than you, that's just how zerg works. if zerg has more workers then his army is much smaller. if your terran you can turtle and harass using hellions and drops, if your protoss you have to pressure your opponent so that he has to have an army. zerg only has more workers if he sacrifices his army size. | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:40 PanzerKing wrote: Watch Idra vs. Seoyeonji and watch him demolish a T player on 5 bases, using effective Ultra drops and Nydus attacks. And yeah, I saw that game. It's from a long, long time ago, and well before Z players started using Ultra drops. It has no relevance to what I'm talking about. + Show Spoiler + Just watched it. The only place I could find that was even remotely close to what you were talking about is in 30 seconds into that video. If you're talking about that particular instance then you are mistaken because he was on 4 base with the 4th not mining. Idra was on 6 bases at the time, and while idra was able to take out the expansion the mech army eventually ended up killing the ultras. Edit: I'm going to stop commenting on this thread now because it's just going to turn into balance argument and I don't want to fuel the fire. | ||
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Kraznaya
United States3711 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:51 imperator-xy wrote: if zerg has more workers then his army is much smaller. if your terran you can turtle and harass using hellions and drops, if your protoss you have to pressure your opponent so that he has to have an army. zerg only has more workers if he sacrifices his army size. No, because the zerg exponential expansion of economy begins a lot earlier than Terran's, now that he can hatch first without being afraid of anything. If Terran conversely 1 rax FEs, zerg can drone up for a ridiculous length of time because terran units are ranged and therefore require critical mass to push out. It's not so simple as "oh well they are both harvesting the same minerals and must make the same choices," the zerg option to purely drone and then purely make units to hold off a timing push is incredibly powerful when done by good players. That's why traditionally terran and protoss units are cost effective against zerg, which isn't even true anymore with banelings being incredibly cost effective against bio terran and roaches with range decimating mech terrans. | ||
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Grummler
Germany743 Posts
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Kraznaya
United States3711 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:00 Grummler wrote: Why always has one race to be imba? Since Terran seems to be fine now, everyone starts going "IMBA ZERG". I mean, lets wait and see what happens, for now its way to early to judge. Well, whining a lot worked for zergs pre patch 1.12 so its just desserts that it's happening to them in turn. | ||
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Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:49 Elwar wrote: It does seem like the cumulative effect of diminished early harassment options, zerg buffs and the changing mindset is making it hard for T and P to secure third bases vs. zerg. You can see this pretty clearly in the GSL thus far. Its pretty staggering how much better zerg is doing this season than last. This basicly. If zerg macro is flawless there is no way terran can take 3rd. Even the zerg who won his ZvT (cant remember his name) today said that the supply before rax should be removed. The fact that zerg can do hatch before pool without any risk is just giving them too strong a economic lead in the early game. Do a 1 rax FE and take your 3rd at the same time Z does it and you will still be behind on econ through the entire game. And yes thats even if you play aggressive. He only lost to thor drop on LT, terran will only win vs an equally skilled zerg through gimmick play such as the thor drop. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On October 20 2010 22:26 Grack wrote: blizzard worked only on balancing early/mid game but now when they nerfed most of all in pushes people started to notice how many issues is in late game (its not only zerg, look on tvp too) IdrA is that you? | ||
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On October 20 2010 23:02 Armsved wrote: This basicly. If zerg macro is flawless there is no way terran can take 3rd. Even the zerg who won his ZvT (cant remember his name) today said that the supply before rax should be removed. The fact that zerg can do hatch before pool without any risk is just giving them too strong a economic lead in the early game. Do a 1 rax FE and take your 3rd at the same time Z does it and you will still be behind on econ through the entire game. And yes thats even if you play aggressive. He only lost to thor drop on LT, terran will only win vs an equally skilled zerg through gimmick play such as the thor drop. I've actually been trying a 14 CC double FE, one hidden and the other deliberately shown to Z after my first rax, and an 1850 Z was able to beat me with straight-up macro. He had no idea I was on 3 bases, and my bio push lost to pure roaches. Like, literally, nothing but roaches with equal upgrades. It was mildly ridiculous. Granted, I could have macro'd a little better, but once I fell behind on the food count there was just no catching up even with 9-10 raxes going full steam. | ||
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Gnarg
Netherlands165 Posts
If the zerg doesn't scout my play correctly I can beat him with this, but it seems that against good zergs its just impossible to keep with their macro. I do find it really hard though to put pressure on zerg while I play a macro style. I think the key for me lies here. You need to expand aggresively but still deny zerg just droning and expanding like crazy. I havent been able to do this yet. Drops seem really hard to pull of against zerg for me. If they have good overlord scouting and some muta's its easy for them to catch your dropship. It just feels unsafe. | ||
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Sadist
United States7298 Posts
On October 20 2010 21:50 iG.ClouD wrote: Zerg has always been the best race to be honest, and now that every single early game harass is taken out of the game they absolutely take no skill at all. I just think Blizzard is incompetent at balancing, and before SC2 WAR3 and WOW were a good example of it. Agree, the problem with having to rely on timing pushes is once the timing is figured out good fucking luck. Now harass has been nerfed and wtf are you supposed to do. I feel like I have to get lucky and the zerg needs to fuck up majorly to win any game longer than 10 minutes. Expanding as terran aside from TvT isnt really worth it at all. IMO what really fucks everything up is aside from Mauraders and tanks, all other ground is fucking horrible vs roaches and marauder and tank is directly countered by muta sooooooooooo tech switching can completely rape you (combine that with having to waste scan instead of mule when you are already behind economically) | ||
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