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My firend doesn't have account here but he would like to share his finding:
I've noticed a strange thing today. Looking at player Wiktor.199 (EU) match history I noticed that for about 5 hours (or even more) player played only vs one specific another player PoC (dont know id), and they got very fast much number of winning games and got random 1000 achi. It isn't possible to get a only one specific oponnet for hours! i've scanned for the match history and found 2 another players: BeeHive, Nerxedion. I will continue searching match history to find if there are some other players using this bug/exploit.
What you think? How do this players get matched only with each other for so long?
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hacks maybe. ethier way its cheating and should be reported
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really, who gives a crap about people abusing the ladder.
It's way worse when you play vs someone that is cheating.... (maphack or something like that)
if players want to have a high rating just for the kicks, let them have their fun, it doesnt affect you anyway.
So ignore them please.
Hacks, that have an impact on your games, that are the ones you should post about
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Are you certain they played ladder, and not custom games?
If so, they were cheating and will have to be punished. *readies his cheater whacking stick*
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I'm that player who had found this exploit, just registered while ago and i couldn't post a topic friend did that for me.
They were playing ladder games, for custom games there are no achivments for quick combat like this 1000 random
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who cares?
seriously. who cares if people use hacks to increase a number on a data server somewhere? they could just as well shit all over their living room carpet with a big banana grin on their face.
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Like others have said, who cares about your ladder rank? it's all about tournaments. Personnally I don't mind players who cheat and exploit the game as long as I don't see them play in a tournament.
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On October 03 2010 08:36 ChickenLips wrote:
who cares?
seriously. who cares if people use hacks to increase a number on a data server somewhere? they could just as well shit all over their living room carpet with a big banana grin on their face.
It wouldn't matter at all, it's just ladder after all. Problem is Blizzard thinks ladder means something, as they're inviting people to Blizzcon based on it.
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I remember a thread offering $2k to the first person to get 1k wins with t,p,z, and r. If this is abused for that, then it is of concern. That would be bs if someones (can't remember the poster) kind offer is taken advantage of in such a way. I have to find that thread and warn the op.
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He currently has 0 points in the copper league, so it doesn't seem like a big deal for me. If he were like 3000 in diamond then yea that'd be a big deal.
His accomplice is poc.176, who currently has 3 points in copper league. Basically their mmr is so low that's why they keep getting matched against each other.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/288079/Wiktor
http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/253101/PoC
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abusing ladder is still cheating you know? even tho bronze or diamond
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Ya, this mean nothing for pr0 players and global fun of game, but this is still a exploit anyway. And blizzard should be aware that somekind shit of making fast achivments exsit.
I've found another person just a while ago.
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The only effects I could think of would be rankings like the "Blizzard Top 200", and other such things.
The only negative impact besides vanity listings would be for things that are based off of ladder rankings/points, like certain tournaments, or the invitations to Blizzcon.
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You guys do realise that the kind of guy who abuse ladder is the same kind of player who will use maphack?
Ban the fuck out of 'em
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When Blizzard is doing things like inviting people to Blizzcon due to ladder rankings and presumably using them to run their tourneys in the future, exploiting the ladder IS a big deal.
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On October 03 2010 08:48 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
The only effects I could think of would be rankings like the "Blizzard Top 200", and other such things.
The only negative impact besides vanity listings would be for things that are based off of ladder rankings/points, like certain tournaments, or the invitations to Blizzcon.
That wouldn't be possible with this exploit as they have almost 0 points in the copper league.
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You can't mess up rankings if you are intentionally losing games so that you are 0 rated in bronze.
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So basically they lost hundreds of games until their ladder ranking was far, far below anyone else's, and then win traded with each other for 5 hours until both had 1000 random wins?
Seems pretty harmless to me, since they're still at the bottom of the ladder and aren't getting invited to blizzcon anytime soon.
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On October 03 2010 08:53 Biochemist wrote:
So basically they lost hundreds of games until their ladder ranking was far, far below anyone else's, and then win traded with each other for 5 hours until both had 1000 random wins?
Seems pretty harmless to me, since they're still at the bottom of the ladder and aren't getting invited to blizzcon anytime soon.
This
After seeing Wiktors achievements, I assume he is just an achievement whore and he would like to get all the achievement, and get it as fast as possible. If he foud a hole in ladder system that allows him to get games with his friend and Win trade at the last place in bronze league, good for him...
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United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2010 08:43 Tyler918273 wrote:
I remember a thread offering $2k to the first person to get 1k wins with t,p,z, and r. If this is abused for that, then it is of concern. That would be bs if someones (can't remember the poster) kind offer is taken advantage of in such a way. I have to find that thread and warn the op.
Except the challenge already has a requirement to provide all the replays and an arbitrary requirement for a majority of games being "standard". This wouldn't meet the conditions of that thread to begin with.
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I looked this up abit and found several more players that does this.
Note: I'm not sure about laci and Cocopops.
+ Show Spoiler +
Wiktor
PoC
Nerxedion
BeeHive
Bregoran
Mozz
Cocopops?
Jochen
busbarN
laci?
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Cheating is cheating. A wrong action is still wrong even if it is less wrong than another.
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On October 03 2010 08:49 deth2munkies wrote:
When Blizzard is doing things like inviting people to Blizzcon due to ladder rankings and presumably using them to run their tourneys in the future, exploiting the ladder IS a big deal.
You can't advance to the top of the ladder, or even advance at all, by playing one person over and over again with a 50/50 win rate. All that's going to do is keep their rating the same if not make it fall.
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Looked at their records it goes:
win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost win lost
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Pretty sure Blizz is gonna strip the achieve and temp ban them for this.
Kinda clever though.
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so...they just throw so many games their MMR gets abysmally low, then win-trade with someone else who's done that?
Pretty harmless, seeing as you're going to be rotting with 0 points at the bottom of bronze league...
What's the difference between this and just worker rushing every game and auto-leaving against terran? They're just achievement farming...and abusing the league system/MMR to do that. (One to get opponents bad enough for worker rushes to work, and the other taking it so far you actually consistently get your friend)
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Still shouldn't we be more polite when a passing stranger takes the time to say, "Hey, I think I saw someone climb through your window!" Maybe it was a burglar. Maybe it wasn't. But I think ArtZ friend did the community a service by asking for TL's opinion. Good on you sir!
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On October 03 2010 09:47 kojinshugi wrote:
Pretty sure Blizz is gonna strip the achieve and temp ban them for this.
Kinda clever though.
Temp ban them for? It sounds like you're jealous if you believe they should be punished for doing something that isn't cheating or hacking.
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OMG THEY'RE GETTING ACHIEVEMENTS
BAN THEM 4 LYFE
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On October 03 2010 09:53 hayata2.0 wrote:
so...they just throw so many games their MMR gets abysmally low, then win-trade with someone else who's done that?
Pretty harmless, seeing as you're going to be rotting with 0 points at the bottom of bronze league...
What's the difference between this and just worker rushing every game and auto-leaving against terran? They're just achievement farming...and abusing the league system/MMR to do that. (One to get opponents bad enough for worker rushes to work, and the other taking it so far you actually consistently get your friend)
How can this possibly work, even at bronze? So I worker rush you, sending 6 (soon to be 7) workers to your base when the game starts. By the time they get there, your opponent is going to have at least twice as many. Am I missing something?
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On October 03 2010 10:00 Biochemist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 09:53 hayata2.0 wrote:
so...they just throw so many games their MMR gets abysmally low, then win-trade with someone else who's done that?
Pretty harmless, seeing as you're going to be rotting with 0 points at the bottom of bronze league...
What's the difference between this and just worker rushing every game and auto-leaving against terran? They're just achievement farming...and abusing the league system/MMR to do that. (One to get opponents bad enough for worker rushes to work, and the other taking it so far you actually consistently get your friend) How can this possibly work, even at bronze? So I worker rush you, sending 6 (soon to be 7) workers to your base when the game starts. By the time they get there, your opponent is going to have at least twice as many. Am I missing something?
Donno, ask the guy that did it and got the Dark Voice portrait with that.
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Hello everyone ^^
That's kind of funny, I googled "Win trading Starcraft" to see if Blizzard had said anything about win trading, and found that topic with my name in it (I'm the "Mozz" Happycakes is talking about in his spoiler).
By the way, excuse my English, it's not my mother tongue.
Basically, what happened is I was worker rushing very slowly at the bottom of bronze league to get the 1000 random wins achievements (at 16 wins per hour approximatively). As I was farming, I met someone who was also farming the achievement (he had the hybrid portrait). Curiously, he was leaving the game constantly when facing me. So I was kind of happy "yeah, this is going faster". Then, at the fifth time, he said to me "Why don't you leave the game this time ? I gave you 4-5 wins already". So I thought to myself that it would only be common courtesy to give him a win.
An so it started like that (at least for me because some people were doing that for at least one day before that). The next game, he gave me a win and the next game, I would give him one. And so on...
I think that kind of win trading is bound to happen because we are all worker rushing at the bottom of bronze league, we know each other, and there's really no point in worker rushing each other because that would be a guaranteed loss for the one rushing. So, to gain time, it would be better for us to just leave the game instantly. But then, which one of the rusher should leave ? So, as civilised people, we naturally ended up giving each other wins taking turns.
After that, it appeared to us as we were leaving games constantly that we were regularly facing the same people again and again as we were winning/losing against him. When you think about it, that makes sense because we keep getting the same "virtual ranking". And that became an improvement to the worker rushing method. So now, some people don't even waste their time worker rushing anymore, they only win trade with another achievement rusher.
That's the end of the story, which began probably 2 days ago (at least for me). I would like you to understand that that system emerged naturally among people doing the exact same thing, and not wanting to waste time cheesing each other, as we know how to avoid that kind of cheese. And of course, there's no hack involved. We don't want to be top diamond players for the time being, we just want achievements 
Have a good day !
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On October 03 2010 08:29 Mutaahh wrote:
really, who gives a crap about people abusing the ladder.
It's way worse when you play vs someone that is cheating.... (maphack or something like that)
if players want to have a high rating just for the kicks, let them have their fun, it doesnt affect you anyway.
So ignore them please.
Hacks, that have an impact on your games, that are the ones you should post about
you definitely weren't around for TSL2 huh?
abusing the ladder is bad. no form of gaining advantage over fellow users should be brushed off as unconsequential
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I hope blizzard will ban these fuckers soon
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On October 04 2010 18:00 Mozz78 wrote:Hello everyone ^^ That's kind of funny, I googled "Win trading Starcraft" to see if Blizzard had said anything about win trading, and found that topic with my name in it (I'm the "Mozz" Happycakes is talking about in his spoiler). By the way, excuse my English, it's not my mother tongue. Basically, what happened is I was worker rushing very slowly at the bottom of bronze league to get the 1000 random wins achievements (at 16 wins per hour approximatively). As I was farming, I met someone who was also farming the achievement (he had the hybrid portrait). Curiously, he was leaving the game constantly when facing me. So I was kind of happy "yeah, this is going faster". Then, at the fifth time, he said to me "Why don't you leave the game this time ? I gave you 4-5 wins already". So I thought to myself that it would only be common courtesy to give him a win. An so it started like that (at least for me because some people were doing that for at least one day before that). The next game, he gave me a win and the next game, I would give him one. And so on... I think that kind of win trading is bound to happen because we are all worker rushing at the bottom of bronze league, we know each other, and there's really no point in worker rushing each other because that would be a guaranteed loss for the one rushing. So, to gain time, it would be better for us to just leave the game instantly. But then, which one of the rusher should leave ? So, as civilised people, we naturally ended up giving each other wins taking turns. After that, it appeared to us as we were leaving games constantly that we were regularly facing the same people again and again as we were winning/losing against him. When you think about it, that makes sense because we keep getting the same "virtual ranking". And that became an improvement to the worker rushing method. So now, some people don't even waste their time worker rushing anymore, they only win trade with another achievement rusher. That's the end of the story, which began probably 2 days ago (at least for me). I would like you to understand that that system emerged naturally among people doing the exact same thing, and not wanting to waste time cheesing each other, as we know how to avoid that kind of cheese. And of course, there's no hack involved. We don't want to be top diamond players for the time being, we just want achievements Have a good day !
Sounds like a perfectly harmless idea, good thinking!
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I hope blizzard doesnt ban them, no one is getting hurt, no hacks are used nothing. Its win win for the players doing it, I definately dont have the will to farm achievements in such a manner but to each their own. I hope you guys enjoy your achievements/icons. 
Free winning/ladder abuse has definately been a problem in wc3 in the pro ladder with top players getting free winned and other top players "sniping" top players to help their friends. However these two situations are very different.
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On October 03 2010 09:56 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 09:47 kojinshugi wrote:
Pretty sure Blizz is gonna strip the achieve and temp ban them for this.
Kinda clever though. Temp ban them for? It sounds like you're jealous if you believe they should be punished for doing something that isn't cheating or hacking.
It's not cheating like dodging koreans in BW ladder wasn't cheating. No matter what you want to argue, they are abusing the system to gain benefits.
You are correct about it not being hacking, though.
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if you play random alot, you will eventually get 1000 wins with each race, no matter how good or bad you play. with the level of play in the copper league, wins are faster, and a win against a total n00b is the same as beating Sen in the achievements.
so if some1 offers $2k for the first one to get one of those, let him lose his cash
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The problem is I see no way around that situation : multiple people worker rushing and facing each other constantly. How are we supposed to react ?
Considering that we want to farm as fast as possible, the logical solution is win trading.
This is sad because I kind of have to choose between :
- being a jerk to other farmers and say "I'm not giving you a win, just leave the game", or maybe waste my time and proxy them
- win trade
Neither of those solution satisfy me. Win trading seems borderline legal and it's annoying because I don't know Blizzard's position toward this, and if I'm entitled to consider that the current system encourages us to do that.
Obviously, I don't want to get banned, but it's hard to respect some implicit rules (no win trading) in that situation.
so if some1 offers $2k for the first one to get one of those, let him lose his cash
With all due respect, this contest is off topic because I think none of us farm to get that prize. And even if we were, we wouldn't have the prize since no cheese is allowed.
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On October 03 2010 08:29 Mutaahh wrote:
really, who gives a crap about people abusing the ladder.
It's way worse when you play vs someone that is cheating.... (maphack or something like that)
if players want to have a high rating just for the kicks, let them have their fun, it doesnt affect you anyway.
So ignore them please.
Hacks, that have an impact on your games, that are the ones you should post about
Before you even finished your first sentence it was wrong, since obviously the OP and lots of other people care about people abusing the ladder or abusing X for that matter.
Futhermore why would we ignore people using kick tools or any other hack?
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They're just smart people using a flaw that Blizzard designed to get "worthless" points.
If I had been this smart I would definitly had done it and I see nothing wrong with it like f.ex. Maphack which causes you to gain an unfair advantage, this is just points...
(little bit two-faced here since I achievement grind myself, but by playing fair towards others. I still rush the AI though )
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On October 04 2010 18:00 Mozz78 wrote:Hello everyone ^^ That's kind of funny, I googled "Win trading Starcraft" to see if Blizzard had said anything about win trading, and found that topic with my name in it (I'm the "Mozz" Happycakes is talking about in his spoiler). By the way, excuse my English, it's not my mother tongue. Basically, what happened is I was worker rushing very slowly at the bottom of bronze league to get the 1000 random wins achievements (at 16 wins per hour approximatively). As I was farming, I met someone who was also farming the achievement (he had the hybrid portrait). Curiously, he was leaving the game constantly when facing me. So I was kind of happy "yeah, this is going faster". Then, at the fifth time, he said to me "Why don't you leave the game this time ? I gave you 4-5 wins already". So I thought to myself that it would only be common courtesy to give him a win. An so it started like that (at least for me because some people were doing that for at least one day before that). The next game, he gave me a win and the next game, I would give him one. And so on... I think that kind of win trading is bound to happen because we are all worker rushing at the bottom of bronze league, we know each other, and there's really no point in worker rushing each other because that would be a guaranteed loss for the one rushing. So, to gain time, it would be better for us to just leave the game instantly. But then, which one of the rusher should leave ? So, as civilised people, we naturally ended up giving each other wins taking turns. After that, it appeared to us as we were leaving games constantly that we were regularly facing the same people again and again as we were winning/losing against him. When you think about it, that makes sense because we keep getting the same "virtual ranking". And that became an improvement to the worker rushing method. So now, some people don't even waste their time worker rushing anymore, they only win trade with another achievement rusher. That's the end of the story, which began probably 2 days ago (at least for me). I would like you to understand that that system emerged naturally among people doing the exact same thing, and not wanting to waste time cheesing each other, as we know how to avoid that kind of cheese. And of course, there's no hack involved. We don't want to be top diamond players for the time being, we just want achievements Have a good day !
It looks like bronze league's seamy underbelly is exposed for all to see.
Although I have to say I'm bewildered that even one person, let alone a whole syndicate of people, would think this is worth the time you put in to get an icon.
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Well, as long as they don't ruin the game of others, which seems quite impossible doing what they are doing, I don't see any harm in it.
The only thing that I don't get is... why the hell would you not play the game, don't you enjoy it? Do you find pleasure in leaving thousands of games just to get a simple portrait? This sounds like something people farming pointless stuff in wow would do, I never really got that either... It's not like you will get efamous as the imba player who exploited his way to all achievements in the friggin game, people will just make a comment and go if you are lucky and perhaps adore the pro player who actually made a real achievement like winning a competition.
I would rather see myself improving as a player instead of wasting countless hours on seemingly nothing, but then again do whatever you want to do as long as you don't ruin the game for others.
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Iol, I was also, just like Mozz (hi btw), mentioned in HappyCakes spoiler. I was doing some randomplay to practice all three races and get some portraits. I figured I had to drop rankings to practice against lesser players and ended up in bronze league. Met a few different guys at the bottom of bronze who left the game, i did some trading and I realise that probably it's the fastest way, though I enjoy playing way too much to wintrade all the way up to 1k. Maybe i'll do it more later when I know it's banproof :p
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On October 03 2010 09:56 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 09:47 kojinshugi wrote:
Pretty sure Blizz is gonna strip the achieve and temp ban them for this.
Kinda clever though. Temp ban them for? It sounds like you're jealous if you believe they should be punished for doing something that isn't cheating or hacking.
It's cheating.
Blizzard bans people in WoW all the time for things like two-manning a 25-player raid boss by just standing on opposite ends of the area and having the boss bug out back and forth while they slowly kill him.
No "hacks" are used. Nothing modifies the program code. But if you're knowingly cheating the system, Blizzard will ban you even if you pay them 180 bucks a year. You think they have any qualms about banning someone who doesn't give them recurring income?
This is about fairness, and fairness matters to Blizzard. There are orders of magnitude more players who want this achievement than there are jackasses who cheat to get them.
If cheaters get to keep these merit badges, then they're worthless to people who want to get them legit, because it's superficially indistinguishable from the cheap one. It's in Blizzard's best interest to fight cheating because anyone who actually wants to get 1000 random in a legit way is 100% sure to buy Heart of the Swarm. Discouraging these kinds of dedicated players from playing (by allowing cheating) is the best way to lose repeat customers.
Some people on TL have the attitude that achievements are pointless. Well, to a lot of people who just don't have the skill to be top 200 players, achievements actually do matter. They're a way to distinguish yourself, they're a realistic goal that can be achieved through perseverance, whereas becoming the next Idra or Huk is not a realistic goal for 99.9% of players. And these players outnumber the entirety of TL.net.
On October 04 2010 19:15 Casta wrote:
Well, as long as they don't ruin the game of others, which seems quite impossible doing what they are doing, I don't see any harm in it.
Getting achievements is a game that's as much a part of SC2 as the single-player campaign is. People cheating their way through that is ruining the game of others.
(P.S. personally I don't give two craps about these grindy achievements, in case anyone thinks I'm advocating from my own personal preference. I did all the single player ones because they were fun, winning 4000 ladder games is the furthest thing from fun I can imagine)
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On October 03 2010 08:29 Mutaahh wrote:
really, who gives a crap about people abusing the ladder.
It's way worse when you play vs someone that is cheating.... (maphack or something like that)
if players want to have a high rating just for the kicks, let them have their fun, it doesnt affect you anyway.
So ignore them please.
Hacks, that have an impact on your games, that are the ones you should post about
So because there is a worse thing we should ignore a bad thing ? Seems there is space enough on the internet to post about both issues, methinks.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
personally i think if they want it enough to win-trade thousands games, they deserve it. do whatever makes you happy! kojinshugi's post above is pretty good though, it makes me reconsider a bit.
it's actually really cute that they all met each other doing the same thing =P if blizzard wants this fixed, they should modify fix the matchmaker and leave these guys alone.
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On October 04 2010 19:32 intrigue wrote:
it's actually really cute that they all met each other doing the same thing =P
Am I the only one who found this really cool and fascinating? It just makes me want to read up on more game theory.
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Hi Busbarn
If cheaters get to keep these merit badges, then they're worthless to people who want to get them legit, because it's superficially indistinguishable from the cheap one. It's in Blizzard's best interest to fight cheating because anyone who actually wants to get 1000 random in a legit way is 100% sure to buy Heart of the Swarm. Discouraging these kinds of dedicated players from playing (by allowing cheating) is the best way to lose repeat customers.
Some people on TL have the attitude that achievements are pointless. Well, to a lot of people who just don't have the skill to be top 200 players, achievements actually do matter. They're a way to distinguish yourself, they're a realistic goal that can be achieved through perseverance, whereas becoming the next Idra or Huk is not a realistic goal for 99.9% of players. And these players outnumber the entirety of TL.net.
I understand your argument but by that same logic, worker rushing 1000 games would be cheating too ^^'
Getting 1000 wins is not a matter of skills, it's a matter of patience. And even without win trading, there is already a cheap way to get that achievement : worker rushing (which nobody thinks of as illegal).
A guy who won 1000 random games by playing seriously in diamond league and a guy who won 1000 random games by playing seriously in bronze league are indistinguishable. Still, the first guy has more merit.
In the same way, a guy who won 1000 random games by playing seriously and a guy who won 1000 random games by cheesing are indistinguishable.
The achievement consists in grinding anyway, there is no real merit in having it, except that you proved that you have some dedication to the game. They are not "medals" per say. You can't really compare medals with achievements. You can't grind medals in the real life, you must deserve them.
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There's a massive difference between playing to win quickly (cheesing) and tanking your MMR on purpose so you can literally spam win trades within seconds with your buddy.
Worker rushing is counterable. You'll lose far more than you'll win.
EDIT: As to the medals point, people have gotten purple hearts for shooting their own feet by accident. Any symbol of merit is exactly as prestigious and as "deserved" as you and your peers think.
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These kinds of things are not as worrying with Blizzard's new ranking system with numerous divisions of Diamond league. Nobody gives a shit if you're #1 Diamond. E-fame comes exclusively thru tournaments.
Let the abusers have their fun if they find it worthy of another $60 they're gonna have to pay for a new account.
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On October 03 2010 08:46 Dionyseus wrote:He currently has 0 points in the copper league, so it doesn't seem like a big deal for me. If he were like 3000 in diamond then yea that'd be a big deal. His accomplice is poc.176, who currently has 3 points in copper league. Basically their mmr is so low that's why they keep getting matched against each other. http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/288079/Wiktorhttp://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/253101/PoC
lmfao
last place and 2nd to last place in the world are training hard ;D
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On October 04 2010 19:48 niteReloaded wrote:
These kinds of things are not as worrying with Blizzard's new ranking system with numerous divisions of Diamond league. Nobody gives a shit if you're #1 Diamond. E-fame comes exclusively thru tournaments.
Let the abusers have their fun if they find it worthy of another $60 they're gonna have to pay for a new account.
Lots of people give a shit. Like the #2 guy, for instance.
This kind of bullshit elitism is just lame. Not everyone will be a pro player and win tournaments and get sponsorship.
That's not cause to divide all the world into "the top 100 sc2 players in the world" versus "bronze through diamond scrubtards".
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Achievements and badges will always be farme dby thoose who consider them thier nr1 priority. Grinding it by using win-trading is fine in my opinion, it hurts no one else and will still be a mark showing thier patience and dedication.
After all, it is not fun to win-trade, hours of mindlessly joining and quitting just for the sake an achievement and a portrait. If they want to spend their time doing that they deserve it imo since it hurts no one else. Reminds me of dedicated Badge-hunters in City of heroes, spending an hour waiting for one minion to spawn for a badge, and after killing it you still have to do it another 99 times.
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On October 04 2010 19:56 DND_Enkil wrote:
Reminds me of dedicated Badge-hunters in City of heroes, spending an hour waiting for one minion to spawn for a badge, and after killing it you still have to do it another 99 times.
I know a guy in WoW who grinded Bloodsail Buccaneers rep to 999/1000 exalted. He did this by camping one mob on a 10 minute respawn timer for six months, then turning in a quest, and then camping a mob on a 24-48 hour random respawn for four more months (to be fair, he just did it by alt-tabbing while watching TV, etc). He's a decent player, but he'll never be a Gladiator or get server first PvE kills. But he's e-famous in his own way for his crazy achievement whoring.
It's completely crazy, yes. It's mindless grinding, yes. But it takes a lot more effort and dedication than simply glitching the thing, which the guys described in the OP are doing.
If the whole point of the achievement is "this takes a lot of time and grinding", then glitching the matchmaking system to get rid of the time factor seems like a pretty significant cheat.
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On October 04 2010 19:52 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 19:48 niteReloaded wrote:
These kinds of things are not as worrying with Blizzard's new ranking system with numerous divisions of Diamond league. Nobody gives a shit if you're #1 Diamond. E-fame comes exclusively thru tournaments.
Let the abusers have their fun if they find it worthy of another $60 they're gonna have to pay for a new account. Lots of people give a shit. Like the #2 guy, for instance. This kind of bullshit elitism is just lame. Not everyone will be a pro player and win tournaments and get sponsorship. That's not cause to divide all the world into "the top 100 sc2 players in the world" versus "bronze through diamond scrubtards".
It is not elitism, achievements are just tricking people into thinking they can become famous when in reality nobody gives a shit.
If you can't get efamous by being pro (which includes me), trying to get famous through achievements just seems an even more pathetic waste of time which could be spent on something useful not necessarily in starcraft.
But hey it is just like real life where lots of people also try to get famous by doing stupid shit, the sooner those people realize that they suck the sooner they can get on with their life and make room for people with real talent and skill.
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Big ups to you, Mozz for coming here and stating your case. Your maturity outclasses most of the regulars here, so I say you should have the right to do whatever the hell you want 
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still amazed by people actually caring about achievements enough to do this kind of crap.
who cares if you have 1000 wins when ur 0 points bronze?
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I can't believe how fast so many people attack posts at every turn saying ladder doesn't matter who cares. When 99% of posts on the forum have to include what league your in and your rating and if you don't include either of those in your post someone will ask or assume what league or rating you are. Ladder does matter to the majority of posters here because majority don't play tourney's. On topic if its unfair advantage regardless if it's bronze or diamond it's cheating the system because the system isn't intended to be used that way. I don't see why anyone that doesn't care would post in this thread anyway.
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Oh no, this is horrible. Now the game isn't fun for me to play. Someone needs to fix this because it affects me adversely.
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It looks to me like all he's going for is achievements, since he's stuck at 0 bronze.
So this really doesnt matter.
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On October 04 2010 20:21 Casta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 19:52 kojinshugi wrote:On October 04 2010 19:48 niteReloaded wrote:
These kinds of things are not as worrying with Blizzard's new ranking system with numerous divisions of Diamond league. Nobody gives a shit if you're #1 Diamond. E-fame comes exclusively thru tournaments.
Let the abusers have their fun if they find it worthy of another $60 they're gonna have to pay for a new account. Lots of people give a shit. Like the #2 guy, for instance. This kind of bullshit elitism is just lame. Not everyone will be a pro player and win tournaments and get sponsorship. That's not cause to divide all the world into "the top 100 sc2 players in the world" versus "bronze through diamond scrubtards". It is not elitism, achievements are just tricking people into thinking they can become famous when in reality nobody gives a shit. If you can't get efamous by being pro (which includes me), trying to get famous through achievements just seems an even more pathetic waste of time which could be spent on something useful not necessarily in starcraft. But hey it is just like real life where lots of people also try to get famous by doing stupid shit, the sooner those people realize that they suck the sooner they can get on with their life and make room for people with real talent and skill.
I really don't understand you. Of course no one thinks they'll become famous for getting 5000 achievement points. But there's other people working for the same things that you can "compete" with, plus it's just a personal goal that's fun to fulfill for some people.
Everyone can and should have goals, the idea that the only reasonable goal is to be a world class professional at something is idiocy, a kind of fellow traveler with the idea of "you're special" that half of modern parents feed their children.
Being #1 in your division is a goal. Getting the 4k wins achievement is a goal. And yes, winning the GSL or getting signed with an esports team is a goal.
"Get on with your life" implies you're going to be doing something more meaningful with your life than get those 5000 achievement points and have fun along the way. Which is highly unlikely. 90% of celebrities and sports heroes are forgotten in a generation, so really, they're not doing anything that noteworthy either.
I get it, you don't care to follow the "achievement competition", because it's boring and doesn't involve amazing talent. I agree. But Blizzard is not a software version of Zamboni, existing only to service the esports arena. They don't make their profits off of Jaedong, they make their profits off that guy climbing his 2v2 silver ladder. Adidas doesn't make their money selling shoes to Zinedine Zidane, they make their money selling them to all the French kids who think they're gonna become as good as him.
EDIT:
On October 04 2010 20:27 Subversion wrote:
still amazed by people actually caring about achievements enough to do this kind of crap.
who cares if you have 1000 wins when ur 0 points bronze?
The amount of people who care about that is relatively similar to the amount of people who care if you're 2000 points in Diamond, or won the GSL.
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What does this have to do with the ladder? It's not like one can move up by win trading. It's really simple, the achievements are supposed to be a grind, these guys put in the work, so they get a cookie. If you actually want a reward that means something skill wise then rank up to #1 diamond.
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On October 04 2010 21:18 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 20:21 Casta wrote:On October 04 2010 19:52 kojinshugi wrote:On October 04 2010 19:48 niteReloaded wrote:
These kinds of things are not as worrying with Blizzard's new ranking system with numerous divisions of Diamond league. Nobody gives a shit if you're #1 Diamond. E-fame comes exclusively thru tournaments.
Let the abusers have their fun if they find it worthy of another $60 they're gonna have to pay for a new account. Lots of people give a shit. Like the #2 guy, for instance. This kind of bullshit elitism is just lame. Not everyone will be a pro player and win tournaments and get sponsorship. That's not cause to divide all the world into "the top 100 sc2 players in the world" versus "bronze through diamond scrubtards". It is not elitism, achievements are just tricking people into thinking they can become famous when in reality nobody gives a shit. If you can't get efamous by being pro (which includes me), trying to get famous through achievements just seems an even more pathetic waste of time which could be spent on something useful not necessarily in starcraft. But hey it is just like real life where lots of people also try to get famous by doing stupid shit, the sooner those people realize that they suck the sooner they can get on with their life and make room for people with real talent and skill. I really don't understand you. Of course no one thinks they'll become famous for getting 5000 achievement points. But there's other people working for the same things that you can "compete" with, plus it's just a personal goal that's fun to fulfill for some people. Everyone can and should have goals, the idea that the only reasonable goal is to be a world class professional at something is idiocy, a kind of fellow traveler with the idea of "you're special" that half of modern parents feed their children. Being #1 in your division is a goal. Getting the 4k wins achievement is a goal. And yes, winning the GSL or getting signed with an esports team is a goal. "Get on with your life" implies you're going to be doing something more meaningful with your life than get those 5000 achievement points and have fun along the way. Which is highly unlikely. 90% of celebrities and sports heroes are forgotten in a generation, so really, they're not doing anything that noteworthy either. I get it, you don't care to follow the "achievement competition", because it's boring and doesn't involve amazing talent. I agree. But Blizzard is not a software version of Zamboni, existing only to service the esports arena. They don't make their profits off of Jaedong, they make their profits off that guy climbing his 2v2 silver ladder. Adidas doesn't make their money selling shoes to Zinedine Zidane, they make their money selling them to all the French kids who think they're gonna become as good as him. EDIT: Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 20:27 Subversion wrote:
still amazed by people actually caring about achievements enough to do this kind of crap.
who cares if you have 1000 wins when ur 0 points bronze? The amount of people who care about that is relatively similar to the amount of people who care if you're 2000 points in Diamond, or won the GSL.
This man speaks the truth, i agree 100%.
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On October 04 2010 21:18 kojinshugi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 04 2010 20:21 Casta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 19:52 kojinshugi wrote:On October 04 2010 19:48 niteReloaded wrote:
These kinds of things are not as worrying with Blizzard's new ranking system with numerous divisions of Diamond league. Nobody gives a shit if you're #1 Diamond. E-fame comes exclusively thru tournaments.
Let the abusers have their fun if they find it worthy of another $60 they're gonna have to pay for a new account. Lots of people give a shit. Like the #2 guy, for instance. This kind of bullshit elitism is just lame. Not everyone will be a pro player and win tournaments and get sponsorship. That's not cause to divide all the world into "the top 100 sc2 players in the world" versus "bronze through diamond scrubtards". It is not elitism, achievements are just tricking people into thinking they can become famous when in reality nobody gives a shit. If you can't get efamous by being pro (which includes me), trying to get famous through achievements just seems an even more pathetic waste of time which could be spent on something useful not necessarily in starcraft. But hey it is just like real life where lots of people also try to get famous by doing stupid shit, the sooner those people realize that they suck the sooner they can get on with their life and make room for people with real talent and skill. I really don't understand you. Of course no one thinks they'll become famous for getting 5000 achievement points. But there's other people working for the same things that you can "compete" with, plus it's just a personal goal that's fun to fulfill for some people. Everyone can and should have goals, the idea that the only reasonable goal is to be a world class professional at something is idiocy, a kind of fellow traveler with the idea of "you're special" that half of modern parents feed their children. Being #1 in your division is a goal. Getting the 4k wins achievement is a goal. And yes, winning the GSL or getting signed with an esports team is a goal. "Get on with your life" implies you're going to be doing something more meaningful with your life than get those 5000 achievement points and have fun along the way. Which is highly unlikely. 90% of celebrities and sports heroes are forgotten in a generation, so really, they're not doing anything that noteworthy either. I get it, you don't care to follow the "achievement competition", because it's boring and doesn't involve amazing talent. I agree. But Blizzard is not a software version of Zamboni, existing only to service the esports arena. They don't make their profits off of Jaedong, they make their profits off that guy climbing his 2v2 silver ladder. Adidas doesn't make their money selling shoes to Zinedine Zidane, they make their money selling them to all the French kids who think they're gonna become as good as him. EDIT: On October 04 2010 20:27 Subversion wrote:
still amazed by people actually caring about achievements enough to do this kind of crap.
who cares if you have 1000 wins when ur 0 points bronze? The amount of people who care about that is relatively similar to the amount of people who care if you're 2000 points in Diamond, or won the GSL.
What people who care about being skillful at something and other people recognising it?
Actually I see your point, there is no point of achieving skill or attaining mastery... Let's make all people who aspire to be good at something stop. Let us, one person at a time... First let's start off by breaking Messi's leg.
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Or maybe we just uncovered the accounts dev use to test stuff?
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Is it possible that it's accounts from 2 netcafés?
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On October 04 2010 21:26 ooni wrote:
What people who care about being skillful at something and other people recognising it?
Actually I see your point, there is no point of achieving skill or attaining mastery... Let's make all people who aspire to be good at something stop. Let us, one person at a time... First let's start off by breaking Messi's leg.
How was that my point at all?
I was saying the opposite. Everyone's achievements matter. It's just that more people are actually interested in the achievements of Idra and TLO and Cool and whatnot. That doesn't lead to a dichotomy of "anything that isn't top level professional play is worthless garbage".
I don't personally care if the guys get banned or not, I'm explaining why I think Blizzard will ban them. Because the amount of their paying customers who care if people are cheating is high enough for it to matter to Blizzard. Even if these people don't explicitly think this is ban-worthy, their opinions of the achievement will drop ("oh they just cheat and wintrade"), devaluing Blizzard's content, which just happens to be their bread and butter.
Although I doubt it'll be a ban, they'll probably get a warning/suspension and a wipe of their match histories.
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On October 03 2010 08:36 ChickenLips wrote:
who cares?
cool could just as well shit all over his terran opponent with a big banana grin on his face.
Fixed. Yeah GSL is over but it was sooooooooooo goooooooooood
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WTF, I'm really interested how this could possibly work.
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would people be happier if these 2 kept meeting each other through blizzard's matchmaking system and kept worker rushing each other? this would still consist of skill-less, short games.
grats to them, and i hope they enjoy the pretty pictures before they queue for their bronze matches
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On October 04 2010 21:36 kojinshugi wrote:I don't personally care if the guys get banned or not, I'm explaining why I think Blizzard will ban them. Because the amount of their paying customers who care if people are cheating is high enough for it to matter to Blizzard. Even if these people don't explicitly think this is ban-worthy, their opinions of the achievement will drop ("oh they just cheat and wintrade"), devaluing Blizzard's content, which just happens to be their bread and butter.
Although I doubt it'll be a ban, they'll probably get a warning/suspension and a wipe of their match histories.
So your theory is not only are there players that overvalue "X wins as Y race" achievements but that Blizzard overvalues it as well? I hope you're wrong. Anyone, including Blizzard, that thought these things meant more then simply: 'Find a way to win X times as quickly as possible' was misguided.
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Since the game goes off on point parra point system (IE loose 5, they gain 5) should 2 people fall to absolute zero, play each other, what happens? They get 0 points for winning / loosing and they are far too low to not be pitted against each other as no-one is bad enough to be a legit 0 point bronze, thats why this works.
For anyone expecting a 0 point bronze to really be that bad, you have the intelligence qualified to be one.
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I don't mind achievement whores aslong as they don't grief anyone.
And i don't mind ladder "abusing" aslong as its not to get like top diamond somehow etc
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Poc (hes a freind of mine, but a mad guy when it comes to achievements) is abusing his ridiculously low ladder rating. When he meets players very often who are workerrushing their way up to cool Pics, the agree on leaving the games to make it faster.
I asked myself if it can get more silly than workerrushing, and the simple answer is: Yep - it can.
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On October 04 2010 22:13 tetracycloide wrote:
So your theory is not only are there players that overvalue "X wins as Y race" achievements but that Blizzard overvalues it as well? I hope you're wrong. Anyone, including Blizzard, that thought these things meant more then simply: 'Find a way to win X times as quickly as possible' was misguided.
Blizzard meant these as what the achievement text says - win 1000 games on the ladder.
Gaming the matchmaking system so you can win trade isn't the ladder, it's an artificial construct created by colluding players exploiting the ladder.
And no one "overvalues" anything. Value is inherently subjective.
I'm going to assume that you would never approve of a tournament finalist taking a dive to split the prize money. They could take turns winning and losing to stay famous and highly paid but actually guarantee maximum income to both of them over the long run. Yet no one else would be hurt (everyone else was already eliminated), and the two finalists colluded to ensure both were paid handsomely.
Is the reason why you can probably understand the concept of fair play in actual 1v1 tournaments, but not in the achievement game in any way influenced by thinking that these achievements are a pointless waste of time?
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Blizzard has cracked down on arena win-trading in WoW in the past, don't be surprised if they do so in SC2 ladder as well.
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it seems like a lot of people who are angry about these people getting their achievements are envious that they get to wear the tiny icon picture before they enter games (edit: apologies if this does not apply to you. it just seems like using "fair competition" in a bronze match where their best shot is worker rushing is a veil for something else).
i would much rather like to see icons for various levels in various divisions-- that way, arguments that win trading for the 2000 point diamond picture (for example) would be more valid because the picture conveys a player's status rather than amount of times someone worker rushed bronze kids
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We should ban people who hack the ladder because ladder hacks are the gateway hack into hard hacks (i.e. cocaine, meth, speed, etc.).
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On October 03 2010 09:47 kojinshugi wrote:
Pretty sure Blizz is gonna strip the achieve and temp ban them for this.
Kinda clever though.
Never understood this kind of action. Why strip the achievements? Why ban them? They broke no rules.
"But we don't like what they were able to do!" OK then, make a rule against it now, and ban anyone who breaks it from now on. Quite frankly this should have been anticipated and had a rule against it this entire time.
But I am strongly against banning people who broke no rules.
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On October 04 2010 22:46 jaeds wrote:
it seems like a lot of people who are angry about these people getting their achievements are envious that they get to wear the tiny icon picture before they enter games (edit: apologies if this does not apply to you. it just seems like using "fair competition" in a bronze match where their best shot is worker rushing is a veil for something else).
i would much rather like to see icons for various levels in various divisions-- that way, arguments that win trading for the 2000 point diamond picture (for example) would be more valid because the picture conveys a player's status rather than amount of times someone worker rushed bronze kids
I find it hilarious that you don't realize that "status" is wholly subjective.
Look, I don't care about this achievement. You don't care about this achievement. Probably 95% of TL.net doesn't give two shits about this achievement.
But where do you get off telling people in Bronze they're too shitty to deserve fair play? Or people who don't even like multiplayer? Your subjective opinion is not more valuable than other people's subjective opinion.
My picture is Tychus, and it will always be Tychus, because he's a badass chewing on a cigar, and if someone uses cheat codes to get the easy-ass achievement unlocked, it certainly won't make me like my Tychus picture any less. But I can imagine that someone who's kinda bad at games worked really really hard to get those achievements done.
Anyway, I don't think I can get much clearer about this. If you really don't "get it", you won't.
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Saying we're "abusing the ladder" is half right and half wrong. This will probably sound hypocritical but we are not responsible if the ladder system keeps puting us against the same person. That's merely an unintended side effect of our good manners toward each others.
Also, I would gladly hear kojinshugi or anybody else tell me what I should do the next time I connect to farm my achievement. If I encounter an achievement farmer, what should I do ? :
- Leave instantly ?
- Wait and hope for him to leave ?
- Try to worker rush him and lose?
- Try another tactic to try and win, but waste a lot of time doing so, which would have been better used worker rushing other players ?
I don't really see another option here (except win trading of course). Considering that I want to get the achievement as fast as possible, how should I react ? I'm not saying that I will follow your advice but I'm serious when I ask what I should do, because I don't really know myself.
I chose win trading because that looks the good manered option (toward the other achievement rushers) as well as the fastest option for me (and all of us actually), as well as the less harmful for the newer players who would get constantly worker rushed otherwise.
But maybe I didn't make the right decision by win trading, so my hears (eyes actually) are open for suggestions if you are willing to give any.
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On October 04 2010 21:18 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 20:21 Casta wrote:On October 04 2010 19:52 kojinshugi wrote:On October 04 2010 19:48 niteReloaded wrote:
These kinds of things are not as worrying with Blizzard's new ranking system with numerous divisions of Diamond league. Nobody gives a shit if you're #1 Diamond. E-fame comes exclusively thru tournaments.
Let the abusers have their fun if they find it worthy of another $60 they're gonna have to pay for a new account. Lots of people give a shit. Like the #2 guy, for instance. This kind of bullshit elitism is just lame. Not everyone will be a pro player and win tournaments and get sponsorship. That's not cause to divide all the world into "the top 100 sc2 players in the world" versus "bronze through diamond scrubtards". It is not elitism, achievements are just tricking people into thinking they can become famous when in reality nobody gives a shit. If you can't get efamous by being pro (which includes me), trying to get famous through achievements just seems an even more pathetic waste of time which could be spent on something useful not necessarily in starcraft. But hey it is just like real life where lots of people also try to get famous by doing stupid shit, the sooner those people realize that they suck the sooner they can get on with their life and make room for people with real talent and skill. I really don't understand you. Of course no one thinks they'll become famous for getting 5000 achievement points. But there's other people working for the same things that you can "compete" with, plus it's just a personal goal that's fun to fulfill for some people. Everyone can and should have goals, the idea that the only reasonable goal is to be a world class professional at something is idiocy, a kind of fellow traveler with the idea of "you're special" that half of modern parents feed their children. Being #1 in your division is a goal. Getting the 4k wins achievement is a goal. And yes, winning the GSL or getting signed with an esports team is a goal. "Get on with your life" implies you're going to be doing something more meaningful with your life than get those 5000 achievement points and have fun along the way. Which is highly unlikely. 90% of celebrities and sports heroes are forgotten in a generation, so really, they're not doing anything that noteworthy either. I get it, you don't care to follow the "achievement competition", because it's boring and doesn't involve amazing talent. I agree. But Blizzard is not a software version of Zamboni, existing only to service the esports arena. They don't make their profits off of Jaedong, they make their profits off that guy climbing his 2v2 silver ladder. Adidas doesn't make their money selling shoes to Zinedine Zidane, they make their money selling them to all the French kids who think they're gonna become as good as him. EDIT: Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 20:27 Subversion wrote:
still amazed by people actually caring about achievements enough to do this kind of crap.
who cares if you have 1000 wins when ur 0 points bronze? The amount of people who care about that is relatively similar to the amount of people who care if you're 2000 points in Diamond, or won the GSL.
I don't think you got my point.
My point was that first of all people hungering for fame should not try to obtain it with means in which they obviously has no skill or talent. Secondly they shouldn't try to obtain in it an area of which there is no fame to be had.
The analogy to this particular topic was that if people try to obtain fame with achievements they are obviously wasting their time, because there is no fame in those mindless achievements.
IF you find it fun to obtain these achievements and see that as a reward in itself, kudos to you.
Im not sure what you are trying to say about goals, but yes having goals in life is of course important, but if you set goals which you are very unlikely to succeeed in you will only make it harder on yourself. Some people can succeed in the hardest of goals through willpower, some by talent, some by skill.. mostly it is a mix. But engaging a goal with none of those abilities you will fail.
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The analogy to this particular topic was that if people try to obtain fame with achievements they are obviously wasting their time, because there is no fame in those mindless achievements.
Says you.
I know for a fact that you are wrong. People go fucking CRAZY over achievements. I'd wager there's at least as many of those as there are esports followers.
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On October 04 2010 22:37 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 22:13 tetracycloide wrote:
So your theory is not only are there players that overvalue "X wins as Y race" achievements but that Blizzard overvalues it as well? I hope you're wrong. Anyone, including Blizzard, that thought these things meant more then simply: 'Find a way to win X times as quickly as possible' was misguided. Blizzard meant these as what the achievement text says - win 1000 games on the ladder. Gaming the matchmaking system so you can win trade isn't the ladder, it's an artificial construct created by colluding players exploiting the ladder. And no one "overvalues" anything. Value is inherently subjective. I'm going to assume that you would never approve of a tournament finalist taking a dive to split the prize money. They could take turns winning and losing to stay famous and highly paid but actually guarantee maximum income to both of them over the long run. Yet no one else would be hurt (everyone else was already eliminated), and the two finalists colluded to ensure both were paid handsomely. Is the reason why you can probably understand the concept of fair play in actual 1v1 tournaments, but not in the achievement game in any way influenced by thinking that these achievements are a pointless waste of time?
This isn't 'gaming' the matchmaking system. The matchmaking system is doing exactly what it's supposed to do, placing players against players who play at an equal level of skill. That's what worker rushers are, players who are playing with less skill than everyone else so they get place against one another. Is it 'gaming the system' to not always be playing at your true skill level? If so then I 'game the system' every time I play when I'm tired or on a tilt.
Value is inherently subjective? That can't be right, you were just arguing that value was objective and that because achievements had objective values blizzard would, most likely, want to step in and stop people from earning the value inherent in the achievements too cheaply. Your exact words were ‘devaluing Blizzard's content.’ If all value is subjective then one can neither overvalue nor devalue something. If all value is subjective then what does it matter how much work some player put into their 1000 wins? So which is it, are the achievements objectively valuable and therefore worth of moderation on who truly deserves them or are they subjectively valuable and therefore it doesn't matter how people get them?
I wouldn't approve of a tournament player taking a dive because I'm a tournament spectator. I'm the bankroll for the prize purse and if the games aren't actually competitive then I'm not getting my money's worth out of the tournament. Giving someone an achievement by win trading with them, on the other hand, doesn't cost me a thing.
I don't think achievement are a pointless waste of time actually. I've spent a fair amount of my own time unlocking as many achievements as I could in single player. I even made some custom games with friends so we could unlock the melee game 'combat' achievements. I learned a fair amount about the game in doing so and I think it was worth the time, otherwise I wouldn't have done it.
Let me ask you something, do you think the win traders think the achievements they're spending boatloads of time on are a pointless waste of time?
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On October 04 2010 23:02 kojinshugi wrote:
But where do you get off telling people in Bronze they're too shitty to deserve fair play? Or people who don't even like multiplayer? Your subjective opinion is not more valuable than other people's subjective opinion.
i didn't ever try to suggest bronze does not deserve fair competition. i suggested that there may be people in bronze who have a better shot winning worker-rushing than winning by building structures.
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On October 04 2010 19:28 kojinshugi wrote:
It's cheating.
No, it isn't. Cheating means that there is a violation of the rules.
Blizzard bans people in WoW all the time for things like two-manning a 25-player raid boss by just standing on opposite ends of the area and having the boss bug out back and forth while they slowly kill him.
And I strongly disagree with the bans there as well. Create a rule that says "do this and you get banned" and I'm fine with it. Better yet, fix the programming.
No "hacks" are used. Nothing modifies the program code. But if you're knowingly cheating the system
If no rule is being broken, then what makes you consider it to be cheating? You have the feeling of "it just doesn't seem right and fair", but that's completely subjective. And where do you draw the line? Should people be banned for getting 3 minute cannon rush wins against the Insane AI to farm those achievements?
There are probably some people (a minority) who would say that isn't fair or isn't "working as intended" too. But I suspect you would not agree and say that people who cannon rush the AI deserve a ban.
Look, all I'm saying is that if something bad is going on, MAKE A RULE AGAINST IT. Let people know that this action is not acceptable.
But I think it is completely unfair to lay out the rules, and then someone comes up with a creative solution to allow them to achieve their goals in the fastest way, and then gets banned even though they were never told it was against the rules or could result in a ban.
This is where some people might respond "they should have known this isn't right and would eventually be a bannable offense, it's their responsibility to figure out what is right and wrong"... to this I say, BS. It's Blizzard's responsibility to tell us what the rules are. You cannot expect players to have to guess what is allowed and what is not.
Can you imagine if a legal system was run this way? People getting thrown in jail for something that isn't illegal, with the explanation "well a lot of people think it's bad and we're probably making a law against it soon". Fortunately this is only a video game so it doesn't really matter if its law enforcement is run poorly...
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Valhalla18444 Posts
do not make a thread to explore the misguided ladder tactics of singular users
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EPT
