EPTi would much rather like to see icons for various levels in various divisions-- that way, arguments that win trading for the 2000 point diamond picture (for example) would be more valid because the picture conveys a player's status rather than amount of times someone worker rushed bronze kids
WIN TRADING possible exploit - Page 5
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jaeds
United States106 Posts
i would much rather like to see icons for various levels in various divisions-- that way, arguments that win trading for the 2000 point diamond picture (for example) would be more valid because the picture conveys a player's status rather than amount of times someone worker rushed bronze kids | ||
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Goobus
Hong Kong587 Posts
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On October 03 2010 09:47 kojinshugi wrote: Pretty sure Blizz is gonna strip the achieve and temp ban them for this. Kinda clever though. Never understood this kind of action. Why strip the achievements? Why ban them? They broke no rules. "But we don't like what they were able to do!" OK then, make a rule against it now, and ban anyone who breaks it from now on. Quite frankly this should have been anticipated and had a rule against it this entire time. But I am strongly against banning people who broke no rules. | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On October 04 2010 22:46 jaeds wrote: it seems like a lot of people who are angry about these people getting their achievements are envious that they get to wear the tiny icon picture before they enter games (edit: apologies if this does not apply to you. it just seems like using "fair competition" in a bronze match where their best shot is worker rushing is a veil for something else). i would much rather like to see icons for various levels in various divisions-- that way, arguments that win trading for the 2000 point diamond picture (for example) would be more valid because the picture conveys a player's status rather than amount of times someone worker rushed bronze kids I find it hilarious that you don't realize that "status" is wholly subjective. Look, I don't care about this achievement. You don't care about this achievement. Probably 95% of TL.net doesn't give two shits about this achievement. But where do you get off telling people in Bronze they're too shitty to deserve fair play? Or people who don't even like multiplayer? Your subjective opinion is not more valuable than other people's subjective opinion. My picture is Tychus, and it will always be Tychus, because he's a badass chewing on a cigar, and if someone uses cheat codes to get the easy-ass achievement unlocked, it certainly won't make me like my Tychus picture any less. But I can imagine that someone who's kinda bad at games worked really really hard to get those achievements done. Anyway, I don't think I can get much clearer about this. If you really don't "get it", you won't. | ||
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Mozz78
4 Posts
Also, I would gladly hear kojinshugi or anybody else tell me what I should do the next time I connect to farm my achievement. If I encounter an achievement farmer, what should I do ? : - Leave instantly ? - Wait and hope for him to leave ? - Try to worker rush him and lose? - Try another tactic to try and win, but waste a lot of time doing so, which would have been better used worker rushing other players ? I don't really see another option here (except win trading of course). Considering that I want to get the achievement as fast as possible, how should I react ? I'm not saying that I will follow your advice but I'm serious when I ask what I should do, because I don't really know myself. I chose win trading because that looks the good manered option (toward the other achievement rushers) as well as the fastest option for me (and all of us actually), as well as the less harmful for the newer players who would get constantly worker rushed otherwise. But maybe I didn't make the right decision by win trading, so my hears (eyes actually) are open for suggestions if you are willing to give any. | ||
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Casta
Denmark234 Posts
On October 04 2010 21:18 kojinshugi wrote: I really don't understand you. Of course no one thinks they'll become famous for getting 5000 achievement points. But there's other people working for the same things that you can "compete" with, plus it's just a personal goal that's fun to fulfill for some people. Everyone can and should have goals, the idea that the only reasonable goal is to be a world class professional at something is idiocy, a kind of fellow traveler with the idea of "you're special" that half of modern parents feed their children. Being #1 in your division is a goal. Getting the 4k wins achievement is a goal. And yes, winning the GSL or getting signed with an esports team is a goal. "Get on with your life" implies you're going to be doing something more meaningful with your life than get those 5000 achievement points and have fun along the way. Which is highly unlikely. 90% of celebrities and sports heroes are forgotten in a generation, so really, they're not doing anything that noteworthy either. I get it, you don't care to follow the "achievement competition", because it's boring and doesn't involve amazing talent. I agree. But Blizzard is not a software version of Zamboni, existing only to service the esports arena. They don't make their profits off of Jaedong, they make their profits off that guy climbing his 2v2 silver ladder. Adidas doesn't make their money selling shoes to Zinedine Zidane, they make their money selling them to all the French kids who think they're gonna become as good as him. EDIT: The amount of people who care about that is relatively similar to the amount of people who care if you're 2000 points in Diamond, or won the GSL. I don't think you got my point. My point was that first of all people hungering for fame should not try to obtain it with means in which they obviously has no skill or talent. Secondly they shouldn't try to obtain in it an area of which there is no fame to be had. The analogy to this particular topic was that if people try to obtain fame with achievements they are obviously wasting their time, because there is no fame in those mindless achievements. IF you find it fun to obtain these achievements and see that as a reward in itself, kudos to you. Im not sure what you are trying to say about goals, but yes having goals in life is of course important, but if you set goals which you are very unlikely to succeeed in you will only make it harder on yourself. Some people can succeed in the hardest of goals through willpower, some by talent, some by skill.. mostly it is a mix. But engaging a goal with none of those abilities you will fail. | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
The analogy to this particular topic was that if people try to obtain fame with achievements they are obviously wasting their time, because there is no fame in those mindless achievements. Says you. I know for a fact that you are wrong. People go fucking CRAZY over achievements. I'd wager there's at least as many of those as there are esports followers. | ||
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tetracycloide
295 Posts
On October 04 2010 22:37 kojinshugi wrote: Blizzard meant these as what the achievement text says - win 1000 games on the ladder. Gaming the matchmaking system so you can win trade isn't the ladder, it's an artificial construct created by colluding players exploiting the ladder. And no one "overvalues" anything. Value is inherently subjective. I'm going to assume that you would never approve of a tournament finalist taking a dive to split the prize money. They could take turns winning and losing to stay famous and highly paid but actually guarantee maximum income to both of them over the long run. Yet no one else would be hurt (everyone else was already eliminated), and the two finalists colluded to ensure both were paid handsomely. Is the reason why you can probably understand the concept of fair play in actual 1v1 tournaments, but not in the achievement game in any way influenced by thinking that these achievements are a pointless waste of time? This isn't 'gaming' the matchmaking system. The matchmaking system is doing exactly what it's supposed to do, placing players against players who play at an equal level of skill. That's what worker rushers are, players who are playing with less skill than everyone else so they get place against one another. Is it 'gaming the system' to not always be playing at your true skill level? If so then I 'game the system' every time I play when I'm tired or on a tilt. Value is inherently subjective? That can't be right, you were just arguing that value was objective and that because achievements had objective values blizzard would, most likely, want to step in and stop people from earning the value inherent in the achievements too cheaply. Your exact words were ‘devaluing Blizzard's content.’ If all value is subjective then one can neither overvalue nor devalue something. If all value is subjective then what does it matter how much work some player put into their 1000 wins? So which is it, are the achievements objectively valuable and therefore worth of moderation on who truly deserves them or are they subjectively valuable and therefore it doesn't matter how people get them? I wouldn't approve of a tournament player taking a dive because I'm a tournament spectator. I'm the bankroll for the prize purse and if the games aren't actually competitive then I'm not getting my money's worth out of the tournament. Giving someone an achievement by win trading with them, on the other hand, doesn't cost me a thing. I don't think achievement are a pointless waste of time actually. I've spent a fair amount of my own time unlocking as many achievements as I could in single player. I even made some custom games with friends so we could unlock the melee game 'combat' achievements. I learned a fair amount about the game in doing so and I think it was worth the time, otherwise I wouldn't have done it. Let me ask you something, do you think the win traders think the achievements they're spending boatloads of time on are a pointless waste of time? | ||
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jaeds
United States106 Posts
On October 04 2010 23:02 kojinshugi wrote: But where do you get off telling people in Bronze they're too shitty to deserve fair play? Or people who don't even like multiplayer? Your subjective opinion is not more valuable than other people's subjective opinion. i didn't ever try to suggest bronze does not deserve fair competition. i suggested that there may be people in bronze who have a better shot winning worker-rushing than winning by building structures. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On October 04 2010 19:28 kojinshugi wrote: It's cheating. No, it isn't. Cheating means that there is a violation of the rules. Blizzard bans people in WoW all the time for things like two-manning a 25-player raid boss by just standing on opposite ends of the area and having the boss bug out back and forth while they slowly kill him. And I strongly disagree with the bans there as well. Create a rule that says "do this and you get banned" and I'm fine with it. Better yet, fix the programming. No "hacks" are used. Nothing modifies the program code. But if you're knowingly cheating the system If no rule is being broken, then what makes you consider it to be cheating? You have the feeling of "it just doesn't seem right and fair", but that's completely subjective. And where do you draw the line? Should people be banned for getting 3 minute cannon rush wins against the Insane AI to farm those achievements? There are probably some people (a minority) who would say that isn't fair or isn't "working as intended" too. But I suspect you would not agree and say that people who cannon rush the AI deserve a ban. Look, all I'm saying is that if something bad is going on, MAKE A RULE AGAINST IT. Let people know that this action is not acceptable. But I think it is completely unfair to lay out the rules, and then someone comes up with a creative solution to allow them to achieve their goals in the fastest way, and then gets banned even though they were never told it was against the rules or could result in a ban. This is where some people might respond "they should have known this isn't right and would eventually be a bannable offense, it's their responsibility to figure out what is right and wrong"... to this I say, BS. It's Blizzard's responsibility to tell us what the rules are. You cannot expect players to have to guess what is allowed and what is not. Can you imagine if a legal system was run this way? People getting thrown in jail for something that isn't illegal, with the explanation "well a lot of people think it's bad and we're probably making a law against it soon". Fortunately this is only a video game so it doesn't really matter if its law enforcement is run poorly... | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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