I'm a ~900 diamond player. I generally clean up against protoss with one large exception: Toss players who make use of 4+ templars in battles, specifically their storm ability.
My builds tend to be either 3 or 4 rax opening, and from there I'll either double down on bio if he isn't countering it right or if I sense the win, otherwise I'll expand and build a factory and starport and mixup drops/banshee harass/ghosts/tanks/thor as my scouting dictates.
This results in me generally having armies with 2-5 mechs (be it tanks or thors), but the primary backbone still being MMM, with 4 or so ghosts if we've progressed to 15 minutes in game time.
Problem is, by that time, I'll move up and get ready to start the push, or do drops. But whenever I engage openly against a toss player with a respective force (zealot/stalker/high templare/guardians/1-2 collossi) I'll get fried by him casting 4-5 storms on my main army. I'll micro and run the bio out of there, but I feel there's just tooo much damage done. My main army will inevitably get obliterated, and unless i've otherwise map controlled or gone ahead in the resource race through my harassing attempts, it'll eventually be GG.
So my question is how do I deal with 900-1100 diamond toss players using high templars. I can't send my ghosts in ahead to snipe cause he'll inevitably have an observer. I have tried doing round about drops behind his back line but it inevitably takes too long (he'll have already fired off his storms on my main), and yes I've tried stimming and running out of it. But between the stim and the storm, it inevitably gets half my main down to half life. Now I try to do the same to his force with my ghosts, but it seems I lose out.
I'm looking for some protips on how to deal with high templar. Once I see them, should I be teching/trending toward any particular type of unit? (thors? BC's? more tanks?) Anything I can do besides dividing up my main and just plain micro-ing better?
Thanks in advance. Any posts to videos of effective battling against high templar would be great.
If toss has storms then you are required to always be the one initiating fights or you will get rolled by anyone competent. Snipe/EMP, if you do the snipe route a raven/extra scans and a viking or two are great for picking off observers they're really low hp and expensive for toss to continually make.
Brat-OK used to have a really amusing style where late game he abuse how easy observers are to kill and would literally end up with mass ghost cloak sniping late game.
EMP has a ridiculous range of 10 + 2 AoE radius. Abuse it.
Of course, don't just move in one hotkey group and a-move. Toss can't do this against good T, so T shouldn't be able to do this against Toss either. I don't want to start a race war, but I think too many Terran players think 1t1a MMM ball is all that is necessary.
Yea, the damned things die very easily; feel free to have a suicide squad of 3-4 vikings to snipe off observers with scans, since there probably won't be anything else in the air for 'toss, and a heavy zeal/templar army will lack significant stalker numbers to stop you from blowing the poor things out of the air in seconds.
After, feel free to terrorize the protoss player with 4-6 cloaked ghosts EVERYWHERE you can get away with.
Storm is very good in TvP, even with ghosts in play, you'll probably miss a few HT's and they'll inevitably hit you. However, your said you were up against an army of HT/ templar / guardian / zealot / stalker. The fact that he has both a dominant force of Collosi and templar signals something is wrong, that costs a ridiculous amount of time / money. Either you let him out expand you or you haven't pressured him enough in his more vulnerable stages. If you are talking about a game where an opponent goes the chargelots / storm route. I recommend frequent drops, ghosts to thin his HT numbers or banshees to snipe them. EMP out-ranges feedback so keep that in mind. I'd definitely recommend cloak later on in the game, Scan -> vikings snipe observers -> send in cloaked banshees / ghosts to take care of HTs. I've lost a lot to protoss in the past, until lately i've started doing 1-1-2 play. I feel that banshees on the field early shape his unit composition (they usually don't go collosi and it slows down their tech) fairly well.
In an open battle, have as many ghosts as he has HTs and keep them separate from your army, but close. You need to be ready to quickly cloak and EMP. Most likely the HTs are behind a wall of stalkers/zealots so when the battle begins it's key to flank the enemy army with your cloaked ghosts (even with observer) while your main army takes the enemy army. Seek out the HTs with your ghosts and EMP asap. Once he pulls the HTs towards your main army, you have maybe 2 seconds to act. Definitely a battle of who has the best micro. If you have ravens or extra energy for a scan you could make a priority out of taking down the observer so the ghosts are free to do their business. PDD will help distract the stalkers if they get to your ghosts.
You don't even have to cloak. Just keep them with or behind your ball and abuse the range. It's very hard to snipe ghosts with anything Toss has. Ghosts are psionic units and have no damage penalties, so anything but zealots require a lot of shots to kill them. EMP outranges FB, and EMP is an AoE spell (do you know how hard it is to click on a ghost in a moving MMG ball?).
You aren't likely going to stop every storm, but just move out of the one or two that Toss throws down.
learn and perfect ghost micro and try to build them reasonably early. if you are in a fight, do not move youre eye. even if you fail in the macro part, just add 1-2 barracks for gods sake. but fully concentrate about the fight. if you do good, and the toss can get only like 1-2 storms off, you should crush his army with your bioball. also, there is more ways of getting rid of templar energy. stim, attack, wait till he storms, retreat, maybe get some emps off. if you can win the micro fight. you win. if you lose the micro fight, you lose. thats pvt gamble.
the other option is, go for psi-resistent armies. thor, battlecruisers tanks, something among these lines.
I'm already sorry if this ends up being a wall of text, but I can't explain the situation in 1 sentence.
Terran has no proper counter to High Templars. You can scream and say "Ghost!" but its absolutely not true. High Templars and Ghosts are designed to counter each other which means that the Ghosts itself also gets countered by the HT.
There are different situations, usually Protoss has vision over your army if you don't have a raven with it (observer) and you won't have much vision over his. You can use scan but thats just a momentarely glimpse over his army composition and position. You want to scan before you engage to EMP high templars.
The main problem is, besides EMP being really strong. Its hard to pull of, harder to pull off than feedback. Everyone keeps saying EMP has more range than feedback which is only half-true. If you hit the Templar with the edge of the EMP area, you will hit first, if you put the HT in the middle of the EMP area, the feedback will hit you first. Thats the first problem you will encounter; the other problem is that high templars will usually (lets just assume for the sake of Terran, Templars are all clumped) be at the very back of the Protoss army; and you need the Ghosts to go in front to actually land EMP's on them. Problem with that? He gets vision of your ghosts earlier than you get vision of his HTs (even with scan beforehand) and you will have to cast EMP with a wall of Zealot/Stalker in front of you.
That usually leads to getting feedbacked or dying Ghosts before you even EMP properly ! Obviously EMP'ing the Protoss army is also really good, but what you really want to get are the templars. Also EMP'ing the army of Protoss is 'good' but its by no means equal to be as good as storm, because if you don't look for a second and get hit by storm, your army is gone.
Right now a lot of Protoss players are not good by any means, they are way too agressive and low on templar / storms.. but I think when Protoss players get better and know how to survive early the Terran players will have a huge problem.
Defensive Protoss with Templars (Feedback vs Medivac) and Storm or Cannons can shut down drop attempts easily. So if you are Terran, open with pressure, try to throw him off or kill him early, in lategame instant warpin ( storm ) and feedback will shut down harass and he will kill you later :o
Edit: If you don't know me. I'm playing vs Socke, HasuObs, Naniwa and other really good players more often than I'd like to haha.. :d
Edit2: I for my part think that TvP is hard because Protoss just has so many options that are viable. Void Rays do good vs nearly everything, especially when charged. Colossi+Stalker armies are really good, even if you have vikings (you will always have TOO many or too less.. so your other army part sucks balls). Storm is great AoE and you can always get off enough storms to make the bioball retreat or die (if you are good)
If you don't overcommit Carriers are also a good choice OR!!! just a few as support to your main army.
On September 24 2010 05:32 G.s)NarutO wrote: I'm already sorry if this ends up being a wall of text, but I can't explain the situation in 1 sentence.
Terran has no proper counter to High Templars. You can scream and say "Ghost!" but its absolutely not true. High Templars and Ghosts are designed to counter each other which means that the Ghosts itself also gets countered by the HT.
There are different situations, usually Protoss has vision over your army if you don't have a raven with it (observer) and you won't have much vision over his. You can use scan but thats just a momentarely glimpse over his army composition and position. You want to scan before you engage to EMP high templars.
The main problem is, besides EMP being really strong. Its hard to pull of, harder to pull off than feedback. Everyone keeps saying EMP has more range than feedback which is only half-true. If you hit the Templar with the edge of the EMP area, you will hit first, if you put the HT in the middle of the EMP area, the feedback will hit you first. Thats the first problem you will encounter; the other problem is that high templars will usually (lets just assume for the sake of Terran, Templars are all clumped) be at the very back of the Protoss army; and you need the Ghosts to go in front to actually land EMP's on them. Problem with that? He gets vision of your ghosts earlier than you get vision of his HTs (even with scan beforehand) and you will have to cast EMP with a wall of Zealot/Stalker in front of you.
That usually leads to getting feedbacked or dying Ghosts before you even EMP properly ! Obviously EMP'ing the Protoss army is also really good, but what you really want to get are the templars. Also EMP'ing the army of Protoss is 'good' but its by no means equal to be as good as storm, because if you don't look for a second and get hit by storm, your army is gone.
Right now a lot of Protoss players are not good by any means, they are way too agressive and low on templar / storms.. but I think when Protoss players get better and know how to survive early the Terran players will have a huge problem.
Defensive Protoss with Templars (Feedback vs Medivac) and Storm or Cannons can shut down drop attempts easily. So if you are Terran, open with pressure, try to throw him off or kill him early, in lategame instant warpin ( storm ) and feedback will shut down harass and he will kill you later :o
Edit: If you don't know me. I'm playing vs Socke, HasuObs, Naniwa and other really good players more often than I'd like to haha.. :d
Edit2: I for my part think that TvP is hard because Protoss just has so many options that are viable. Void Rays do good vs nearly everything, especially when charged. Colossi+Stalker armies are really good, even if you have vikings (you will always have TOO many or too less.. so your other army part sucks balls). Storm is great AoE and you can always get off enough storms to make the bioball retreat or die (if you are good)
If you don't overcommit Carriers are also a good choice OR!!! just a few as support to your main army.
This post is so one sided I cannot even believe you are a top tier player.
So you are saying templars arent easy to kill because you actually have to react before they get in range? You need to react fast, yes, just as the protoss has to rely on you NOT reacting to feedback you.
Also, Void rays are easily shut down by vikings and marines in the late game. You have to get to them before they charge. MAP CONTROL.
Collosi stalker armies are not good vs terran. Remember that a toss ball is only as good as the zealots backing it up. After that any and all armored units WILL die to marauders. Marauders + vikings beats this easily. If the toss is going too stalker heavy, punish him.
The problem with drops is cannons? If your opponent has his base lined with cannons go around them and find another spot. FORCE the issue if you really want to drop that bad. MMM drops are not the only thing the terran army has dude.
You are basically complaining about THREE different toss strats, each of which are easy to scout and has a viable response from terran. Stop massing just MMM and mix in other units if they have templar. You don't bring up any compelling evidence and your little statement at the end about the players you face in ladder does not make your post true.
I'm sorry but your post is not worth more than a oneliner. You know I'm living with DemusliM right? I see him play against Protoss and I talk with him all the time. KiWiKaki (you should know him) players Stalker/Colossi or Gatewayunit / Colossi and once he hit 200/200 with it, you can try to kill it with Marauder/Viking.
You talk big and I bet you've never played any Terran at all.. my post is not biased or one sided, I'm stating problems Terran players encouter. I didn't say that there's no counter to that, I'm saying that those strategies are STRONGER and Protoss is STRONGER than the Protoss players make it look like. Most Protoss saying its basically 1t1a with a drop at the same time, its not true.
and I'm speaking of cannons right besides the Nexus, with a Templar there. You can try to find a way around, I already try to maximaze damage, but don't tell me a 4 marauderdrop can take out 2 cannons and a templar + Nexus in seconds, easily enough time (if not enough to shut down the drop) is bought.
Edit: TvP in that aspect is the same as TvZ. Fuck up Zerg early, and expand after, try to go into a macrogame and you will probably die if they reach Mid+Late untouched. Thats Terrans advantage now. Not mid or late "MAPCONTROL" like you say.
Edit2: If you are curious, check out HasuObs or Socke, both always put pylon+templar at watchtowers or cliffs. They have pylons all over, they can reinforce their army at any position on the map or sneak an HT to storm you, if you don't know what I'm talking about, stop crying about Terran.
I don't understand why EMP is hard to pull of. The only thing that might trip a ghost up is a HT in the hands of a very high level player (such as yourself) who can accurately and quickly click F before Ghost can fire an EMP (EMP does outrange FB by 1 + 2 AoE, but that's small enough a margin that if T isn't paying attention or doesn't have line of sight, HTs can FB a ghost). But again, this requires very high level reflexes and mousing accuracy which anyone less than 1500 diamond really isn't inclined to have.
But the OP is asking about how to counter storm, and really, a storm has a range of six. EMP will easily take care of any HTs if what the toss player is using them for is storm.
I, at that point of high templers, have either enough ghosts or banshees to pick off templers. If they speed tech, you'd hope you had basic maurder/marine split army control to stim and run and split and just pick of some templers and fall back (its what I do at least..? lol im sure its horrible) I waste some troops to take out his temps, because assuming you have at least a raven or two for PDD it makes stalkers at least bearable, until they just blink away. I personally always have trouble with collsai, because I make too many ravens and not nearly enough vikings. I try to rush them, and they plain destroy me.
I'd say though, ghosts are your best bet. He'll still get storms off, and you'll get a LOT of emp's off and then, if all else fails, you can snipe his HTs or zealots out of battle rather easily.
I don't care where you are living, I am approaching your argument from a neutral stance.
Marauder + Viking is a suitable counter to gateway units + collosi. You are going to need to scout and adjust for how many collosi they have. If you are having trouble with that simple mechanic, I'm sorry.
You made no compelling argument that suggests that protoss is stronger, you just complained about the difficulties of executing your strategy (which you have even admitted is viable).
A cannon is right next to the nexus? Guess what bro, your drop doesn't have to snipe the nexus. Go snipe the core, the templar archives, gateways, assimilators, etc. The idea of a drop is not to just doom drop in and ravage their main nexus, its to keep them contained and NOT ATTACKING YOU while doing economic damage. If there are cannons by the nexus thats 150+ minerals he is spending on something you can ignore completely. Go snipe other buildings bro.
If you really want to drop, you are going to have to force the issue and not expect to simply snipe bases in under a second.
Again, please give me some compelling evidence and I will be more likely to agree with you. My ears are open.
BTW, I used to play T in beta. I'm certainly no pro (always a mid-high diamond player), but using EMP was never difficult. Again, this might be different at the highest levels of play, but EMP was pretty much a sure-thing for everyone not a pro (and really, in pro replays, I see EMPS going off on templars more often then not).
If you EMP (AoE 2) and put the Templar in the middle of that AoE feedback will hit before your EMP. And the Ghosts are not going within your army.. because they need to get in front because you want to EMP while attacking. If they are stuck within your bio ball, they will die to storm !
Its really a lot more tricky than you make it sound and storm is a lot easier to cast than EMP even though both are AoE spells. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. I don't want to argue.
On September 24 2010 05:32 G.s)NarutO wrote: I'm already sorry if this ends up being a wall of text, but I can't explain the situation in 1 sentence.
Terran has no proper counter to High Templars. You can scream and say "Ghost!" but its absolutely not true. High Templars and Ghosts are designed to counter each other which means that the Ghosts itself also gets countered by the HT.
There are different situations, usually Protoss has vision over your army if you don't have a raven with it (observer) and you won't have much vision over his. You can use scan but thats just a momentarely glimpse over his army composition and position. You want to scan before you engage to EMP high templars.
The main problem is, besides EMP being really strong. Its hard to pull of, harder to pull off than feedback. Everyone keeps saying EMP has more range than feedback which is only half-true. If you hit the Templar with the edge of the EMP area, you will hit first, if you put the HT in the middle of the EMP area, the feedback will hit you first. Thats the first problem you will encounter; the other problem is that high templars will usually (lets just assume for the sake of Terran, Templars are all clumped) be at the very back of the Protoss army; and you need the Ghosts to go in front to actually land EMP's on them. Problem with that? He gets vision of your ghosts earlier than you get vision of his HTs (even with scan beforehand) and you will have to cast EMP with a wall of Zealot/Stalker in front of you.
That usually leads to getting feedbacked or dying Ghosts before you even EMP properly ! Obviously EMP'ing the Protoss army is also really good, but what you really want to get are the templars. Also EMP'ing the army of Protoss is 'good' but its by no means equal to be as good as storm, because if you don't look for a second and get hit by storm, your army is gone.
Right now a lot of Protoss players are not good by any means, they are way too agressive and low on templar / storms.. but I think when Protoss players get better and know how to survive early the Terran players will have a huge problem.
Defensive Protoss with Templars (Feedback vs Medivac) and Storm or Cannons can shut down drop attempts easily. So if you are Terran, open with pressure, try to throw him off or kill him early, in lategame instant warpin ( storm ) and feedback will shut down harass and he will kill you later :o
Edit: If you don't know me. I'm playing vs Socke, HasuObs, Naniwa and other really good players more often than I'd like to haha.. :d
Edit2: I for my part think that TvP is hard because Protoss just has so many options that are viable. Void Rays do good vs nearly everything, especially when charged. Colossi+Stalker armies are really good, even if you have vikings (you will always have TOO many or too less.. so your other army part sucks balls). Storm is great AoE and you can always get off enough storms to make the bioball retreat or die (if you are good)
If you don't overcommit Carriers are also a good choice OR!!! just a few as support to your main army.
I sorta half-agree with you, but saying EMP is harder to pull off than feedback just doesn't sound right at ALL. Take a look at this screenshot: http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4964/screenshot2010092223093.jpg Just imagine how much accuracy and skill it takes to snipe a ghost with feedback (+1 skill if the ghost is cloaked) I'd rather waste my energy on storming than using feedback to snipe individual ghost.
I'm speaking of Mid or Lategame, where Protoss has 3/4 bases. I'm not exactly sure how good US Protoss are, but the ones I know are not good at all. HuK + KiWiKaKi are good/decent but EU Protoss are a LOT better in every aspect would be my call.
You can 2 shot Colossi with your vikings, and they will STILL deal enough damage to your bioball to threw you completely off. What evidence do you want and why are you talking about maindrops in early game where you can take out stuff. Because I talk about pressuring expansions to force the Protoss move his army while engaging other places, you simply CAN'T vs a good Protoss.
And at an expansions are no other buildings to snipe. By the way, I think Protoss players fail to realize that 4 Marauder + 1 Medivac means 500/200 which is quiet a lot, don't you think? Obviously untouched / unharmed Marauderdrops will be really cost efficient because they kill buildings so fast, but I've never hit mid/lategame against good Protoss who loses "lots" of stuff to 4 oder 8 Marauder drops, because they can reinforce anywhere, at any time.
As I said, its hard to explain without replays - but you will always have trouble against solid Protoss players. KiWiKaKi is from what I hear REALLY good with his army composition so.. maybe check out his reps^_^!
On September 24 2010 05:59 G.s)NarutO wrote: If you EMP (AoE 2) and put the Templar in the middle of that AoE feedback will hit before your EMP. And the Ghosts are not going within your army.. because they need to get in front because you want to EMP while attacking. If they are stuck within your bio ball, they will die to storm !
Its really a lot more tricky than you make it sound and storm is a lot easier to cast than EMP even though both are AoE spells. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. I don't want to argue.
Ghosts actually have to aim behind templars to be within FB range. FB range is 9, and the center of the EMP range is 10. Basically, the ghost has to make a mistake and the HT has to be spot on.
Ghost won't die to storm. Storm does 80 damage over 4 seconds.
I won't argue storm is easy to cast. EMP is easier to cast because it outranges storm by 4+2. If a 6 range advantage isn't significant to you, then I don't know what to say.
Than you've never encountered a good Protoss in midgame I fear :-)! You guys can call me bad, I really don't care.
@ that screenshot. If Terran enganges and his Ghosts are clumped up like this in his army, storm everything before he EMPs^_- He wants to EMP Templars at the back of your army and his ghosts just cant be at the back of his own army then..
On September 24 2010 05:32 G.s)NarutO wrote: I'm already sorry if this ends up being a wall of text, but I can't explain the situation in 1 sentence.
Terran has no proper counter to High Templars. You can scream and say "Ghost!" but its absolutely not true. High Templars and Ghosts are designed to counter each other which means that the Ghosts itself also gets countered by the HT.
There are different situations, usually Protoss has vision over your army if you don't have a raven with it (observer) and you won't have much vision over his. You can use scan but thats just a momentarely glimpse over his army composition and position. You want to scan before you engage to EMP high templars.
The main problem is, besides EMP being really strong. Its hard to pull of, harder to pull off than feedback. Everyone keeps saying EMP has more range than feedback which is only half-true. If you hit the Templar with the edge of the EMP area, you will hit first, if you put the HT in the middle of the EMP area, the feedback will hit you first. Thats the first problem you will encounter; the other problem is that high templars will usually (lets just assume for the sake of Terran, Templars are all clumped) be at the very back of the Protoss army; and you need the Ghosts to go in front to actually land EMP's on them. Problem with that? He gets vision of your ghosts earlier than you get vision of his HTs (even with scan beforehand) and you will have to cast EMP with a wall of Zealot/Stalker in front of you.
That usually leads to getting feedbacked or dying Ghosts before you even EMP properly ! Obviously EMP'ing the Protoss army is also really good, but what you really want to get are the templars. Also EMP'ing the army of Protoss is 'good' but its by no means equal to be as good as storm, because if you don't look for a second and get hit by storm, your army is gone.
Right now a lot of Protoss players are not good by any means, they are way too agressive and low on templar / storms.. but I think when Protoss players get better and know how to survive early the Terran players will have a huge problem.
Defensive Protoss with Templars (Feedback vs Medivac) and Storm or Cannons can shut down drop attempts easily. So if you are Terran, open with pressure, try to throw him off or kill him early, in lategame instant warpin ( storm ) and feedback will shut down harass and he will kill you later :o
Edit: If you don't know me. I'm playing vs Socke, HasuObs, Naniwa and other really good players more often than I'd like to haha.. :d
Edit2: I for my part think that TvP is hard because Protoss just has so many options that are viable. Void Rays do good vs nearly everything, especially when charged. Colossi+Stalker armies are really good, even if you have vikings (you will always have TOO many or too less.. so your other army part sucks balls). Storm is great AoE and you can always get off enough storms to make the bioball retreat or die (if you are good)
If you don't overcommit Carriers are also a good choice OR!!! just a few as support to your main army.
I sorta half-agree with you, but saying EMP is harder to pull off than feedback just doesn't sound right at ALL. Take a look at this screenshot: http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4964/screenshot2010092223093.jpg Just imagine how much accuracy and skill it takes to snipe a ghost with feedback (+1 skill if the ghost is cloaked) I'd rather waste my energy on storming than using feedback to snipe individual ghost.
Exactly, which is why I say group a few ghosts with your ball and don't even bother to cloak. There's just no reasonable way for anybody not super-gosu to left click a specific unit in a moving bio-ball like that.
why talk to a troll? Emp more difficult then feedback yeah right, Maybe at the highest level of play people will be fast enought to feedback ghosts, but you can't seriously tell me that if you have 3 cloacked ghosts you can't land emp's
Thats just not treu, I've seen enough games to know its more then viable
Right, I'm a troll :-)! Not everyone has cloaked Ghosts all the time, and you should have an observer with the Terran army. I'm not saying I'm playing at the highest level, but all Protoss I'm playing with are able to click fast enough to feedback.. and it shouldn't be a problem for anyone with more than 100 APM.
On September 24 2010 05:50 G.s)NarutO wrote: I'm sorry but your post is not worth more than a oneliner. You know I'm living with DemusliM right? I see him play against Protoss and I talk with him all the time. KiWiKaki (you should know him) players Stalker/Colossi or Gatewayunit / Colossi and once he hit 200/200 with it, you can try to kill it with Marauder/Viking.
You talk big and I bet you've never played any Terran at all.. my post is not biased or one sided, I'm stating problems Terran players encouter. I didn't say that there's no counter to that, I'm saying that those strategies are STRONGER and Protoss is STRONGER than the Protoss players make it look like. Most Protoss saying its basically 1t1a with a drop at the same time, its not true.
and I'm speaking of cannons right besides the Nexus, with a Templar there. You can try to find a way around, I already try to maximaze damage, but don't tell me a 4 marauderdrop can take out 2 cannons and a templar + Nexus in seconds, easily enough time (if not enough to shut down the drop) is bought.
Edit: TvP in that aspect is the same as TvZ. Fuck up Zerg early, and expand after, try to go into a macrogame and you will probably die if they reach Mid+Late untouched. Thats Terrans advantage now. Not mid or late "MAPCONTROL" like you say.
Edit2: If you are curious, check out HasuObs or Socke, both always put pylon+templar at watchtowers or cliffs. They have pylons all over, they can reinforce their army at any position on the map or sneak an HT to storm you, if you don't know what I'm talking about, stop crying about Terran.
Famous namedropping aside, ghosts have over twice the reach with emp versus a HT's storm. 2nd, unless you are pinned down for some other reason, you can always withdraw from a storm. 3rd, the arguement that you will always have too many or too few vikings is incredibly flawed. Even if you have too many vikings, odds are you still payed less for them than your opponent did for the colossi. Toss players have the same issue with building stalkers.
4th, if you are trying to drop on a nexus with a templar and photon cannons. You need to learn how to make better decisions.
5th, your summary of a PvT game is horrible and innaccurate. TvP and TvZ are completely different types of games for the P player. "Fuck up Terran early" is impossible against a good T because you have hands down the best defensive capabilities in the game, we can harass you in small ways, but a full scale attack is the easiest way to lose a game. We have no powerful air units vs. T that dont get destroyed by marine/viking other than sneaking in early void rays, so if we want to actually combat your army, we have to make a ground force. Thus we are at a mobility disadvantage if we go colossi and even more so if we go templar. If we take our army out of our base and try to pressure you with it, the defensive advantage of your units on a ramp, (marauders, siege tanks, vikings, can all hold off our army while you still have enough money to send 2 medivacs stuffed with marauders to our base to snipe our nexus/tech (provided you dont try to drop them on cannonsand a HT).
The way you win a PvT game involves scouting your opponent, expanding to match his economy while defending your mineral line from reapers, banshees and medi-drops, and vikings, scouting his unit composition to create an appropiate counter army (i.e. HT's to counter marine banshee or MMM/G and immortals to counter mass marauder tank or MMT. And then waiting for him to move out so you can catch his forces out of position and destroy him for a quick win. alternatively, once the T player has a third base, you can begin to attack those bases to deny him additional resources and out macro him.
I've played terran plenty, and unless the toss player staggers his templar, it is easy to drop an emp on them and runi his day. The range of psi strom is 5 btw.
Edit: and 500/200 is not a lot to a toss player, its 4 stalkers, or a colossus and 2 zealots. I realize that subtracting those units from your army is a large loss, however, you have the luxury of leaving the rest of your forces in your base and still being fully capable of shutting down a protoss assault.
Naruto, no one is calling you bad except that ignorant guy up there. We are trying to have a discussion with you about this very specific part of the PvT matchup and you are constantly changing your stance on the discussion, and basically telling us that we need to play these super players to understand basic game mechanics. You have offered us no compelling evidence so far pointing to an imbalance in PvT late game.
Your comment about the cost of a medivac + marauders for a drop is out of line. You are acting like its EXPECTED to lose the medivac and the units. Be glad its not like the protoss drop ship which doesn't even heal its units.
Your arguments are weak and just throw out random "facts". "OH WELL THE VIKINGS KILL THE COLOSSUS BUT IT DOES TOO MUCH DMG FIRST" is an example of that. Complaining about the cost of a drop, etc. are reasons are why you are being singled out right now. You really need to take a step back and think about these issues before oversimplifying situations.
I think Low Level , Mid and High Level PvT are all completely different and with different difficulties / problems. So there's no point in discussing on different levels. I don't know your level I'm just saying that on my level, I'm running into quiet some problems and I'm not able to completely walk over any Protoss with simple scouting ;-)
On September 24 2010 06:22 G.s)NarutO wrote: I think Low Level , Mid and High Level PvT are all completely different and with different difficulties / problems. So there's no point in discussing on different levels. I don't know your level I'm just saying that on my level, I'm running into quiet some problems and I'm not able to completely walk over any Protoss with simple scouting ;-)
Ok, but it's not because HT > Ghosts. Let's be intellectually honest: it's the other way around (on just about every aspect).
On September 24 2010 06:15 Surrealz wrote: Naruto, no one is calling you bad except that ignorant guy up there. We are trying to have a discussion with you about this very specific part of the PvT matchup and you are constantly changing your stance on the discussion, and basically telling us that we need to play these super players to understand basic game mechanics. You have offered us no compelling evidence so far pointing to an imbalance in PvT late game.
Your comment about the cost of a medivac + marauders for a drop is out of line. You are acting like its EXPECTED to lose the medivac and the units. Be glad its not like the protoss drop ship which doesn't even heal its units.
Your arguments are weak and just throw out random "facts". "OH WELL THE VIKINGS KILL THE COLOSSUS BUT IT DOES TOO MUCH DMG FIRST" is an example of that. Complaining about the cost of a drop, etc. are reasons are why you are being singled out right now. You really need to take a step back and think about these issues before oversimplifying situations.
edit- bobcat's post pretty much hit it spot on.
Love you too. I actually like the way you worded it better.
On September 24 2010 06:22 G.s)NarutO wrote: I think Low Level , Mid and High Level PvT are all completely different and with different difficulties / problems. So there's no point in discussing on different levels. I don't know your level I'm just saying that on my level, I'm running into quiet some problems and I'm not able to completely walk over any Protoss with simple scouting ;-)
Ok, but it's not because HT > Ghosts. Let's be intellectually honest: it's the other way around (on just about every aspect).
I already said. Ghost/HT mechanics are that both are a counter to each other. Besides that, Terran won't have as many Ghosts as you will have HT, so you can get out quiet some storms :-)!
Edit: Thats a fact for everyone but BRAT_OK , who always has 30 Ghosts and 100 Marines.. but only 3 Marauders :D
Naruto: With all the name dropping you've been doing, I've reached a conclusion on why you find TvP difficult. The Protoss players you play against are simply better than you. It's not that Ghosts are worse than High Templars; you're just getting outplayed by Protoss players.
I'm sorry but you don't have to be a top-tier player to do simple calculations. EMP has a longer range than Feedback (10 vs 9) without including the +2 range EMP gets with AoE. High Templars are in the back of the army, but guess what? Psi Storm has a range of 5 as well so they can be EMPed before they cast storm. But why stop there with the spell comparison. Since you're mentioning two spells, let's bring the default starting off spell for Ghosts: Snipe.
It takes two snipes to kill a High Templar. Snipe costs 25 Energy and has a range of 10. OMG IT'S LIKE FEEDBACK BUT WITH EVEN LONGER RANGE. OH WAIT, IT'S EVEN BETTER THAN FEEDBACK BECAUSE IT'S A GUARANTEED KILL ON THE HIGH TEMPLAR, WHILE FEEDBACK ONLY KILLS THE GHOST IF IT HAS 100 ENERGY OR MORE.
The only thing you said correctly is that Protoss players will have sight advantage over Terran... if the Terran doesn't have a Raven.
Why would a Terran player not have a Raven at late-game? I don't know. But let's assume both players are top-tier instead of just the Protoss Player. The Terran player will have a Raven, and Observers will be killed. So both players have sight problems when it comes to head-on battles. Except Terran players can scan. So in a battle of sight, Terran actually has the theoretical advantage.
Here are the actual Protoss advantages: warp-in reinforcements for insta-storms. This is the saving grace of Protoss players and what turns the battle in their favor. It's not unstoppable because you can kill them before they fully warp-in although it might be difficult spotting the High Templar(s) warping in when there's 10+ units warping in.
PS: My grandmother's newphew's college roommate's girlfriend's best friend's second-degree cousin once saw Huk at a restaurant so I know what I'm talking about.
On September 24 2010 06:05 G.s)NarutO wrote: I'm speaking of Mid or Lategame, where Protoss has 3/4 bases. I'm not exactly sure how good US Protoss are, but the ones I know are not good at all. HuK + KiWiKaKi are good/decent but EU Protoss are a LOT better in every aspect would be my call.
On September 24 2010 06:05 G.s)NarutO wrote: I'm speaking of Mid or Lategame, where Protoss has 3/4 bases. I'm not exactly sure how good US Protoss are, but the ones I know are not good at all. HuK + KiWiKaKi are good/decent but EU Protoss are a LOT better in every aspect would be my call.
Look at Morrow's replays. He does this 3 rax pressure expand build that can easily rape the Protoss if you get a good timing. I think the series was vs Huk, but he had a 40 food advantage before storm was finally done. In the other game he didn't push early enough, but still had a giant food advantage over the Protoss. If you somehow don't win the first push before storm, then start utilizing drops and spreading out the army and making the Protoss possibly waste storms on small amount of units or simply hold the storms to not storm small amounts of units and simply cripple him until you have a giant macro advantage
EMP? Seriously, emp completely wrecks protoss, not only HTs, but all their units... It's simply better than psi storm; it has more range, it can't be avoided, it does more damage most of the time and it consumes all the enemy energy. What do you need more?
I agree with Solarii, Emp is like checking where the HT's stands, while feedbacks are like a mini game of find Waldo lol. And HT's are pretty much useless if they spent their storm. Marauders can take a couple of storms before they go down so all in all Terrans are not disadvantaged
NarutO, long before Kerrigan was ever born there was another epic battle between Protoss and Terran. Except they weren't called by those names back then. We'll call the Terran army "Europe" and the Protoss Army "United States" for whatever reasons. The United States had this tool called "guns" which had a range of 100, while the Europeans used something called a "knife" which had a range of 1. However, the gun was more difficult to use because it required training and and aiming while a knife required a simple thrust. Plus, it's easier to miss with a gun than a knife. So obviously, the knife is a superior weapon to the gun. I used to be in the Army and I hung out with Major Pain, GI Joe, and Judge Dredd who all have high level experience with guns and knives so I know what I'm talking about. Trust me, knives > guns. Anyway, the year was 1945 and somehow the United States won with their inferior guns simply cause the United States had better players.
Anyway, comparing United States to Europe is like comparing which minor league team is better. PvT seems pretty even in Korea. But then again, I guess Korea has some shitty Protoss players compared to European players as well. Tester? Who the hell is that. NEXGenius? More like NEXProxyRax.
On September 24 2010 06:05 G.s)NarutO wrote: I'm speaking of Mid or Lategame, where Protoss has 3/4 bases. I'm not exactly sure how good US Protoss are, but the ones I know are not good at all. HuK + KiWiKaKi are good/decent but EU Protoss are a LOT better in every aspect would be my call.
Wow, enough Euro elitism?
Totally ridiculous statement as well.
How so. Name good Protoss players from US.
If you don't think Huk is an amazing protos player I don't think it's possible to convince you. You make it sound like there are 20-30 protos players in Europe that Huk can't touch.
On September 24 2010 06:05 G.s)NarutO wrote: I'm speaking of Mid or Lategame, where Protoss has 3/4 bases. I'm not exactly sure how good US Protoss are, but the ones I know are not good at all. HuK + KiWiKaKi are good/decent but EU Protoss are a LOT better in every aspect would be my call.
Wow, enough Euro elitism?
Totally ridiculous statement as well.
How so. Name good Protoss players from US.
If you don't think Huk is an amazing protos player I don't think it's possible to convince you. You make it sound like there are 20-30 protos players in Europe that Huk can't touch.
Technically HuK is Canadian, but he is part of the NA server. It all depends on whether naruto was talking about US the country or US the server...
Regardless, I believe that HuK is one of the best protoss in the world. Him and SeleCT constantly jump between first and second place in the world. Plus, HuK has the second highest win percentage in the world (behind dimuslim).
Relevant to thread: Someone should ask top 10 terrans what they do in this situation.
I don't see naurto placing too high in tournaments. I would say that HuK, Morrow, Idra, Dimaga, Demuslism, and other gamers that you guys watch replays of, is probably better to learn from or find out things from.
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote: Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units.
On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote: Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote: Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units.
LOL @ map imba
Anyways, you said it yourself, ghosts counter HT. But HT also counter ghosts. It comes down to who can micro and positioning.
Thanks for the response guys. My question is obviously by nature a bit general, because once you're playing decent diamond players so many things depend on the situation, it makes it hard for me to be exacting in my questioning.
As you guys have indicated, the issue is high templar and feedback/storm. I find most players at my level don't really use feedback, focusing more on spamming 4-6 storms on my main when there's that inevitable 100-125 supply main battle clash around 15-20 minutes into most TvP games.
I get that ghosts emp should be a counter, I think I will try out hte flanking approach mentioned above. My main issue is if you don't flank, your ghosts are going to get hit by that storm too. So while ya the storms dont kill anything by itself, it prevents my army from being able to win. Most times it'll be a narrow draw, or he'll emerge with his HT and several stalkers or otherwise still intact. When you then play that battle out 1 or 2 more times as he pushes towards me, he'll get the critical edge and be into my base.
I'm not saying its OP or anything, this is more just a thread about how to counter it, because it's really the only Protoss strategy that I don't think I understand the best counter for. Hence the [h] in the title
On September 24 2010 06:56 yourDaddy wrote: Technically HuK is Canadian, but he is part of the NA server. It all depends on whether naruto was talking about US the country or US the server...
Yeah, but most us Americans tend to think of Canada in the same way that we think about Nebraska or Vermont. For my part I see no difference between an American and a Canadian .
lol mate, i've never met a terran who had a problem casting emp on my HT's... you know how much accuracy and lucky i need to feedback your ghost? 1 emp can drain about 6 HT's if not more, thread should be closed tbh mate.
On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote: Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units.
LOL
I just registered on TL after stalking it for a while just so I could reply to this post. Good stuff...
Use emps man, it is infanately harder to hit a Ghost with feedback than using an AOE attack, aswell stroms are a much higher tech than bio obviously it is built to counter it, you're going to just have to transtition to a higher tech because bio rapes gateway units but it can't rape everything else too
On September 24 2010 06:22 G.s)NarutO wrote: I think Low Level , Mid and High Level PvT are all completely different and with different difficulties / problems. So there's no point in discussing on different levels. I don't know your level I'm just saying that on my level, I'm running into quiet some problems and I'm not able to completely walk over any Protoss with simple scouting ;-)
Ok, but it's not because HT > Ghosts. Let's be intellectually honest: it's the other way around (on just about every aspect).
Except ghosts can't be warped in anywhere... and cost 100 minerals more. Sure, your tech cost most, but 2-3 ghosts and we've matched and passed in minerals.
Maurader drops are ridiculously strong. Try it it works. Like only 1-2 medivacs.
Only maurarder drops I ever use is 8 with 2 medivacs, I feel 4 is just a shock and harass. 8 definitly take out probes and definitly take out nexus. Cost a lot, but works well.
Why do NO protoss players ever do a 2 templer 2 zealot drop on scvs anymore? It died in BW yet the one guy who did it do me wrecked me BIG time because he out expoed, upgraded, and produced me by taking out my econ every few minutes. He'd have a warp prism in my base to warm 4-8 zeals, storm drop my expo, and well thats all she wrote.
I'm not saying ones better or not, just saying we pay a LOT for a ghost.
If it were as easy as "just get ghosts" then no one would use HTs. At least my micro isn't good enought to emp them 100% before some storms hit. Also good players don't clump up their HT so you can emp all of them easily. I like to harass HTs with banshees (just dont forget to emp them first or cloak/decloak until their energy is gone) and try to force fights in open areas where i can move my units out of storms fast enought. Trying to force up ramps and through chokes against storms is obviously suicide. When games went really long I also had success with a whole squad of ghosts (4+) moving around cloaked and scanning for observers. Then you can just kill HTs and observers since they are both light and focus on emping actual fighting units.
I don't think HuK is an amazing PvT player.. He's great PvP and PvZ, but not so much in PvT. I think KiWiKaKi is good, as I already mentioned before. Tester & NEXGenious from Korea are both amazingly good. BTW I also think MakaPrime played bad against NEXGenius on LT. He had 3 base while Protoss had 2 (with a hidden expansion before his natural!) and lost because he either had vikings or medivacs, but never both.
Not saying Maka is a bad player , because he's absolutely not, but that game he just didnt play to his full potential.
Back to HuK, who I really like and who I think is a great and solid player, but he's not exactly a PvT specialist to be honest. I've never played against SeleCt so I can't judge about him and I also play either fast expo or 3 rax pressure builds to be ahead and screw Protoss early game, but sometimes 1 mistake costs you the games, yes, even as Terran.
On September 24 2010 06:58 -StrifeX- wrote: I don't see naurto placing too high in tournaments. I would say that HuK, Morrow, Idra, Dimaga, Demuslism, and other gamers that you guys watch replays of, is probably better to learn from or find out things from.
Yes, I don't place really high at lots of tourneys. I'm plainly worse than MorroW, IdrA, DIMAGA or DemusliM, but those are one of the best players in the world. HuK does well too, but last tourney I beat him to meet MorroW in the finals. I also have lots of top 4 results or top 8 in cups. And sometimes I have to WORK because some people forget that not all of us play as full time pros
Edit: I met HuK also in person and have him on my friendlist so.. if you read this HuK, its not talking shit about you, just my opinion and no hate ;O! I also think US Terrans are not as good as EU Terrans.
What I think you should do is get ghosts and banshees. Make sure the unit hp/energy indicators are on, and use the Banshee to snipe the HT's in combo with emp. It would also be useful to have mech. Although I dont know how reasonable this would be considering this might be alot of gas? I wouldn't know though, I play toss. :p
On September 24 2010 07:30 whoopadeedoo wrote: Basically, everyone not in the US thinks they're better than the US. But that's pretty much true about everything.
I never said US is like completely shit or anything. I just think the Terrans and Protoss are slightly better, with some exceptions. You act like I'm saying the whole US server is terrible.. :x
You have a nasty habit of changing your positions within this thread alone. Previously, you said EU toss players were "A LOT" better. Now it's slightly?
On September 24 2010 07:41 whoopadeedoo wrote: You have a nasty habit of changing your positions within this thread alone. Previously, you said EU toss players were "A LOT" better. Now it's slightly?
You really weigh my words.. don't you?-_- Well I'm out of here, just tried to help OP and explain the problems he could encounter, but everyone in here knows better :-)
I'm not a mind-reader. If you fail to express yourself properly, don't blame the reader. If I said EU players are A LOT worse than KR players, are you suppose to imply I only meant "slightly worse?"
BTW, you didn't really help the OP at all. All you did was 1. drop names, 2. QQ about Protoss being OP against your Terran, 3. Say EMP is not the solution (while not offering a solution) and 4. say EU is better than US.
On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote: Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units.
Didn't germany have like vastly superior tech to other countries for most of WWII? Atleast they had the longest range rockets, the first jet fighter planes etc etc.
On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote: Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units.
Didn't germany have like vastly superior tech to other countries for most of WWII? Atleast they had the longest range rockets, the first jet fighter planes etc etc.
The truth of the matter is the US cheesed their way to victory.
On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote: Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units.
Didn't germany have like vastly superior tech to other countries for most of WWII? Atleast they had the longest range rockets, the first jet fighter planes etc etc.
The truth of the matter is the US cheesed their way to victory.
To answer the OP, I think ghosts are the best option but they aren't really a hard counter. As has been said before, if they're already blanket storming you, it's a little late to emp. I think whoever has the initiative and better micro will come out on top of those large engagements. Just try to be diligent about killing observors and do lots of little drops. Try to control the towers and have some good map control, and I like to scan his army before I attack so I know where the Templar are.
The thread kind of turned to flaming over pro level games, but at your level (I'm around there too) better micro and map awareness will go a long way.
I used to think that terran was op and zerg up, before i saw gsl´s matches ... now i think zerg was up (dunno about now post-patch) and western protoss are up or koreans p (and t too) are op ...
On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote: Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units.
Didn't germany have like vastly superior tech to other countries for most of WWII? Atleast they had the longest range rockets, the first jet fighter planes etc etc.
The truth of the matter is the US cheesed their way to victory.
I think cloak ghosts are the solution, but the solution is not "Build Ghost, EMP, win" because a good Protoss will split Templars. If you lack skill or speed to properly put your army in position, don't blame Terran.
On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote: Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units.
Didn't germany have like vastly superior tech to other countries for most of WWII? Atleast they had the longest range rockets, the first jet fighter planes etc etc.
Well Germany started the game much earlier and had already built up their tech. The US was behind in the food count at the start and had to play catchup.
Japan tried to cheese the US at pearl but could not sustain the attack and eventually had to GG from the multiple nuclear launches detected events.
On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote: Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units.
Didn't germany have like vastly superior tech to other countries for most of WWII? Atleast they had the longest range rockets, the first jet fighter planes etc etc.
Well Germany started the game much earlier and had already built up their tech. The US was behind in the food count at the start and had to play catchup.
Japan tried to cheese the US at pearl but could not sustain the attack and eventually had to GG from the multiple nuclear launches detected events.
This is the first time I ever loled @ tl forum ... thanks
Its been awhile since ive seen a bunch of probes, scv's, and drones argue with a higher posting veteran. Didnt side with anyone in particular till I looked at the newer players join date. Its almost as bad as reading the battle.net forums, where 1 or 2 good players get overwhelmed by a swarm of Command and Conquer champions. But Naruto has a point. It can be difficult to EMP all the temps against a competant toss player. Usually, a good protoss will be very careful with his temps. @ the person who said storm had 5 range, its actually 9.
So, its not that protoss has some imbal power over terran, but its just difficult. Does anyone else think its lame that emp is on the ghost? IMO it should be on the raven, and hunter seeker missile should be on the ghost. Sorry to derail.
On September 24 2010 08:19 DyEnasTy wrote: Its been awhile since ive seen a bunch of probes, scv's, and drones argue with a higher posting veteran. Didnt side with anyone in particular till I looked at the newer players join date. Its almost as bad as reading the battle.net forums, where 1 or 2 good players get overwhelmed by a swarm of Command and Conquer champions. But Naruto has a point. It can be difficult to EMP all the temps against a competant toss player. Usually, a good protoss will be very careful with his temps. @ the person who said storm had 5 range, its actually 9.
So, its not that protoss has some imbal power over terran, but its just difficult. Does anyone else think its lame that emp is on the ghost? IMO it should be on the raven, and hunter seeker missile should be on the ghost. Sorry to derail.
Psi storms range was 9 in BW. It started out in SC2 the same but was seriously nerfed (including the AoE radius and damage assignment ... it was very OP in early beta). It's not 9 anymore AFAIK (and from experience with it), and I think I'm right in that it's now 6, but maybe it's 5.
At no time did I question Naruto's skill, although at 1500pt diamond, he's not really a top pro, no offense intended (there are a bunch of non-pros here above that). It's what he says that are highly dubious (to put it kindly). Don't fall for the logical fallacy of appealing to authority (his authority, btw, is highly suspect ... saying you live and play with a top pro does not make you a top pro).
On September 24 2010 08:19 DyEnasTy wrote: Its been awhile since ive seen a bunch of probes, scv's, and drones argue with a higher posting veteran. Didnt side with anyone in particular till I looked at the newer players join date. Its almost as bad as reading the battle.net forums, where 1 or 2 good players get overwhelmed by a swarm of Command and Conquer champions. But Naruto has a point. It can be difficult to EMP all the temps against a competant toss player. Usually, a good protoss will be very careful with his temps. @ the person who said storm had 5 range, its actually 9.
So, its not that protoss has some imbal power over terran, but its just difficult. Does anyone else think its lame that emp is on the ghost? IMO it should be on the raven, and hunter seeker missile should be on the ghost. Sorry to derail.
Psi storms range was 9 in BW. It started out in SC2 the same but was seriously nerfed (including the AoE radius and damage assignment ... it was very OP in early beta). It's not 9 anymore AFAIK (and from experience with it), and I think I'm right in that it's now 6, but maybe it's 5.
At no time did I question Naruto's skill, although at 1500pt diamond, he's not really a top pro, no offense intended (there are a bunch of non-pros here above that). It's what he says that are highly dubious (to put it kindly). Don't fall for the logical fallacy of appealing to authority (his authority, btw, is highly suspect ... saying you live and play with a top pro does not make you a top pro).
Since when do points equal skill? I'm not a full time pro; I have a job and can't play that much. O.O
On September 24 2010 08:19 DyEnasTy wrote: Its been awhile since ive seen a bunch of probes, scv's, and drones argue with a higher posting veteran. Didnt side with anyone in particular till I looked at the newer players join date. Its almost as bad as reading the battle.net forums, where 1 or 2 good players get overwhelmed by a swarm of Command and Conquer champions. But Naruto has a point. It can be difficult to EMP all the temps against a competant toss player. Usually, a good protoss will be very careful with his temps. @ the person who said storm had 5 range, its actually 9.
So, its not that protoss has some imbal power over terran, but its just difficult. Does anyone else think its lame that emp is on the ghost? IMO it should be on the raven, and hunter seeker missile should be on the ghost. Sorry to derail.
Psi storms range was 9 in BW. It started out in SC2 the same but was seriously nerfed (including the AoE radius and damage assignment ... it was very OP in early beta). It's not 9 anymore AFAIK (and from experience with it), and I think I'm right in that it's now 6, but maybe it's 5.
At no time did I question Naruto's skill, although at 1500pt diamond, he's not really a top pro, no offense intended (there are a bunch of non-pros here above that). It's what he says that are highly dubious (to put it kindly). Don't fall for the logical fallacy of appealing to authority (his authority, btw, is highly suspect ... saying you live and play with a top pro does not make you a top pro).
On September 24 2010 08:45 DyEnasTy wrote: No it doesnt. But, living with pros will without a doubt give you better insight and less bias opinions (usually) than others. And the range accroding to liquipedia is 9, link here. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm#Patch_Changes
And I would take advice of a 1500pt diamond whos been around for awhile over a 2000pt diamond who has only been around since SC2 launch.
It's not 9. You can test it out in-game yourself.
And the important part of your first sentence is the "(usually)." Naruto's case is an exception.
Being good at the game will make you far more credible, but by no means should it be the deciding factor on your knowledge of game balance. In fact, the reason being good at the game makes you more credible is because you have a better understanding of the game. But if you show NOTHING that indicates your superior understanding, then the weight of your words are no different from a bronze player. If a complete novice to the game can provide concrete supportive evidence that one unit is seriously imbalanced, I'd take his word over some veteran who has no real argument. As people have already stated the gist of Naruto's argument is as follows:
1. Pointless namedropping 2. Claims without evidence (eg: ghosts are harder to control when every statistic points otherwise) 3. Whimsical changes to his original argument 4. Europe is better
On September 24 2010 08:45 DyEnasTy wrote: No it doesnt. But, living with pros will without a doubt give you better insight and less bias opinions (usually) than others. And the range accroding to liquipedia is 9, link here. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm#Patch_Changes
And I would take advice of a 1500pt diamond whos been around for awhile over a 2000pt diamond who has only been around since SC2 launch.
It's not 9. You can test it out in-game yourself.
And the important part of your first sentence is the "(usually)." Naruto's case is an exception.
Being good at the game will make you far more credible, but by no means should it be the deciding factor on your knowledge of game balance. In fact, the reason being good at the game makes you more credible is because you have a better understanding of the game. But if you show NOTHING that indicates your superior understanding, then the weight of your words are no different from a bronze player. If a complete novice to the game can provide concrete supportive evidence that one unit is seriously imbalanced, I'd take his word over some veteran who has no real argument. As people have already stated the gist of Naruto's argument is as follows:
1. Pointless namedropping 2. Claims without evidence (eg: ghosts are harder to control when every statistic points otherwise) 3. Whimsical changes to his original argument 4. Europe is better
Well im sure it couldnt be 5. And I wasnt supporting Narutos arguement of (or if) anything being OP. But, my slight counterlist to your list (number by number):
1: Everyone here seems to bring out their "rank" (example is the original poster). And if the best way to establish your credibility is by saying that you associate with regularly with top (or upper echelon) players, than its fine in my opinion.
2. Show me your "statistic points" about ghosts being easier to control other than the newbs (sorry for term) here in this thread. If HuK agrees, or another credible protoss, than ill consider it.
3. Well, I think this is a good point.
4. That point is irrelevent by Naruto and yourself. Ignore it.
ya its pretty much a known fact that protoss is the strongest race. They own zerg with there chessy strategy's and terran as well. colusses with stalker dosent even need to micro at all just 1a your army and move focused colusses back while terran has to stim around micro vikings from getting owned that seems pretty fair. Protoss is jsut a 1a race.
On September 24 2010 09:21 iamalegitnoob wrote: ya its pretty much a known fact that protoss is the strongest race. They own zerg with there chessy strategy's and terran as well. colusses with stalker dosent even need to micro at all just 1a your army and move focused colusses back while terran has to stim around micro vikings from getting owned that seems pretty fair. Protoss is jsut a 1a race.
No, I disagree. TvP is fairly equal atm. PvZ? I think any problems there are due in larger part to Zerg needing fixes than anything being wrong with Protoss. I say that because TvZ is kinda one sided at the moment. So the problem, to me, is with zerg since both terran and protoss are fairly equal to each other. And both have an easier time against zerg.
Personally, I go back to page 1 and read naruto's original post and can't find anything objectionable about it. For me it accurately describes my personal experiences playing against protoss.
If protoss survive it past the early game storm will melt everything unless you emp every last HT. But saying this, is not a statement about balance in the least.
Not once does he make a claim about imbalance, and he actually does give a reason for why feedback might be easier than casting a successful emp on HT's. Whether you agree with that particular statement or not, or regardless if you think he was namedropping, I really don't understand the flaming when if you actually read the original post, it seems pretty reasonable.
On September 24 2010 08:45 DyEnasTy wrote: No it doesnt. But, living with pros will without a doubt give you better insight and less bias opinions (usually) than others. And the range accroding to liquipedia is 9, link here. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm#Patch_Changes
And I would take advice of a 1500pt diamond whos been around for awhile over a 2000pt diamond who has only been around since SC2 launch.
It's not 9. You can test it out in-game yourself.
And the important part of your first sentence is the "(usually)." Naruto's case is an exception.
Being good at the game will make you far more credible, but by no means should it be the deciding factor on your knowledge of game balance. In fact, the reason being good at the game makes you more credible is because you have a better understanding of the game. But if you show NOTHING that indicates your superior understanding, then the weight of your words are no different from a bronze player. If a complete novice to the game can provide concrete supportive evidence that one unit is seriously imbalanced, I'd take his word over some veteran who has no real argument. As people have already stated the gist of Naruto's argument is as follows:
1. Pointless namedropping 2. Claims without evidence (eg: ghosts are harder to control when every statistic points otherwise) 3. Whimsical changes to his original argument 4. Europe is better
Well im sure it couldnt be 5. And I wasnt supporting Narutos arguement of (or if) anything being OP. But, my slight counterlist to your list (number by number):
1: Everyone here seems to bring out their "rank" (example is the original poster). And if the best way to establish your credibility is by saying that you associate with regularly with top (or upper echelon) players, than its fine in my opinion.
2. Show me your "statistic points" about ghosts being easier to control other than the newbs (sorry for term) here in this thread. If HuK agrees, or another credible protoss, than ill consider it.
3. Well, I think this is a good point.
4. That point is irrelevent by Naruto and yourself. Ignore it.
And this is why your reasoning is flawed. Just because a newbie presents information doesn't make it any less valid. It means there's a higher chance of his argument having holes, which is not the same thing.
Anyway, numbers speak for themselves. Ghosts have more range, guaranteed kills on HT with 2 snipes as opposed to feedback (both cost 50 energy).
The main Terran argument is that Ghosts cost 100 minerals more, which is nonsensical because either route Protoss has to take to counter the MMM ball is more gas intensive than MMM.
Naming players that are good in my opinion and stating I'm playing with them shows what level I'm talking about.
How do you provide evidence about Ghosts being harder to control than high templars? Its personal impression from playing both, Terran and Protoss. 3. ... 4. First of all its my opinion and on the other hand, lots of top players and even players from US agree, lol.
you can continue to talk me down or think as a newbie of me, I really don't care. I just tried to explain TvP and that Ghosts is the weapon of choice against HTs, but not exactly a (perfect) counter.
On September 24 2010 08:45 DyEnasTy wrote: No it doesnt. But, living with pros will without a doubt give you better insight and less bias opinions (usually) than others. And the range accroding to liquipedia is 9, link here. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm#Patch_Changes
And I would take advice of a 1500pt diamond whos been around for awhile over a 2000pt diamond who has only been around since SC2 launch.
It's not 9. You can test it out in-game yourself.
And the important part of your first sentence is the "(usually)." Naruto's case is an exception.
Being good at the game will make you far more credible, but by no means should it be the deciding factor on your knowledge of game balance. In fact, the reason being good at the game makes you more credible is because you have a better understanding of the game. But if you show NOTHING that indicates your superior understanding, then the weight of your words are no different from a bronze player. If a complete novice to the game can provide concrete supportive evidence that one unit is seriously imbalanced, I'd take his word over some veteran who has no real argument. As people have already stated the gist of Naruto's argument is as follows:
1. Pointless namedropping 2. Claims without evidence (eg: ghosts are harder to control when every statistic points otherwise) 3. Whimsical changes to his original argument 4. Europe is better
Well im sure it couldnt be 5. And I wasnt supporting Narutos arguement of (or if) anything being OP. But, my slight counterlist to your list (number by number):
1: Everyone here seems to bring out their "rank" (example is the original poster). And if the best way to establish your credibility is by saying that you associate with regularly with top (or upper echelon) players, than its fine in my opinion.
2. Show me your "statistic points" about ghosts being easier to control other than the newbs (sorry for term) here in this thread. If HuK agrees, or another credible protoss, than ill consider it.
3. Well, I think this is a good point.
4. That point is irrelevent by Naruto and yourself. Ignore it.
And this is why your reasoning is flawed. Just because a newbie presents information doesn't make it any less valid. It means there's a higher chance of his argument having holes, which is not the same thing.
Anyway, numbers speak for themselves. Ghosts have more range, guaranteed kills on HT with 2 snipes as opposed to feedback (both cost 50 energy).
The main Terran argument is that Ghosts cost 100 minerals more, which is nonsensical because either route Protoss has to take to counter the MMM ball is more gas intensive than MMM.
The funny thing is, is that you seem to be the one making claims about imbalance: "ghosts have more range etc." Why the hell are you bringing balance into the discussion? seeming to try and create an argument for how hard protoss have it.
There's an important difference between ghosts or HT's being easier/harder to micro than the other, and one of them actually being imbalanced. Maybe, HT's are harder to use but the reward is bigger? or perhaps the other way round?
To clarify, you actually think that the ghost/HT micro is imbalanced towards ghosts being stronger?
On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote: Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units.
Didn't germany have like vastly superior tech to other countries for most of WWII? Atleast they had the longest range rockets, the first jet fighter planes etc etc.
Well Germany started the game much earlier and had already built up their tech. The US was behind in the food count at the start and had to play catchup.
Japan tried to cheese the US at pearl but could not sustain the attack and eventually had to GG from the multiple nuclear launches detected events.
Actually Japan had already more or less GGd when the nukes went off, so it was actually just a major BM genocide.. For some reason people seem to think that there was a war between the US and Europe.. there has never been such a war.. ever.. Europe consists of more countries than Germany, and it's always been that way. (It's weird isn't it?).
Either way ghosts > HTs any day imo.. the spells are very similar, but in addition ghosts lock down HTs, and they outrange them on every aspect.
Furthermore ghosts only require ghost facility (or w/e it's called) while HTs need twilight council, templar archives, research storm and researched amulet to even be viable imo.. I'd be happy if ghosts required an additional 5 minutes of teching.
Same deal with vikings.. imo it's a slight bit too easy for terran to hard counter toss t3.. just switch from medivac to viking production, and it's all good.
On September 24 2010 06:59 olias wrote: Woa now MayorITC,
You are sadly sadly mistaken if you think the second world war was the US vs europe. That is tragic if it is the level of education in America. EU tech was superior for most of the war as well...
EU went with a one gas build in WWII though so they were not able to tech as hard as America. Additionally with the map imba of being protected by the ocean America was able to fast expand and win the macro war by being able to produce more units.
Didn't germany have like vastly superior tech to other countries for most of WWII? Atleast they had the longest range rockets, the first jet fighter planes etc etc.
Well Germany started the game much earlier and had already built up their tech. The US was behind in the food count at the start and had to play catchup.
Japan tried to cheese the US at pearl but could not sustain the attack and eventually had to GG from the multiple nuclear launches detected events.
Actually Japan had already more or less GGd when the nukes went off, so it was actually just a major BM genocide.. For some reason people seem to think that there was a war between the US and Europe.. there has never been such a war.. ever.. Europe consists of more countries than Germany, and it's always been that way. (It's weird isn't it?).
Either way ghosts > HTs any day imo.. the spells are very similar, but in addition ghosts lock down HTs, and they outrange them on every aspect.
Furthermore ghosts only require ghost facility (or w/e it's called) while HTs need twilight council, templar archives, research storm and researched amulet to even be viable imo.. I'd be happy if ghosts required an additional 5 minutes of teching.
Same deal with vikings.. imo it's a slight bit too easy for terran to hard counter toss t3.. just switch from medivac to viking production, and it's all good.
Uhh your wrong on a couple counts. First, Japan wouldnt GG even after the first nuke. And second, US has matched up against Great Britian, and France. So ha!
Regarding the posts about how ghosts outrange HTs, does this take into account the fact that you are playing with other units and geographic contraints. Going by blizzard's selection of maps for QM, almost all points on any of the maps are narrow enough to prevent spreading your army out or getting flanks using two separate control groups (There were articles about this before right? esp from Zerg players). It would be nice if I could manuever my ghosts arond the flanks of my army to get close enough to drop emps on the templars, but the maps don't really allow this.
The HT storms are also very complementary to the toss build since minerals are freed up for zealots, storms are anti-marine, feedback are anti-medivac, and marauders can't deal with zealots + stalkers.
Actually, someone said that Terrans should be the ones initiating engagements and that came as a bit of a revelation to me which I will try to do in future games. But in instances where I'm being engaged, my army isn't oriented (that is with ghosts in front or near the front) so that I can pull off an emp on the HTs.
Regarding HT's capabilities, I feel that they can be useful against pretty much all upper tier units in the terran army simply because all the higher tier units have energy. Ghosts, Medivacs, Raven, Banshee, BC, Thor all have energy. The feedbacks on Ghosts, Medivacs, Ravens and Banshees either kill the unit or render them useless for the engagement. Thors and BCs don't need the energy to still be threatening, so not so much of a problem there.
Ghosts on the other hand can only do so much with snipe and emps can't be used to kill only to take out shield and stop HTs.
A lot of ranting, sorry, just agreeing with some players. All in all I think that Ghosts and HT's cancel each other out, but HT's are still effective against other things beyond ghosts.
As for a possible solution, I've been playing with the idea of using hellions to keep the toss player's HT and Zealot count low as well as taking advantage of the hellion's speed to harrass. Generally I start with a 2rax into a factory getting pre-igniter ASAP and then using a group of hellions to take out as many light units as possible.
Here's a tentative BO
Orbital Opening 16 Rax(2) 16 Tech lab(1) on first Rax 16 Supply Reactor on 2nd Rax (Pumping marines and Marauders for an attack force) @5 Marines, 3-4 Marauders : Get Factory @100% Factory, swap with techlab(1) rax(1), rax(1) gets another tech lab(2) Research Pre-igniter @100% Pre-igniter: Swap factory with reactor rax, pump hellions
I haven't really figured out the timings and I am writing away from my comp so I can't do testing on it, but "in theory" you will be able to snipe the HTs when their army is on the move (HTs are slower than every other unit) or force the entire army to move at the HT's pace. In terms of attrition, as long as you are trading hellions for HTs, you are winning. The hellions also have enough life to do damage in kamikaze attacks either on the probe line or stray light units.
It looks like it would be possible to control the toss player's unit composition since hellions would lead to less light units (namely zealots) and more armoured units while you prepare to switch tech to a more anti-armor army (whether or not something like that would work is probably situational at best). It would probably be best to figure out the timings of the initial MM force and perhaps pre-igniter to protoss builds so that you can maximize damage.
EPT
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