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On September 24 2010 08:28 whoopadeedoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:19 DyEnasTy wrote:
Its been awhile since ive seen a bunch of probes, scv's, and drones argue with a higher posting veteran. Didnt side with anyone in particular till I looked at the newer players join date. Its almost as bad as reading the battle.net forums, where 1 or 2 good players get overwhelmed by a swarm of Command and Conquer champions.
But Naruto has a point. It can be difficult to EMP all the temps against a competant toss player. Usually, a good protoss will be very careful with his temps.
@ the person who said storm had 5 range, its actually 9.
So, its not that protoss has some imbal power over terran, but its just difficult. Does anyone else think its lame that emp is on the ghost? IMO it should be on the raven, and hunter seeker missile should be on the ghost. Sorry to derail. Psi storms range was 9 in BW. It started out in SC2 the same but was seriously nerfed (including the AoE radius and damage assignment ... it was very OP in early beta). It's not 9 anymore AFAIK (and from experience with it), and I think I'm right in that it's now 6, but maybe it's 5. At no time did I question Naruto's skill, although at 1500pt diamond, he's not really a top pro, no offense intended (there are a bunch of non-pros here above that). It's what he says that are highly dubious (to put it kindly). Don't fall for the logical fallacy of appealing to authority (his authority, btw, is highly suspect ... saying you live and play with a top pro does not make you a top pro).
Since when do points equal skill? I'm not a full time pro; I have a job and can't play that much. O.O
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On September 24 2010 08:28 whoopadeedoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:19 DyEnasTy wrote:
Its been awhile since ive seen a bunch of probes, scv's, and drones argue with a higher posting veteran. Didnt side with anyone in particular till I looked at the newer players join date. Its almost as bad as reading the battle.net forums, where 1 or 2 good players get overwhelmed by a swarm of Command and Conquer champions.
But Naruto has a point. It can be difficult to EMP all the temps against a competant toss player. Usually, a good protoss will be very careful with his temps.
@ the person who said storm had 5 range, its actually 9.
So, its not that protoss has some imbal power over terran, but its just difficult. Does anyone else think its lame that emp is on the ghost? IMO it should be on the raven, and hunter seeker missile should be on the ghost. Sorry to derail. Psi storms range was 9 in BW. It started out in SC2 the same but was seriously nerfed (including the AoE radius and damage assignment ... it was very OP in early beta). It's not 9 anymore AFAIK (and from experience with it), and I think I'm right in that it's now 6, but maybe it's 5. At no time did I question Naruto's skill, although at 1500pt diamond, he's not really a top pro, no offense intended (there are a bunch of non-pros here above that). It's what he says that are highly dubious (to put it kindly). Don't fall for the logical fallacy of appealing to authority (his authority, btw, is highly suspect ... saying you live and play with a top pro does not make you a top pro).
No it doesnt. But, living with pros will without a doubt give you better insight and less bias opinions (usually) than others. And the range accroding to liquipedia is 9, link here. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm#Patch_Changes
And I would take advice of a 1500pt diamond whos been around for awhile over a 2000pt diamond who has only been around since SC2 launch.
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with all that advanced technology that Protoss have...how did terran get EMP FIRST? =(.
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On September 24 2010 08:45 DyEnasTy wrote:No it doesnt. But, living with pros will without a doubt give you better insight and less bias opinions (usually) than others. And the range accroding to liquipedia is 9, link here. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm#Patch_ChangesAnd I would take advice of a 1500pt diamond whos been around for awhile over a 2000pt diamond who has only been around since SC2 launch.
It's not 9. You can test it out in-game yourself.
And the important part of your first sentence is the "(usually)." Naruto's case is an exception.
Being good at the game will make you far more credible, but by no means should it be the deciding factor on your knowledge of game balance. In fact, the reason being good at the game makes you more credible is because you have a better understanding of the game. But if you show NOTHING that indicates your superior understanding, then the weight of your words are no different from a bronze player. If a complete novice to the game can provide concrete supportive evidence that one unit is seriously imbalanced, I'd take his word over some veteran who has no real argument. As people have already stated the gist of Naruto's argument is as follows:
1. Pointless namedropping
2. Claims without evidence (eg: ghosts are harder to control when every statistic points otherwise)
3. Whimsical changes to his original argument
4. Europe is better
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On September 24 2010 09:06 MayorITC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 08:45 DyEnasTy wrote:No it doesnt. But, living with pros will without a doubt give you better insight and less bias opinions (usually) than others. And the range accroding to liquipedia is 9, link here. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm#Patch_ChangesAnd I would take advice of a 1500pt diamond whos been around for awhile over a 2000pt diamond who has only been around since SC2 launch. It's not 9. You can test it out in-game yourself. And the important part of your first sentence is the "(usually)." Naruto's case is an exception. Being good at the game will make you far more credible, but by no means should it be the deciding factor on your knowledge of game balance. In fact, the reason being good at the game makes you more credible is because you have a better understanding of the game. But if you show NOTHING that indicates your superior understanding, then the weight of your words are no different from a bronze player. If a complete novice to the game can provide concrete supportive evidence that one unit is seriously imbalanced, I'd take his word over some veteran who has no real argument. As people have already stated the gist of Naruto's argument is as follows: 1. Pointless namedropping 2. Claims without evidence (eg: ghosts are harder to control when every statistic points otherwise) 3. Whimsical changes to his original argument 4. Europe is better
Well im sure it couldnt be 5. And I wasnt supporting Narutos arguement of (or if) anything being OP. But, my slight counterlist to your list (number by number):
1: Everyone here seems to bring out their "rank" (example is the original poster). And if the best way to establish your credibility is by saying that you associate with regularly with top (or upper echelon) players, than its fine in my opinion.
2. Show me your "statistic points" about ghosts being easier to control other than the newbs (sorry for term) here in this thread. If HuK agrees, or another credible protoss, than ill consider it.
3. Well, I think this is a good point.
4. That point is irrelevent by Naruto and yourself. Ignore it.
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ya its pretty much a known fact that protoss is the strongest race. They own zerg with there chessy strategy's and terran as well. colusses with stalker dosent even need to micro at all just 1a your army and move focused colusses back while terran has to stim around micro vikings from getting owned that seems pretty fair. Protoss is jsut a 1a race.
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On September 24 2010 09:21 iamalegitnoob wrote:
ya its pretty much a known fact that protoss is the strongest race. They own zerg with there chessy strategy's and terran as well. colusses with stalker dosent even need to micro at all just 1a your army and move focused colusses back while terran has to stim around micro vikings from getting owned that seems pretty fair. Protoss is jsut a 1a race.
No, I disagree. TvP is fairly equal atm. PvZ? I think any problems there are due in larger part to Zerg needing fixes than anything being wrong with Protoss. I say that because TvZ is kinda one sided at the moment. So the problem, to me, is with zerg since both terran and protoss are fairly equal to each other. And both have an easier time against zerg.
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Personally, I go back to page 1 and read naruto's original post and can't find anything objectionable about it. For me it accurately describes my personal experiences playing against protoss.
If protoss survive it past the early game storm will melt everything unless you emp every last HT.
But saying this, is not a statement about balance in the least.
Not once does he make a claim about imbalance, and he actually does give a reason for why feedback might be easier than casting a successful emp on HT's. Whether you agree with that particular statement or not, or regardless if you think he was namedropping, I really don't understand the flaming when if you actually read the original post, it seems pretty reasonable.
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On September 24 2010 09:16 DyEnasTy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 09:06 MayorITC wrote:On September 24 2010 08:45 DyEnasTy wrote:No it doesnt. But, living with pros will without a doubt give you better insight and less bias opinions (usually) than others. And the range accroding to liquipedia is 9, link here. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm#Patch_ChangesAnd I would take advice of a 1500pt diamond whos been around for awhile over a 2000pt diamond who has only been around since SC2 launch. It's not 9. You can test it out in-game yourself. And the important part of your first sentence is the "(usually)." Naruto's case is an exception. Being good at the game will make you far more credible, but by no means should it be the deciding factor on your knowledge of game balance. In fact, the reason being good at the game makes you more credible is because you have a better understanding of the game. But if you show NOTHING that indicates your superior understanding, then the weight of your words are no different from a bronze player. If a complete novice to the game can provide concrete supportive evidence that one unit is seriously imbalanced, I'd take his word over some veteran who has no real argument. As people have already stated the gist of Naruto's argument is as follows: 1. Pointless namedropping 2. Claims without evidence (eg: ghosts are harder to control when every statistic points otherwise) 3. Whimsical changes to his original argument 4. Europe is better Well im sure it couldnt be 5. And I wasnt supporting Narutos arguement of (or if) anything being OP. But, my slight counterlist to your list (number by number): 1: Everyone here seems to bring out their "rank" (example is the original poster). And if the best way to establish your credibility is by saying that you associate with regularly with top (or upper echelon) players, than its fine in my opinion. 2. Show me your "statistic points" about ghosts being easier to control other than the newbs (sorry for term) here in this thread. If HuK agrees, or another credible protoss, than ill consider it. 3. Well, I think this is a good point. 4. That point is irrelevent by Naruto and yourself. Ignore it.
And this is why your reasoning is flawed. Just because a newbie presents information doesn't make it any less valid. It means there's a higher chance of his argument having holes, which is not the same thing.
Anyway, numbers speak for themselves. Ghosts have more range, guaranteed kills on HT with 2 snipes as opposed to feedback (both cost 50 energy).
The main Terran argument is that Ghosts cost 100 minerals more, which is nonsensical because either route Protoss has to take to counter the MMM ball is more gas intensive than MMM.
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Ghosts, snipe or emp will do. I recommend emp then snipe if you have multiple ghosts.
Or, switch from bio to mech. I would like more terran players pursue mech builds because the number of MM builds are overwhelming.
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Naming players that are good in my opinion and stating I'm playing with them shows what level I'm talking about.
How do you provide evidence about Ghosts being harder to control than high templars? Its personal impression from playing both, Terran and Protoss.
3. ...
4. First of all its my opinion and on the other hand, lots of top players and even players from US agree, lol.
you can continue to talk me down or think as a newbie of me, I really don't care. I just tried to explain TvP and that Ghosts is the weapon of choice against HTs, but not exactly a (perfect) counter.
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On September 24 2010 09:27 MayorITC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 09:16 DyEnasTy wrote:On September 24 2010 09:06 MayorITC wrote:On September 24 2010 08:45 DyEnasTy wrote:No it doesnt. But, living with pros will without a doubt give you better insight and less bias opinions (usually) than others. And the range accroding to liquipedia is 9, link here. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm#Patch_ChangesAnd I would take advice of a 1500pt diamond whos been around for awhile over a 2000pt diamond who has only been around since SC2 launch. It's not 9. You can test it out in-game yourself. And the important part of your first sentence is the "(usually)." Naruto's case is an exception. Being good at the game will make you far more credible, but by no means should it be the deciding factor on your knowledge of game balance. In fact, the reason being good at the game makes you more credible is because you have a better understanding of the game. But if you show NOTHING that indicates your superior understanding, then the weight of your words are no different from a bronze player. If a complete novice to the game can provide concrete supportive evidence that one unit is seriously imbalanced, I'd take his word over some veteran who has no real argument. As people have already stated the gist of Naruto's argument is as follows: 1. Pointless namedropping 2. Claims without evidence (eg: ghosts are harder to control when every statistic points otherwise) 3. Whimsical changes to his original argument 4. Europe is better Well im sure it couldnt be 5. And I wasnt supporting Narutos arguement of (or if) anything being OP. But, my slight counterlist to your list (number by number): 1: Everyone here seems to bring out their "rank" (example is the original poster). And if the best way to establish your credibility is by saying that you associate with regularly with top (or upper echelon) players, than its fine in my opinion. 2. Show me your "statistic points" about ghosts being easier to control other than the newbs (sorry for term) here in this thread. If HuK agrees, or another credible protoss, than ill consider it. 3. Well, I think this is a good point. 4. That point is irrelevent by Naruto and yourself. Ignore it. And this is why your reasoning is flawed. Just because a newbie presents information doesn't make it any less valid. It means there's a higher chance of his argument having holes, which is not the same thing. Anyway, numbers speak for themselves. Ghosts have more range, guaranteed kills on HT with 2 snipes as opposed to feedback (both cost 50 energy). The main Terran argument is that Ghosts cost 100 minerals more, which is nonsensical because either route Protoss has to take to counter the MMM ball is more gas intensive than MMM.
The funny thing is, is that you seem to be the one making claims about imbalance: "ghosts have more range etc." Why the hell are you bringing balance into the discussion? seeming to try and create an argument for how hard protoss have it.
There's an important difference between ghosts or HT's being easier/harder to micro than the other, and one of them actually being imbalanced. Maybe, HT's are harder to use but the reward is bigger? or perhaps the other way round?
To clarify, you actually think that the ghost/HT micro is imbalanced towards ghosts being stronger?
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On September 24 2010 07:59 Mrbustanut wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 07:52 Rabbitmaster wrote:On September 24 2010 07:04 Mrbustanut wrote:On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote:
Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well... EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units. Didn't germany have like vastly superior tech to other countries for most of WWII? Atleast they had the longest range rockets, the first jet fighter planes etc etc. Well Germany started the game much earlier and had already built up their tech. The US was behind in the food count at the start and had to play catchup. Japan tried to cheese the US at pearl but could not sustain the attack and eventually had to GG from the multiple nuclear launches detected events.
Actually Japan had already more or less GGd when the nukes went off, so it was actually just a major BM genocide..
For some reason people seem to think that there was a war between the US and Europe.. there has never been such a war.. ever..
Europe consists of more countries than Germany, and it's always been that way. (It's weird isn't it?).
Either way ghosts > HTs any day imo.. the spells are very similar, but in addition ghosts lock down HTs, and they outrange them on every aspect.
Furthermore ghosts only require ghost facility (or w/e it's called) while HTs need twilight council, templar archives, research storm and researched amulet to even be viable imo..
I'd be happy if ghosts required an additional 5 minutes of teching.
Same deal with vikings.. imo it's a slight bit too easy for terran to hard counter toss t3.. just switch from medivac to viking production, and it's all good.
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On September 24 2010 09:40 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 07:59 Mrbustanut wrote:On September 24 2010 07:52 Rabbitmaster wrote:On September 24 2010 07:04 Mrbustanut wrote:On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote:
Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well... EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units. Didn't germany have like vastly superior tech to other countries for most of WWII? Atleast they had the longest range rockets, the first jet fighter planes etc etc. Well Germany started the game much earlier and had already built up their tech. The US was behind in the food count at the start and had to play catchup. Japan tried to cheese the US at pearl but could not sustain the attack and eventually had to GG from the multiple nuclear launches detected events. Actually Japan had already more or less GGd when the nukes went off, so it was actually just a major BM genocide.. For some reason people seem to think that there was a war between the US and Europe.. there has never been such a war.. ever.. Europe consists of more countries than Germany, and it's always been that way. (It's weird isn't it?). Either way ghosts > HTs any day imo.. the spells are very similar, but in addition ghosts lock down HTs, and they outrange them on every aspect. Furthermore ghosts only require ghost facility (or w/e it's called) while HTs need twilight council, templar archives, research storm and researched amulet to even be viable imo.. I'd be happy if ghosts required an additional 5 minutes of teching. Same deal with vikings.. imo it's a slight bit too easy for terran to hard counter toss t3.. just switch from medivac to viking production, and it's all good.
Uhh your wrong on a couple counts. First, Japan wouldnt GG even after the first nuke. And second, US has matched up against Great Britian, and France. So ha!
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Regarding the posts about how ghosts outrange HTs, does this take into account the fact that you are playing with other units and geographic contraints. Going by blizzard's selection of maps for QM, almost all points on any of the maps are narrow enough to prevent spreading your army out or getting flanks using two separate control groups (There were articles about this before right? esp from Zerg players). It would be nice if I could manuever my ghosts arond the flanks of my army to get close enough to drop emps on the templars, but the maps don't really allow this.
The HT storms are also very complementary to the toss build since minerals are freed up for zealots, storms are anti-marine, feedback are anti-medivac, and marauders can't deal with zealots + stalkers.
Actually, someone said that Terrans should be the ones initiating engagements and that came as a bit of a revelation to me which I will try to do in future games. But in instances where I'm being engaged, my army isn't oriented (that is with ghosts in front or near the front) so that I can pull off an emp on the HTs.
Regarding HT's capabilities, I feel that they can be useful against pretty much all upper tier units in the terran army simply because all the higher tier units have energy. Ghosts, Medivacs, Raven, Banshee, BC, Thor all have energy. The feedbacks on Ghosts, Medivacs, Ravens and Banshees either kill the unit or render them useless for the engagement. Thors and BCs don't need the energy to still be threatening, so not so much of a problem there.
Ghosts on the other hand can only do so much with snipe and emps can't be used to kill only to take out shield and stop HTs.
A lot of ranting, sorry, just agreeing with some players. All in all I think that Ghosts and HT's cancel each other out, but HT's are still effective against other things beyond ghosts.
As for a possible solution, I've been playing with the idea of using hellions to keep the toss player's HT and Zealot count low as well as taking advantage of the hellion's speed to harrass. Generally I start with a 2rax into a factory getting pre-igniter ASAP and then using a group of hellions to take out as many light units as possible.
Here's a tentative BO
Orbital Opening
16 Rax(2)
16 Tech lab(1) on first Rax
16 Supply
Reactor on 2nd Rax (Pumping marines and Marauders for an attack force)
@5 Marines, 3-4 Marauders : Get Factory
@100% Factory, swap with techlab(1) rax(1), rax(1) gets another tech lab(2)
Research Pre-igniter
@100% Pre-igniter: Swap factory with reactor rax, pump hellions
I haven't really figured out the timings and I am writing away from my comp so I can't do testing on it, but "in theory" you will be able to snipe the HTs when their army is on the move (HTs are slower than every other unit) or force the entire army to move at the HT's pace. In terms of attrition, as long as you are trading hellions for HTs, you are winning. The hellions also have enough life to do damage in kamikaze attacks either on the probe line or stray light units.
It looks like it would be possible to control the toss player's unit composition since hellions would lead to less light units (namely zealots) and more armoured units while you prepare to switch tech to a more anti-armor army (whether or not something like that would work is probably situational at best). It would probably be best to figure out the timings of the initial MM force and perhaps pre-igniter to protoss builds so that you can maximize damage.
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is awesome32275 Posts
thread ran it's course.
to the graveyard!
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EPT
