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Russian Federation81 Posts
![[image loading]](http://bourgy.com/images/not_this_shit_again.jpeg)
Hello guys, first of all: this thread is not much about balance discussion or TvZ whine or whatever. It's just my observations & thoughts, little bit influenced by the fact i play Zerg.
What i noticed from watching hasu+ replays, is that "Income" tab usually indicated about the same values for both players until mid game and further.. And number of "harvesters" usually going almost the same for both opponents until about 60+ supply mark, however zerg lead in harvesters not always warranties higher income.
Moreover, in particular TvZ example second hatchery doesn't shows a big diffidence if Terran uses Mules constantly, until Zerg saturate his natural by about 70%, after that profit really goes higher (big exception there is a gas which Terran can't mule).
As for Protoss, for most replays we can notice even higher harvesters rate than Zerg one (if Toss not performing some of allins) and over saturating his base with intention to move it out for the 2nd base when it completes).
I'm not saying it's OMG its imba, lets fix it, etc, cause Zerg still winning decently yet, but i just interested how the "myth" of "Zerg" superiority influences people, which is not actually that much true.
What i think that both T and P will start to dominate Zerg in future when game evolves enough and players will capitalize these Macro instruments as MULE and Chronoboost for probes to be always equal with Zegr or little bit slightly behind.
Why Zerg have economic advantage after all? Answer: they usually have more bases (1) and more drones (2), so they have higher income.
Also Zergs players psychologically favors for more bases than opponent and they usually have enough resources for that (3).
(2) actually is more or less a myth, from watching replays i noticed at late-mid or late game number of workers almost equals for both players.
(1) is a true right now, but i believe it will evolve. In fact zerg have almost same cost for making a base - 350 (count drone), and their bases don't have superior protection too. You may argue that they have larvae and spines so their bases could be protected more easily, but in fact, T & P have decent defense right now too (at least vs Zerg).
(3) Zerg economy favors for "burst" consumption, due the fact of Larva inject mechanics and overall. So they always have a "spare" minerals which they use to make a bases. T&P just trying to always produce a units and they can't afford much delay in that, that way they dont usually have resources for more bases.
Terran" PF & turrets makes impossible for zerg to harass, not mentioning to kill workers w/o crowd of like 2 packs of units.
Protoss canons (which people currently underused imo) + warp gates (warping HT anyone?) makes the same role - canons held on harassment, HT can keep enemies out untill main forces come.
The only real advantage for Zerg is that can produce lost of drones instantly if needs, but in standard game ppl dont lose too much harvesters, and just transferring it from one point from other.
Conclusion:
- P & T will get in future more bases and will just use more resources for defense for these "extra bases".
- P & T will start to produce harvesters constantly, preparing it for future bases. Now they're halt production at some reasonable time mark like mid game.
- Zergs player will evolve to that:
![[image loading]](http://baby.more4kids.info/uploads/Image/May/baby-crying.jpg)
UPDATE:
tl;dr
Toss & Terran don't making bases in amount that they actually could. Reasons - they're think they can't "afford" a new base and protect that, but in fact it seems that both races could get it for almost same cost, could get about the same amount of workers if making harvesters constantly, even if base already saturated, not only for your natural but for 3rd base too (for T compensated as a MULE) and have a perfect protection tools as PF or underused canons + warp gate.
also currently 1 base terran/toss = 2 base of Zerg by 10-12 minute mark due of full/over saturation/mules.
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A hatchery costs less than a command center or Nexus. 3 drones can be produced at the same time from one hatchery. (even more with queens helping)
It's only natural that they should have a bit of an edge in that regard. But you also have to take into account that a lot of those drones end up becoming buildings. And a lot of the time they'll get harassed and lose a bunch, which will even things out.
It's not too extreme, but they do have a naturally better economy for the most part. That's kind of the zerg "thing". So I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove here.
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I'm not an expert, but I think you're overlooking the importance of saturation. Gas income maxes out at 6 workers, and Minerals have diminishing returns past 16. Being able to spread workers between more bases means Zerg can potentially have a higher income even with the same number of harvesters.
On a lighter note, you can't deny that having a Dronegasm and making 7+ workers at the same time just feels good.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I really dont get this thread.
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Zerg's expansions are way cheaper considering that the hatchery doubles as production structures. A hatchery costs little more than 2 raxes and have roughly the same production capacity, so when the terran goes 3 rax you can go pool + hatch and you are not behind in military production.
And naked hatcheries are better defended than naked command centers or naked nexuses simply because of the creep surrounding it. The problem is not the economy or so, zerg definitely got the easiest to expand etc, the problem lies that the advantage of having expansions provide production as well do not outweigh the disadvantage of having overall weaker units than the other races. The next patch should fix these issues just fine.
Lastly this thread proves that some zerg players have already evolved into this:
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On August 29 2010 21:26 Voyager I wrote:
I'm not an expert, but I think you're overlooking the importance of saturation. Gas income maxes out at 6 workers, and Minerals have diminishing returns past 16. Being able to spread workers between more bases means Zerg can potentially have a higher income even with the same number of harvesters.
On a lighter note, you can't deny that having a Dronegasm and making 7+ workers at the same time just feels good.
Protoss player: "hmmm i think i need more probes....there we go chronoing 4 probes on the way, in a minute my income should be better now. hmm lets switch to my observer see what the zerg is doing (see's 8 drones all spit out) ..............................................."
thats what i imagine what other races do all the time 
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- P & T will get in future more bases and will just use more resources for defense for these "extra bases".
- P & T will start to produce harvesters constantly, preparing it for future bases. Now they're halt production at some reasonable time mark like mid game.
- Zergs player will evolve to:
Mutas deal with this already. T and P cannot expand over the map when Z has map control from ling/muta.
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I must admit im scratching my head.. you have a wall of text with no discernable agenda... thanks for the brain fodder?
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Actually I think its Zerg need more bases as the game progresses because their units are much less mineral/gas efficient.
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On August 29 2010 21:43 Meldrath wrote:
I must admit im scratching my head.. you have a wall of text with no discernable agenda... thanks for the brain fodder?
This. Though it was a very organized wall of text. With pictures!
Seriously though, try playing Terran in high diamond TvZ, unit imba aside. I feel a ticking countdown of doom the longer I play the zerg. Basically my thought process is this:
Did I force him/her [hereinafter referred to as male for simplicity] to make units/spine crawlers yet? Oh crap, he's probably already up 3 expansions! MUST HARASS now. He's probably got the gold by now.
Pretty much I'm giving myself a heart attack every 10 seconds to make sure I'm harassing the zerg into spending into an army, not drone whoring his best Idra impression.
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Russian Federation81 Posts
i updated post with tl;dr section.
just thought you guys need some food for thoughts (english not my native sorry :D)
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It is almost like the races are balanced economically.
Seriously what you just pointed to suggests the game is balanced. If zerg always had an economic advantage it would be an imbalance.
Terran has to waste a lot of mining time on buliding structures, they get the mule to make up for this.
Protoss get chronoboost which allows them to out econ Terran by a large margin if they don't use their mules.
Zerg has to lose drones to build structures so they get a mechanic that allows them to build more than 1 drone at a time.
The Zerg economic advantage is that if they dont' have to build any units they will out econ the others every time. If left alone and allowed to spend all larvae on drones they will always win the econ war. That is why people put constant pressure on the Zerg player to try to get him to make units and spine crawlers to slow his econ down.
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youre forgetting ton of things.
-Z can staturate way way faster.
-Z hatch is also production. hatch+ queen is like a cc + 3techlabd rax +techlabd facs for T
-Z has the best mobility
etc
wait till we hopefully get better&bigger maps where Z isnt constantly threatened by all kinds of pushes and where you really can expand across the map and make use of the mobility.
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don`t be afraid, the MULE wil be nerfed eventually, it`s ridiculously overpowered, it`s obvious.
in addition someday there will be a feasible minderal dump for Z because at the moment zerglings are extremely inferior to zealots and marines ... and they do cost precious larva.
patch 1.1 is pointing in this direction (warpgate cooldown).
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The mule is a bit insane but yeah zerg doesn't just get the economical advantage by expanding but they also get another unit producing structure.
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The real problem is that zerg can't take advantage of having more bases because all the drones you need for each base eats into your supply count. With 2 food roaches your army is going to be really small even without 70 workers.
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On August 29 2010 22:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
youre forgetting ton of things.
-Z can staturate way way faster.
-Z hatch is also production. hatch+ queen is like a cc + 3techlabd rax +techlabd facs for T
-Z has the best mobility
etc
wait till we hopefully get better&bigger maps where Z isnt constantly threatened by all kinds of pushes and where you really can expand across the map and make use of the mobility.
yeah sc2 would be quite a bit different if we started playing BW maps
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On August 29 2010 22:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
youre forgetting ton of things.
-Z can staturate way way faster.
-Z hatch is also production. hatch+ queen is like a cc + 3techlabd rax +techlabd facs for T
-Z has the best mobility
etc
wait till we hopefully get better&bigger maps where Z isnt constantly threatened by all kinds of pushes and where you really can expand across the map and make use of the mobility.
People most stop saying this. It's clearly not the truth and just nostalgia from BW
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OP is wrong in about every respect ever. His facts aren't even correct. Lots of terran and tosses employ MASS expanding. The reason people don't do this too often is because zerg lategame (read ultras) is so strong that you wan't to end it before it gets to that point.
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On August 29 2010 22:59 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 22:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
youre forgetting ton of things.
-Z can staturate way way faster.
-Z hatch is also production. hatch+ queen is like a cc + 3techlabd rax +techlabd facs for T
-Z has the best mobility
etc
wait till we hopefully get better&bigger maps where Z isnt constantly threatened by all kinds of pushes and where you really can expand across the map and make use of the mobility. People most stop saying this. It's clearly not the truth and just nostalgia from BW
there is one "slow" unit in the Z army. the hydra and only off creep.
Z units are the fastest on average, creep only boosts that, Z has the ability to put their whole army in dropships always , has most versatile air and the nydus which is only so underused cause the maps we play on are tiny and bad.
no matter how you look at it. Z has the by far best overall mobility of the 3 races.
the only thing thats similar is pure bio T. the second you add thors/tanks this isnt the case anymore.
imagine playing z on match point instead of steppes. if you dont see how superior Z mobility is then my post is futile anyways.
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Assuming no preasure applied in the early game , zerg will always come out on top econ wise , simply because Z saturation speed is insane, and extra hatcheries is already needed anyways.
However, in regards to SC2 however , i agree with OP, zerg econ is overrated.
Reason is because Z in sc2 needs so so so many more units to hold off early aggresions, spine crawlers are extremely weak compared to sunken colonies, and Z is missing what was the best (or 2nd best) early-mid defensive unit in the form of lurkers.
While imo T and P units got stronger in SC2 , Z got weaker, hence required to devote more larvae to defend early aggresion nowdays compared to before.
Still ,if left unchecked zerg will outmacro every single race , but against early aggresion zerg needs to devote a lot more to def compared to the other races. Hence losing out on econ.
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the only thing thats similar is pure bio T
Only with a big horde of medivacs. Bio is not a fast army for Terran unless it can constantly stim or it has medivacs to carry it.
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Idk sometimes I worry as zerg about having too many bases because that's a lot more workers taking up supply, and zerg units are not particularly cost effective against a similar sized army. Sometimes I grab expos just for gas and then defend gold bases.
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On August 29 2010 22:59 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 22:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
youre forgetting ton of things.
-Z can staturate way way faster.
-Z hatch is also production. hatch+ queen is like a cc + 3techlabd rax +techlabd facs for T
-Z has the best mobility
etc
wait till we hopefully get better&bigger maps where Z isnt constantly threatened by all kinds of pushes and where you really can expand across the map and make use of the mobility. People most stop saying this. It's clearly not the truth and just nostalgia from BW
Zerg is more mobile to an extent, but you are also partially right, it really depends on what options your opponent goes for. If T goes for Bio, they yes your response army, the muta/ling/bling, is indeed more mobile in my opinion. If T adds tank/hellions into the mix, you'd need roaches, which makes your army less mobile, so you are perfectly correct in that sense.
In ZvP muta/ling is mobile, but hydras are not... it once again boils down to what strategy your opponent uses. Vs pheonix heavy builds, toss is more mobile since hydras needs creep, So Z mobility is there.. but only if the opponent dictates play to be that way.
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On August 29 2010 22:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
-Z has the best mobility
Terran MMM have the best mobility BY far, stimmed infantry is so friggin fast.... Sure, we have speedlings.. great
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OP admitted English is not his native language, but I feel I sort of understand from what angle he is attempting to steer the conversation.
In a nutshell, whenever Zerg complains of weaknesses in their units, or poor cost effectiveness of their units etc. T/P will respond typically with "Zerg are the macro race, they can expand more easily". OP does not feel this to be as simplistic as the T/P players convey.
I also agree with the OP, and agree that it is good that the three races be as distinct as possible. However the typical arguments of Zerg expanding more easily, that hatcheries serve double duty, or that Zerg have more mobility (OT), are a little too simplistic.
EnderCN has put it very nicely (and succinctly as well) so consider his post the TL;DR version.
Just want to respond to a few posts so far in this thread.
@Klockan3
Naked Hatcheries vs. Naked CC/Nexus are pretty much the same thing. The creep can only spread around a hatch to the extent of the hatchery's vision range. I believe they all have the same vision range. It is not until additional creep is created that the expansion has additional vision. This is no different to a Terran player building supply depots at the edges of his expansion or a Protoss player adding pylons spread about to add vision. The only difference is that the Zerg creep tumor is hidden once it has firmly rooted itself. They are very weak with only 50HP vs 350/400 for the T/P alternative. Therefore naked in the true sense of the word, your argument is incorrect.
@TedJustice
RE: 3 drones being built at the same time. This is only true at the very start of the game - when you don't quite have enough money anyway hence a moot point. A new hatchery will only have 1 larva available at the time it has completed morphing. Subsequent larvae are made available at a rate of 1 per 15 game seconds. They are only created if the total amount of larva created by the hatchery is less than 3. Queen injections are another matter altogether and they are part of a different larvae pool.
Consider that an SCV/Probe require 17 game seconds to train and you are really only talking about a 2 second starting difference per worker. The only other major consideration is the CC --> OC upgrade prevents SCVs from being trained whereas hatch --> lair does not. But then OC upgrade takes 35 seconds and gives you mules whereas hatch takes 80 seconds so again, not directly comparable.
RE: hatch cost less than a CC/Nexus. True. 350 minerals and 117 game seconds to build vs. 400 minerals + 100 game seconds for either CC/Nexus. Hatcheries are 7/8th the cost of a Nexus/CC, take longer to build and have less than 7/8ths of the HP of either CC/Nexus. Therefore easier to kill.
@Voyager I
RE: saturation. You also need to be aware that a mule does not occupy a mineral patch, it is able to mine in conjunction with the SCVs and as such, mineral saturation with Terran's is a bit different to that of Zerg/Protoss. As for having more bases. Zerg units are quite gas heavy, without the additional bases, it would be impossible to be on even footing. If we use the generally accepted 1 gas = 2 minerals, then a Hydralisk is worth 4 marines, 4 marines will rape a single hydra.
@BeMannerDuPenner
Hatchery serving double duty as both production of harvestors/workers is not as swanky as you make it out to be. Sure it has it's benefits, but it also has it's drawbacks. You say that a hatch + queen ==> CC + 3 rax + 1 fac. It has nowhere near as many HP and as such, imagine if a single marauder drop could take down your CC, 3 rax and 1 fac as quickly as a hatch. Having a multipurpose building makes that building even more of an easy target. Let's not even forget that defending a hatch is not as simple since Zerg don't have any siege units. Remember that to win a game, you just have to destroy all enemy structures... Zerg have weak structures and as such a base race with a T/P if both sides have similar base destruction capability will "always" result in the zerg player losing. Zerg can never engage in a base race with a similarly equiped opponent. Versatility makes for vulnerability, that is the double edged sword of key building dependency. If you lose 1 rax, you can still pump SCVs and units from the 2 remaining rax + factory. If zerg loses their hatch... all of that ends.
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i share most parts of the thread creator's oppinion.
a way to come by the difference between theory and real use of Zerg macro mechanics is
the midgame-placement of additional hatcheries in your main. I mean, come on, P and T are
throwing mass gatways / rax at that point down to adapt the raised income to production abilities.
so the question is, why does every Z nowadays think, that every additional hatchery should be an additional expansion at the same time ?
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On August 29 2010 23:03 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 22:59 Numy wrote:On August 29 2010 22:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
youre forgetting ton of things.
-Z can staturate way way faster.
-Z hatch is also production. hatch+ queen is like a cc + 3techlabd rax +techlabd facs for T
-Z has the best mobility
etc
wait till we hopefully get better&bigger maps where Z isnt constantly threatened by all kinds of pushes and where you really can expand across the map and make use of the mobility. People most stop saying this. It's clearly not the truth and just nostalgia from BW there is one "slow" unit in the Z army. the hydra and only off creep. Z units are the fastest on average, creep only boosts that, Z has the ability to put their whole army in dropships always , has most versatile air and the nydus which is only so underused cause the maps we play on are tiny and bad. no matter how you look at it. Z has the by far best overall mobility of the 3 races. the only thing thats similar is pure bio T. the second you add thors/tanks this isnt the case anymore. imagine playing z on match point instead of steppes. if you dont see how superior Z mobility is then my post is futile anyways.
Nydus is underused because it relies on your opponent leaving openings and having poor response time. It only takes a single marauder or a few workers to destroy it once you hear that alarming roar. It is very gimmicky and as such cannot be relied upon for transportation other than to move units between bases... and at such a ridiculous cost as well. It is not much cheaper than a mothership for example. The units emerge from the worm 1 at a time at 0.5 game seconds each.
Compare this to motherships mass recall ability... that is the best mobility in the strictest sense.
As for pure speed. We ignore creep, just as we ignore stim, just as we ignore charge/blink.
equal 1st
Hellion 4.25
Phoenix 4.25
3rd
Reaper 2.93 with upgrade to 3.84 costing less than Zergling speed upgrade!
4th
Mutalisk 3.75
5th
Zergling 2.95 with ugprade to 3.54
6th
Roach 2.25 with upgrade to 3
equal 7th
Stalker 2.95
Ultralisk 2.95
Baneling 2.5 with upgrade to 2.95
Corruptor 2.95
11th
Dark Templar 2.81
equal 12th
Viking 2.75
Banshee 2.75
14th
Infestor 2.5
The rest are 2.25 or slower. Zerg don't make an appearance until 4th place.
Pure speed however is not the only determining factor in a battle. Being able to easily control your armies is just as vital. Having similar move speeds prevents certain units from being picked off before the rest of the army can arrive. Terran bio ball move as 1, protoss ball of death almost moves as 1 if you make sure stalkers are kept at the back (which you would generally want since they are the ranged units), zerg swarm have the faster units the ones with the shorter range which is great at minimising damage, but makes controlling them more finnicky than the other two races.
As for moving about undetected. Protoss and Terran both have cloaked units which do not have their speeds compromised once cloaked. Zerg Roach/Infestor get slowed down once burrowed. The roach is also unable to attack whilst burrowed.
All these differences are aimed at making the game more interesting/dynamic... but it also makes it hard to balance (OT). Blink/Charge/Stim come in to play during a confrontation, that is when speed is needed the most so to put a value on it in order to compare to creep is impossible.
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On August 30 2010 00:02 mAekS wrote:
i share most parts of the thread creator's oppinion.
a way to come by the difference between theory and real use of Zerg macro mechanics is
the midgame-placement of additional hatcheries in your main. I mean, come on, P and T are
throwing mass gatways / rax at that point down to adapt the raised income to production abilities.
so the question is, why does every Z nowadays think, that every additional hatchery should be an additional expansion at the same time ?
Agreed. Which is why we should see a shift sooner or later. It already happens on the Asia servers more often than here. e.g. Check will usually have 2 hatches at main.
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i share most parts of the thread creator's oppinion.
a way to come by the difference between theory and real use of Zerg macro mechanics is
the midgame-placement of additional hatcheries in your main. I mean, come on, P and T are
throwing mass gatways / rax at that point down to adapt the raised income to production abilities.
so the question is, why does every Z nowadays think, that every additional hatchery should be an additional expansion at the same time ?
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Zerg have always been low econ, just like in Brood War. Their units are so cheap and fast to make they don't need a superior economy.
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I've played zerg, and I've played terran... it is way easier to expand as a zerg player. and although this doesn't necessarily lead to a large amount of extra minerals, it allows for more gas. that's the major thing. in a lot of unit compositions, gas is more the limiting factor than minerals past the early game.
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On August 30 2010 00:04 hdkhang wrote:
5th
Zergling 2.95 with ugprade to 3.54
Where do this damn number come from? Zerglings with upgrade is 4.70 and is by far the fastest unit in the game.
Edit: Ah, it comes from sc2 armory, well that number is 100% wrong. Just make a test in game or go in the map editor and see for yourself, the zergling speed upgrade is the strongest speed upgrade in the game.
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Blizzard really slowed down Zerg a lot overall in SC2, pretty disappointing.
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Heres the deal.
2 base Zerg econ is usually pretty poor compared to toss and terran on 1 base. with chronoboost you are putting out your workers much faster, and these workers come at a constant rate. Sure Z COULD make 3 drones at a time, but its not really as common as you think, and to make the 3 drones at a time, you need the resources to do so unlike chrono boost that provides its benefit as long as you spent 50min on one probe now, then another 50 before its done.the first time a zerg can make 2 drones at once is when his overlord is made at 10/10. after that its back to 1 at a time until the queen comes out at 18. by 18 u have used 2 drones for buildings already (gas and geyser). in brood war you got a second hatch for larva, queen fills that role a little better now, however if anything its pretty much equal with BW hatch, where toss and terran get a boost in mineral gathering from the new mechanics whereas zerg doesnt. Also the queen slows down lair tech but is a must especially if on one base which is where 2nd hatch provides benefits.
Basically a chronoboosted nexus is putting out way more workers than zerg can early game, even when not making few units, and usually gets 2 bases saturated faster than zerg can get them saturated even though zerg expands early.
Only time zerg has an advantage is when taking a 3rd as they can saturate it much quicker than the other races assuming the minerals and larva are avaliable.
Zerg is not mobile, zerg units are not cheap in terms of cost/supply, and have no real economy advantage anymore.
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Terran has the best economy, by far. Mules not only allow you to have the best economy on a single base, BY FAR, they also do this at no supply cost. Whilst Probes and Drones cost 50 + 12.5 in supply Terran gets away with a freebie addon.
Also, Terran has the lowest risk from an expansion. In early game they can fast expand without losing their command center as no early game army can destroy one before it goes out of air range. Oh and late game, their original command centers still give them mules at a new expansion. I think this is wrong and should be fixed. Terran 3rd expansion can be 150% saturated instantly by calling 8 from your two previous CCs.
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In so many games, I go "well this zerg certainly is out macroing the terran with his 2 base to the Terrans 1". Then I take a look at the income tab and realize that because the Terran is spamming mules he's actually ahead of the 2 base zerg.
We've been seeing more and more of it lately in tournaments, games where a zerg and terran will trade alot of workers in harass or pulling for defense, and then the Terran will instantly win by spaming mules while the zerg tries desperately to resaturate.
I think the economy in ZvP is pretty balanced, it's only the economy in TvZ which sometimes really makes me feel sad. Mules are just so amazingly strong, having an instant super-worker for energy instead of minerals is just a kick in the balls for most zerg players, particularily in crisis situations.
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On August 29 2010 22:42 Ciddass wrote:
don`t be afraid, the MULE wil be nerfed eventually, it`s ridiculously overpowered, it`s obvious.
in addition someday there will be a feasible minderal dump for Z because at the moment zerglings are extremely inferior to zealots and marines ... and they do cost precious larva.
patch 1.1 is pointing in this direction (warpgate cooldown).
Yes, Terrans should get zero compensation for the fact that they have to spend significant amounts of time creating buildings and have BY FAR the slowest worker saturation rate of all three races.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Okay this thread isn't going anywhere good.
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EPT
