EPTMaybe the problem is that you are not good enough at sc2.
Look around quite a bit. All tournaments are won by terrans. And you say that terran is weak vs protoss. LoL.
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[H] TvP: How do I counter High Templars? - Page 2
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
Maybe the problem is that you are not good enough at sc2. Look around quite a bit. All tournaments are won by terrans. And you say that terran is weak vs protoss. LoL. User was warned for this post | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
You can 2 shot Colossi with your vikings, and they will STILL deal enough damage to your bioball to threw you completely off. What evidence do you want and why are you talking about maindrops in early game where you can take out stuff. Because I talk about pressuring expansions to force the Protoss move his army while engaging other places, you simply CAN'T vs a good Protoss. And at an expansions are no other buildings to snipe. By the way, I think Protoss players fail to realize that 4 Marauder + 1 Medivac means 500/200 which is quiet a lot, don't you think? Obviously untouched / unharmed Marauderdrops will be really cost efficient because they kill buildings so fast, but I've never hit mid/lategame against good Protoss who loses "lots" of stuff to 4 oder 8 Marauder drops, because they can reinforce anywhere, at any time. As I said, its hard to explain without replays - but you will always have trouble against solid Protoss players. KiWiKaKi is from what I hear REALLY good with his army composition so.. maybe check out his reps^_^! | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On September 24 2010 05:59 G.s)NarutO wrote: If you EMP (AoE 2) and put the Templar in the middle of that AoE feedback will hit before your EMP. And the Ghosts are not going within your army.. because they need to get in front because you want to EMP while attacking. If they are stuck within your bio ball, they will die to storm  ! Its really a lot more tricky than you make it sound and storm is a lot easier to cast than EMP even though both are AoE spells. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. I don't want to argue. Ghosts actually have to aim behind templars to be within FB range. FB range is 9, and the center of the EMP range is 10. Basically, the ghost has to make a mistake and the HT has to be spot on. Ghost won't die to storm. Storm does 80 damage over 4 seconds. I won't argue storm is easy to cast. EMP is easier to cast because it outranges storm by 4+2. If a 6 range advantage isn't significant to you, then I don't know what to say. Again, I used to play T. I'm not theorycrafting. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
@ that screenshot. If Terran enganges and his Ghosts are clumped up like this in his army, storm everything before he EMPs^_- He wants to EMP Templars at the back of your army and his ghosts just cant be at the back of his own army then.. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On September 24 2010 06:00 Solarii wrote: I sorta half-agree with you, but saying EMP is harder to pull off than feedback just doesn't sound right at ALL. Take a look at this screenshot: http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4964/screenshot2010092223093.jpg Just imagine how much accuracy and skill it takes to snipe a ghost with feedback (+1 skill if the ghost is cloaked) I'd rather waste my energy on storming than using feedback to snipe individual ghost. Exactly, which is why I say group a few ghosts with your ball and don't even bother to cloak. There's just no reasonable way for anybody not super-gosu to left click a specific unit in a moving bio-ball like that. | ||
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anafgncaap
9 Posts
Could load up a transport w/ some to hide them from EMP. | ||
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JDeathmetal
Netherlands81 Posts
Maybe at the highest level of play people will be fast enought to feedback ghosts, but you can't seriously tell me that if you have 3 cloacked ghosts you can't land emp's Thats just not treu, I've seen enough games to know its more then viable | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On September 24 2010 05:50 G.s)NarutO wrote: I'm sorry but your post is not worth more than a oneliner. You know I'm living with DemusliM right? I see him play against Protoss and I talk with him all the time. KiWiKaki (you should know him) players Stalker/Colossi or Gatewayunit / Colossi and once he hit 200/200 with it, you can try to kill it with Marauder/Viking. You talk big and I bet you've never played any Terran at all.. my post is not biased or one sided, I'm stating problems Terran players encouter. I didn't say that there's no counter to that, I'm saying that those strategies are STRONGER and Protoss is STRONGER than the Protoss players make it look like. Most Protoss saying its basically 1t1a with a drop at the same time, its not true. and I'm speaking of cannons right besides the Nexus, with a Templar there. You can try to find a way around, I already try to maximaze damage, but don't tell me a 4 marauderdrop can take out 2 cannons and a templar + Nexus in seconds, easily enough time (if not enough to shut down the drop) is bought. Edit: TvP in that aspect is the same as TvZ. Fuck up Zerg early, and expand after, try to go into a macrogame and you will probably die if they reach Mid+Late untouched. Thats Terrans advantage now. Not mid or late "MAPCONTROL" like you say. Edit2: If you are curious, check out HasuObs or Socke, both always put pylon+templar at watchtowers or cliffs. They have pylons all over, they can reinforce their army at any position on the map or sneak an HT to storm you, if you don't know what I'm talking about, stop crying about Terran.  Famous namedropping aside, ghosts have over twice the reach with emp versus a HT's storm. 2nd, unless you are pinned down for some other reason, you can always withdraw from a storm. 3rd, the arguement that you will always have too many or too few vikings is incredibly flawed. Even if you have too many vikings, odds are you still payed less for them than your opponent did for the colossi. Toss players have the same issue with building stalkers. 4th, if you are trying to drop on a nexus with a templar and photon cannons. You need to learn how to make better decisions. 5th, your summary of a PvT game is horrible and innaccurate. TvP and TvZ are completely different types of games for the P player. "Fuck up Terran early" is impossible against a good T because you have hands down the best defensive capabilities in the game, we can harass you in small ways, but a full scale attack is the easiest way to lose a game. We have no powerful air units vs. T that dont get destroyed by marine/viking other than sneaking in early void rays, so if we want to actually combat your army, we have to make a ground force. Thus we are at a mobility disadvantage if we go colossi and even more so if we go templar. If we take our army out of our base and try to pressure you with it, the defensive advantage of your units on a ramp, (marauders, siege tanks, vikings, can all hold off our army while you still have enough money to send 2 medivacs stuffed with marauders to our base to snipe our nexus/tech (provided you dont try to drop them on cannonsand a HT). The way you win a PvT game involves scouting your opponent, expanding to match his economy while defending your mineral line from reapers, banshees and medi-drops, and vikings, scouting his unit composition to create an appropiate counter army (i.e. HT's to counter marine banshee or MMM/G and immortals to counter mass marauder tank or MMT. And then waiting for him to move out so you can catch his forces out of position and destroy him for a quick win. alternatively, once the T player has a third base, you can begin to attack those bases to deny him additional resources and out macro him. I've played terran plenty, and unless the toss player staggers his templar, it is easy to drop an emp on them and runi his day. The range of psi strom is 5 btw. Edit: and 500/200 is not a lot to a toss player, its 4 stalkers, or a colossus and 2 zealots. I realize that subtracting those units from your army is a large loss, however, you have the luxury of leaving the rest of your forces in your base and still being fully capable of shutting down a protoss assault. | ||
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Surrealz
United States449 Posts
Your comment about the cost of a medivac + marauders for a drop is out of line. You are acting like its EXPECTED to lose the medivac and the units. Be glad its not like the protoss drop ship which doesn't even heal its units. Your arguments are weak and just throw out random "facts". "OH WELL THE VIKINGS KILL THE COLOSSUS BUT IT DOES TOO MUCH DMG FIRST" is an example of that. Complaining about the cost of a drop, etc. are reasons are why you are being singled out right now. You really need to take a step back and think about these issues before oversimplifying situations. edit- bobcat's post pretty much hit it spot on. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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Fraidnot
United States824 Posts
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On September 24 2010 06:22 G.s)NarutO wrote: I think Low Level , Mid and High Level PvT are all completely different and with different difficulties / problems. So there's no point in discussing on different levels. I don't know your level I'm just saying that on my level, I'm running into quiet some problems and I'm not able to completely walk over any Protoss with simple scouting ;-) Ok, but it's not because HT > Ghosts. Let's be intellectually honest: it's the other way around (on just about every aspect). | ||
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On September 24 2010 06:15 Surrealz wrote: Naruto, no one is calling you bad except that ignorant guy up there. We are trying to have a discussion with you about this very specific part of the PvT matchup and you are constantly changing your stance on the discussion, and basically telling us that we need to play these super players to understand basic game mechanics. You have offered us no compelling evidence so far pointing to an imbalance in PvT late game. Your comment about the cost of a medivac + marauders for a drop is out of line. You are acting like its EXPECTED to lose the medivac and the units. Be glad its not like the protoss drop ship which doesn't even heal its units. Your arguments are weak and just throw out random "facts". "OH WELL THE VIKINGS KILL THE COLOSSUS BUT IT DOES TOO MUCH DMG FIRST" is an example of that. Complaining about the cost of a drop, etc. are reasons are why you are being singled out right now. You really need to take a step back and think about these issues before oversimplifying situations. edit- bobcat's post pretty much hit it spot on. Love you too. I actually like the way you worded it better. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On September 24 2010 06:24 whoopadeedoo wrote: Ok, but it's not because HT > Ghosts. Let's be intellectually honest: it's the other way around (on just about every aspect). I already said. Ghost/HT mechanics are that both are a counter to each other. Besides that, Terran won't have as many Ghosts as you will have HT, so you can get out quiet some storms :-)! Edit: Thats a fact for everyone but BRAT_OK , who always has 30 Ghosts and 100 Marines.. but only 3 Marauders :D | ||
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
With all the name dropping you've been doing, I've reached a conclusion on why you find TvP difficult. The Protoss players you play against are simply better than you. It's not that Ghosts are worse than High Templars; you're just getting outplayed by Protoss players. I'm sorry but you don't have to be a top-tier player to do simple calculations. EMP has a longer range than Feedback (10 vs 9) without including the +2 range EMP gets with AoE. High Templars are in the back of the army, but guess what? Psi Storm has a range of 5 as well so they can be EMPed before they cast storm. But why stop there with the spell comparison. Since you're mentioning two spells, let's bring the default starting off spell for Ghosts: Snipe. It takes two snipes to kill a High Templar. Snipe costs 25 Energy and has a range of 10. OMG IT'S LIKE FEEDBACK BUT WITH EVEN LONGER RANGE. OH WAIT, IT'S EVEN BETTER THAN FEEDBACK BECAUSE IT'S A GUARANTEED KILL ON THE HIGH TEMPLAR, WHILE FEEDBACK ONLY KILLS THE GHOST IF IT HAS 100 ENERGY OR MORE. The only thing you said correctly is that Protoss players will have sight advantage over Terran... if the Terran doesn't have a Raven. Why would a Terran player not have a Raven at late-game? I don't know. But let's assume both players are top-tier instead of just the Protoss Player. The Terran player will have a Raven, and Observers will be killed. So both players have sight problems when it comes to head-on battles. Except Terran players can scan. So in a battle of sight, Terran actually has the theoretical advantage. Here are the actual Protoss advantages: warp-in reinforcements for insta-storms. This is the saving grace of Protoss players and what turns the battle in their favor. It's not unstoppable because you can kill them before they fully warp-in although it might be difficult spotting the High Templar(s) warping in when there's 10+ units warping in. PS: My grandmother's newphew's college roommate's girlfriend's best friend's second-degree cousin once saw Huk at a restaurant so I know what I'm talking about. | ||
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TibblesEvilCat
United Kingdom766 Posts
2 mv 6 mardas 6 marines 1 ghost 1 raven that should give u an inclin to my ammount of production buildings ratio aswell lol | ||
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Mrbustanut
121 Posts
On September 24 2010 06:05 G.s)NarutO wrote: I'm speaking of Mid or Lategame, where Protoss has 3/4 bases. I'm not exactly sure how good US Protoss are, but the ones I know are not good at all. HuK + KiWiKaKi are good/decent but EU Protoss are a LOT better in every aspect would be my call. Wow, enough Euro elitism? Totally ridiculous statement as well. | ||
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