I can understand how some people can only trust science... As if we aren't lied to enough practically every day? but ive done the research looked at the interviews and to be frank the odds of Creation without a Creator* (sorry for the typo) as we know it today are 1 to 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Mathemations regards anything over 1 to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to be an impossiblity.
I have a friend to who was an atheist and he was studying the eye for many years. After 6 years he says it is by far impossible to have something so intricate and carefully designed come about by blind luck.
if you give 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 monkeys 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 typewriters they will produce the works of shakespeare.
well, probably not, but you know what i'm trying to say.
On May 30 2004 22:15 Ryan307 wrote: if you give 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 monkeys 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 typewriters they will produce the works of shakespear.
well, probably not, but you know what i'm trying to say.
I'm agnostic myself.
"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times ?! You stupid monkey!"
On May 30 2004 22:15 Ryan307 wrote: if you give 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 monkeys 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 typewriters they will produce the works of shakespear.
well, probably not, but you know what i'm trying to say.
I'm agnostic myself.
"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times ?! You stupid monkey!"
Really, i wouldn't spend to much time worrying about it. Live while you can, when you die, you'll die. if there's a higher power it will present itself. if not well, you wont even exist so you can't worry!
i got the impression that the author of this topic was a creationist.
Anyway, the problem with people who sit there and say "i just dont see how it can be done" is that they simply lack the insight to contemplate the thought of several billion years. Its just a number too big for them to grasp.
On May 30 2004 22:18 Ryan307 wrote: Really, i wouldn't spend to much time worrying about it. Live while you can, when you die, you'll die. if there's a higher power it will present itself. if not well, you wont even exist so you can't worry!
There are many people who swear God impacts their lives so it is not simply a question of the afterlife.
Hmmm... i was wondering something. The word "god" means "all mighty and powerful right?" or atleast describes a person who is. But... im all mighty and powerful to ants.. does that make me a god? If it does ya'll can bow down to me. Or does "god" mean, to have power over your fellow man? So god is just one of us..? So technically, he isnt a god, he is another being just powerful then us. Since with out us... who will he control... i guess he is content with his ant pile..
On May 30 2004 22:21 NewbSaibot wrote: i got the impression that the author of this topic was a creationist.
Anyway, the problem with people who sit there and say "i just dont see how it can be done" is that they simply lack the insight to contemplate the thought of several billion years. Its just a number too big for them to grasp.
Well u can go to university and learn how to study or you can read the bible and learn how to live... ive done both Harvard will teach you to take the bible's advice.
yes, like bush! i love that we have a president that prays for some time before going to sleep, and that the foreign policy of the most powerful nation on earth is determined by people who believe that evolution is a myth.
On May 30 2004 22:24 itzme_petey wrote: Hmmm... i was wondering something. The word "god" means "all mighty and powerful right?" or atleast describes a person who is. But... im all mighty and powerful to ants.. does that make me a god? If it does ya'll can bow down to me. Or does "god" mean, to have power over your fellow man? So god is just one of us..? So technically, he isnt a god, he is another being just powerful then us. Since with out us... who will he control... i guess he is content with his ant pile..
Just because you cannot explain how the local magician catches a rabbit in his hat does not mean it is due to divine intervention. I don't have time to worry about non-existent nonsens and neither should anybody who is not a mindless robot who without wonder or critical thinking take possession of the local superstition, whatever that may be depending on your location
On May 30 2004 22:26 Hot_Bid wrote: yes, like bush! i love that we have a president that prays for some time before going to sleep, and that the foreign policy of the most powerful nation on earth is determined by people who believe that evolution is a myth.
It says in the Bible "Thou shalt not kill" Thumbs up to Bush
On May 30 2004 22:27 Hicksville wrote: Just because you cannot explain how the local magician catches a rabbit in his hat does not mean it is due to divine intervention. I don't have time to worry about non-existent nonsens and neither should anybody who is not a mindless robot who without wonder or critical thinking take possession of the local superstition, whatever that may depending on your location
your opinoin is your opinion, but dont state it while berating others k?
Well I can definetly say the bible presents god as he is take for example the book of Daniel, It foretold the rise of medo-persia taking down babylon, greece taking down medo-persia, and rome taking down greece 500 years before while in babylon.
On May 30 2004 22:24 itzme_petey wrote: Hmmm... i was wondering something. The word "god" means "all mighty and powerful right?" or atleast describes a person who is. But... im all mighty and powerful to ants.. does that make me a god? If it does ya'll can bow down to me. Or does "god" mean, to have power over your fellow man? So god is just one of us..? So technically, he isnt a god, he is another being just powerful then us. Since with out us... who will he control... i guess he is content with his ant pile..
Stop lol
Too off topic? i just thought that since we are on the topic of god and what not. might as well :p
On May 30 2004 22:18 Ryan307 wrote: Really, i wouldn't spend to much time worrying about it. Live while you can, when you die, you'll die. if there's a higher power it will present itself. if not well, you wont even exist so you can't worry!
On May 30 2004 22:27 Hicksville wrote: Just because you cannot explain how the local magician catches a rabbit in his hat does not mean it is due to divine intervention. I don't have time to worry about non-existent nonsens and neither should anybody who is not a mindless robot who without wonder or critical thinking take possession of the local superstition, whatever that may depending on your location
your opinoin is your opinion, but dont state it while berating others k?
and what exactly to evangelical christians do with their opinions?
On May 30 2004 22:32 cjh wrote: These are questions nobody will ever have the answers to.
Excalibur_Z doesn't have them either, he's actually so far off it's sad.
But I think everybody would be best off if we were all atheists. Atheism isn't necessarily truth, but it is the one faith that doesn't promote violence, war, racism, generalized prejudice, masochism, murder, rape, terrorism, suicide, detrimental inhibitions, or misogyny.
Actually almost every religion in the world teaches tolerance, respect, and support for your fellow man. Not surprising that you didn't know this since you think every remotely religious person is a Bible-thumping maniac out to convert you.
On May 30 2004 22:32 cjh wrote: These are questions nobody will ever have the answers to.
Excalibur_Z doesn't have them either, he's actually so far off it's sad.
But I think everybody would be best off if we were all atheists. Atheism isn't necessarily truth, but it is the one faith that doesn't promote violence, war, racism, generalized prejudice, masochism, murder, rape, terrorism, suicide, detrimental inhibitions, or misogyny.
Actually almost every religion in the world teaches tolerance, respect, and support for your fellow man. Not surprising that you didn't know this since you think every remotely religious person is a Bible-thumping maniac out to convert you.
Teaching something and doing it yourself are two completely different things.
On May 30 2004 22:27 Hicksville wrote: Just because you cannot explain how the local magician catches a rabbit in his hat does not mean it is due to divine intervention. I don't have time to worry about non-existent nonsens and neither should anybody who is not a mindless robot who without wonder or critical thinking take possession of the local superstition, whatever that may depending on your location
your opinoin is your opinion, but dont state it while berating others k?
and what exactly to evangelical christians do with their opinions?
i dont know. im not an evangelical christian. but im talking within the realm of this forum.
On May 30 2004 22:27 Hicksville wrote: Just because you cannot explain how the local magician catches a rabbit in his hat does not mean it is due to divine intervention. I don't have time to worry about non-existent nonsens and neither should anybody who is not a mindless robot who without wonder or critical thinking take possession of the local superstition, whatever that may depending on your location
your opinoin is your opinion, but dont state it while berating others k?
and what exactly to evangelical christians do with their opinions?
I'm sure some of them just have it and keep their mouths shut.... I haven't met one yet but there's a lot of em out there... kinda
But as for non-existent nonsense, perhaps you need to think about this a little more. By your argument, not only would people not think about religion, most sciences, philosophies and just plain old thought would be things we "didn't have time" to bother with
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote: As if we aren't lied to enough practically every day?
but ive done the research looked at the interviews and to be frank the odds of creation as we know it today are 1 to 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Mathemations regards anything over 1 to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to be an impossiblity.
As if we aren't lied to enough practically every day?
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote: As if we aren't lied to enough practically every day?
but ive done the research looked at the interviews and to be frank the odds of creation as we know it today are 1 to 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Mathemations regards anything over 1 to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to be an impossiblity.
As if we aren't lied to enough practically every day?
On May 30 2004 22:55 cjh wrote: Excalibur_Z, let's get pages and pages of flame war out of the way...
Just tell me a story about how God has affected your life, that way I can dismiss you as a completely oblivious retard and summon the will to ignore every one of your posts in this thread.
perhaps you should listen to the opinions of someone not quite as pushy about this topic (no offense excal)
On May 30 2004 22:55 cjh wrote: Excalibur_Z, let's get pages and pages of flame war out of the way...
Just tell me a story about how God has affected your life, that way I can dismiss you as a completely oblivious retard and summon the will to ignore every one of your posts in this thread.
Why would I bother? You've already made up your mind. Mentioning something like that, whether it happened or not, would be useless.
On May 30 2004 22:32 cjh wrote: But I think everybody would be best off if we were all atheists. Atheism isn't necessarily truth, but it is the one faith that doesn't promote violence, war, racism, generalized prejudice, masochism, murder, rape, terrorism, suicide, detrimental inhibitions, or misogyny.
On May 30 2004 22:54 BroOd wrote: Not in the sense I was referring to, no.
explain please?
I wasn't making a broad social commentary, I had rather specific, obvious examples in mind, but as a general rule I try to abstain from theological discussion on here.
On May 30 2004 22:32 cjh wrote: But I think everybody would be best off if we were all atheists. Atheism isn't necessarily truth, but it is the one faith that doesn't promote violence, war, racism, generalized prejudice, masochism, murder, rape, terrorism, suicide, detrimental inhibitions, or misogyny.
Yes because Stalin was such an angel.
hussein too!
but ithink his pint is that while the practice of atheism doesnt stop racism prejudice etc etc, from being in a person it doesnt create it in that peson
Someday in the future, people will all look upon the various religions of today in the same manner scientists look upon the "gods" and religion of Greece. Even though greeks probably firmly believed in the existence and influence of many gods (sun god, sea god, god of war, etc.)...nowadays, its pretty much viewed as interesting, but nonetheless, nonsensical, myths.
We'll all have a good laugh at how gullible and vulnerable we really are . I am not trying to discourage religion... it is a very good guide to life and many people find comfort in believing in an afterlife. But one should take religion as just that... a guide to life... not the be all and end all of everything.
On May 30 2004 22:54 BroOd wrote: Not in the sense I was referring to, no.
explain please?
I wasn't making a broad social commentary, I had rather specific, obvious examples in mind, but as a general rule I try to abstain from theological discussion on here.
well it's ok, i think i have a general idea what ur talking about
On May 30 2004 23:18 secrtagent wrote: Someday in the future, people will all look upon the various religions of today in the same manner scientists look upon the "gods" and religion of Greece. Even though greeks probably firmly believed in the existence and influence of many gods (sun god, sea god, god of war, etc.)...nowadays, its pretty much viewed as interesting, but nonetheless, nonsensical, myths.
We'll all have a good laugh at how gullible and vulnerable we really are . I am not trying to discourage religion... it is a very good guide to life and many people find comfort in believing in an afterlife. But one should take religion as just that... a guide to life... not the be all and end all of everything.
On May 30 2004 23:18 secrtagent wrote: Someday in the future, people will all look upon the various religions of today in the same manner scientists look upon the "gods" and religion of Greece. Even though greeks probably firmly believed in the existence and influence of many gods (sun god, sea god, god of war, etc.)...nowadays, its pretty much viewed as interesting, but nonetheless, nonsensical, myths.
We'll all have a good laugh at how gullible and vulnerable we really are . I am not trying to discourage religion... it is a very good guide to life and many people find comfort in believing in an afterlife. But one should take religion as just that... a guide to life... not the be all and end all of everything.
Yeah, religion is a fantastic guide to life. "Put your penis into a woman's vagina and enjoy it, YOU WILL SPEND AN ETERNITY IN HELL ENDURING THE TORMENT OF A THOUSAND VICIOUS DEMONS AND FIERY BRIMSTONE, INFIDEL. SIEG HEIL"
Problem with sex is people just misuse it by not being married to person BEFORE they make love.. why do you think we have STDs? But although god may not approve of premarrital sex isn't it illogical to think he'd deliver us into a fiery hell to burn and burn and burn?? 1 John 4:8 says "...God is Love." Interestingly enough Romans 6: 7 says "He who has died has been aquitted from his sin." To be frank many many ministers have a hard time impressing the seriousness of sin to people so the clergy class had to come up with something to scare people into serving god... "Hellfire".
On May 30 2004 23:41 cjh wrote: Few of them are happy. Most are suffering on the inside.
Many of them will even readily admit that they are suffering. They simply state that they are more concerned with the eternal afterlife than they are with their lives on Earth.
Most of them are taught this bullshit from birth. Pounded into their heads as early as age 2, if you disobey the lord you will be forever damned to a Hell filled with the worst pain and suffering you could ever imagine.
Answer me this: If a girl is constantly told from age 2 to 14 that she is a worthless stupid trashy slut whore, how do you think the remainder of her life will be spent? She'll likely do a ton of drugs and alcohol and have many many sexual partners and probably be a rape victim a number of times, until she either dies or eventually decides to spend the rest of her life recovering from the horrible emotional trauma that she experienced age 2 to 14.
With religion it's a little different. Few people tell you that it's wrong and the ones that do are very easily dismissed as false, so people who have religion pounded into their heads from birth never recover. Instead they're like the girl who believed she was a worthless stupid trashy slut whore until she died.
It's not difficult to maintain faith when you're born with it being forced down your throat; just as it's expected that the girl would go on to lead the life of a worthless stupid trashy slut whore.
I could think of a few much better analogies than the one above, but I've already typed a ton so that's what you get. =[
The same thing could be said about being raised with Evolution in school, as well as sex, drugs, etc.
And seeing as you know very little about the religion (a few posts made it blatantly obvious), you have no clue when you say "Few of them are happy. Most are suffering on the inside." I mean that could be applied to anybody as well. How many TRUELY happy people do you know anyways? Double standards suck.
On May 30 2004 23:27 Ryan307 wrote: Have you ever wondered if there are creatures on planets far far far away who have all the answers? just a thought! :D
On May 31 2004 00:26 cjh wrote: Myself and most of my cousins attended private religious schools, and church on a weekly basis for a term of our lives. I've been around plenty of religious folk.
In my experience, it's gone like this... The ones that truly believe and follow their faith, are suffering. The ones that claim to believe but don't put too much of themselves into it (Excalibur_Z seems like he might fall into this group), can be happy.
I don't know why most of your posts take a stab at me, but whatever. Don't think for a minute you know anything about me =] I'm just 1s and 0s to you!
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote: I have a friend to who was an atheist and he was studying the eye for many years. After 6 years he says it is by far impossible to have something so intricate and carefully designed come about by blind luck.
What's more intrincate, an eye or a god that made the eye and everything else on the universe? We started with one thing we can't explain and you finished with two things we can't explain.
Negative. We started with 1203896345 things we can't explain (basically I'm saing we can't explain anything) and ended with one thing we can't explain, God.
um. u dont know whats "beyond" the universe (if anything) , what is before, or after, or how it works, if it does, etc. so it could be a 1 in infinite chance over infinite time.. and still happens. simple. the only way creationist arguments like the one that started this thread get any merit is by using conspiracy theories to justify a belief that the earth and the universe etc. are much younger than they seem to be
On May 31 2004 01:29 Klogon wrote: Negative. We started with 1203896345 things we can't explain (basically I'm saing we can't explain anything) and ended with one thing we can't explain, God.
If you can count the universe as 1203896345 things I can count God as 120389634500000000 things, for God is much more complex than the universe. The main difference is that we know for sure that the universe exists.
That's getting really old STIME d okgm fish, it's basically a list of people you don't like. In no particular order, and the fact that you say "any similarity with my sig and an actual names is pure coincidental" is purely full of bullshit.
Anything I just wrote according to STIMEY d okgm fish, and STIMEY d okgm fish's profile in this post is purely coincidental.
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote: the odds of Creation without a Creator* (sorry for the typo) as we know it today are 1 to 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Suppose u had a random number generator that had a range of 1 - 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.
Although it's highly unlikly to generate, say, '7', if it did, then it's a fact that it generated it.
also suppose u threw a dice 10000000000000 times. u got some sequence of numbers, that the chances of getting this exact same sequence is 1/100000000000. that's not an amazingly lucky coiciedence, thats just what happened.
Mathemations regards anything over 1 to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to be an impossiblity.
thats bullshit. Mathemations regards anything over 1 IN 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to have a possibility of 1 IN 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
On May 30 2004 22:32 cjh wrote: These are questions nobody will ever have the answers to.
Excalibur_Z doesn't have them either, he's actually so far off it's sad.
But I think everybody would be best off if we were all atheists. Atheism isn't necessarily truth, but it is the one faith that doesn't promote violence, war, racism, generalized prejudice, masochism, murder, rape, terrorism, suicide, detrimental inhibitions, or misogyny.
And Christianity promotes these?You should really learn more about it..
U think Universe cant exist without Divine intervention, but then God must exist before, and then we have the same problem, how god exist? Becouse if he can create the Universe, he is much more complex than Universe is. So possibilitties of God existing are by far lower than Universe existing without God.
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote:but ive done the research looked at the interviews and to be frank the odds of Creation without a Creator* (sorry for the typo) as we know it today are 1 to 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Mathemations regards anything over 1 to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to be an impossiblity. Jace
I'd love to see how you "researched" this... Like every other bullshit christian fundamentalist I can only assume you were reasing children's books about magic (Harry Potter anyone???) and some fake statistic caught your eye that you decided to inflate.
The Romans had a religion... You consider it foolish and wrong now.
The Greeks had a religion... You consider it foolish and wrong now.
The Muslims have a religion... You consider it foolish and wrong now.
The Hindus have a religion... You consider it foolish and wrong now.
All these religions... and all you eventually agree on is some "eternal" being controls and created everything.
Where's here's the most basic question for you: Where did he come from?
And when you answer, he has always existed for he is the forever... I answer with, you're own proof that creation exists without a creator is prrof that a creator could not exist without any other form of existence.
Consciousness is beyond current human understanding... and people need to throw away their worthless views of "religion" as an answer and either accept that as sentient beings you face insanity on a daily basis dealing with your own intelligence. Religion is a false comfort, there is no afterlife, what you accomplish in life is what you accomplish... You're legacy is based purely on your commitement to excellence.
Anyway, if anyone reads this and cares to argue I will prove them to be a moron beyond all question of the word moron.
There are many people who swear God impacts their lives so it is not simply a question of the afterlife.
Yah ... And I swear the roulette wheel landing on Odd efefcts my life, yet I don't go sit in a building for an hour each week and fidgit beacause of it do I?
There are many people who swear God impacts their lives so it is not simply a question of the afterlife.
Yah ... And I swear the roulette wheel landing on Odd efefcts my life, yet I don't go sit in a building for an hour each week and fidgit beacause of it do I?
u would if you believed the roulette wheel wanted you to or promised rewards far exceeding anything that can ever happen in ur human existence wouldnt u? but how the fuck do you end up believing something like that anyways? myth and supersticion?
Beyond an existence than I can describe no better than "comfortable" (I have never wanted for anythign in my life) I have never seen any existence of a "GoD" figure. To comprehend such a being is beyond anything I can think of... I've done some crazy drugs and my mind has considered some things that I can only assume you would think to be insane... I think I have legally been insane for a time, but in the end it always comes back to people use GoD as an excuse to be lazy.
They beleive in a second chance if they half-ass be good in this life, a forevermore... What earned them this second chance? Their sloth? Their Greed? Their own deadly sins call them down, I shun devout christians and those without the ability to acknowledge their mortalitiy.
the thing is, each one fo us gets imprinted with a set of basic beliefs and values during our first years of life. it's called symbolic violence. the intricate mechanics of society make it so that our parents (mothers especially) shape us in a certain direction that works for the society in question. for instance, an arab family will 'arabize' its children, in the same way that every family in every part of the world will thend to shape its children the way they were shaped... it's like society has some kind of collective norms, a matrix so to say, that gets grafted into each one of us. the particular, regional society each of us live in is the result of many many years of evolution, and the fact that we exist confirms that society has evolved in a good way, ensuring survival, therefore, it created this mechanism to preserve itself and protect itself at the same time from outside disturbance (such as other societies). from nature's point of view, good means anything that ensures survival. while we have developed a set of morals, unfortunately none of us really live to them, i.e. enforce them rather than the classic set of morals we were trained with, because that is the whole point of symbolic violence... it teaches all individuals in a specific region to act the same, think the same (i'm reffering to fundamental items, not favourite colors), preserve the characteristics of the place we grew up in. that's why christian families impose christian values on their children, even if the bible says that we have free will, therefore negating the 'free will' part (i bet all christians will try to argue that i'm very wrong, and that is absolutely normal, they were trained this way). that's why americans are so damn proud to be americans, that's why people fight wars, they were trained to value their religion, their race, their nationality higher than the general human values. and those mechanism, the ones put in place in our early days, are the most efficient way for society to preserve itself. those inhibitors work above reason, above will. if all the people would have the strength to think above those, above religion or color, the world would truly be a better place. but unfortunately, we are all trained to hold our own values higher than others' values, and the worst thing yet is that we cannot accept any others, even when reason makes us see that we are wrong. if i were to post 100 incosistencies in the bible, which is supposed to be perfect, as it is god's word, and god is perfect, therefore proving that christianity is wrong (seeing how religions are absolute, there's no room for ambiguity), i'm sure all the christians will just jump me and try to argue that they are right and i'm just an ignorant, blind, sad human being. and if i'll prove their new arguments wrong, they'll still find new ways to interpret them so that they are right. it's the fault of symbolic violence, the instinctual thing that our parents do to us. i won't be able to open anyone's eyes, as they are pretty much shut, in the same way that no christian will be able to 'open' mine. i live in a 'profoundly' christian country, and most christians i know are not worthy of the title 'christian'. they all tend to think that exceptions are ok, and that god and religion are not absolute, you can interpret them in a way that benefits you or that is closer to what you believe in when in truth it is not. that shook the power of my faith, and made me realize that their religiusness is more focused on their being a christian than loving god, peace and harmony. and i confess to not being a christian anymore. it would have really been for the best if all people were atheists to begin with. fundamentalism would no longer have its 'spiritual' motivation, the inquisition would have been non-existant, no nation would start a crusade against 'heathens', noone would feel entitled to persecute anyone because their god is 'false'. and how would you explain buddhism, being that old? is that a heresy? how about the crimes the bible chracters did... were they ok because it was actually god that worked through them? i remember seeing a very nice episode of south park, from season 7, something about mormones. that's the best example of how society shapes us in a certain way. we become less interested in the certainty of our ideals and values, and more interested in preserving and spreading them.
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote: I can understand how some people can only trust science... As if we aren't lied to enough practically every day? but ive done the research looked at the interviews and to be frank the odds of Creation without a Creator* (sorry for the typo) as we know it today are 1 to 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Mathemations regards anything over 1 to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to be an impossiblity.
I have a friend to who was an atheist and he was studying the eye for many years. After 6 years he says it is by far impossible to have something so intricate and carefully designed come about by blind luck.
Just food for thought. Have a good night..
Jace
except that the eye has a design floor where the occulomotor nerve runs along the back wall of the orbit hense creating the well known "blind-spot"
On May 31 2004 04:26 L!MP wrote:Except that the eye has a design floor where the occulomotor nerve runs along the back wall of the orbit hense creating the well known "blind-spot"
If it was only bluntly... I must admit... well said :D
There are many people who swear God impacts their lives so it is not simply a question of the afterlife.
Yah ... And I swear the roulette wheel landing on Odd efefcts my life, yet I don't go sit in a building for an hour each week and fidgit beacause of it do I?
u would if you believed the roulette wheel wanted you to or promised rewards far exceeding anything that can ever happen in ur human existence wouldnt u? but how the fuck do you end up believing something like that anyways? myth and supersticion?
In reference to the "Does Lasgo OP work for BW 1.11?" Thread... All I have to say is:
I've only read through some of the posts given, but I still think you should prove the excistence of the so called bible. Where did it come from? Who typed it? If I remember correctly it was some man in contact with god, but you see, the problem (unless god suffers from amnesia) is that the bible was written by more than 5 people, if you study it and read every line, you can see a lot of weird things, for example, we did this in class, read 3-4 pages and then somehow, man was created and then a woman, but the bible created the woman 2 times, from a rib from the man and then some other way I cant remember right now... but you see, it is proven that the bible was written by more than 5 writers, so wtf? And the nature itself is very spectacular, there is evolution and also science knows the basic substances that every lifeform consists of and it is also researched that all those substances excisted when life evolved on earth. Some might say, like in the first post that the odds of these substances to react is one too a shit load of zeros but do you know how small these substances are? they are atoms, and do you know how many atoms there is? If you have gone to school instead of beeing taught at church you know the answer is way over a shit load of zeros, and then the chances for them to react is alot less than you say.
We will also all go to hell, since we can't be a member of many diffrent religions, so the ones we are not in, will send us to hell of some sort, sucks dosen't it?
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote: I can understand how some people can only trust science... As if we aren't lied to enough practically every day? but ive done the research looked at the interviews and to be frank the odds of Creation without a Creator* (sorry for the typo) as we know it today are 1 to 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Mathemations regards anything over 1 to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to be an impossiblity.
I have a friend to who was an atheist and he was studying the eye for many years. After 6 years he says it is by far impossible to have something so intricate and carefully designed come about by blind luck.
Just food for thought. Have a good night..
Jace
1) There are indeed a lot of scientists who have ceased being atheists after their research. However, they did not become christian or even believe in god
2) Aren't you the Jehovas Witnesses guy? -_- You know, 'your people' have predicted the destruction of earth like 4 times in the last 100 years!
To the original question: If you also consider the universe infinite, the probability of life spawning at some part of the universe is actually pretty probable =]
Something drives the universe, something created the universe. Like in the Big Bang theory, the universe was like the size of an atom then exploded and expanded and expanded...
But still, where did that 'atom' come from >_<
Gotta think what's completely outside of everything that we know of. And even then, what created whatever created us?
Jesus was born in summer, because there were sheeps, and there is snow there december 25th and not only that: the star they all saw was actually a planet aligment and astrophysician said that happened somewhere in june.
He died at 40 years old not 33. When he died the sky became black. that's actually a solar eclipse that happened when he died. If we look at the time between that planetary alignement and that eclipse, it gives 40 years. So Jesus is born in the year -7 before Christ.
And who the fuck told them about all of this? they werent even there when he was born and in his early years. John wasnt even a real disciple. He was a kid when Jesus died (if I remember correctly)
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote: the odds of Creation without a Creator* ....
how do you get from creator to God? read some philosophy instead of maths. Pay particular attention to Hume's works, maybe we can turn you into an atheist after all
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote: I can understand how some people can only trust science... As if we aren't lied to enough practically every day? but ive done the research looked at the interviews and to be frank the odds of Creation without a Creator* (sorry for the typo) as we know it today are 1 to 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Mathemations regards anything over 1 to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to be an impossiblity.
I have a friend to who was an atheist and he was studying the eye for many years. After 6 years he says it is by far impossible to have something so intricate and carefully designed come about by blind luck.
Just food for thought. Have a good night..
Jace
Just accept that what is, simply is. It has nothing to do with luck, it's simply what happened. Saying some sort of 'God' made it isn't making it any more likely. I don't see how anyone can find a 'creator' a satisfying answer on how the world (or the universe if you like) has come to be. Creation is a paradox; if something has to be created by something that created it in order to exist, you have a situation that's either without end, or false. If it's without end you might as well drop the whole idea of a 'creator', because something that's begin- and endless doesn't need one. I'd like those who think 'God' is anymore an explanation for anything than the 'big bang' to think about this.
and btw, there's a chance of 1 in 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 I'm going to believe in fairy tales.
No one can prove if god did or did not exist, so really its a pointless argument.
Also just because we are talking about statistics or averages w/e. You have more chance of being killed by a comet in the street than you have of winning the lottery, but I bet more people win the lottery than gt killed by comets ;( .
These fucking fag missionaries under disguise just keep growing and growing because of the world's gullibility.
They come here with some non-sense pulled out of their ass and try to talk about God or Jesus as a matter of fact. Christians have less proof than atheists. In fact, I'd go as far as saying they have no proof that God magically created earth. Their bible often goes against them. But, 99.(9 repeated 300 times)% of Christians only take the bible's word for all their beliefs. Jesus did so many things that defied the laws of physics. He walked on water. He came back to life! (Those are the only 2 examples I can think of since I don't read the bible.)
Their whole arguement is "if you can't prove us wrong, we're right," which is ridiculously retarded and just goes on to show how baseless their beliefs are. See, intelligent and logical people don't waste their times trying to prove there there are no invisible 100-ft-tall pink kangaroos jumping around in everyone's backyard. Even if someone does prove it, they will pull out their secret weapon: "Oh noez foolish one! Thy cannot prove miracles! You must believe!!! with your heart!!! yes, love! love all!"
Well, no shit asshole. That's why you're idiots. I admit that your codes of how to live life lovingly and peacefully are good but trying to force a fake story down everyone's throat is getting fucking annoying. It's like listening to children who try to lecture me on how Santa exists and if I deny it, they cry and try to patronize me.
Good Night. or do you want me to read you some more bed-time stories before you fall asleep?
On May 31 2004 07:22 VdP]DreaM wrote: No one can prove if god did or did not exist, so really its a pointless argument.
Also just because we are talking about statistics or averages w/e. You have more chance of being killed by a comet in the street than you have of winning the lottery, but I bet more people win the lottery than gt killed by comets ;( .
You don't have to prove something doesn't exist, and you should prove something does exist if you want others to value it.
"Wisdom is knowing that you know nothing; foolishness is thinking that you know wisdom."
So many people spouting so much crap with so little education. I'm not going to try to argue this, pretty much for the reasons Drone posted. Though I'd like to talk a bit more about religion with Klogon. Intelligent person with reasonable arguments! (:
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote: the odds of Creation without a Creator* ....
Not that low. Evolution and enviromental adaptation can lead to anything. Even the eye. Religion is based on faith. You people can whine all you want about "God did this..." or "...your going to hell" but keep it to yourselves. The only thing that bothers me about you religious idiots is how you need to harass an Athiest for not beliving in what you do. It's their choice to belive what they want. Jehova witness recuiters fuck off please.
The "argument of ignorance" is the reason why religious discussions don't take you anywhere. Basically it says that if you can't prove that something does not exist, then it must, or may, exist. I can't prove that fairies from Mars lay their eggs on black holes, and that their spawns rise from these eggs to devour planets. I can't prove that the statement above is false, because I haven't been to Mars, I can't observe a black hole, etc etc. But does that mean it is true?
The "argument of the organized universe", regarding the original topic, is nearly the same; if we can't understand something, it's because "God made it too complex for us". If we can't do something, it's because "God doesn't want us to do". If we can't know something, it's because "God doesn't want us to know". These were statements said over and over again by religious authorities. "If God wanted Man to fly, he'd have given Man wings" was a common saying in the 19th century. If everyone followed that advice, we'd have no airplanes. "Man was not meant to go to Space", more recently. Bang, people have been to the Moon and we even have a space station today.
Are there things that Science cannot know definitely, or can't know yet? Yes, a lot of things. But in the unknown, the "supernatural" lurks. Science can't explain the organization of the Universe, so "God is the only explanation", according to theists or creationists.
It's based in such lines of thought that people still believe in miracles, possession, gnomes, angels, devils, plagues of Egypt and *insert supertitious belief that is impossible to be observed by Science". Go figure. What's the difference in believing in Santa Claus or believing in angels? I can just say that I believe in Zerg Queens, who is going to prove me wrong? "Just because you haven't seen a Zerg Queen, doesn't mean it doesn't exist"! That's how ridiculous all of this is, IMO.
However, I do recognize the benefits of the social inclusion and interaction that religions may bring.
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote: I can understand how some people can only trust science... As if we aren't lied to enough practically every day? but ive done the research looked at the interviews and to be frank the odds of Creation without a Creator* (sorry for the typo) as we know it today are 1 to 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Mathemations regards anything over 1 to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to be an impossiblity.
I have a friend to who was an atheist and he was studying the eye for many years. After 6 years he says it is by far impossible to have something so intricate and carefully designed come about by blind luck.
Just food for thought. Have a good night..
Jace
if time as a variable is infinite, that number means nothing
On May 30 2004 22:24 itzme_petey wrote: Hmmm... i was wondering something. The word "god" means "all mighty and powerful right?" or atleast describes a person who is. But... im all mighty and powerful to ants.. does that make me a god? If it does ya'll can bow down to me. Or does "god" mean, to have power over your fellow man? So god is just one of us..? So technically, he isnt a god, he is another being just powerful then us. Since with out us... who will he control... i guess he is content with his ant pile..
On May 30 2004 22:32 cjh wrote: These are questions nobody will ever have the answers to.
Excalibur_Z doesn't have them either, he's actually so far off it's sad.
But I think everybody would be best off if we were all atheists. Atheism isn't necessarily truth, but it is the one faith that doesn't promote violence, war, racism, generalized prejudice, masochism, murder, rape, terrorism, suicide, detrimental inhibitions, or misogyny.
the bible promotes none of that, everything is to be taken in context which sadly practically everyone who attempts to discuss the bible lacks
On May 30 2004 23:18 secrtagent wrote: Someday in the future, people will all look upon the various religions of today in the same manner scientists look upon the "gods" and religion of Greece. Even though greeks probably firmly believed in the existence and influence of many gods (sun god, sea god, god of war, etc.)...nowadays, its pretty much viewed as interesting, but nonetheless, nonsensical, myths.
We'll all have a good laugh at how gullible and vulnerable we really are . I am not trying to discourage religion... it is a very good guide to life and many people find comfort in believing in an afterlife. But one should take religion as just that... a guide to life... not the be all and end all of everything.
then why is christianity a 2000+ year religion while the greek religion lasted only in their time
On May 30 2004 23:41 cjh wrote: Few of them are happy. Most are suffering on the inside.
Many of them will even readily admit that they are suffering. They simply state that they are more concerned with the eternal afterlife than they are with their lives on Earth.
Most of them are taught this bullshit from birth. Pounded into their heads as early as age 2, if you disobey the lord you will be forever damned to a Hell filled with the worst pain and suffering you could ever imagine.
Answer me this: If a girl is constantly told from age 2 to 14 that she is a worthless stupid trashy slut whore, how do you think the remainder of her life will be spent? She'll likely do a ton of drugs and alcohol and have many many sexual partners and probably be a rape victim a number of times, until she either dies or eventually decides to spend the rest of her life recovering from the horrible emotional trauma that she experienced age 2 to 14.
With religion it's a little different. Few people tell you that it's wrong and the ones that do are very easily dismissed as false, so people who have religion pounded into their heads from birth never recover. Instead they're like the girl who believed she was a worthless stupid trashy slut whore until she died.
It's not difficult to maintain faith when you're born with it being forced down your throat; just as it's expected that the girl would go on to lead the life of a worthless stupid trashy slut whore.
I could think of a few much better analogies than the one above, but I've already typed a ton so that's what you get. =[
hell is not a biblically taught concept, and learning the bible is not emotionally traumatic for most christians
On May 30 2004 23:18 secrtagent wrote: Someday in the future, people will all look upon the various religions of today in the same manner scientists look upon the "gods" and religion of Greece. Even though greeks probably firmly believed in the existence and influence of many gods (sun god, sea god, god of war, etc.)...nowadays, its pretty much viewed as interesting, but nonetheless, nonsensical, myths.
We'll all have a good laugh at how gullible and vulnerable we really are . I am not trying to discourage religion... it is a very good guide to life and many people find comfort in believing in an afterlife. But one should take religion as just that... a guide to life... not the be all and end all of everything.
Yeah, religion is a fantastic guide to life. "Put your penis into a woman's vagina and enjoy it, YOU WILL SPEND AN ETERNITY IN HELL ENDURING THE TORMENT OF A THOUSAND VICIOUS DEMONS AND FIERY BRIMSTONE, INFIDEL. SIEG HEIL"
Problem with sex is people just misuse it by not being married to person BEFORE they make love.. why do you think we have STDs? But although god may not approve of premarrital sex isn't it illogical to think he'd deliver us into a fiery hell to burn and burn and burn?? 1 John 4:8 says "...God is Love." Interestingly enough Romans 6: 7 says "He who has died has been aquitted from his sin." To be frank many many ministers have a hard time impressing the seriousness of sin to people so the clergy class had to come up with something to scare people into serving god... "Hellfire".
this is fairly accurate, hell is a very pagan concept
I read through the first 5 pages, then skimmed the last two.
heres my views:
Do you guys believe in chaos theory? (The idea of order in chaos, no randomness. Anything can be predicted knowing ALL of the initial conditions of a situation. For example, one could have predicted the response I was about to type based on my past knowledge, my hormonal state at the time, the atmosphere, how much sleep I got, and what you guys have typed so far, as well as an uncountable number of other factors).
Basically, with chaos theory, we could predict everything that will happen. However, we are far too insignificant and not nearly perceptive enough to take into account everything possible.
Adding to this, suppose we want to predict something that will happen in 2 weeks. We would not only have to take into account everything that has happened to every person who could possibly be involved in what we want to predict, as well as everything that is happening now, and every single action over the continuous span of the next 2 weeks. This is even much harder than I briefly brushed over before.
That being said, lets suppose a god exists. Now, god is defined to be an all powerful, omniscient being. He has the ability to predict the future because he CAN take into account everything. This would be an explanation of prophecies and the like. However, it is merely a conjecture.
This type of conjecture can be furthered to God actually creating science. Physics, math seem near perfect to me. They are very cut and dry subject matters. Of course there are things we might be wrong about.
The word "science" bothers me. Im a mathematician. Math is about assuming a bunch of axioms are true, then proving whatever we can from those basic axioms. Science on the other hand, is about observing things, then making conjectures about them. These are not proofs, they can be likened to what we call in math as "proofs by example". this is NOT a proof. Science is a bunch of observations that people make, merely conjectures based on a lot of sightings.
Now, that also being said, everything we can possibly say about both science and religion is a conjecture. Hell, even math is a conjecture, we cant prove the axioms we hold to be true. suppose in euclidian geometry that a straight line is not the shortest distance between two points. Suppose sets in the real numbers dont have infinum's and supremum's, we cant prove shit in math.
Since everything is merely a conjecture and the questions we are asking here probably will never be answered, the only choice I had was to become agnostic. I dont have enough faith to push myself over towards monotheism (christianity is a bullshit religion that was created through canonization of paganism) nor do I have the guts to outright say god does not exist, so I cant claim atheism.
youre probably all bored of me now, just my two cents, in this case, more like two bucks worth.
On May 31 2004 00:26 cjh wrote: Myself and most of my cousins attended private religious schools, and church on a weekly basis for a term of our lives. I've been around plenty of religious folk.
In my experience, it's gone like this... The ones that truly believe and follow their faith, are suffering. The ones that claim to believe but don't put too much of themselves into it (Excalibur_Z seems like he might fall into this group), can be happy.
you really dont know anything, the extent to which one devotes himself to religion is not proportional to how much he suffers
On May 31 2004 01:43 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote: um. u dont know whats "beyond" the universe (if anything) , what is before, or after, or how it works, if it does, etc. so it could be a 1 in infinite chance over infinite time.. and still happens. simple. the only way creationist arguments like the one that started this thread get any merit is by using conspiracy theories to justify a belief that the earth and the universe etc. are much younger than they seem to be
time is a product, whether its a product of our universe or a product of god is the debate, either way you're going to have a hell of a time proving a product of something can be infinite
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote:but ive done the research looked at the interviews and to be frank the odds of Creation without a Creator* (sorry for the typo) as we know it today are 1 to 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Mathemations regards anything over 1 to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to be an impossiblity. Jace
I'd love to see how you "researched" this... Like every other bullshit christian fundamentalist I can only assume you were reasing children's books about magic (Harry Potter anyone???) and some fake statistic caught your eye that you decided to inflate.
The Romans had a religion... You consider it foolish and wrong now.
The Greeks had a religion... You consider it foolish and wrong now.
The Muslims have a religion... You consider it foolish and wrong now.
The Hindus have a religion... You consider it foolish and wrong now.
All these religions... and all you eventually agree on is some "eternal" being controls and created everything.
Where's here's the most basic question for you: Where did he come from?
And when you answer, he has always existed for he is the forever... I answer with, you're own proof that creation exists without a creator is prrof that a creator could not exist without any other form of existence.
Consciousness is beyond current human understanding... and people need to throw away their worthless views of "religion" as an answer and either accept that as sentient beings you face insanity on a daily basis dealing with your own intelligence. Religion is a false comfort, there is no afterlife, what you accomplish in life is what you accomplish... You're legacy is based purely on your commitement to excellence.
Anyway, if anyone reads this and cares to argue I will prove them to be a moron beyond all question of the word moron.
Greek and Roman religions lasted only in their era, hindu's and muslims have their own followers, why bring up other religions, its totally irrelevant. and your weak little philosophies on the purpose of religion are totally irrelevant as well
? Are you really hoping to convince Atheists of anything with this thread? Personally I couldn't care less about your statistics about improbability of the Universe existing. Would you like some statistics from me(seeing as how you seem to be fond of statistics without any proof...) The chance of there being a creator is 0 in 1.
Also your statistics say CREATION without Creator. Woopdeedoo, I'm not arguing for Creation, but for Evolution.
Well actually the odds of life happening in this universe is 1/infinite. I read an entire book describing how by 'chance' certain things happened the way they are. Like why protons when they were created a couple of days after the big bang happened to decay after trillions and trillions of years instead of a couple of thousand years. Or why is the proton smaller than the neutron? Or why was it that there are 4 dimensions instead of a trillion? If all of this was otherwise, we wouldnt be here. So the probability of having a creation God is quite high right now.
However I still go with scientific approach, if it wasn't for people that didn't believe in God, we'd be living in the stone age. Science is something still new, give humanity a couple of more thousand years (which is like a blink of an eye relative to how long this universe has been here) and more and more answers about who we are will be answered.
Plus, prove that god exists and if he does, why doesnt he give a shit about us instead of leaving us here all alone?
On May 31 2004 03:35 Li.Echo wrote: simply put: based on the theory of quantum mechanics, a fascinating and current result is that every possible history of the universe exists. You couple this with the correct philosphy, "why are we here? because we are about to ask it." I find it ironic how christians so quickly jump to label things as impossible when they themselves believe in miracles and in a world were nothing is real or solid because it is only a breif reflection of the infinite mind of a god...which is more impossible? more fantastic?
i thought this stupid little theory would die out when everyone used half their brain to figure out it was stupid. but because this forum lacks even the basic knowledge on what an "abstract concept" is, i guess maybe ill have to explain it?
God "is". he wasn't created, he doesn't "come from" anywhere, blah blah blah. boy does that sound ridiculous, just like numbers, they weren't created, they aren't a product of anything, they are infinite, they simply "are".
this is what an abstract concept is, now everyone stop fucking trying to apply basic and simple "rules" to an abstract concept
On May 31 2004 04:05 Starfire.fX wrote: Beyond an existence than I can describe no better than "comfortable" (I have never wanted for anythign in my life) I have never seen any existence of a "GoD" figure. To comprehend such a being is beyond anything I can think of... I've done some crazy drugs and my mind has considered some things that I can only assume you would think to be insane... I think I have legally been insane for a time, but in the end it always comes back to people use GoD as an excuse to be lazy.
They beleive in a second chance if they half-ass be good in this life, a forevermore... What earned them this second chance? Their sloth? Their Greed? Their own deadly sins call them down, I shun devout christians and those without the ability to acknowledge their mortalitiy.
On May 31 2004 04:19 kornu wrote: the thing is, each one fo us gets imprinted with a set of basic beliefs and values during our first years of life. it's called symbolic violence. the intricate mechanics of society make it so that our parents (mothers especially) shape us in a certain direction that works for the society in question. for instance, an arab family will 'arabize' its children, in the same way that every family in every part of the world will thend to shape its children the way they were shaped... it's like society has some kind of collective norms, a matrix so to say, that gets grafted into each one of us. the particular, regional society each of us live in is the result of many many years of evolution, and the fact that we exist confirms that society has evolved in a good way, ensuring survival, therefore, it created this mechanism to preserve itself and protect itself at the same time from outside disturbance (such as other societies). from nature's point of view, good means anything that ensures survival. while we have developed a set of morals, unfortunately none of us really live to them, i.e. enforce them rather than the classic set of morals we were trained with, because that is the whole point of symbolic violence... it teaches all individuals in a specific region to act the same, think the same (i'm reffering to fundamental items, not favourite colors), preserve the characteristics of the place we grew up in. that's why christian families impose christian values on their children, even if the bible says that we have free will, therefore negating the 'free will' part (i bet all christians will try to argue that i'm very wrong, and that is absolutely normal, they were trained this way). that's why americans are so damn proud to be americans, that's why people fight wars, they were trained to value their religion, their race, their nationality higher than the general human values. and those mechanism, the ones put in place in our early days, are the most efficient way for society to preserve itself. those inhibitors work above reason, above will. if all the people would have the strength to think above those, above religion or color, the world would truly be a better place. but unfortunately, we are all trained to hold our own values higher than others' values, and the worst thing yet is that we cannot accept any others, even when reason makes us see that we are wrong. if i were to post 100 incosistencies in the bible, which is supposed to be perfect, as it is god's word, and god is perfect, therefore proving that christianity is wrong (seeing how religions are absolute, there's no room for ambiguity), i'm sure all the christians will just jump me and try to argue that they are right and i'm just an ignorant, blind, sad human being. and if i'll prove their new arguments wrong, they'll still find new ways to interpret them so that they are right. it's the fault of symbolic violence, the instinctual thing that our parents do to us. i won't be able to open anyone's eyes, as they are pretty much shut, in the same way that no christian will be able to 'open' mine. i live in a 'profoundly' christian country, and most christians i know are not worthy of the title 'christian'. they all tend to think that exceptions are ok, and that god and religion are not absolute, you can interpret them in a way that benefits you or that is closer to what you believe in when in truth it is not. that shook the power of my faith, and made me realize that their religiusness is more focused on their being a christian than loving god, peace and harmony. and i confess to not being a christian anymore. it would have really been for the best if all people were atheists to begin with. fundamentalism would no longer have its 'spiritual' motivation, the inquisition would have been non-existant, no nation would start a crusade against 'heathens', noone would feel entitled to persecute anyone because their god is 'false'. and how would you explain buddhism, being that old? is that a heresy? how about the crimes the bible chracters did... were they ok because it was actually god that worked through them? i remember seeing a very nice episode of south park, from season 7, something about mormones. that's the best example of how society shapes us in a certain way. we become less interested in the certainty of our ideals and values, and more interested in preserving and spreading them.
why is everyone a philosopher? what a family does to a child has no basis at all on whether or not a certain religion is fact, what the hell
On May 31 2004 04:42 TanGo wrote: I've only read through some of the posts given, but I still think you should prove the excistence of the so called bible. Where did it come from? Who typed it? If I remember correctly it was some man in contact with god, but you see, the problem (unless god suffers from amnesia) is that the bible was written by more than 5 people, if you study it and read every line, you can see a lot of weird things, for example, we did this in class, read 3-4 pages and then somehow, man was created and then a woman, but the bible created the woman 2 times, from a rib from the man and then some other way I cant remember right now... but you see, it is proven that the bible was written by more than 5 writers, so wtf? And the nature itself is very spectacular, there is evolution and also science knows the basic substances that every lifeform consists of and it is also researched that all those substances excisted when life evolved on earth. Some might say, like in the first post that the odds of these substances to react is one too a shit load of zeros but do you know how small these substances are? they are atoms, and do you know how many atoms there is? If you have gone to school instead of beeing taught at church you know the answer is way over a shit load of zeros, and then the chances for them to react is alot less than you say.
you dont understand at all the nature of that number in the first post, infact im not sure if you even understand simple math
tien, dont ask questions of religion, its easy to come up with vague answers that coincide with any scripture.
Whats interesting is, math and science can account for most of the big bang theory...except the beginning. The same beginning as christianity, the creation of something out of nothing. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but after a huge burst of energy (the big bang), matter was left all over. The creation belief has the same idea -- let there be light
On May 31 2004 05:13 Muhweli wrote: To the original question: If you also consider the universe infinite, the probability of life spawning at some part of the universe is actually pretty probable =]
there is absolutely nothing in any theory what so ever that supports an infinite universe
On May 31 2004 05:52 FadeToChaos wrote: Why the bible is bs:
Jesus was born in summer, because there were sheeps, and there is snow there december 25th and not only that: the star they all saw was actually a planet aligment and astrophysician said that happened somewhere in june.
He died at 40 years old not 33. When he died the sky became black. that's actually a solar eclipse that happened when he died. If we look at the time between that planetary alignement and that eclipse, it gives 40 years. So Jesus is born in the year -7 before Christ.
And who the fuck told them about all of this? they werent even there when he was born and in his early years. John wasnt even a real disciple. He was a kid when Jesus died (if I remember correctly)
On May 31 2004 07:30 Heen wrote: See, intelligent and logical people don't waste their times trying to prove there there are no invisible 100-ft-tall pink kangaroos jumping around in everyone's backyard. Even if someone does prove it, they will pull out their secret weapon: "Oh noez foolish one! Thy cannot prove miracles! You must believe!!! with your heart!!! yes, love! love all!"
keanu, there are two theories. the first is that the universe is growing at a decreasing speed, the other that the growth of the universe is accelerating. If it is growing at a decreasing speed, then eventually, it will cease growing, then begin to shrink.
However, if it is growing at an increasing rate then the size of the universe WILL be unbounded. I suppose you are right in saying however that it is still bounded right now (growing at a finite rate for a finite time). However, applying this theory will result in an infinite universe size over an infinite time.
On May 31 2004 07:30 Heen wrote: These fucking fag missionaries under disguise just keep growing and growing because of the world's gullibility.
They come here with some non-sense pulled out of their ass and try to talk about God or Jesus as a matter of fact. Christians have less proof than atheists. In fact, I'd go as far as saying they have no proof that God magically created earth. Their bible often goes against them. But, 99.(9 repeated 300 times)% of Christians only take the bible's word for all their beliefs. Jesus did so many things that defied the laws of physics. He walked on water. He came back to life! (Those are the only 2 examples I can think of since I don't read the bible.)
Their whole arguement is "if you can't prove us wrong, we're right," which is ridiculously retarded and just goes on to show how baseless their beliefs are. See, intelligent and logical people don't waste their times trying to prove there there are no invisible 100-ft-tall pink kangaroos jumping around in everyone's backyard. Even if someone does prove it, they will pull out their secret weapon: "Oh noez foolish one! Thy cannot prove miracles! You must believe!!! with your heart!!! yes, love! love all!"
Well, no shit asshole. That's why you're idiots. I admit that your codes of how to live life lovingly and peacefully are good but trying to force a fake story down everyone's throat is getting fucking annoying. It's like listening to children who try to lecture me on how Santa exists and if I deny it, they cry and try to patronize me.
Good Night. or do you want me to read you some more bed-time stories before you fall asleep?
you state you dont read the bible yet you are claiming it goes against christians?
On May 31 2004 08:58 Keanu_Reaver wrote: then why is christianity a 2000+ year religion while the greek religion lasted only in their time
Cause christianity was born in the largest/most advanced civilization at that time outside of asia. People accepted Christianity so willingly because it promoted stuff that poor people loved, and that rich people hated. From it's birthplace in rome, us white folks moved and took over just about everything in the known world and brought our religion with us. Ironically, it's most practiced and believed by the heathen savages we imposed it on back in the day who still struggle with human rights and money while us rich well off folk generally don't give a flying f**k about christianity or its dozens of bastardized forms.
On May 31 2004 03:35 Li.Echo wrote: simply put: based on the theory of quantum mechanics, a fascinating and current result is that every possible history of the universe exists. You couple this with the correct philosphy, "why are we here? because we are about to ask it." I find it ironic how christians so quickly jump to label things as impossible when they themselves believe in miracles and in a world were nothing is real or solid because it is only a breif reflection of the infinite mind of a god...which is more impossible? more fantastic?
i thought this stupid little theory would die out when everyone used half their brain to figure out it was stupid. but because this forum lacks even the basic knowledge on what an "abstract concept" is, i guess maybe ill have to explain it?
God "is". he wasn't created, he doesn't "come from" anywhere, blah blah blah. boy does that sound ridiculous, just like numbers, they weren't created, they aren't a product of anything, they are infinite, they simply "are".
this is what an abstract concept is, now everyone stop fucking trying to apply basic and simple "rules" to an abstract concept
ah yes, magical faith, the ultimate debate card. whenever someone presents a point that makes a religious person question anything about their religion, they pull out the big fat faith card, which basically boils down to "you can't understand, you just have to have faith." oh that wily church, creating such a concept that essentially defeats any opposition before it even gets started. bravo, infallible church, bravo!
On May 31 2004 05:52 FadeToChaos wrote: Why the bible is bs:
Jesus was born in summer, because there were sheeps, and there is snow there december 25th and not only that: the star they all saw was actually a planet aligment and astrophysician said that happened somewhere in june.
He died at 40 years old not 33. When he died the sky became black. that's actually a solar eclipse that happened when he died. If we look at the time between that planetary alignement and that eclipse, it gives 40 years. So Jesus is born in the year -7 before Christ.
And who the fuck told them about all of this? they werent even there when he was born and in his early years. John wasnt even a real disciple. He was a kid when Jesus died (if I remember correctly)
john baptized jesus
...
jesus was born in march. december 25 is the pagan celebration of the days beginning to lengthen again (notice it occurs only 4 days after the winter solstice). Christianity is just a fusion of a jumble of previous ideas used in different religions.
On May 31 2004 09:27 BigBalls wrote: keanu, there are two theories. the first is that the universe is growing at a decreasing speed, the other that the growth of the universe is accelerating. If it is growing at a decreasing speed, then eventually, it will cease growing, then begin to shrink.
However, if it is growing at an increasing rate then the size of the universe WILL be unbounded. I suppose you are right in saying however that it is still bounded right now (growing at a finite rate for a finite time). However, applying this theory will result in an infinite universe size over an infinite time.
The growth of the universe is accelerating. It was big news 6 months ago.
On May 31 2004 09:27 BigBalls wrote: keanu, there are two theories. the first is that the universe is growing at a decreasing speed, the other that the growth of the universe is accelerating. If it is growing at a decreasing speed, then eventually, it will cease growing, then begin to shrink.
However, if it is growing at an increasing rate then the size of the universe WILL be unbounded. I suppose you are right in saying however that it is still bounded right now (growing at a finite rate for a finite time). However, applying this theory will result in an infinite universe size over an infinite time.
The growth of the universe is accelerating. It was big news 6 months ago.
im a bit behind =)
So then the universe WILL be infinite size, although it isnt now.
On May 31 2004 09:14 Tien wrote: Well actually the odds of life happening in this universe is 1/infinite. I read an entire book describing how by 'chance' certain things happened the way they are. Like why protons when they were created a couple of days after the big bang happened to decay after trillions and trillions of years instead of a couple of thousand years. Or why is the proton smaller than the neutron? Or why was it that there are 4 dimensions instead of a trillion? If all of this was otherwise, we wouldnt be here. So the probability of having a creation God is quite high right now.
However I still go with scientific approach, if it wasn't for people that didn't believe in God, we'd be living in the stone age. Science is something still new, give humanity a couple of more thousand years (which is like a blink of an eye relative to how long this universe has been here) and more and more answers about who we are will be answered.
Plus, prove that god exists and if he does, why doesnt he give a shit about us instead of leaving us here all alone?
...atheism is a 100 year old fad, practically every man before then that has contributed to progression has had a religion, whether that religion was christianity or not doesn't matter
On May 31 2004 09:27 BigBalls wrote: keanu, there are two theories. the first is that the universe is growing at a decreasing speed, the other that the growth of the universe is accelerating. If it is growing at a decreasing speed, then eventually, it will cease growing, then begin to shrink.
However, if it is growing at an increasing rate then the size of the universe WILL be unbounded. I suppose you are right in saying however that it is still bounded right now (growing at a finite rate for a finite time). However, applying this theory will result in an infinite universe size over an infinite time.
i understand that, but that doesn't matter, that number has been satisfied...satisfied in a finite universe
On May 31 2004 05:52 FadeToChaos wrote: Why the bible is bs:
Jesus was born in summer, because there were sheeps, and there is snow there december 25th and not only that: the star they all saw was actually a planet aligment and astrophysician said that happened somewhere in june.
He died at 40 years old not 33. When he died the sky became black. that's actually a solar eclipse that happened when he died. If we look at the time between that planetary alignement and that eclipse, it gives 40 years. So Jesus is born in the year -7 before Christ.
And who the fuck told them about all of this? they werent even there when he was born and in his early years. John wasnt even a real disciple. He was a kid when Jesus died (if I remember correctly)
john baptized jesus
...
jesus was born in march. december 25 is the pagan celebration of the days beginning to lengthen again (notice it occurs only 4 days after the winter solstice). Christianity is just a fusion of a jumble of previous ideas used in different religions.
i dont believe in "christmas" being jesus' birthday either, as the account clearly shows it wasn't
ah yes, magical faith, the ultimate debate card. whenever someone presents a point that makes a religious person question anything about their religion, they pull out the big fat faith card, which basically boils down to "you can't understand, you just have to have faith." oh that wily church, creating such a concept that essentially defeats any opposition before it even gets started. bravo, infallible church, bravo!
lmao, so true. So many wars started this way. People simply refused to see past their own stupidity and as a result killed millions upon millions all in the name of an all mighty god. Of course, faith in god isn't to blame most of the time it's just an instrument for a few power hungry corrupt individuals can use to bend the will of people. Usually religion is used to pull a curtain of ignorance in front of an entire nation, convincing them that killing the heathens is a great idea. We have monopolized media today to replace that important function of religion
in any case, the "proof" that god exists. while i can't prove he does exist, this mixed in with my faith and personal experience makes him a very factual entity to me:
1) time: time is a product, without a universe (or God, as it were) there would not be time. if time is finite it makes that number that started this post very crucial, it means that there is a finite number of planets, a finite number of potential organisms, etc. etc., but the existance of the first atom and the supposed "fact" that at the time of the big bang, all particles travelled beyond the speed of light isn't in question, after all who can question the speed of something when one of the variables of speed doesn't exist yet. On the other hand, if time is infinite, that number no longer matters, but it then makes the creation of our universe according to the current atheist theories an impossibility. Time is a stumbling block for anyone who believes the universe was created without an almighty god.
2) the bombadier beetle. im sure a few of you know of this little guy. due to the mechanism's in his body it is absolutely impossible for random mutations to create him. a quick lesson: this guy has two seperate compartments in his body, each one contains a chemical, as a defense mechanism he spurts out these two seperate chemicals and when they touch, they explode. how could he possibly have existed through random mutation? ok, a mutation creates the first chemical, he has no defense mechanism, natural selection means he's gone before he ever gets to mutate the second part. not to mention the complexity of the mechanism itself. expecting it to all come around at once is the same as expecting to be able to throw parts out of a plane and expecting them to land as a computer. ridiculous.
3) the dead sea scrolls date back to 200 AD~ and contain the bible in near entirety. this includes such things as where it says "the earth is spherical and held up in nothingness" which was not a belief at the time. along with many other things that it took so much longer for science to prove true
4) other scrolls of other books. as one person has said, the books of daniel showed which nations would fall and to which nations. the book of isaiah describes in amazing detail the life of jesus which is historically accurate. the book of micah shows that jesus would be born in bethlehem. Zechariah foretold that he would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, again historically accurate. and David foretold such things about jesus' life as well. these were all written hundreds of years before their prophecies came true, and many of them have scrolls proving such
5) the method of which christianity has lasted so long and is so wide spread. if you research its history and the bible's spreading, its really quite amazing
6) objective morality. such a thing would not exist with evolution as freud clearly stated, yet cultural anthropology shows that every single society ever has had certain morals in common, such things as murder and rape have not been accepted.
These are the main ideas, there are many offshoots to them (far too many to name) and with my personal experiences -- i wasn't raised a devout christian, but how i became god fearing and how i came into the nature of my current situation is really quite amazing -- i do believe in god. Though i will say the personal experiences means much more to me than the points listed above.
ah yes, magical faith, the ultimate debate card. whenever someone presents a point that makes a religious person question anything about their religion, they pull out the big fat faith card, which basically boils down to "you can't understand, you just have to have faith." oh that wily church, creating such a concept that essentially defeats any opposition before it even gets started. bravo, infallible church, bravo!
lmao, so true. So many wars started this way. People simply refused to see past their own stupidity and as a result killed millions upon millions all in the name of an all mighty god. Of course, faith in god isn't to blame most of the time it's just an instrument for a few power hungry corrupt individuals can use to bend the will of people. Usually religion is used to pull a curtain of ignorance in front of an entire nation, convincing them that killing the heathens is a great idea. We have monopolized media today to replace that important function of religion
this doesn't disprove religion though, only that people seek to manipulate religion to their own gains
people will manipulate the word "peace" and "freedom" for personal gain as well, does that mean that peace and freedom don't exist? or are terrible and evil things?
On May 31 2004 09:14 Tien wrote: Well actually the odds of life happening in this universe is 1/infinite. I read an entire book describing how by 'chance' certain things happened the way they are. Like why protons when they were created a couple of days after the big bang happened to decay after trillions and trillions of years instead of a couple of thousand years. Or why is the proton smaller than the neutron? Or why was it that there are 4 dimensions instead of a trillion? If all of this was otherwise, we wouldnt be here. So the probability of having a creation God is quite high right now.
However I still go with scientific approach, if it wasn't for people that didn't believe in God, we'd be living in the stone age. Science is something still new, give humanity a couple of more thousand years (which is like a blink of an eye relative to how long this universe has been here) and more and more answers about who we are will be answered.
Plus, prove that god exists and if he does, why doesnt he give a shit about us instead of leaving us here all alone?
...atheism is a 100 year old fad, practically every man before then that has contributed to progression has had a religion, whether that religion was christianity or not doesn't matter
I do not intend to refute any of your 'religious' points here, i just want to make it clear... that majority beliefs do not equate to fact. I.e the world was once flat. Atleast 99.9% of the world thought so. Any claim that humans have always believed, must mean that its true, is void of any logistics or critical thinking.
well neither does yours, dont tell me to not point out that yours doesnt prove it (even if you call it a "proof" then footnote it with saying it doesnt exactly prove the existence of a god) when youre doing the same thing to him.
On May 31 2004 10:28 BigBalls wrote: well neither does yours, dont tell me to not point out that yours doesnt prove it (even if you call it a "proof" then footnote it with saying it doesnt exactly prove the existence of a god) when youre doing the same thing to him.
the quotations were sarcastic, because every single atheist posting here will throw out some random philosophy then say something to the extent of "see? god doesn't exist!". i believe science as we have it cant prove it one way or the other, but it seems everyone else can. its ridiculous and absolutely retarded, this goes for everyone atheists and christians alike
why should i point out his doesnt disprove religion when you already said so yourself.
if i was holding double standards i wouldnt be agnostic.
1500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you "knew" that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow.
On May 31 2004 09:14 Tien wrote: Well actually the odds of life happening in this universe is 1/infinite. I read an entire book describing how by 'chance' certain things happened the way they are. Like why protons when they were created a couple of days after the big bang happened to decay after trillions and trillions of years instead of a couple of thousand years. Or why is the proton smaller than the neutron? Or why was it that there are 4 dimensions instead of a trillion? If all of this was otherwise, we wouldnt be here. So the probability of having a creation God is quite high right now.
However I still go with scientific approach, if it wasn't for people that didn't believe in God, we'd be living in the stone age. Science is something still new, give humanity a couple of more thousand years (which is like a blink of an eye relative to how long this universe has been here) and more and more answers about who we are will be answered.
Plus, prove that god exists and if he does, why doesnt he give a shit about us instead of leaving us here all alone?
...atheism is a 100 year old fad, practically every man before then that has contributed to progression has had a religion, whether that religion was christianity or not doesn't matter
I do not intend to refute any of your 'religious' points here, i just want to make it clear... that majority beliefs do not equate to fact. I.e the world was once flat. Atleast 99.9% of the world thought so. Any claim that humans have always believed, must mean that its true, is void of any logistics or critical thinking.
i dont believe that, but if someone like aristotle was to go out and publicly say something like that, he would be praised for it now (if not killed then). they had no astronomical knowledge of what the earth actually is, and the common belief was very false, yet the bible was clearly right. was it just an excellent guess?
On May 31 2004 10:30 BigBalls wrote: why should i point out his doesnt disprove religion when you already said so yourself.
if i was holding double standards i wouldnt be agnostic.
1500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you "knew" that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow.
now you're putting words in my mouth
i've never said anything about the universe not having any other life have i? show me where i did
On May 31 2004 10:30 BigBalls wrote: why should i point out his doesnt disprove religion when you already said so yourself.
if i was holding double standards i wouldnt be agnostic.
1500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you "knew" that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow.
now you're putting words in my mouth
i've never said anything about the universe not having any other life have i? show me where i did
haha, its a movie quote, men in black. it was in response to someone else, not you.
On May 31 2004 10:30 BigBalls wrote: why should i point out his doesnt disprove religion when you already said so yourself.
if i was holding double standards i wouldnt be agnostic.
1500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you "knew" that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow.
now you're putting words in my mouth
i've never said anything about the universe not having any other life have i? show me where i did
haha, its a movie quote, men in black. it was in response to someone else, not you.
then why would you quote it to me? you were clearly making this post to me by addressing me saying your use of double standards are sickening, what the hell?
I was reading this thread and I wanted to post some of the things that Keanu just posted. Why is it that you people always think inside the box that you live in and then try to use your information about the box to try and prove the box's origin? Why does God have to live inside a time and space (and everything else)? The very concept of time and space, the very definition, is something a creator would have created. The things you study are the rules that a creator would create. Infinite doesn't begin or end, it's infinite on both ends. Why would God have to be created?
If the starcraft computer AI gained conciousness, it would know the rules as to gather minerals, not let your base get destroyed, etc... Even if it knew everything about the game; even if he knew how the game starts with a load screen, it would not know anything about the world outside of starcraft or how starcraft was created. This is a poor analogy, but this is teamliquid forums.
Christianity has nothing to do with any of the rituals you mention. Christianity has no rituals and the only thing it asks is that to believe you are faultless (that Jesus has already died for you). How can you relate that with why people suffer or the wars in history?
I was not born a Christian, in fact I was born in a communist country. I go to a church that is just three office buildings (originally one), no fancy church architecture or anything. We don't have a pastor (brother offer to speak, or we'd have guest speakers), nobody gets paid, there is no collection plate and in fact the offering box is well unnoticeable.
Speaking about probability, the probability of something doesn't change if you've done it more than once. When you flip a coin and it is heads, it doesn't mean it is any less likely to be heads on the next flip. This only happens if you predict that two heads will land right after each other which is when two probabilities are mutliplied with each other. Think about entropy, why doesn't objects just leave towards one direction? The probability of atoms at some moment all moving in same direction is much greater than life being created, or the universe from nothing (since we're speaking about rules within the box).
and wow, its amazing how typical you all are every single atheist or person who believes in evolution whom i've approached with about the bombadier beetle in a debate has done the exact same thing, pass it off. infact, to quote one of the conversations i had:
"blah blah blah the bombadier beetle cannot exist through random mutations, so how did it come about?" "...random mutations."
and blindly following is a stereotype of christians
On May 31 2004 10:39 I_are_n00b wrote: I was reading this thread and I wanted to post some of the things that Keanu just posted. Why is it that you people always think inside the box that you live in and then try to use your information about the box to try and prove the box's origin? Why does God have to live inside a time and space (and everything else)? The very concept of time and space, the very definition, is something a creator would have created. The things you study are the rules that a creator would create. Infinite doesn't begin or end, it's infinite on both ends. Why would God have to be created?
If the starcraft computer AI gained conciousness, it would know the rules as to gather minerals, not let your base get destroyed, etc... Even if it knew everything about the game; even if he knew how the game starts with a load screen, it would not know anything about the world outside of starcraft or how starcraft was created. This is a poor analogy, but this is teamliquid forums.
Christianity has nothing to do with any of the rituals you mention. Christianity has no rituals and the only thing it asks is that to believe you are faultless (that Jesus has already died for you). How can you relate that with why people suffer or the wars in history?
I was not born a Christian, in fact I was born in a communist country. I go to a church that is just three office buildings (originally one), no fancy church architecture or anything. We don't have a pastor (brother offer to speak, or we'd have guest speakers), nobody gets paid, there is no collection plate and in fact the offering box is well unnoticeable.
Speaking about probability, the probability of something doesn't change if you've done it more than once. When you flip a coin and it is heads, it doesn't mean it is any less likely to be heads on the next flip. This only happens if you predict that two heads will land right after each other which is when two probabilities are mutliplied with each other. Think about entropy, why doesn't objects just leave towards one direct? The probability of atoms at some moment all moving in same direction is much greater than life being created, or the universe from nothing (since we're speaking about rules within the box).
you'd be surprised how few people actually understand probability, where are all the poker players?
Okay since my thread got deleted... FUCK. well anyways, this is a lot stupider anyways. Even if it's a practical impossibility - why would an existence of an allmighty entity be more probable? listen to yourselves!?!?!1+
The world existing by itself is a practical impossibility by the rules of this world. An almighty entity is more probable because, again, He wouldn't have to play the rules that we live with. If something is infinite, then there is no end or beginning, therefore, there was never an occurance (I choose that word because time is irrelevant) where the entity didn't exist.
Maybe if your arguments were better, or if you'd be more open minded maybe you'd consider the other argument.
On May 30 2004 22:13 AeroGx wrote: I can understand how some people can only trust science... As if we aren't lied to enough practically every day? but ive done the research looked at the interviews and to be frank the odds of Creation without a Creator* (sorry for the typo) as we know it today are 1 to 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Mathemations regards anything over 1 to 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to be an impossiblity.
Jace
This is a common but misleading argument. Plz dont take any offense: see out of so many intercourses and billions of sperms, only one particular sperm produced you. Why would sth with such a small probobility ever happen? becoz it's already happened. When sth's already happened the probability of its happening is 1, not 1 out of 100000....... Otherwise every single person in this world would be a miracle; and the world population in totality would be a miracle to the power of 5billion.
On May 31 2004 10:39 I_are_n00b wrote: I was reading this thread and I wanted to post some of the things that Keanu just posted. Why is it that you people always think inside the box that you live in and then try to use your information about the box to try and prove the box's origin? Why does God have to live inside a time and space (and everything else)? The very concept of time and space, the very definition, is something a creator would have created. The things you study are the rules that a creator would create. Infinite doesn't begin or end, it's infinite on both ends. Why would God have to be created?
If the starcraft computer AI gained conciousness, it would know the rules as to gather minerals, not let your base get destroyed, etc... Even if it knew everything about the game; even if he knew how the game starts with a load screen, it would not know anything about the world outside of starcraft or how starcraft was created. This is a poor analogy, but this is teamliquid forums.
Christianity has nothing to do with any of the rituals you mention. Christianity has no rituals and the only thing it asks is that to believe you are faultless (that Jesus has already died for you). How can you relate that with why people suffer or the wars in history?
I was not born a Christian, in fact I was born in a communist country. I go to a church that is just three office buildings (originally one), no fancy church architecture or anything. We don't have a pastor (brother offer to speak, or we'd have guest speakers), nobody gets paid, there is no collection plate and in fact the offering box is well unnoticeable.
Speaking about probability, the probability of something doesn't change if you've done it more than once. When you flip a coin and it is heads, it doesn't mean it is any less likely to be heads on the next flip. This only happens if you predict that two heads will land right after each other which is when two probabilities are mutliplied with each other. Think about entropy, why doesn't objects just leave towards one direction? The probability of atoms at some moment all moving in same direction is much greater than life being created, or the universe from nothing (since we're speaking about rules within the box).
You're right about not knowing anything about what's outside the box. But all that's inside this so to speak 'box' of yours is all that is important to a person, and all he will ever have anything to do with in his life (if it wasn't the definition of this 'box' wouldn't be right). So why speculate about what's outside? for it must be something we cannot possibly begin to imagine. Why state there is a something called a creator, or God, while we have absolutely no clue?
I know I can depend on the laws of physics in the world I live in because they're proven and I know it's real. But how could I ever dedicate my life to something that is highly speculative and not logical in any way, like the existence of a God? There are just too many explanations for why it's convenient for people to make up a 'God' character, and the proves of it's existence are none.
On May 31 2004 04:42 TanGo wrote: I've only read through some of the posts given, but I still think you should prove the excistence of the so called bible. Where did it come from? Who typed it? If I remember correctly it was some man in contact with god, but you see, the problem (unless god suffers from amnesia) is that the bible was written by more than 5 people, if you study it and read every line, you can see a lot of weird things, for example, we did this in class, read 3-4 pages and then somehow, man was created and then a woman, but the bible created the woman 2 times, from a rib from the man and then some other way I cant remember right now... but you see, it is proven that the bible was written by more than 5 writers, so wtf? And the nature itself is very spectacular, there is evolution and also science knows the basic substances that every lifeform consists of and it is also researched that all those substances excisted when life evolved on earth. Some might say, like in the first post that the odds of these substances to react is one too a shit load of zeros but do you know how small these substances are? they are atoms, and do you know how many atoms there is? If you have gone to school instead of beeing taught at church you know the answer is way over a shit load of zeros, and then the chances for them to react is alot less than you say.
you dont understand at all the nature of that number in the first post, infact im not sure if you even understand simple math
Heyz im up. Bible may have been written by many different men but it is in comeplete agreement with itself. state any comment otherwise I will have to persuade otherwise. Let's all just say or "pretend" if you need to... that god exists. he would have created all things. we would not see him because he is a spirit person. The evidence he left is the physical creation we CAN see.. doesn't that pretty much explain itself?
On May 31 2004 10:30 BigBalls wrote: why should i point out his doesnt disprove religion when you already said so yourself.
if i was holding double standards i wouldnt be agnostic.
1500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you "knew" that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow.
now you're putting words in my mouth
i've never said anything about the universe not having any other life have i? show me where i did
haha, its a movie quote, men in black. it was in response to someone else, not you.
then why would you quote it to me? you were clearly making this post to me by addressing me saying your use of double standards are sickening, what the hell?
Like i said, it was in response to someone else. I didnt feel like making two posts when i could just put down a tangential quote from men in black in the same post. It wasnt towards you, it wouldnt make any sense for it to be addressed towards you. It was for the guy who said the earth was flat. I saw his post, thought of the quote and pasted it in a post I made.
On May 31 2004 10:39 I_are_n00b wrote: I was reading this thread and I wanted to post some of the things that Keanu just posted. Why is it that you people always think inside the box that you live in and then try to use your information about the box to try and prove the box's origin? Why does God have to live inside a time and space (and everything else)? The very concept of time and space, the very definition, is something a creator would have created. The things you study are the rules that a creator would create. Infinite doesn't begin or end, it's infinite on both ends. Why would God have to be created?
If the starcraft computer AI gained conciousness, it would know the rules as to gather minerals, not let your base get destroyed, etc... Even if it knew everything about the game; even if he knew how the game starts with a load screen, it would not know anything about the world outside of starcraft or how starcraft was created. This is a poor analogy, but this is teamliquid forums.
Christianity has nothing to do with any of the rituals you mention. Christianity has no rituals and the only thing it asks is that to believe you are faultless (that Jesus has already died for you). How can you relate that with why people suffer or the wars in history?
I was not born a Christian, in fact I was born in a communist country. I go to a church that is just three office buildings (originally one), no fancy church architecture or anything. We don't have a pastor (brother offer to speak, or we'd have guest speakers), nobody gets paid, there is no collection plate and in fact the offering box is well unnoticeable.
Speaking about probability, the probability of something doesn't change if you've done it more than once. When you flip a coin and it is heads, it doesn't mean it is any less likely to be heads on the next flip. This only happens if you predict that two heads will land right after each other which is when two probabilities are mutliplied with each other. Think about entropy, why doesn't objects just leave towards one direction? The probability of atoms at some moment all moving in same direction is much greater than life being created, or the universe from nothing (since we're speaking about rules within the box).
You're right about not knowing anything about what's outside the box. But all that's inside this so to speak 'box' of yours is all that is important to a person, and all he will ever have anything to do with in his life (if it wasn't the definition of this 'box' wouldn't be right). So why speculate about what's outside? for it must be something we cannot possibly begin to imagine. Why state there is a something called a creator, or God, while we have absolutely no clue?
I know I can depend on the laws of physics in the world I live in because they're proven and I know it's real. But how could I ever dedicate my life to something that is highly speculative and not logical in any way, like the existence of a God? There are just too many explanations for why it's convenient for people to make up a 'God' character, and the proves of it's existence are none.
If what's in the box is all that these people cared for, they wouldn't be trying to disprove the "religious people" on this thread. As for speculation, I can't prove anything outside this world, but if it's a given that it is impossible for this world to have made itself, then the only other way is to consider that there are a set of rules we have not thought of. Like if you went back in time and told people to explain why rain fell, they would only answer in their own knowledge base. In reality, there were a set of laws in nature they never knew.
By following this example (which is proven time after time in the course of man, in which it can basically be a scientific law), we can assume that there has to be something else, whether it's a god or some second universe or something. What relgiion you believe in is not up to me. I'm not here to convert you. If you have an open mind, read the bible. Real christianity has no rituals, go read it, there are no strings attatched, but keep an open mind about it.
...atheism is a 100 year old fad, practically every man before then that has contributed to progression has had a religion, whether that religion was christianity or not doesn't matter
Galileo, Lincoln, Darwin, Franklin, Nietzsche, Edison... just to name a few.
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." --Nietzche
Okay, this is how I'd defend those people that use faith as a weapon. After taking a leap of faith with an open mind, they experience God which develops faith. Others might have superior logic with people and out-argue them, but they have already experienced things. However, faith and trust in evolution is the same thing. If I go and argue with a slow person out on the streets and out argue them, most would still not believe.
Faith goes both ways, it doesn't only have to deal with religion.
unfortunately the only way that religious people can be disavowed of their faith is when they die. too bad when they cease to exist they won't be able to realize that they didn't go to heaven or hell or any other place.
anyone who wants to be religious, i suggest just throwing darts at a board labeled with different religions, including "lampshadism" and "superkalifragilisticexpialidoshim" because frankly those are just as likely to get you into "heaven".
On May 31 2004 11:25 I_are_n00b wrote: Okay, this is how I'd defend those people that use faith as a weapon. After taking a leap of faith with an open mind, they experience God which develops faith. Others might have superior logic with people and out-argue them, but they have already experienced things. However, faith and trust in evolution is the same thing. If I go and argue with a slow person out on the streets and out argue them, most would still not believe.
Faith goes both ways, it doesn't only have to deal with religion.
yeah, i have faith in gravity and faith in math, so 2+2=4. i pray to the math gods every night, and i plan on killing all infidels that cannot do arithmetic correctly. lets go invade a country that can't add and take their oil!
...atheism is a 100 year old fad, practically every man before then that has contributed to progression has had a religion, whether that religion was christianity or not doesn't matter
Galileo, Lincoln, Darwin, Franklin, Nietzsche, Edison... just to name a few.
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." --Nietzche
No. galileo was condemned by the church for his theories, but he was still christian.
2+2=4 is a definition set by man, it's like saying red is red. Gravity has been redefined many times, people had faith about each definition. Faith goes both ways, how can you argue that?
It didnt take much searching to find a plausible theory of evolution for the bombadier beetle.
1. Insects produce quinones for tanning their cuticle. Quinones make them distasteful, so the insects evolve to produce more of them and to produce other defensive chemicals, including hydroquinones.
2. The insects evolve depressions for storing quinones and muscles for ejecting them onto their surface when threatened with being eaten. The depression becomes a reservoir with secretory glands supplying hydroquinones into it. This configuration exists in many beetles, including close relatives of bombardier beetles [Forsyth 1970].
3. Hydrogen peroxide becomes mixed with the hydroquinones. Catalases and peroxidases appear along the output passage of the reservoir, ensuring that more quinones appear in the exuded product.
4. More catalases and peroxidases are produced, generating oxygen and producing a foamy discharge, as in the bombardier beetle Metrius contractus [Eisner et al. 2000].
5. As the output passage becomes a hardened reaction chamber, still more catalases and peroxidases are produced, gradually becoming today's bombardier beetles.
So, basically you're trying to use probability and science to prove taht someone who is not bound by the realm of science exists? It's really a matter of faith, I guess, and so you really can't convert people who aren't accepting or have even had a rough childhood or whatever. (I'm atheist btw, but I"m one of those I'm going to not sin, be good, so that if I do die, I'll still go to heaven if it exists [there's a word for this type of thinking but I forgot the term].
Anyway, these threads should be avoided becuase of the flame threads taht they quickly evolve to, I stayed with it for a bit, and then had to skip to the end.
My major beef with religion is that some people start to take it too seriously, and in the worst cases in the Middle East, it starts to become violent. I mean, obviously we don't know the consequences of if they were god-less, but there are certainly enough problems today becuase of something like religion (people not depending on themselves,church people become pedofiles from sexual inexperience, etc.)
Oh and what really pissed me off is that why did jesus have to reveal that he was God's son, why couldn't he have just kept his mouth shut and let people find out themselves? It was almost arrogance, and I'm sure if someone tried to act divine to me I'd beat him up, so. Further, his teachings. Love your brother, respect thy parents? I mean, is this stuff that only God's son could teach us? Are you joking me? Confucious, Siddartha, they didn't go spamming around they were holy, but their teachings are just as relevant. Someone please teach me on this matter please.
There is no point in questioning acts in the bible or things that the bible says.
One person said earlier that God should step in and help us along with our lives, but instead he chooses not to interfere. If he loves us so much why would he not help us out?
It is better for us to learn things for ourselves. An analogy I read in angels and demons by Dan brown goes as follows. Suppose you are a father, you have an 8 year old child. Will you refuse to allow your child to skateboard? Surely a nice parent will allow his son to skateboard if he so pleases, even though he could fall and scrape himself. However, it is better for the child to learn for himself. God intends us to learn for ourselves and act on our own while on earth. He does not act directly.
As for jesus, what is the point of him not telling? Let's suppose jesus is the son of god. He knows what is going to happen in his life, that he will be crucified. Everything he does works together smoothly. People hear he is the son of god, but the jews do not believe it is so, so they crucify him, and 2 days later see the miracle of him rising from the grave. Simple explanation.
I am not religious, im agnostic (i think thats what you are trying to claim yourself to be). I acknowledge the fact that either creation or evolution (or another known or yet unknown possibility) could have occured, but that there is no way that I can find out what happened at this moment.
However, every action of God and Jesus can be explained by either some other scripture or through simple logic.
On May 31 2004 12:35 exalted wrote: So, basically you're trying to use probability and science to prove taht someone who is not bound by the realm of science exists? It's really a matter of faith, I guess, and so you really can't convert people who aren't accepting or have even had a rough childhood or whatever. (I'm atheist btw, but I"m one of those I'm going to not sin, be good, so that if I do die, I'll still go to heaven if it exists [there's a word for this type of thinking but I forgot the term].
Anyway, these threads should be avoided becuase of the flame threads taht they quickly evolve to, I stayed with it for a bit, and then had to skip to the end.
My major beef with religion is that some people start to take it too seriously, and in the worst cases in the Middle East, it starts to become violent. I mean, obviously we don't know the consequences of if they were god-less, but there are certainly enough problems today becuase of something like religion (people not depending on themselves,church people become pedofiles from sexual inexperience, etc.)
Oh and what really pissed me off is that why did jesus have to reveal that he was God's son, why couldn't he have just kept his mouth shut and let people find out themselves? It was almost arrogance, and I'm sure if someone tried to act divine to me I'd beat him up, so. Further, his teachings. Love your brother, respect thy parents? I mean, is this stuff that only God's son could teach us? Are you joking me? Confucious, Siddartha, they didn't go spamming around they were holy, but their teachings are just as relevant. Someone please teach me on this matter please.
about jesus:
it was in line with the miracles he performed, he was the very literal start of christianity, for him to let people know he was god's son would help gain more followers to teach, which was his primary goal on earth...to teach. he was not arrogant or haughty, as shown by various times with his disciples where he would wash their feet, and again when he said not to praise him at all, that praise goes to his father. and i find its very interesting you talk about the problem you have with religion in using it to start wars and the such and then talk about jesus. a huge portion of jesus' ministry involved him ripping apart the organized religions (who said they worshipped God) who would use God for their own gain, and even those who would pray arrogantly he would chastise. God is not responsible nor is he behind those that would use religion in that way, and jesus made it quite clear.
On May 31 2004 12:52 BigBalls wrote: There is no point in questioning acts in the bible or things that the bible says.
One person said earlier that God should step in and help us along with our lives, but instead he chooses not to interfere. If he loves us so much why would he not help us out?
It is better for us to learn things for ourselves. An analogy I read in angels and demons by Dan brown goes as follows. Suppose you are a father, you have an 8 year old child. Will you refuse to allow your child to skateboard? Surely a nice parent will allow his son to skateboard if he so pleases, even though he could fall and scrape himself. However, it is better for the child to learn for himself. God intends us to learn for ourselves and act on our own while on earth. He does not act directly.
As for jesus, what is the point of him not telling? Let's suppose jesus is the son of god. He knows what is going to happen in his life, that he will be crucified. Everything he does works together smoothly. People hear he is the son of god, but the jews do not believe it is so, so they crucify him, and 2 days later see the miracle of him rising from the grave. Simple explanation.
I am not religious, im agnostic (i think thats what you are trying to claim yourself to be). I acknowledge the fact that either creation or evolution (or another known or yet unknown possibility) could have occured, but that there is no way that I can find out what happened at this moment.
However, every action of God and Jesus can be explained by either some other scripture or through simple logic.
About God not interfering, thats pretty much correct...and what happened with Job is a pretty good example of why he allows it to be that way, but it goes a bit further. Something called "the time of the nations" started with the destruction of the temple by the babylonians, and essentially is God simply taking a back seat to everything and letting us live as we want, offering help when we ask. While this time has ended, much of what it was still lingers (and then some), it goes very in depth and has alot to do with satan, i could probably explain it and give loads of interesting info but it would take me about an hour (or more) to get it all together and explain it, has a very interesting prophecy along with it too.
Well all you have to do is look at how things began... Genisis adam and eve ate the fruit right? Satan lied and told them they would become like God. That was the first human sin. God arranged for his son to die for us as a ransom so we would have a chance to live like adam and eve first intended. "At that time the eyes of the blind ones will be opened, and the very ears of the deaf ones will be unstopped. At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does." -Isaiah 35:5 but there has to be an extermanation of all people intent on destruction and lawlessness. "But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." -Revelation 11:18 Makes u think huh.
Pretty much every group of people on the face of this Earth has had a creation myth. That is, Chinese had their whole Pengu thing, the Greeks, Egyptians, and Norse all had their gods, etc. etc. Obviously this isn't a very good argument for creationism but it does serve a point, I suppose.
More interesting, however, is how exclusive religions become. For instance, Christianity: Old Testament deals with the Middle Eastern people. New Testament talks of the Romans. That's about it. So yeah, Europeans are descendants of the Romans and Americans are descendents of the Europeans, but what about the rest of the world? Where do the Asians fall in here? Africans? Aborigines of various other countries? What I mean is, supposing this God is omnipotent and omniscient over the ENTIRE universe, I wonder why there is no mention of the rest of the world, not to mention the possible alien races, etc.
Simply put, religion, at least organized religion, is not so far off from science in that it can be seen to be an attempted explanation for the world--of course one will argue that religion is SO far off from science because religion is the word from a divine level whereas science is the creation of man, but bear with me. As I've pointed out, the religions and creeds of a certain people really only succeeds in explaining the creation of said people. Obviously in the texts it says that ALL men were created, but then somehow only those that existed in the same region are recorded. It appears to be that religion is a regional phenomenon then, which of course, would deviate from the idea of a universal god.
This is not to say that a God or a higher power never existed. From a socio-political perspective, it appears that perhaps creation did occur and indeed occurred for all humans. But seeing as how the similarities between religious doctrine begins to fall apart after the creation, one may argue that perhaps that was the end of divine intervention.
So basically what I'm saying is it's possible to not believe in God, and yet still believe in creation. Or rather, not to believe in an organized religion, and still believe in God.
On May 30 2004 23:18 secrtagent wrote: Someday in the future, people will all look upon the various religions of today in the same manner scientists look upon the "gods" and religion of Greece. Even though greeks probably firmly believed in the existence and influence of many gods (sun god, sea god, god of war, etc.)...nowadays, its pretty much viewed as interesting, but nonetheless, nonsensical, myths.
We'll all have a good laugh at how gullible and vulnerable we really are . I am not trying to discourage religion... it is a very good guide to life and many people find comfort in believing in an afterlife. But one should take religion as just that... a guide to life... not the be all and end all of everything.
then why is christianity a 2000+ year religion while the greek religion lasted only in their time
The greek religion lasted 1700+ years according to this timeline http://www.yasou.org/ancient/dates.html . I believe that the greek religion only ended because the greek people were conquered by the romans. I may be wrong. I am not a history buff. But the point is, the greek religion did not end because someone just said "oh this is stupid", the greeks believed in their religion until the end. Thus, can you not admit the possibility that if the christian people were conquered or faded away...the religion of christianity could be ridiculed in the future? The idea that christianity will die anytime soon is very unlikely due to its popularity and simple ideas---live with respect to god and get into heaven. But there is always a possibility.
I think people who ONLY believe in the existence of god and people who ONLY believe there is no god, are close minded. I am more atheist than anything, but I am willing to accept the idea of a God/Ultimate Creater as being a possibility. To both sides (atheists and relgious people): Only with an open mind, can one have tolerance. And tolerance does not mean you accept/believe either point of view, it just means you tolerate the idea because it is possible.
I didn't really have time to read all 11 pages of the thread. So sorry if this has been posted - its been bothering me forever.
Question for Atheists:
If there was no god, how was the universe even created in the first place? I mean if you go back long enough - pre big bang, there shouldn't have been just "stuff" laying around that eventually became planets and big bang, etc. SOMETHING/GOD HAD to have created it since technically you can't create something out of nothing, well without divine intervention or some new science we've all never heard of.
Question for Christians:
Who made God, don't say he was there just to begin with.
Edit: Anyone who can come up with a logical answer gets a cookie ^^.
On May 31 2004 12:52 BigBalls wrote: An analogy I read in angels and demons by Dan brown goes as follows. Suppose you are a father, you have an 8 year old child. Will you refuse to allow your child to skateboard? Surely a nice parent will allow his son to skateboard if he so pleases, even though he could fall and scrape himself. However, it is better for the child to learn for himself. God intends us to learn for ourselves and act on our own while on earth. He does not act directly.
The analogy falls apart however, because the father cannot manipulate the ground to NOT scrape the son. And if he could, I'm sure he would. In that case, there would be no sense in learning anything because nothing is constant. If the son wants to do drugs, the father could simply take away all the negative aspects of drugs and allow his son to have fun. Basically, this analogy suggests that God has no dominion over the physical world and inevitably HAS TO, for whatever reason, allow his creation to be subjected to the elements, other humans, etc. Which would suggest that he is not God afterall....
And as to AeroGx's most recent post quoting from the Bible, all that shows me is that the authors of the Bible were very comprehensive. Everything's so vague that it's very easy to read anything you want into their statements. And they're so comprehensive that it covers pretty much every scenario you can think of. For instance, Heaven and Hell, how much more comprehensive can you be then that, and yet still be so vague. There's no proof for Heaven or Hell, and since we can't comprehend it, we can't question it. I mean, how idiot-proof can you get? Though, doesn't tell me a thing about Heaven, Hell, or God.
god wants to allow the chance for newborns with aids to find out on their own that life sucks when you have a lethal disease?
i don't think that most of the people who posted tried to convince blievers/non-believers that they're wrong... they're just stating their opinions, i don't think that anyone is expecting to convert anyone.
religion, as i have said, is not what you think it is, it's not what lies written in books, not what some lunatics preach.. religion is what you see on tv, what priests tell you, what they do. religion is a man praying in the church on sunday mornings and beating his wife and kids while drunk on saturdays. religion is the red cross in somalia. religion is the inquisition. religion is muslims not eating pork. i think too many people look to religion as if it was a personal, spiritual experience, and i think they are wrong. in the same way, morals are not some abstract concepts, they refer more to the scrutinable part of life, not the unseen. and god is not just some creator, 'a' god, or anything else. god is strictly related to christianity, and it has some unique properties depicted in the holy books. AND, in case you didn't know already, there can only be ONE TRUE confession. it's as absolute as it gets. and they do have rites, the real christians are those you see on gospel tv, not the ones who sit at home and just believe in god.
you may disagree with me, but remember this is just my opinion. i'm not claiming i hold all the answers, i'm not explaining how life works to you. i'm just stating my opinion. if i knew for sure that what i say is the absolute truth, u'd think i'd be a bit more vocal, don't you? and there would be a good chance you would know me from tv, or u'd think i'd kill you for refusing to acknowledge the truth... i just hope i'm not gonna get any 'everyone's a philosopher' bullshit just for having an opinion from numbskulls who don't even bother to counter my arguments in order to justify their sarcasm. as a side note, although i claim to be an atheist, i have no problems with religious people. most of the people i know are that way. and i would be just as glad to see someone escaping religion in atheism as a christian would be to see someone join the ark. it's just that i don't find it right that people allow zealots to spread their propaganda in schools and on tv. i mean, religion is not a club you join, advertising it seems to me totally contrary to its norms. but hey, maybe i'm just wrong. oh, and hell is not a pagan notion, i've seen a booklet published by some revered monk that treated the matter of the customs one has to pass in order to get into heaven. sayonara for now.
thanks to science ppl dont have to make up silly stories (aka religion) to explain things that couldnt be explained before.
bottom fact is; either there is a god or either there isn't u cant prove there is a god. you dont need to prove there isnt a god. its funny how so many clowns that post here a alwaysct like know it alls. reminds me of socretes and the know it all clowns that thought they were so smart and wise. i jsut sit back and laugh lol
Thats what im getting at creation is not going to just *poof* its there like who sees a house in a field and assumes the boards just fell on to eachother just right and the nails drove themselves into the wood and the windows were put in by chance. "Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God." -Hebrews 3:4
I'm afraid thats very unfortunate for the child and his/her parents. God didnt do that to that baby because "...time and unforseen occurence befall us all." -Proverbs 9:11
click the link all it is is the aftermath of a baby in the middle of a food fight. looks like he got nailed with some cherries and banana pie. no but seriously wut disease is that, i wouldnt want my kid to end like that looks pretty filthy
On May 31 2004 14:55 BlazeD wrote: click the link all it is is the aftermath of a baby in the middle of a food fight. looks like he got nailed with some cherries and banana pie. no but seriously wut disease is that, i wouldnt want my kid to end like that looks pretty filthy
Its called Harlequin Disease, Google it and you will se dozens of pics like those, and even more horrible :s
there is no point in trying to convince an atheist of a god existing, and there is no point in trying to convince a christian of a god not existing.
i personally dont believe in god or even a higher existence of some sort, but lets face it: there are plenty of things that science cant explain (i dont think that we will be able to explain EVERYTHING in the future, no matter how far into the future we look), and there are plenty of things that christianity (or any other religion) cant explain. its all about what you believe, these beliefs you might as well call "faith", so every person is in a way religious, imo.
Well, if you're asking why God doesn't interfere, it's because the choice is still ours. Whether you believe or not, if God interferes and shows us all miracles 24/7 it'd ruin choosing him freely.
As for the picture of the baby, since we're basing this on Christianity (and not talking solely about whether there is a God or not), disease is a consequence of sin, like all suffering is. Not only that, we're not all Jesus, and if we were, we wouldn't need him to save us. So we all live with an imperfection whatever it may be. If the baby had lived, he would serve a purpose, or gain some experience that he needed through his disease. Since he didn't, God loves kids enough to grant them salvation since they are still without conciousness to sin.
And I have not read the bible as much as I should have, feel free to correct me.
There is really no such thing as the "innocent" suffering. "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), "there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence". As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so. God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Revelation 21:4).
lol, I don't know what to believe in. Religion has its holes, and science does too. It just seems that as science advances in one area, religion retreats =/.
It's not about what you believe, it's about what is true.
Some almighty big guy who made us to worship him and be good (flawed as he himself is believed to have made us) so we can go to this place called heaven after our body and brain ceases to function is not. And throwing around random bible quotations isn't going to convince me otherwise.
I like i_are_n00b's philosophy on how anything can be possible because our perception is limited to what we are able to percieve, but in that case you could assume anything is possible, and god wouldn't be more likely than other wild fantasy that might spring to mind, so you might as well only believe in what you are able to know for sure.
We need also to recognize that our very minds were created by God. We can only use these minds to the extent that He allows, and it is, therefore, utterly presumptuous for us to use them to question Him and His motives.
I still don't see why atheists are so against christianity, I mean you believe you die and thats it, why would you care about what anyone else believes as long as they arn't causing harm to anyone i'd think you could care less and just have fun sinning. atheism is like russian roulette, you better hope your right^^
On May 31 2004 15:39 (AnGeLs) wrote: I still don't see why atheists are so against christianity, I mean you believe you die and thats it, why would you care about what anyone else believes as long as they arn't causing harm to anyone i'd think you could care less and just have fun sinning. atheism is like russian roulette, you better hope your right^^
So you believe in God because you're afraid to take chances? =)
On May 31 2004 15:39 (AnGeLs) wrote: I still don't see why atheists are so against christianity, I mean you believe you die and thats it, why would you care about what anyone else believes as long as they arn't causing harm to anyone i'd think you could care less and just have fun sinning. atheism is like russian roulette, you better hope your right^^
So you believe in God because you're afraid to take chances? =)
On May 31 2004 16:02 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote: as long as they arn't causing harm to anyone
A true Christian is after gods heart and will not harm another person, those who do so are mislead by satan and not Christians, just because someone claims to be christian and,or goes to church doesn't make him one. for Jesus said if you love me you will follow my commandments, love thy neighbor.
On May 31 2004 15:39 (AnGeLs) wrote: I still don't see why atheists are so against christianity, I mean you believe you die and thats it, why would you care about what anyone else believes as long as they arn't causing harm to anyone i'd think you could care less and just have fun sinning. atheism is like russian roulette, you better hope your right^^
So you believe in God because you're afraid to take chances? =)
On May 31 2004 15:57 AeroGx wrote: Dear angel Did you not read to "Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord."? -Ephesians 5:10
Assuming your talking about the russian roulette post and Ephesians 5 saying love your lord and give thanks to him. Sureley I'm not Christian just because I fear god and what he has created for sinners(hell), I love my lord, but fearing the lord is a perfectly good reason to be Christian. Jer 5:22 (NIV) "Should you not fear me?" declares the Lord. "Should you not tremble in my presence?" Ps 34:11 (NEB) Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord. Ps 89:7 (NIV) In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared. Job 23:13-16 (NIV) "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases. He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store. That is why I am terrified before him; when I think of all this, I fear him. God has made my heart faint; the Almighty has terrified me." Prov 16:6 (NEB) ...the fear of the Lord makes men turn from evil. Job 28:28 (NEB) ..."The fear of the Lord is wisdom, and to turn from evil is understanding." Ps 19 (NIV) The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever
Let me point out that I don't fear satan, but God. Matthew 10:28 (NIV) [Jesus] "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
On May 30 2004 23:18 secrtagent wrote: Someday in the future, people will all look upon the various religions of today in the same manner scientists look upon the "gods" and religion of Greece. Even though greeks probably firmly believed in the existence and influence of many gods (sun god, sea god, god of war, etc.)...nowadays, its pretty much viewed as interesting, but nonetheless, nonsensical, myths.
We'll all have a good laugh at how gullible and vulnerable we really are . I am not trying to discourage religion... it is a very good guide to life and many people find comfort in believing in an afterlife. But one should take religion as just that... a guide to life... not the be all and end all of everything.
then why is christianity a 2000+ year religion while the greek religion lasted only in their time
The greek religion lasted 1700+ years according to this timeline http://www.yasou.org/ancient/dates.html . I believe that the greek religion only ended because the greek people were conquered by the romans. I may be wrong. I am not a history buff. But the point is, the greek religion did not end because someone just said "oh this is stupid", the greeks believed in their religion until the end. Thus, can you not admit the possibility that if the christian people were conquered or faded away...the religion of christianity could be ridiculed in the future? The idea that christianity will die anytime soon is very unlikely due to its popularity and simple ideas---live with respect to god and get into heaven. But there is always a possibility.
I think people who ONLY believe in the existence of god and people who ONLY believe there is no god, are close minded. I am more atheist than anything, but I am willing to accept the idea of a God/Ultimate Creater as being a possibility. To both sides (atheists and relgious people): Only with an open mind, can one have tolerance. And tolerance does not mean you accept/believe either point of view, it just means you tolerate the idea because it is possible.
im sorry, i miss stated myself. the greek religion lasted a long time, yes, but it was confined just with the greeks, christianity has become part of many different cultures and has spread around the world. thats what i meant in this way. buddhists have been around for a very long time along with their offshoots, the muslim religions have been around for over 1000 years i believe, but christianity is unique in the fact that it goes beyond national and cultural borders and has followers all around the world, not just in those particular nations that the religion happens to originate from
On May 31 2004 13:30 0_0 wrote: I didn't really have time to read all 11 pages of the thread. So sorry if this has been posted - its been bothering me forever.
Question for Atheists:
If there was no god, how was the universe even created in the first place? I mean if you go back long enough - pre big bang, there shouldn't have been just "stuff" laying around that eventually became planets and big bang, etc. SOMETHING/GOD HAD to have created it since technically you can't create something out of nothing, well without divine intervention or some new science we've all never heard of.
Question for Christians:
Who made God, don't say he was there just to begin with.
Edit: Anyone who can come up with a logical answer gets a cookie ^^.
christian answer: god is an abstract concept, no abstract concept is ever "made", ie: numbers
I'm not going to read this whole thread, but did anyone question him how he came up with the "odds there is no creator?" Did he multiply the number of humans by the number of turds someone takes in a life time?
On May 31 2004 17:18 Countdown wrote: I'm not going to read this whole thread, but did anyone question him how he came up with the "odds there is no creator?" Did he multiply the number of humans by the number of turds someone takes in a life time?
this is such a ridiculous argument. there either is or there isn't, no probability needed
not when you exhale your last breath and for a second you realize you've lived all your life wrong as your life slips through your hands you experience the deepest fear of knowing you will simply stop existing
Ok I took an aggressive approach to this thread earlier but here I go, again.
Atheism is not a religion. It's a belief or state of mind. Therefore, we don't have missionaries. We don't have any rituals or religious celebrations (with the exception of Christmas, presents = gg). We do not try to get in the way of other people. But we do get annoyed when the opposite happens. Maybe I should've used the collective term more carefully but I think that is a fairly accurate generalization. In fact, history shows us that Christians have often been the oppressors.
The thing that baffles me the most is that Christians (I don't know why it's always Atheist vs Christians and not any other religion. Probably because Christianity is most widespread and dominant.) try to prove their God's existence with the Bible. Is it just me or does everyone else see anything coming from a Bible as a VERY weak arguement.
Why must morality and mind have been created by God? It is because it is too difficult to explain? If you insist on using these qualities of life to try to prove your religion's validity (by this, I only mean the truth. Not right or wrong, since every religion has its good sides and bad sides.)
I cannot prove that God does not exist nor can anyone prove he does exist but I will show why your arguements don't justify his existence.
If god created love, that would mean he created hate too? Contradiction here?
Morality is not an inherent trait as some as you claim. It is affected and acquired by the environment of the individual. Thus, morality can also change and be shaped. How can I prove this? Let's see. There are countless examples. Different cultures produce different morals. Before I give you an example, we have to both agree on the definition that morality is what lets a human being differentiate right from wrong. Since I'm Korea, this is an easy example. - In Korea, looking into an elder's eyes is heavily frowned upon. - In America, looking into anyone's eye is a show of respectful attention.
More? In native areas, or during earlier times in certain areas, a women not covering her breasts is acceptable. It's not even questioned. It's a matter of fact. She would not be considered a slut and exiled or punished as she would have been in another place of another time period. So, if you're saying that morality is inherent in all human beings, that would mean the first human being desperately searched for clothing to cover his/her body? Most likely not.
This bit will be to show why something inexplicable should not always be credited to God. Dogs are colorblind. They cannot see color. Since they cannot fathom the concept of colors, does that mean color is magical? No. According to dictionary.com, color is:
a. The appearance of objects or light sources described in terms of the individual's perception of them, involving hue, lightness, and saturation for objects and hue, brightness, and saturation for light sources. b. The characteristics of light by which the individual is made aware of objects or light sources through the receptors of the eye, described in terms of dominant wavelength, luminance, and purity.
Just as dogs have a hard time understanding colors, there is bound to be things we, the self-proclaimed, most intelligent species, cannot fully understand, such as time or infinity.
Somethings we may never be able to define or understand, but that does not mean God, which is soley based on faith, should be the best and correct explanation.
Aside from logic, various religions contradict themselves and each other so often. If there are hundres of religion that each holds a different belief, there are only a few possible answers.
- None of them are right --> Atheism - They are all right, which means Gods are the creation of imagination and faith. Man created God. (If man created God, how could God have created man?)
Why can't only 1 be the 'right' one? Because if one religion is *SOMEHOW* proven to be fake, that questions every single religion's veracity. It's an all-or-nothing situation.
Hm. This has been probably one of my longest posts but I cannot describe or explain everything I have on my mind, although I wish I could.
On May 31 2004 17:36 baal wrote: not when you exhale your last breath and for a second you realize you've lived all your life wrong as your life slips through your hands you experience the deepest fear of knowing you will simply stop existing
but i wont, because i believe in God, and i will die a happy death knowing that i've done what God wants of me and am getting the ultimate reward at the end. don't try and push your beliefs on me buddy
On May 31 2004 17:39 Heen wrote: Ok I took an aggressive approach to this thread earlier but here I go, again.
Atheism is not a religion. It's a belief or state of mind. Therefore, we don't have missionaries. We don't have any rituals or religious celebrations (with the exception of Christmas, presents = gg). We do not try to get in the way of other people. But we do get annoyed when the opposite happens. Maybe I should've used the collective term more carefully but I think that is a fairly accurate generalization. In fact, history shows us that Christians have often been the oppressors.
The thing that baffles me the most is that Christians (I don't know why it's always Atheist vs Christians and not any other religion. Probably because Christianity is most widespread and dominant.) try to prove their God's existence with the Bible. Is it just me or does everyone else see anything coming from a Bible as a VERY weak arguement.
Why must morality and mind have been created by God? It is because it is too difficult to explain? If you insist on using these qualities of life to try to prove your religion's validity (by this, I only mean the truth. Not right or wrong, since every religion has its good sides and bad sides.)
I cannot prove that God does not exist nor can anyone prove he does exist but I will show why your arguements don't justify his existence.
If god created love, that would mean he created hate too? Contradiction here?
Morality is not an inherent trait as some as you claim. It is affected and acquired by the environment of the individual. Thus, morality can also change and be shaped. How can I prove this? Let's see. There are countless examples. Different cultures produce different morals. Before I give you an example, we have to both agree on the definition that morality is what lets a human being differentiate right from wrong. Since I'm Korea, this is an easy example. - In Korea, looking into an elder's eyes is heavily frowned upon. - In America, looking into anyone's eye is a show of respectful attention.
More? In native areas, or during earlier times in certain areas, a women not covering her breasts is acceptable. It's not even questioned. It's a matter of fact. She would not be considered a slut and exiled or punished as she would have been in another place of another time period. So, if you're saying that morality is inherent in all human beings, that would mean the first human being desperately searched for clothing to cover his/her body? Most likely not.
This bit will be to show why something inexplicable should not always be credited to God. Dogs are colorblind. They cannot see color. Since they cannot fathom the concept of colors, does that mean color is magical? No. According to dictionary.com, color is:
a. The appearance of objects or light sources described in terms of the individual's perception of them, involving hue, lightness, and saturation for objects and hue, brightness, and saturation for light sources. b. The characteristics of light by which the individual is made aware of objects or light sources through the receptors of the eye, described in terms of dominant wavelength, luminance, and purity.
Just as dogs have a hard time understanding colors, there is bound to be things we, the self-proclaimed, most intelligent species, cannot fully understand, such as time or infinity.
Somethings we may never be able to define or understand, but that does not mean God, which is soley based on faith, should be the best and correct explanation.
Aside from logic, various religions contradict themselves and each other so often. If there are hundres of religion that each holds a different belief, there are only a few possible answers.
- None of them are right --> Atheism - They are all right, which means Gods are the creation of imagination and faith. Man created God. (If man created God, how could God have created man?)
Why can't only 1 be the 'right' one? Because if one religion is *SOMEHOW* proven to be fake, that questions every single religion's veracity. It's an all-or-nothing situation.
Hm. This has been probably one of my longest posts but I cannot describe or explain everything I have on my mind, although I wish I could.
no no NO as;lkjfdfdas;lkjasfd;lkjfds;lkjfdas God did not create love, he did not create hate, he did not create morality. these are ABSTRACT CONCEPTS. The bible says jesus was the first creation of God, but love existed before jesus because God himself is love. thus, because its an abstract concept, God didn't create love, it's a product of him. So the counterpart of love -- hate -- is the product of God's counterpart, Satan. Morality wasn't created by God either, it's a product of him, and thats the big question...if morality isn't the product of God, what is it the product of? again, freud (who contributed more than most know to the theories of evolution) states that because there is no god, there is no morality either.
On May 31 2004 17:47 baal wrote: oh you will have that second im talking about, you will
infact, i will have an infinitely happier death than you mr. atheist, because you die knowing thats it for you and i die knowing i get the ultimate reward
It would be dumb to be scared of death, its just stop existing, if your brain could actually conceptualize that you would see that actually its a very confortable state.
But ofcourse anyone who can conceptualize something that "hard" well, would be smart enough to leave any religion so i dont really expect you to understand it.
On May 31 2004 17:47 baal wrote: oh you will have that second im talking about, you will
infact, i will have an infinitely happier death than you mr. atheist, because you die knowing thats it for you and i die knowing i get the ultimate reward
That's exactly my point. Christians transform emotions into a story.
If God is omnipotent, Satan would be nonexistent. If both God and Satan were omnipotent, what is the point of endless fighting? Everything has to be simplified into good versus evil. I don't quite understand that. Christianity should be left as a guideline at best, not a story of abstract ideas, as you put it, that is considered to be the truth.
The after-life concept to make yourself feel superior is rather pointless and flawed. Think. Why exactly are you pitying him?
On May 31 2004 17:47 baal wrote: oh you will have that second im talking about, you will
infact, i will have an infinitely happier death than you mr. atheist, because you die knowing thats it for you and i die knowing i get the ultimate reward
On May 31 2004 18:09 Heen wrote: That's exactly my point. Christians transform emotions into a story.
If God is omnipotent, Satan would be nonexistent. If both God and Satan were omnipotent, what is the point of endless fighting? Everything has to be simplified into good versus evil. I don't quite understand that. Christianity should be left as a guideline at best, not a story of abstract ideas, as you put it, that is considered to be the truth.
The after-life concept to make yourself feel superior is rather pointless and flawed. Think. Why exactly are you pitying him?
Theres a part i dont get, since the devil is the source of temptation and all Evil... well all religious fanatics keep saying how EVIL the world is and bad stuff happens everywhere blah blah blah...
So in conclusion i think, THE DEVIL IS KICKING SOMEONES ASS MWHAWHAWHA
On May 31 2004 18:05 baal wrote: It would be dumb to be scared of death, its just stop existing, if your brain could actually conceptualize that you would see that actually its a very confortable state.
But ofcourse anyone who can conceptualize something that "hard" well, would be smart enough to leave any religion so i dont really expect you to understand it.
you can say that now, but that one second before you die, you will look back and realize everything you've done in your life will no longer matter, and that blackness that rolls over your eyes will be your final sight, and you will cease to be. you will fear death at that moment more than you've ever feared anything before in your life
On May 31 2004 18:09 Heen wrote: That's exactly my point. Christians transform emotions into a story.
If God is omnipotent, Satan would be nonexistent. If both God and Satan were omnipotent, what is the point of endless fighting? Everything has to be simplified into good versus evil. I don't quite understand that. Christianity should be left as a guideline at best, not a story of abstract ideas, as you put it, that is considered to be the truth.
The after-life concept to make yourself feel superior is rather pointless and flawed. Think. Why exactly are you pitying him?
it was said facetiously, i dont pity anyone, i wanted to see the responses
On May 31 2004 18:09 Heen wrote: That's exactly my point. Christians transform emotions into a story.
If God is omnipotent, Satan would be nonexistent. If both God and Satan were omnipotent, what is the point of endless fighting? Everything has to be simplified into good versus evil. I don't quite understand that. Christianity should be left as a guideline at best, not a story of abstract ideas, as you put it, that is considered to be the truth.
The after-life concept to make yourself feel superior is rather pointless and flawed. Think. Why exactly are you pitying him?
Theres a part i dont get, since the devil is the source of temptation and all Evil... well all religious fanatics keep saying how EVIL the world is and bad stuff happens everywhere blah blah blah...
So in conclusion i think, THE DEVIL IS KICKING SOMEONES ASS MWHAWHAWHA
if you dont know at all about what you're talking about, why talk?
You know what is funny Keanu Reaver, that i actually know more about the BIBLE than you do.
I studied elementary school and highschool in a religious private school, also coming from a catholic family an ALSO, im from mexico, the country with HIGEST percentage of Catholics (99%).
So if you are going to try to "lecture" me attack my mind, not my knowledge cuz well dude, you are going to be overwhelmed
On May 31 2004 18:05 baal wrote: It would be dumb to be scared of death, its just stop existing, if your brain could actually conceptualize that you would see that actually its a very confortable state.
But ofcourse anyone who can conceptualize something that "hard" well, would be smart enough to leave any religion so i dont really expect you to understand it.
you can say that now, but that one second before you die, you will look back and realize everything you've done in your life will no longer matter, and that blackness that rolls over your eyes will be your final sight, and you will cease to be. you will fear death at that moment more than you've ever feared anything before in your life
Who do you think you are? Why do pretend that you know so much, things you haven't even come close to experiencing? There are many people who do not believe in God that die very comfortably. Stop making uneducated and prejudiced assumptions. People are generally more intelligent now. Using the Protestant fear-tactic is outdated, just so you know.
On May 31 2004 18:40 baal wrote: You know what is funny Keanu Reaver, that i actually know more about the BIBLE than you do.
I studied elementary school and highschool in a religious private school, also coming from a catholic family an ALSO, im from mexico, the country with HIGEST percentage of Catholics (99%).
So if you are going to try to "lecture" me attack my mind, not my knowledge cuz well dude, you are going to be overwhelmed
On May 31 2004 18:05 baal wrote: It would be dumb to be scared of death, its just stop existing, if your brain could actually conceptualize that you would see that actually its a very confortable state.
But ofcourse anyone who can conceptualize something that "hard" well, would be smart enough to leave any religion so i dont really expect you to understand it.
you can say that now, but that one second before you die, you will look back and realize everything you've done in your life will no longer matter, and that blackness that rolls over your eyes will be your final sight, and you will cease to be. you will fear death at that moment more than you've ever feared anything before in your life
Who do you think you are? Why do pretend that you know so much, things you haven't even come close to experiencing? There are many people who do not believe in God that die very comfortably. Stop making uneducated and prejudiced assumptions. People are generally more intelligent now. Using the Protestant fear-tactic is outdated, just so you know.
gee, when he said the same thing to me, why weren't you jumping on him? typical atheist double standard, you guys are all alike
On May 31 2004 18:40 baal wrote: You know what is funny Keanu Reaver, that i actually know more about the BIBLE than you do.
I studied elementary school and highschool in a religious private school, also coming from a catholic family an ALSO, im from mexico, the country with HIGEST percentage of Catholics (99%).
So if you are going to try to "lecture" me attack my mind, not my knowledge cuz well dude, you are going to be overwhelmed
i guarantee you, you are wrong
I am so sure i am NOT wrong, that i bet an eternity in flames
On May 31 2004 18:39 VdP]DreaM wrote: Just out of curiousity, have they proved Jesus existed?
they have found a tombstone of sorts, dating back to jesus' time, with the heading "jesus, son of joseph, brother of james", which coincides with jesus, who's father was joseph, and brother was james. Whether or not that proves jesus existed is a different thing, atheists will pass it off im sure
I don't know what post you're talking about, really. I skimmed through most posts in this thread. You keep using imaginary superioty as your defense whenever I seem to point out your flaws. If anything, I feel even more superior to you when you resort to worthless arguements. Besides, they say a lie is only a lie if you know what you're saying is incongruent with your feelings or beliefs.
On May 31 2004 18:39 VdP]DreaM wrote: Just out of curiousity, have they proved Jesus existed?
Just so you know the bible isnt the only text that talks about jesus. The first-century Jewish historian Josephus reffered to the stoning of "James, the brother of Jesus who was called the christ."(The Jewish Antiquities, Josephus, Book XX sec.200) Go to your public library! =D
On May 31 2004 18:52 VdP]DreaM wrote: Ah right, ok. What about that cloth in Italy I think it is, that they believe Jesus was wrapped in?
Yeap, i dunno the english traslation, but that Turin Rag has been prove to be false, they first made a test to the corners but they realized it was another thread that the middle, so the second test showed discrepancies.
Please say that IM WRONG and its real so i can link the study results and bitch slap you
On May 31 2004 18:40 baal wrote: You know what is funny Keanu Reaver, that i actually know more about the BIBLE than you do.
I studied elementary school and highschool in a religious private school, also coming from a catholic family an ALSO, im from mexico, the country with HIGEST percentage of Catholics (99%).
So if you are going to try to "lecture" me attack my mind, not my knowledge cuz well dude, you are going to be overwhelmed
i guarantee you, you are wrong
I am so sure i am NOT wrong, that i bet an eternity in flames
how about that biatch
you dont even know what the conditions of the earth mean and you're sitting here telling me you know more than me? here's a test for you:
1) what was the first prophecy 2) name 3 people in Jesus' line with the exception of his father, adam, eve, and abel 3) what is the purpose of the earth 4) who was the author of the books of: 1st corinthians, 1st Timothy, and Psalms 5) When was the temple destroyed 6) who built the temple 7) who built the tabernacle 8) who is michael 9) name both of abrahams sons 10) to whom did pharoah celebrate a birthday with? and whom did he have hung?
On May 31 2004 18:53 Heen wrote: I don't know what post you're talking about, really. I skimmed through most posts in this thread. You keep using imaginary superioty as your defense whenever I seem to point out your flaws. If anything, I feel even more superior to you when you resort to worthless arguements. Besides, they say a lie is only a lie if you know what you're saying is incongruent with your feelings or beliefs.
14th page, third post down, i'll quote it: "not when you exhale your last breath and for a second you realize you've lived all your life wrong as your life slips through your hands you experience the deepest fear of knowing you will simply stop existing"
i may come off as elitist, but its more disgust. i've talked with atheists so much and a smart and level headed atheist is great to debate with, but your typical run of the mill atheist is so haughty and acts so superior to people with religions (always saying religion is a crutch, or its for the weak, or smart and open minded people dont believe in religion) that its disgusting. and of course when i return fire with the same attitude i get ridiculed for it? typical atheist double standard
There is more historical proof that Jesus existed than julius caesar, and no one i know walks around claiming julius isnt real :p Anyone who seriously takes the stand point that jesus never walked the earth is a moron whose not actually looked into it, and just sprouting crap they picked up somewhere. The real debate isn't if he existed, its is he the son of god? That one i'll leave to other people who can be bothered to argue a topic without a clear answer :p
taking you quite a while to answer my test baal, these are all extremely basic questions with answers spanning much more than a chapter each (except for maybe 8), im surprised you cant just bust them out with your obviously superior knowledge of the bible
are you gone? or maybe you're googling the answers?
Wow. Did you just demand an intelligent debate? Hypocrisy just burst through the roof. You're the one bringing in emotion into the debate. You are upset at something I did not even do intentionally. If there are two murderers and only one gets jailed, does that mean the one who got jailed did not deserve that punishment? Regardless, I am debating against you and other Christians. So my focus is mainly on Christians.
For your cute little tomb. You were right. Atheists do pass it off as fake.
On May 31 2004 19:10 Heen wrote: Wow. Did you just demand an intelligent debate? Hypocrisy just burst through the roof. You're the one bringing in emotion into the debate. You are upset at something I did not even do intentionally. If there are two murderers and only one gets jailed, does that mean the one who got jailed did not deserve that punishment? Regardless, I am debating against you and other Christians. So my focus is mainly on Christians.
For your cute little tomb. You were right. Atheists do pass it off as fake.
To quote the article: "no physical evidence from the first century has ever been conclusively tied with his life."
Christians have to resort to these kind of things to deceive atheists? Tsk Tsk.
no i didn't demand an intelligent debate, you're putting words into my mouth, i said i enjoyed debating with an intelligent atheist, i didn't enter this thread to find enjoyment, nor did i enter expecting an intelligent debate, what i expected is just what i got. emotion was brought into the "debate" long before i even bothered posting in it, and i dont believe you did it unintentionally. once again you are a typical run of the mill atheist, your entire "side" of this debate has been demeaning religion and acting superior to it, yet when i return fire in the same manner you ridicule me for it, that's hypocrisy. when i say something so ridiculous to one of your buds you rip into me for it, only to find he said the same thing to me...then you tell me it was unintentional and you expect me to take that pathetic little excuse to validate your lack of double standards? well ok, why dont you go ahead and rip into him the same way you ripped into me, i mean you're not a hypocrite at all are you?
as for the jesus box thing, i trust cnn.com, so i concede that, and i feel its retarded for a christian to do such a thing (if it was a christian), i dont hold double standards, i rip into christians just as i rip into atheists. And i've said it before, both sides, for the most part, make me sick. But, there is many writings on jesus ministry not only in the bible, as that dude up there said there is more proof of jesus' existance than there is of julius caesars. im not going to argue the point with you though as its irrelevant.
Accusing each other of hypocrisy can continue indefinitely so I'll stop.
If you want an intelligent debate, let's start one then. The first thing you could do is point me to a reliable source that supports your stance. Otherwise, it would be ridiculous to make a statement and take no responsibility for it in a debate.
On May 31 2004 19:25 Heen wrote: Accusing each other of hypocrisy can continue indefinitely so I'll stop.
If you want an intelligent debate, let's start one then. The first thing you could do is point me to a reliable source that supports your stance. Otherwise, it would be ridiculous to make a statement and take no responsibility for it in a debate.
take a look at this thread, tell me without a shadow of a doubt that atleast some (practically all imo) of the atheists here are either belligerent, or ignorant. im not going to wade through the crap to try and hold an intelligent debate with you, but if you do want one, then by all means lets have one on aim
I know this is probably completely pointless, since no-one here will change their mind even after hearing all this, but oh well, here goes nothing... (I don't even know why I bother)
God is. He wasn't "created", he created everything else. He hasn't "been there for all time", he made time. God is. He is completely different from anything we can imagine. Christians call this difference holiness.
God is good. He isn't good because he chooses to be good. He is good because that's the definition of good. Good is God's will. Likewise, evil is against God's will. Nothing can change good and evil.
God is 1 God in 3 Persons. He is 1 What in 3 Whos. God the Father is one of the Whos. God the Son is another. God the Holy Spirit is another. These 3 Whos, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, make up our understanding of God, the What. Of course, He is beyond our understanding, but this is as close as we can come.
God created everything. He created the universe. He created the world. He created Adam and Eve. He created a bountiful array of creatures. He created the angels, including Satan. He also created free will. By giving us free will, God gave us the choice to either be good or evil. (You remember that part about good and evil, don't you?) Most of the angels chose to be good. But Satan, however, chose to be evil. He rebelled against God, and was defeated. God punished him by sending him to Hell.
Adam and Eve were also given free will. At first, they chose to be good. Life was wonderful in the Garden of Eden. But Satan decided that he wasn't satisfied. He wanted us in Hell with him. So he talked Eve into eating an apple from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Eve shared the fruit with Adam and they became enlightened. But not enlightened in the traditional sense. They became enlightened of what evil was like, and by disobeying God, they became evil. God cast them out of the Garden of Eden for being evil, and life was miserable. There were still good things like love, but they had been disfigured by evil. They were no longer what God had intended for us.
You might ask why God created free will when he knew all this would happen. Well, think about it. If there were no free will, we wouldn't really be human. We would be like robots, programmed to do God's bidding. That's not what God intended either.
So what was to come of all this? We had committed the most horrible crime in the universe, disobeying God. Since God is infinitely just, this crime must be punished by the most horrible penalty, death. Not just death of the body, but death of the spirit. We couldn't set ourselves right, because we didn't have the power to. Think of it this way: If you cut off your own hands, could you perform surgery to put them back on? Of course not. It seemed all was lost.
But God is merciful as well as just. He figured out a way for our debt to him to be paid. He would pay it himself. The second Person of God (Jesus) came to us as a human boy born to Mary and Joseph in a smelly stable. He died on the cross for us, and by his death repaid our debt to him. We had been freed from our eternal punishment.
Then, you ask, why did he leave us here to deal with evil on our own? Well, he didn't. Before he left for Heaven to rejoin the Father, he gave his disciples a gift. That gift was the Holy Spirit. Now the Holy Spirit is in each one of us, enabling us to fight evil with the power of God. He gave his Apostles the ultimate divine ability, the ability to forgive sins. Thus, we don't need to worry about evil taking over the world. All we need to do is fight it, and we can be assured that one day it will be gone.
And that's the end of my speech. That was probably rather pointless, since no-one here will bother to read it all the way through, but at least I tried.
is it just me, or do christians ultimately win? If your a christian, a true one, you really, really beleive, so will be content with living a life dictated by the bible. If you die and you were right, you go to heaven. If you were wrong, your dead, so guess what, you won't care!
On the other hand, a none believer might have a wonderful life here, if christianity is true though, they are screwed once they die, and if they were right, and there is nothing beyond death, there dead. I guess this doesn't totally work as there are probably people with other obsure beliefs, and reincarnation etc
On May 31 2004 19:42 VdP]TwistedEcho wrote: is it just me, or do christians ultimately win? If your a christian, a true one, you really, really beleive, so will be content with living a life dictated by the bible. If you die and you were right, you go to heaven. If you were wrong, your dead, so guess what, you won't care!
On the other hand, a none believer might have a wonderful life here, if christianity is true though, they are screwed once they die, and if they were right, and there is nothing beyond death, there dead. I guess this doesn't totally work as there are probably people with other obsure beliefs, and reincarnation etc
If i truely belive in an allmighty pink elephant i'd ultimately win... anyway it DOESNT make it any more real -___________-
BTW just went to have dinner and this has another page, one of the fastest growing threads
Bah, all this god shit. He can go fuck himself. He doesnt give a shit about us and he never will. Where was he when 6 million of 'His' people were slaughtered? Would you let your most loved ones suffer such a fate? Where was he a few years ago when some poor kid somewhere in this Earth was born with AIDS? Where was he when that same kid had live a life of IMMENSE suffering? What did that kid do? God's plan for it to be that way? Plan my ass. And if he did love us so much, why would he even send us to hell? Do any of us really deserve hell? Think about it, even though some people have committed atrocities, do they really deserve ETERNITY in hell? I would never send anyone to hell for eternity, EVEN IF he murdered one of my family members. I would make him pay dearly but eternity in hell is too much of a extreme.
I really hope he sends me to hell so that I can enlist in the army and fight against God for eternity. I want him to suffer with pain just as much as we've had to suffer for him putting us on this planet. Im not talking about the people who live good lives without suffering like you and me and the rest of this forum, im talking about the billions of people everyday who wake up to a life of hopeless shit.
I dont believe in any ideal humanity has created himself. Humans created God therefore there will always be flaws about God. If humans stopped believing in God, God would disappear and cease to exist. However, God was never a 'thing' he was just a made up concept thanks to human imagination.
I love your hate against GOD yay! cultivate it and make it your best friend >
and if im sent to hell, ill help you build an army to fuck that bastard...
considering that only __________ (insert your stupid religion here) belivers are going to heaven and the rest to the hell, we have a big number advantage hahahahaha
im immediately enlisting and going in the front lines. Im gonna give those religious fanatics one hell of a fight before I go down.
Exactly Baal, the more people that dont believe the better. More will go to hell and before you know, heaven is all empty. Then maybe God will start using his head again since the creation and think "hmmmm, I really fucked up bad".
To liquid~spy, what I said can't open up all the possibilities of our imagination because that's only if we think "outside the box", which means it acknoledges that there's something out of this world. May it be God or whatever, it's a step.
1) what was the first prophecy 2) name 3 people in Jesus' line with the exception of his father, adam, eve, and abel 3) what is the purpose of the earth 4) who was the author of the books of: 1st corinthians, 1st Timothy, and Psalms 5) When was the temple destroyed 6) who built the temple 7) who built the tabernacle 8) who is michael 9) name both of abrahams sons 10) to whom did pharoah celebrate a birthday with? and whom did he have hung?
1)Gen3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." 2)You want Matthew or Luke lineage? Mat (not in Luke): Eleazar - Matthan - Jacob - Josef Luke (not in Mat): Levi - Matthat - Heli - Josef So who was Josefs father anyway? 3)A question open to interpretation. But I'd say to glorify its creator. 4)Paul, Paul, David (for the most part) 5)Which one? The temple of Salomon was destroyed in 586 BC, the temple of Herod (named after him while he didn't start it, but actually greatly expanded it) was destroyed in 70 AD. 6)See above. 7)Bezaleel and Aholiab (under the command of Mozes) 8)There are many Michaels in the bible, but i presume you mean the archangel, commander of the heavenly armies one? 9)Ishmael and Isaac 10)The chief butler. The chief baker.
But I don't believe in the existence of the god claimed in your book. I think the only reason people do is because they've been brainwashed with it. I was too for a long time.
thinking about creationism vs evolutionism is like thinking about big unlikely apples vs apples. the fact that we we evolved is obvious.
whether or not unknown things exist has an obvious answer in my mind. whether or not a greater power that has a consciousness or any sort of programming is a whole nother question. I tend to question why something with an agenda would create us and then not let us understand it, so im not gonna believe in something with no reason to.
1) what was the first prophecy 2) name 3 people in Jesus' line with the exception of his father, adam, eve, and abel 3) what is the purpose of the earth 4) who was the author of the books of: 1st corinthians, 1st Timothy, and Psalms 5) When was the temple destroyed 6) who built the temple 7) who built the tabernacle 8) who is michael 9) name both of abrahams sons 10) to whom did pharoah celebrate a birthday with? and whom did he have hung?
1)Gen3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." 2)You want Matthew or Luke lineage? Mat (not in Luke): Eleazar - Matthan - Jacob - Josef Luke (not in Mat): Levi - Matthat - Heli - Josef So who was Josefs father anyway? 3)A question open to interpretation. But I'd say to glorify its creator. 4)Paul, Paul, David (for the most part) 5)Which one? The temple of Salomon was destroyed in 586 BC, the temple of Herod (named after him while he didn't start it, but actually greatly expanded it) was destroyed in 70 AD. 6)See above. 7)Bezaleel and Aholiab (under the command of Mozes) 8)There are many Michaels in the bible, but i presume you mean the archangel, commander of the heavenly armies one? 9)Ishmael and Isaac 10)The chief butler. The chief baker.
But I don't believe in the existence of the god claimed in your book. I think the only reason people do is because they've been brainwashed with it. I was too for a long time.
Oh sorry, i think that test was for me, i didnt see it ._.v anyway it not hard at all.
Laptop Legacy you have no idea how good is to find someone who is an atheist BY OWN DECITION, not like those idiots that never even thinked about it, people who really came to the conclussion that there is no god.
Its good to know there is still hope for the humans intellectualy speaking
I was raised as a christian btw, went to a school where they taught the bible. Not that strict and all, but my parents still believe although they visit church less often nowadays. I came to my conclusions about religion when I was about 12 I think :/
God is good. He isn't good because he chooses to be good. He is good because that's the definition of good. Good is God's will. Likewise, evil is against God's will. Nothing can change good and evil.
A very interesting thesis. However, if you accept this then you have to accept that by an act of will God could reverse the poles and in an instant everything that was evil would become good. So, for instance, he could make murder 'good', or incest, or *gasp* even map hacking.
The notion that any of these acts could be 'good' in some sense strikes me as being unacceptable.
Would you accept these consequences of your thesis about the source of goodness?
If you bought into whatever version of the creationism myth your parents presented you with, or, after doing your own research, embraced as your own, your opinion is now void. You lack critical thinking skills and the world would be a better place without you.
Most christians pride themselves on their faith because they believe that by following a bunch of heavily edited and altered guidelines they will be rewarded in the afterlife. Those guys are untouchable and trying to argue with them is like trying to squeeze water from a rock. Which I'm sure isn't that remarkable a feat if you're Jesus.
Once some religious nutbag enters the realm of science though, and there's actual historical, archaelogical and geological evidence to refute basically everything they believe to be true, you can fuck some shit up. You'll make them look stupid, but they won't renounce their faith.
Have any of you (christians) even read the bible? It's very convenient to just accept what you're prestented with as fact, but the glaring contradictions and ridiculous stories depicted in this poorly written and extremely boring work of fiction I'm sure would give even the most zealous church-goer at least a moment of doubt.
If I was a reasonable man I would probably be an agnostic, but the existence of an omnipotent creator (who somehow seems to need constant praise...) is just so silly a notion that the probability of it being true ranks somewhere in the googoled percentile.
Organized religion is the most evil concept ever. Ever. It's responsible for the deaths of quadrillions of people, it preaches intolererance, and it holds back the developement of the human species on a global scale.
We're all randomly assembled bits of matter. Out of billions of stars and planet combination ours happened to spawn life. Big whoop. When we die we decompose and we'll be gone.
Christianity denounces pride. Christianity has no demands other than accepting that Jesus died for you. Christianity is against ritualism, to do something solely for religious purposes.
How can it even be counted as a religion? There aren't any demands, you don't have to donate money, no rituals, etc... Unlike everything else in this world, what did the creator of this "religion" have to gain from it? If Jesus created it to be famous, then that means he wanted to get crucified on the cross and live a meager life? And since if Jesus created it, then it'd all be fiction and he wouldn't be saved, so he wouldn't be concious, so what's the point of being famous when he won't know?
Christianity states that pride is a sin. So it's not a form of eliteism. Whoever wrote made this religion up must have been retarded from a worldly point of view, since he wouldn't get any gains. What other religion is like this? One that gives you rules and then tells you you've already failed but I passed for you so you don't have to follow them anymore?
baal, where is that list of contradicting morals and excerpts from the bible that you quoted last religion vs atheism thread? They were awesomely funny. One of them went something like: "No man shall wear clothing with mixed threads, wool shall not mix with cotton." Obviously a very liberal rememberance of the qoute.
Most importantly, when you ask for forgiveness, dont you have to specifically request and denouce certain sins? If this is the case, those who read the bible.. which is many. Its like punching your god in the face whenever you wear your jacket and jeans to school. And i pity the fool who will apologize for the their jeans, but says to himself "oh its ok, ill pray for myself later" Which in point, would mean you would have no moral restraints, aslong as you can sin and feel sorry for it.
I find it curious that most people on here who are anti-religion, or at least in this thread, are vehemently and seemingly bitterly so.
Arbiter: Presupposing that an all-good God exists and supposing that He created all things, then it would stand to reason that all things are inherently and completely good in their natural state. Now the actions we refer to as evil are lacking either somewhat or entirely of goodness; all actions have a place and purpose, but its when they are misused that they begin to lack. You see? For instance, sex. Sex with the proper intentions is a fantastic thing. But in the case of rape, well you're lacking both love and consent. You could in turn, see lust as a lack of reason.
So evil isn't really something all to itself; its a lack of something good.
I understand your post entirely, although I make no comment on it at this time. My previous post was tightly focused on a specific thesis proposed by another writer, which, with respect, you reply does not address. You have proposed a number of other interesting ideas but they do not relate to the point I was discussing.
NTT wrote: "We're all randomly assembled bits of matter. Out of billions of stars and planet combination ours happened to spawn life. Big whoop. When we die we decompose and we'll be gone"
On June 01 2004 07:04 I_are_n00b wrote: Christianity denounces pride. Christianity has no demands other than accepting that Jesus died for you. Christianity is against ritualism, to do something solely for religious purposes.
How can it even be counted as a religion? There aren't any demands, you don't have to donate money, no rituals, etc... Unlike everything else in this world, what did the creator of this "religion" have to gain from it? If Jesus created it to be famous, then that means he wanted to get crucified on the cross and live a meager life? And since if Jesus created it, then it'd all be fiction and he wouldn't be saved, so he wouldn't be concious, so what's the point of being famous when he won't know?
Christianity states that pride is a sin. So it's not a form of eliteism. Whoever wrote made this religion up must have been retarded from a worldly point of view, since he wouldn't get any gains. What other religion is like this? One that gives you rules and then tells you you've already failed but I passed for you so you don't have to follow them anymore?
Christianity doesn't denounce pride. It denounces Pride, as in the sin. Yes, there is a difference. Lowercase "pride" is the emotion of being happy that something good has happened. Capital "Pride" is the sin of acting like you are the only one who did anything to make it happen. "Pride" is basically arrogance. "pride" is like parents being proud of their son graduating from college.
Also, Christianity has more demands than simply accepting the fact that Jesus died for us. Of course, that's integral, but there is much more. Since Jesus died, we have been given a mission to spread his Word to everyone. We must show by our words and actions that we follow the Almightly God. We can't just say, "I believe in God" and go kill someone. We have to live like decent human beings. Unlike some people...
"We can't just say, "I believe in God" and go kill someone. We have to live like decent human beings. Unlike some people..."
Well thats the thing, the Bible provides loopholes where there shouldnt be any, and brick walls where there should be considerations.
Let me give you two the most used examples ive used in religious debates with people i know.
1) A loophole: Any person that commits a great sin has the rest of his/her life to feel sorry for it. Now lets say for example a kid was youthful and hotheaded and killed a policemen who was servicing his country by trying to stop him from robbing a store. That kid then spends his older years in prison feeling sorry for himself and turns to god for forgiveness. Any christian i ask, will (even with some sadness) say if that kid/man truly feels sorry for what hes done, he will yet see heaven if he abides to the words of god and the bible. MyResponse: bullshit.
2) Brickwall: Lets take a monk from tibet (hypethetical situation), hes lived most his life off of the food him and his fellow monks have made. He appreciates all forms of life, and displays none of the '7 deadly sins'. He lives a long loving life where he helps who ever is in need.
That same monk takes in a person who is spreading the word of the Christian God. The monk out of respect learns of this religion and even goes as far as to read the bible. Although that monk has been taught the essence of the religion the monk obliges him by speaking from his own heart, saying that there are many forms of great religion but he does not believe in Jesus or this God and cannot embrace them in his heart. So he sends the man on his way.
Any Christian ive spoken to will have to conceed that this monk now will go to hell. Hes been introduced to the religion so the loophole of "the im not aware of this god so my ignorance is forgiven". It specifically states (although i do not know where only been told by christians) that if you leanr of god and jesus and refuse them into your heart, you will be cast into hell. MyResponse: bullshit.
Arbiter: It does relate, but maybe I didn't make it clear enough; for murder or incest to become "good," it would require a true paradox. Our presupposed God is and defines existence, and as I said, evil is a lack (or non-existence) of something.
So for evil things to become good, you would have to invert God and make him evil... and in practical theory you'd wipe out creation.
On June 01 2004 10:34 SW)RIF wrote: "We can't just say, "I believe in God" and go kill someone. We have to live like decent human beings. Unlike some people..."
Well thats the thing, the Bible provides loopholes where there shouldnt be any, and brick walls where there should be considerations.
Let me give you two the most used examples ive used in religious debates with people i know.
1) A loophole: Any person that commits a great sin has the rest of his/her life to feel sorry for it. Now lets say for example a kid was youthful and hotheaded and killed a policemen who was servicing his country by trying to stop him from robbing a store. That kid then spends his older years in prison feeling sorry for himself and turns to god for forgiveness. Any christian i ask, will (even with some sadness) say if that kid/man truly feels sorry for what hes done, he will yet see heaven if he abides to the words of god and the bible. MyResponse: bullshit.
2) Brickwall: Lets take a monk from tibet (hypethetical situation), hes lived most his life off of the food him and his fellow monks have made. He appreciates all forms of life, and displays none of the '7 deadly sins'. He lives a long loving life where he helps who ever is in need.
That same monk takes in a person who is spreading the word of the Christian God. The monk out of respect learns of this religion and even goes as far as to read the bible. Although that monk has been taught the essence of the religion the monk obliges him by speaking from his own heart, saying that there are many forms of great religion but he does not believe in Jesus or this God and cannot embrace them in his heart. So he sends the man on his way.
Any Christian ive spoken to will have to conceed that this monk now will go to hell. Hes been introduced to the religion so the loophole of "the im not aware of this god so my ignorance is forgiven". It specifically states (although i do not know where only been told by christians) that if you leanr of god and jesus and refuse them into your heart, you will be cast into hell. MyResponse: bullshit.
As for your loophole: Aren't you being kind of intolerant? If people state their opinions and give reasons for them, that's ok. But you just say "bullshit" without even listening or presenting your own evidence. You're giving a bad name to athiests.
As for your brick wall: The same intolerance issue goes for that too. But, I would also like to point out that the Chrisians you spoke to about this didn't really know what they were talking about. That monk wouldn't necessarily go to Hell. He might go to purgatory, where he would see that there is only one God. But he wouldn't go straight to Heaven. Very few people go straight to Heaven. If this monk continued to lead a good moral life, I would say he won't go to Hell. And don't just say "bullshit", at least argue your case. You're proving that athiests are closed-minded bigots more than Christians.
That was hardly a word for word description of how my debates went haha. Bullshit is a sum it all up reaction. These are family members and friends i debated with. I am a very polite person.
Oh ONLY purgatory. Isnt that where suicides go, which is completely condemned in the eyes of god. Im sure purgatory isnt Bad. HF monk.
Dont assume im not a tolerant person because you'd be quite alarmed at how tolerant and patient i am in real life. Its one of my defining attributes... even among happy go lucky religious friends.
edit: by the by, my examples were my defense. If you dont understand the hypocrisy of the statements, then maybe you need to let it sink in more. I dont need to support that which is already my point.
RIF, thats using an objective argument on a subjective target. And its in the Catholic catechism that only those who knowingly and willfully reject God, knowing that he was real, accepting it, etc. are they cast into hell. Speak less from thine ass, heathen!
You have no point obsolete please try again. The monk doesnt have to believe in God if he was proposed the idea of God. Maybe thats why athiests are all going to heaven ehh? They were told about God and didnt believe... its called an anology my friend. Monk = Athiest in the anology. If you refuse God in the time of awareness you are denying him. Therefore you go to ... ding ding ding. Hell.
On June 01 2004 10:34 SW)RIF wrote: "We can't just say, "I believe in God" and go kill someone. We have to live like decent human beings. Unlike some people..."
Well thats the thing, the Bible provides loopholes where there shouldnt be any, and brick walls where there should be considerations.
Let me give you two the most used examples ive used in religious debates with people i know.
1) A loophole: Any person that commits a great sin has the rest of his/her life to feel sorry for it. Now lets say for example a kid was youthful and hotheaded and killed a policemen who was servicing his country by trying to stop him from robbing a store. That kid then spends his older years in prison feeling sorry for himself and turns to god for forgiveness. Any christian i ask, will (even with some sadness) say if that kid/man truly feels sorry for what hes done, he will yet see heaven if he abides to the words of god and the bible. MyResponse: bullshit.
2) Brickwall: Lets take a monk from tibet (hypethetical situation), hes lived most his life off of the food him and his fellow monks have made. He appreciates all forms of life, and displays none of the '7 deadly sins'. He lives a long loving life where he helps who ever is in need.
That same monk takes in a person who is spreading the word of the Christian God. The monk out of respect learns of this religion and even goes as far as to read the bible. Although that monk has been taught the essence of the religion the monk obliges him by speaking from his own heart, saying that there are many forms of great religion but he does not believe in Jesus or this God and cannot embrace them in his heart. So he sends the man on his way.
Any Christian ive spoken to will have to conceed that this monk now will go to hell. Hes been introduced to the religion so the loophole of "the im not aware of this god so my ignorance is forgiven". It specifically states (although i do not know where only been told by christians) that if you leanr of god and jesus and refuse them into your heart, you will be cast into hell. MyResponse: bullshit.
i think a better question would be, if 1john 4:8 is true, why does hell exist. and that other guy who said they would go to purgatory, where in the bible does it say purgatory exists?
On June 01 2004 08:59 SW)RIF wrote: baal, where is that list of contradicting morals and excerpts from the bible that you quoted last religion vs atheism thread? They were awesomely funny. One of them went something like: "No man shall wear clothing with mixed threads, wool shall not mix with cotton." Obviously a very liberal rememberance of the qoute.
YAY !!!!!
an oportunity to post them again... ok ill post them again in a few minutes, yeah i remember that mixed threads and that KILL your son if he dissobeys you...
1)Disrespect you 2)encouraged you to join other faith than christianity 3)Is killed in the name of Jesus
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death? (Exodus 21:17). ?If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy firend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods?thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die? (Deuteronomy 13:6-10). ?And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name?s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved? (Matthew 10:21-22)
Girls with jeans and Scottish dudes are fucked up cuz god says is an abomination for women to use pants and viceversa LOL
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God? (Deuteronomy 22:5)
Oh and boldness its not because genetic, its a punishment for the allforgiving GOD!:
And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink, that instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty? (Isaiah 3:24). ?Baldness is come upon Gaza; Ashkelon is cut off with the remnant of their valley: how long wilt thou cut thyself?? (Jeremiah 47:5)
And im saving the good ones when the christians start bitching about this
On June 01 2004 10:59 ObsoleteLogic wrote: evil is a lack (or non-existence) of something.
You are denying the existance of a Devil, ruler of evil...
so you are denying the bible belief's, so you belive in the Devil as such or you just made ANOTHER religion
BTW i respect you very much as a poster, and as a good poster you are, you should pick your battles, and this one... is a battle you CANT win and you know it.
baal thats it? most of those were out of context, and the one in matthew isn't even relevant...i was expecting more man what of the "good ones" you were saving?
so basically every parent has the right to kill their children, as every child in the history of earth has disrespected their parents at one point or another?
1) what was the first prophecy 2) name 3 people in Jesus' line with the exception of his father, adam, eve, and abel 3) what is the purpose of the earth 4) who was the author of the books of: 1st corinthians, 1st Timothy, and Psalms 5) When was the temple destroyed 6) who built the temple 7) who built the tabernacle 8) who is michael 9) name both of abrahams sons 10) to whom did pharoah celebrate a birthday with? and whom did he have hung?
1)Gen3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." 2)You want Matthew or Luke lineage? Mat (not in Luke): Eleazar - Matthan - Jacob - Josef Luke (not in Mat): Levi - Matthat - Heli - Josef So who was Josefs father anyway? 3)A question open to interpretation. But I'd say to glorify its creator. 4)Paul, Paul, David (for the most part) 5)Which one? The temple of Salomon was destroyed in 586 BC, the temple of Herod (named after him while he didn't start it, but actually greatly expanded it) was destroyed in 70 AD. 6)See above. 7)Bezaleel and Aholiab (under the command of Mozes) 8)There are many Michaels in the bible, but i presume you mean the archangel, commander of the heavenly armies one? 9)Ishmael and Isaac 10)The chief butler. The chief baker.
But I don't believe in the existence of the god claimed in your book. I think the only reason people do is because they've been brainwashed with it. I was too for a long time.
1. correct 2. correct, good research too (to answer your question, the 23rd verse of luke states "as the opinion was" or something to that effect, meaning that because of the nature of the world at that time and the cultural clashes, its most likely that jacob was heli in roman dialect, though i dont want to get into it) 3. incorrect, isaiah 45:18 clearly states the earth's purpose is to be inhabited 4. correct 5. incorrect, the temple of solomon was destroyed in 607 bce 6. i was refering to the first temple, which im sure you know the answer too 7. correct 8. im speaking of the arch angel 9. correct 10. correct
6 out of 10 (7 including the one about who built the temple) not bad at all
The Lord's will is to have the word spread throughout the Earth. Whether you become an instrument of God is your choice. The definition of the Word that we're to spread is that once you accepted forgiveness you're free from your past, present and future sins. Of course, the Lord's will WILL be done, but that does not mean everyone has to have an active role. Everything you do for the Lord after you accepted His forgiveness is out of your own free will if you want to develop a deeper relationship with Him. As for your capitalized version of pride, it really depends on your definition. I always thought they meant the same thing (as in lower case = upper case) and it's not just "the emotion of being happy that something good has happened". I know that being proud does not mean you have pride, there's a difference, but whatever.
So to the guy who suggested that I we beg forgiveness when we wear jeans, not only did you say "I heard somewhere..." so you don't even know, but also, remember that all sins are forgiven. The Lord would still like you to admit and repent any sins you commit today or anything you can think of, but again, you'd do it out of free will and also if you don't it doesn't not condemn you.
"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy firend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods,thou shalt surely kill him"
I think there is no second meaning or paradox in there....
It clearly says, that if someone tries to persuade you to change of religion, KILL HIM!!!!, even if its your own SON, or father or mother.
On June 01 2004 17:37 Hot_Bid wrote: so basically every parent has the right to kill their children, as every child in the history of earth has disrespected their parents at one point or another?
no, thats not what the bible teaches he's speaking of the mosaic law which has long since been abolished.
On June 01 2004 17:44 baal wrote: Well just read this carefully:
[color = "red"] "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy firend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods,thou shalt surely kill him" [/color]
I think there is no second meaning or paradox in there....
It clearly says, that if someone tries to persuade you to change of religion, KILL HIM!!!!, even if its your own SON, or father or mother.
On June 01 2004 17:50 baal wrote: You have a very confortable position, just saying its truth the parts you like about the bible...
but when a part its just too obsolete and ridiculous to the modern age it becomes ABOLISHED.
That is a law created by man, not by god, as all in the bible!.
Soon that law against condoms and pills will be abolished too, because its ridiculous as the rest of the bible.
im not saying its untrue, that was the nature of the relationship between God and Israel back then, but its still the mosaic covenant. the coming of jesus ended the mosaic covenant as was foretold. its all in the bible that you profess to know so much about.
On June 01 2004 17:50 baal wrote: You have a very confortable position, just saying its truth the parts you like about the bible...
but when a part its just too obsolete and ridiculous to the modern age it becomes ABOLISHED.
That is a law created by man, not by god, as all in the bible!.
Soon that law against condoms and pills will be abolished too, because its ridiculous as the rest of the bible.
im not saying its untrue, that was the nature of the relationship between God and Israel back then, but its still the mosaic covenant. the coming of jesus ended the mosaic covenant as was foretold. its all in the bible that you profess to know so much about.
So that invalidates all prior-christ text, so the old testament is full of BULLSHIT.
Now its time to quote from the New-testament, lets see what you say about that
a year ago, for the first time, my roommate went to some church event and came back all fervent and excited about religion, he was convinced the bible was a historical document. my friend and i proceeded to convince him that he was acting ridiculous. just now we were talking about it and he said it was the best thing i've ever done for him--convincing him to stop going. i feel so happy! i guess we will both be going to hell! awesome!
On June 01 2004 17:50 baal wrote: You have a very confortable position, just saying its truth the parts you like about the bible...
but when a part its just too obsolete and ridiculous to the modern age it becomes ABOLISHED.
That is a law created by man, not by god, as all in the bible!.
Soon that law against condoms and pills will be abolished too, because its ridiculous as the rest of the bible.
im not saying its untrue, that was the nature of the relationship between God and Israel back then, but its still the mosaic covenant. the coming of jesus ended the mosaic covenant as was foretold. its all in the bible that you profess to know so much about.
So that invalidates all prior-christ text, so the old testament is full of BULLSHIT.
Now its time to quote from the New-testament, lets see what you say about that
it invalidates the laws passed on the israelites, not the old testament. and i shudder to think what scriptures you'll confront me with next, since the only new testament scripture you quoted was so pathetically irrelevant and out of context that it baffles my mind that you somehow expected it to prove that jehovah advocates killing children in the messianic covenant
but by all means, lets see what you can misconstrue into contradiction according to God's will next.
On June 01 2004 10:59 ObsoleteLogic wrote: Arbiter: It does relate, but maybe I didn't make it clear enough; for murder or incest to become "good," it would require a true paradox. Our presupposed God is and defines existence, and as I said, evil is a lack (or non-existence) of something.
So for evil things to become good, you would have to invert God and make him evil... and in practical theory you'd wipe out creation.
Dig my jive?
First, you are strictly correct in saying your post 'related' to the one I was replying to in that it addresses the same topic. However, it simply offers a different thesis to the one I was replying to and thus does not impact directly on my reply. The post I was replying to claimed that what was and was not good was defined by an act of will of God, very different from the thesis you are proposing, I think.
Nevertheless, addressing your thesis directly, I am now not entirely clear what you mean by 'evil is a lack (or non-existence) of something'. If we take an (unfortunately) everyday evil act, such as murder, how is this a lack of something?
OK sissy biatches, be ready, here comes the KNOCK OUT PUNCH:
When was Jesus born?
According to Matthew, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1). Herod died in March of 4 B.C., so Jesus had to have been born BEFORE that time.
But . . .
According to Luke, Jesus was born during the first census in Israel, while Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). This census took place in 6 AD and 7 AD, about 10 years after Herod's death.
After Jesus was born where did Mary, Jesus and Joseph go?
According to Matthew, Jesus was born in a house in Bethlehem. (Matthew 2:11) They immediately left in a panic to Egypt because an angel told them that Herod was going to try to kill Jesus. (Matthew 2:13) Afterwards, they are going to return to Bethlehem, but decide to go to Nazareth instead to avoid danger. (Matthew 2:22-23)
But . . .
According to Luke, Mary and Joseph were from Nazareth and went to Bethlehem only for a census. (Luke 2:4). Instead of being born in a house, Jesus was born in a manger because there was no room in an Inn. (Luke 2:7). After the birth, they waited only for Mary to go through ritual purification, whereupon they went to Jerusalem to sacrifice two birds. (Luke 2:22-24). After that, they went immediately home to Nazareth. (Luke 2:39)
Who was Joseph's father?
It was important to Luke and Matthew to establish that Jesus' bloodline went to King David, so that He would fulfill prophesy. Of course, since Joseph was not Jesus' father, any genealogy starting with Joseph seems somewhat pointless, but this didn't stop our imaginative authors. The only problem is: their family trees don't correspond.
"And JACOB begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus." (Matthew 1:16)
But . . .
"And Jesus being the son of Joseph, which was the son of HELI." (Luke 3:23)
Where was the "Sermon on the Mount" held?
While we commonly think of the sermon being held on a mountain (from its name alone), truly the New Testament is better than Conde Nast when it comes to choosing locations!
"And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...." (Matthew 5:1-2)
But . . .
"And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..." (Luke 6:17-20)
What were Jesus' last words on the cross before He died?
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" [Psalm 22:1] ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost." (Matt. 27:46-50)
But . . .
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Luke 23:46)
But . . .
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19:30)
On the third day after Jesus' death, who first came to the tomb?
Mary Magdalene alone (John 20:1)
But . . .
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Matt. 28:1)
But . . .
Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome (Mark 16:1)
But . . .
Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary, the mother of James, and other women (Luke 24:10)
What happened to Judas?
Matthew 27:5 states that he threw down his silver, ran from the temple, and hanged himself.
But . . .
Acts 1:16-19 states, however, that he bought some land with his money, and that he had a fall, causing him "to burst open in the middle" so that his "bowels gushed out. And it became known to all of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akaldama, that is, Field of Blood."
How are we saved?
"For by grace are we saved through faith...not of works" EPH 2:8-9.
But . . .
"...and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works" REV 20:13.
But . . .
"Ye see then that by works a man is justified, not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" JAMES 2:26
When giving His disciples tips on how to accessorize their outfits:
When Jesus summons the twelve disciples to send them out to proclaim the kingdom of God, he lists the things the disciples should not take with them.
In Matthew 10-10 and Luke 9:3-5, a staff is included in the list of things not to take.
But . . .
In contradiction to Matthew and Luke, Mark 6:8 makes a specific exception - the disciples may take a staff.
On June 01 2004 19:23 (AnGeLs) wrote: lol... all your answers to those and more at http://debate.org.uk/topics/apolog/contrads.htm too lazy to post, even though i saw answers to all your questions there.
On June 01 2004 18:26 GoSexyPerli wrote: alright. Most of us are intelligent here. As far as human minds are concerned.
now, listen everyone, listen close....
None of us will ever know the truth. There are things in this universe that are beyond us. Just exactly what or who they are has billions of possibilites. Athiests are morons and ignorant. Religion is ignorant and moranic.
I want you to just stop and think about existence.
go ahead, think about it.
It was obviously formed in some way our stupid little brains just can never realize. Whether by god, or some undefined aura of alien energy, the possilities are endless.
The entire human species are ignorant, trapped on an island surrounded by a sea of an infinity of knowledge and space.
Each "contradiction" on that page has a "catagory" in which the author puts each one. And just by looking through those, I know you didn't take more than 10 seconds to look at that.
On June 01 2004 20:54 Klogon wrote: Each "contradiction" on that page has a "catagory" in which the author puts each one. And just by looking through those, I know you didn't take more than 10 seconds to look at that.
omg a red nick in the thread... that cant be good :p
On June 01 2004 21:02 Tien wrote: Baal, I support you 100% on your never ending quest to destroy religion. Once religion is dead, so is God. ohhhh, I cant wait till that day happens.
Your first point: firstly, the time of herod's death is speculation at best, josephus' own writings indicate that he could have died anywhere from 4bce to 1ce due to the nature at which the jewish calendar and the nature at which a person gains the throne is. as for quirinus, josephus states varus rules prior to herods death, and his predecessor was saturninus. the importance? quirinus ruled before saturninus, thus quirinus time was likely to be around 2-3bce at the end of his governship. the way 4ce came about was through scholars not understanding that dual governship was a popular thing among the romans as many had done this before and after. the innaccuracy of josephus' dating is also in question as he was not born for another 40 years after this as well. You offer proof of contradiction based on nothing but speculation?
your second point about where they went isn't even a contradiction, in luke it states they brought him to jerusalem *after purifying him*, this happened after they had escaped into egypt. i love you forgot to mention that part
your third point: edit: read up a bit more, i didn't need to speculate at all, heli is is on mary's side
your fourth point: both state he went up to the mountain, both state he sat down, both state his disciples came to him, both state he spoke to his disciples, from there matthew states he began teaching to the astonishment, luke states he found solid ground and began teaching and healing the masses. again you left something out, in matthew it states when he went down from the mountain, great crowds crowded around him and he healed a leprous man there...upon reading these two sermons, the one recorded in matthew is much different from the one recorded in luke. sounds more like harmony, both describe different sermons but both describe him going up to the mount, his disciples going up, him coming down and healing, and him then going to capernaum. no contradiction
your fifth point: out of context. the gospels are the accounts of jesus as told through matthew, luke, mark, and john; as such they will include certain things the others will not include, such as your above point where matthew included the sermon on the mount but not the sermon afterwards, while lukes included the sermon afterwards but not the one on the mount, this one is no different, they each included something jesus said but not the same thing that he said. with this being said, the only account that states these jesus actual final words was the one in luke, matthew does as well but it states a loud cry which the one in luke is most likely. the first thing he said was the one found in psalm and matthew, those even state he cried again after the vinegar, as then he received the vinegar. then of course what he says after the taking of the vinegar is the one found in luke, he then bows his head and thats where he says the one found in john, as thats when he dies.
your sixth point: another one from the gospels! again same as above, these are of the four writers of the gospels and thus differ but dont directly contradict, the account in luke mentions that many women went, and they went and told many...the first to rush off were peter simon and the other disciple, this shows that likely john knew only of those three rushing out, and from this we can see that it was mary magdalene that told those three. the one is matthew says that mary magdalene and mary mother of james reported to the disciples, so mary mother of james reported to the other discples other than peter and simon and the fast one, and this is what matthew knew of. while the one in luke says the women reported to the eleven and "all the rest", thus joanna and the others reported whomever "all the rest" may be, and this is what luke knew of. again, if you treat the gospels as four seperate historical documents, you'll see they don't contradict.
your seventh point (wearing down..): this one is tough, but what the priests say is very important. because of the nature of hebrew law, that money was still considered to belong to judas outlined by what the priests say. so the priests had to do with the money something for judas, so they bought potters field. fast forward to acts, peter in that account talks of his intestines bursting forth in the midst of...potters field. the conclusion? matthew says judas hung himself, not that he died from being hung, because they bought potters field with judas' money and going along with what happened in acts, judas attempted to hang himself over this field most likely on the branch of a tree overlooking a cliff which he then leaped off of. what happened then is the branch or the rope broke, and he plummeted down where he landed with a splat in potters field, which the priests then bought as it was the easiest way to get rid of the money and hold true to the law.
your eighth point: easiest one yet, just had to re-read the scriptures at ephesians to realize the one at ephesians is talking about it was gods works gives men the opportunity to be saved, not man's works. thats what is meant by "god's gift"
your last point: i'd say this one is your strongest, but the ones in matthew and luke are talking about after being received in a home not to take any belongings of the home owners or purchasing in addition too while the one in mark is saying for their journey carry nothing but a staff.
as i expected, everything taken out of context. and as i expected, it was all of the gospels. im sure you're going to say im manipulating the scriptures to fit in with what i want, but until you realize you're doing the exact same thing, dont bother replying telling me that.
as for the website...yeah it talked mostly about faults in translation, and im sure if we could all read the most ancient known bible with no translation whatsoever everything would be much easier to understand. if they give direct examples of words misinterpreted (or lack a suitable copy in the english language), give a definition of that said word, and that alters the scripture enough to disprove any of the contradictions, then great. otherwise, whatever
why is there even a debate. the first page of this thread covers it. gg no re believers. who cares whether one part of the bible is almost right or contradicts another or not. jesus christ fuck it.. i would go on but it's already been said very early in this thread. i know it feels all comforting and magical to think a deity is watching u and listening to u and guiding u and providing u a good afterlife and theres a book ur supposed to believe and stories ur supposed to believe but damn snap out of it
it sure was easier to believe in nazi germany, but thats not the point. difficulty has nothing to do with it. u think if its harder to be christian that means it's right? i'm sure its pretty hard to be a serial rapist too but i dont see you standing up for them.
I was once a catholic, lived a rough life, so I gave up on God. Now, I'm much older and more mature about bullshit I used to deal with. I started praying like once or twice a week at least, but I always still think there is something above.=/
i used to be a catholic too. i went to lots of catholic schools. it wasnt horrible or dumb or anything, it was pretty normal really. the singing and ceremonies actually feel kinda neat when u believe in them. it's not really that bad imo. it's probably good for people actually
On June 01 2004 09:29 Konni wrote: NTT wrote: "We're all randomly assembled bits of matter. Out of billions of stars and planet combination ours happened to spawn life. Big whoop. When we die we decompose and we'll be gone"
I couldn't have said it better
I could.
Organized bits of matter does not create a consciousness.
Millions of geniuses have believed in a god, whether defined by a known religion or not.
On June 01 2004 09:29 Konni wrote: NTT wrote: "We're all randomly assembled bits of matter. Out of billions of stars and planet combination ours happened to spawn life. Big whoop. When we die we decompose and we'll be gone"
I couldn't have said it better
I could.
Organized bits of matter does not create a consciousness.
The existence of consciousness provides no evidence whatsoever for anything very much. We do not understand consciousness; we do not even have the conceptual framework to think or discourse clearly on the subject. Attempting to use it as evidence for the existence (or non-existence for that matter) of God or anything else is a complete and utter dead end.
On June 01 2004 09:29 Konni wrote: NTT wrote: "We're all randomly assembled bits of matter. Out of billions of stars and planet combination ours happened to spawn life. Big whoop. When we die we decompose and we'll be gone"
I couldn't have said it better
I could.
Organized bits of matter does not create a consciousness.
Millions of geniuses have believed in a god, whether defined by a known religion or not.
The point you make is that "Organized bits of matter does not create a consciousness." Prove it. Are you just trying to use your logic to make such an assumption without ANY FACTS to support you? Well unfortunately for you according to biology, amino acids were able to be formed experimentally when enough heat or pressure was applied to certain elements. As we evolve there is a good possibility that consciousness will come about. If we all thought the way you did, we would still be living in the stone age thinking only God can unravel the mysteries of life. From monkeys we came, not Adam and Eve, not God.
Please, do not mix religion with science, science has no room for religion. Just because we are conscious of ourselves doesnt mean it is impossible for evolution to create us that way. Yet your theories about a God are still unproven in the domain of science. Stick to morality and religion, thats where God was invented, and thats where God should remain. He has no business in the realm of science.
When Galileo was asked where God fit into his equations and explanations, he simply replied "I have no need for such a hypothesis."
EDIT: Scientifically there should be no reason why God exists either.
I havnt really followed the whole thread but...to reply to the Post: If one of 5*10^~100, or any finite number, things occurs regulary in an infinite amount of time, _all_ of the things would occur sooner or later. And second, doesnt that high number just give the possibility that a human would pop out of nowhere?
Whoo I come too late to this topic. 21pages... Well I just answer to the first post and say. That number is something some christian pulled out of some random hole in his body. I guess someone have said this already but anyway. Have a nice day and if you didn't know. God does not exist and there is proof for the evolution.
On May 30 2004 22:15 Ryan307 wrote: if you give 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 monkeys 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 typewriters they will produce the works of shakespeare.
well, probably not, but you know what i'm trying to say.
I'm agnostic myself.
As a wise man once said... The internet has proved the above wrong.
Its not "randomness" by the way, atoms makes complex and more complex structures, leading to a lifeform is unevitable, it doesnt matter how many randomness in the big bang is, it will always create a lifeform, and probably with time superior atom masses, pure energy benigs maybe, who knows.
But its stupid to think this is a "random" event, cause its not, its a natural, logic, non-created step in universe expansion.
BTW stimey its good to see im not in your ignore list anymore, and its even better to see that actually you are smart enough to have a little bit of introspection and fine criticism.
Actually, Tien, scientists haven't proved that if you mix up chemicals and heat them or zap them with a spark, them will form persistent amino acids. They do form aminos, but the aminos quickly separate again. The scientists have to screen harmful light, remove linked aminos, cleanse the ingredients, etc. to actually keep some form of amino acids. In other words, scientists have proved that chance just won't cut it. Intelligent life has to be there to sort everything out.
I must also add that science has its roots in Christianity. That's right, without Christianity science wouldn't be where it is today. You see, ancient people used to think the world was made of god-like things. The rivers, the plants, the sun, they were all divine. But then Christianity came along and those things weren't divine anymore, they were part of our world. Being part of our world and being entrusted to us in Genesis, we were free to explore them through science. Nowadays, however, science has drifted away from religion, which is probably why you say "science has no room for religion". Still, we can't ignore history.
On June 02 2004 11:48 baal wrote: Its not "randomness" by the way, atoms makes complex and more complex structures, leading to a lifeform is unevitable, it doesnt matter how many randomness in the big bang is, it will always create a lifeform, and probably with time superior atom masses, pure energy benigs maybe, who knows.
But its stupid to think this is a "random" event, cause its not, its a natural, logic, non-created step in universe expansion.
BTW stimey its good to see im not in your ignore list anymore, and its even better to see that actually you are smart enough to have a little bit of introspection and fine criticism.
Rugbug, the thing is that they never inserted their religon into their scientific work. The fact that a few important people were christian doesn't subtract from the fact that the christian church as a whole has held back science for hundreds of years.
"if you give 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 monkeys 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 typewriters they will produce the works of shakespeare."
god, I'm so incredibly tired of people fucking that up.
it's not 5000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 or ANY NUMBER. even if the number has a fucking BAZILLION 0's in it. if you write a number, it DOES NOT WORK.
it's an INFINITE amount of monkeys with an INFINITE amount of typewriters.
in fact, if you give an infinite amount of monkeys an infinite amount of typewriters, you'll reproduce an infinite amount of shakespeare's works. you'll also have an infinite amount of papers going 784237214g32krjbasjfbdsafta78t4wntkdzxbhg7xh789t45ehstlrh5u and tjk4hert874nf87xng5xe8ng5oexnt7849hs
and "lol" and "why are people fucking up that quote so often"
in fact the monkeys would also reproduce this very post an infinite amount of times.
On June 02 2004 07:03 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: The existence of consciousness provides no evidence whatsoever for anything very much. We do not understand consciousness; we do not even have the conceptual framework to think or discourse clearly on the subject. Attempting to use it as evidence for the existence (or non-existence for that matter) of God or anything else is a complete and utter dead end.
What the hell are you talking about. I didn't use the existence of consciousness as evidence for anything, only to show that things aren't so fucking simple.
On June 01 2004 09:29 Konni wrote: NTT wrote: "We're all randomly assembled bits of matter. Out of billions of stars and planet combination ours happened to spawn life. Big whoop. When we die we decompose and we'll be gone"
I couldn't have said it better
I could.
Organized bits of matter does not create a consciousness.
Millions of geniuses have believed in a god, whether defined by a known religion or not.
The point you make is that "Organized bits of matter does not create a consciousness." Prove it. Are you just trying to use your logic to make such an assumption without ANY FACTS to support you? Well unfortunately for you according to biology, amino acids were able to be formed experimentally when enough heat or pressure was applied to certain elements. As we evolve there is a good possibility that consciousness will come about. If we all thought the way you did, we would still be living in the stone age thinking only God can unravel the mysteries of life. From monkeys we came, not Adam and Eve, not God.
Please, do not mix religion with science, science has no room for religion. Just because we are conscious of ourselves doesnt mean it is impossible for evolution to create us that way. Yet your theories about a God are still unproven in the domain of science. Stick to morality and religion, thats where God was invented, and thats where God should remain. He has no business in the realm of science.
When Galileo was asked where God fit into his equations and explanations, he simply replied "I have no need for such a hypothesis."
EDIT: Scientifically there should be no reason why God exists either.
Why would I have to prove it? Your post doesn't even make any fucking sense. I was just making a post stating that as I said, things are not so simple.
How about you prove to me that organized bits of matter can create a consciousness, since you seem to think so.
" Well unfortunately for you according to biology, amino acids were able to be formed experimentally when enough heat or pressure was applied to certain elements. As we evolve there is a good possibility that consciousness will come about"
WHAT? WHAT? Explain how evolution of a physical being can create self-awareness. How does any physical part of me allow me to recognize the fact that I exist. Wow, good job dumbass.
On June 02 2004 15:32 Liquid`Drone wrote: "if you give 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 monkeys 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 typewriters they will produce the works of shakespeare."
god, I'm so incredibly tired of people fucking that up.
it's not 5000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 or ANY NUMBER. even if the number has a fucking BAZILLION 0's in it. if you write a number, it DOES NOT WORK.
it's an INFINITE amount of monkeys with an INFINITE amount of typewriters.
in fact, if you give an infinite amount of monkeys an infinite amount of typewriters, you'll reproduce an infinite amount of shakespeare's works. you'll also have an infinite amount of papers going 784237214g32krjbasjfbdsafta78t4wntkdzxbhg7xh789t45ehstlrh5u and tjk4hert874nf87xng5xe8ng5oexnt7849hs
and "lol" and "why are people fucking up that quote so often"
in fact the monkeys would also reproduce this very post an infinite amount of times.
what the hell do monkeys and typewriters have to do with the bible? oh wait...
On June 02 2004 15:32 Liquid`Drone wrote: "if you give 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 monkeys 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 typewriters they will produce the works of shakespeare."
god, I'm so incredibly tired of people fucking that up.
it's not 5000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 or ANY NUMBER. even if the number has a fucking BAZILLION 0's in it. if you write a number, it DOES NOT WORK.
it's an INFINITE amount of monkeys with an INFINITE amount of typewriters.
in fact, if you give an infinite amount of monkeys an infinite amount of typewriters, you'll reproduce an infinite amount of shakespeare's works. you'll also have an infinite amount of papers going 784237214g32krjbasjfbdsafta78t4wntkdzxbhg7xh789t45ehstlrh5u and tjk4hert874nf87xng5xe8ng5oexnt7849hs
and "lol" and "why are people fucking up that quote so often"
in fact the monkeys would also reproduce this very post an infinite amount of times.
what the hell do monkeys and typewriters have to do with the bible? oh wait...
On June 01 2004 09:29 Konni wrote: NTT wrote: "We're all randomly assembled bits of matter. Out of billions of stars and planet combination ours happened to spawn life. Big whoop. When we die we decompose and we'll be gone"
I couldn't have said it better
I could.
Organized bits of matter does not create a consciousness.
Millions of geniuses have believed in a god, whether defined by a known religion or not.
The point you make is that "Organized bits of matter does not create a consciousness." Prove it. Are you just trying to use your logic to make such an assumption without ANY FACTS to support you? Well unfortunately for you according to biology, amino acids were able to be formed experimentally when enough heat or pressure was applied to certain elements. As we evolve there is a good possibility that consciousness will come about. If we all thought the way you did, we would still be living in the stone age thinking only God can unravel the mysteries of life. From monkeys we came, not Adam and Eve, not God.
Please, do not mix religion with science, science has no room for religion. Just because we are conscious of ourselves doesnt mean it is impossible for evolution to create us that way. Yet your theories about a God are still unproven in the domain of science. Stick to morality and religion, thats where God was invented, and thats where God should remain. He has no business in the realm of science.
When Galileo was asked where God fit into his equations and explanations, he simply replied "I have no need for such a hypothesis."
EDIT: Scientifically there should be no reason why God exists either.
Why would I have to prove it? Your post doesn't even make any fucking sense. I was just making a post stating that as I said, things are not so simple.
How about you prove to me that organized bits of matter can create a consciousness, since you seem to think so.
" Well unfortunately for you according to biology, amino acids were able to be formed experimentally when enough heat or pressure was applied to certain elements. As we evolve there is a good possibility that consciousness will come about"
WHAT? WHAT? Explain how evolution of a physical being can create self-awareness. How does any physical part of me allow me to recognize the fact that I exist. Wow, good job dumbass.
So travis, if I understand correctly it is more likely that some kind of thing that's NOT matter creates our consiousness, something that cannot be seen or weighed, something that's impossible to prove the existence of, but nontheless floats somewhere around in our heads?
Well who knows what God is? Not contained by our dimension, laws of physics, or matter in any way, He could even be some sort of substance which we cannot comprehend being limited in this dimension.
RugBug, your argument is that because some scientists have been religious that religion helps science?
Did you not take into consideration that we were very well off scientifically until the catholic church took over up. Science was pretty much dead from then until the renaissance.
On June 02 2004 16:32 RuGbUg wrote: Well who knows what God is? Not contained by our dimension, laws of physics, or matter in any way, He could even be some sort of substance which we cannot comprehend being limited in this dimension.
I just want you to know that if there is such a being, he really doesnt care if you masturbate, if you have premarital sex or any idiotic stuff dude, if you truly belive in a higher being give it some credit!
it's plain stupid to look at chances of something happening when it has already happened! if you're to take 6 balls randomly from a basket with 49 balls you've got about 1/14 000 000 chances of getting one particular combination. almost impossible. but still there's always someone who wins the lottery!
On June 02 2004 16:39 Element)FrEaK wrote: RugBug, your argument is that because some scientists have been religious that religion helps science?
Did you not take into consideration that we were very well off scientifically until the catholic church took over up. Science was pretty much dead from then until the renaissance.
Nice try though.
Considering the picture you posted in IGSA, i guess i already know your opinion heheheh >
On June 02 2004 16:41 Krzych wrote: it's plain stupid to look at chances of something happening when it has already happened! if you're to take 6 balls randomly from a basket with 49 balls you've got about 1/14 000 000 chances of getting one particular combination. almost impossible. but still there's always someone who wins the lottery!
yes, exactly, and when people look at how the universe appears to be, it's like looking at a particular 1/14 000 000 result and saying "wow, how can this be possible?" well duh _someone_ is gonna roll 7's _somewhere_ given enough time, it's not a fucking mircale at all
On June 02 2004 17:04 Element)FrEaK wrote: Why is that? I'd be surprised if you even knew the basics of the wiccan religion.
It has alot to do with why I wear black.
you are right i do not know them.
And well for me, its a gradient from Smart (not raw IQ) to dumb gradient.
Considering an Atheist (self convinced atheist, not "i havent tought about it" atheist) the most advanced level of thinking and the most ortodox religious people as the most idiotic.
so lets say that in my personal sacle you are like this:
On June 02 2004 17:06 GoSexyPerli wrote: continue to debate this, dumb. follow what you feel in you're heart and brain, smart.
I think we can all agree that if this is all there is, just this earth, and no mysteries in the universe, then this is a sad fucking existence we are taking part in.
well theres a big diff between believing there's mysteries and believing some earthly mythical tradition tells you what the mysteries are. if u believe there's something beyond our reality and something more to our significance, our feelings, etc. then that's all well and good. but if u think the bible and jesus and god are obviously the truth about the universe then u really should think a little more carefully. those things came from earth, one planet, one time, not too far in the past.. it's ridiculous to think something powerful outside of our universe that has to do with our bodiless eternal essences comes from some thousand year old jew rhetoric story telling myth tradition, not to mention the dark ages and the catholic church and all that history..
look, even if there is more outside the universe that gives more meaning to our lives, so what? then what is outside of that? the point is, we're _always_ boxed in, be it a house, a continent, a planet, a solar system, a galaxy, a universe.. a.. supernatural deity kind of thing beyond universes.. or whatever. it's still mundane once you know it, and you can _always_ imagine a further unknown. maybe some people just need to, but personally i think you should make do with what is knowable to you and just try to imagine what is possible rather than get dogmatic about some tradition of explaining some unknowables when most likely it is just as unknowable to them as it is to you. i would put more trust in people who try to tell you about the nature of the human consciousness and living a human life than those who try to tell you to give it all up and get in line for something and that this life doesnt matter compared to the next -- that kind of thinking seems highly prone to exploitation to me.
Well, Buddhist religion makes alot of sense if you read up on it. I don't really follow the belief system but the meditative techniques.
Wicca is the main religion I follow and if you have time, I'd gladly explain our concepts of the universe. Most atheists that I talk to agree that they make alot of sense.
On June 02 2004 17:17 Element)FrEaK wrote: Well, Buddhist religion makes alot of sense if you read up on it. I don't really follow the belief system but the meditative techniques.
Wicca is the main religion I follow and if you have time, I'd gladly explain our concepts of the universe. Most atheists that I talk to agree that they make alot of sense.
Anyone who ha really tought about their religion and dared to see beyond that have my respect, the decition you take is good, and any opinion of a person capable of doing that is worth to listen.
I am totally nihilist in all esoteric stuff, so i take western religion as a more profound thinking, but i cannot consider it as true.
I remember a flash animation about GOD, with wise words for that suppoused "god", i liked it very much, because of the wisdom, but the deity was just ignored.
so if you want to share your knowledge, conclusions and beliefs im totally open to it
On June 02 2004 17:17 Element)FrEaK wrote: Well, Buddhist religion makes alot of sense if you read up on it. I don't really follow the belief system but the meditative techniques.
Wicca is the main religion I follow and if you have time, I'd gladly explain our concepts of the universe. Most atheists that I talk to agree that they make alot of sense.
that was kind of what i was getting at. a lot of religions (maybe all?) contain more than some arbitrary silly dogma and specific taboos etc. within all that, usually via symbolism and rhetoric, are truly decent arguments and teachings for living a good life and operating your mind. unfortunately most people focus more on the arbitrary and fantastical dogmas (i.e. "buddhists believe in reincarnation, christians hate abortion and fags, believe in one deity and the deity put his son which was almost him and died and rose from the dead and performed magic tricks and u should pray to them to go to heavnen") and less on the most valuable parts of religious traditions
On June 02 2004 17:18 baal wrote: nope, there are no other options, there is a god, or ther is NOT a god.
Yes, but you dont know whats true. Nobody does. Christians say all these gay mircales happen(bullshit). Athiests say science is #1 and according to science, supernatural cannot exist( also bullshit ).
Both theorys have holes the size of that girl who shot a football out of her Vag.
my theory is, WE ARE ALL WRONG!
and, to the people that think there is a old white guy with a setup of scarface esque security camera in the clouds watching over our expiditions through existence! .
Well you are also like here [---||-----------------------] in my scale hehehe
you are just not willing to give up your human need to belive in things beyond you.
On June 02 2004 17:17 Element)FrEaK wrote: Well, Buddhist religion makes alot of sense if you read up on it. I don't really follow the belief system but the meditative techniques.
Wicca is the main religion I follow and if you have time, I'd gladly explain our concepts of the universe. Most atheists that I talk to agree that they make alot of sense.
that was kind of what i was getting at. a lot of religions (maybe all?) contain more than some arbitrary silly dogma and specific taboos etc. within all that, usually via symbolism and rhetoric, are truly decent arguments and teachings for living a good life and operating your mind. unfortunately most people focus more on the arbitrary and fantastical dogmas (i.e. "buddhists believe in reincarnation, christians hate abortion and fags") and less on the most valuable parts of religious traditions
Stinkey D OMFG Fish... sometimes you are a prick, but sometimes you are really an smart dude
well theres an unknowable (my guess) amount of stuff beyond the universe. maybe nothing, maybe almost everything. not to mention the known universe itself, which is well pretty big dude. but no matter how much we know i dont think we can be sure how much more there is beyond our "available knowables". basically the universe could be all there is, or it could be virtually no time and no matter compared to the rest
maybe im wrong tho and theres a way to know for sure everything beyond everything and be certain theres nothing more. but i think ppl just have to learn to live with the potential that theres more we arent able to ever know because it's beyond the limits we exist within. we can always imagine an outside, another dimension, soemthing beyond the way our universe works, beyond even every compontent and rule we know, something more basic that we just havent found yet, etc.
On June 02 2004 17:28 Element)FrEaK wrote: seems more like a msn or PM thing to chat over. People aren't usually interested in the wiccan point of view
We're only the 4th most common religion in the world
On June 02 2004 17:17 Element)FrEaK wrote: Well, Buddhist religion makes alot of sense if you read up on it. I don't really follow the belief system but the meditative techniques.
Wicca is the main religion I follow and if you have time, I'd gladly explain our concepts of the universe. Most atheists that I talk to agree that they make alot of sense.
that was kind of what i was getting at. a lot of religions (maybe all?) contain more than some arbitrary silly dogma and specific taboos etc. within all that, usually via symbolism and rhetoric, are truly decent arguments and teachings for living a good life and operating your mind. unfortunately most people focus more on the arbitrary and fantastical dogmas (i.e. "buddhists believe in reincarnation, christians hate abortion and fags, believe in one deity and the deity put his son which was almost him and died and rose from the dead and performed magic tricks and u should pray to them to go to heavnen") and less on the most valuable parts of religious traditions
I don't know where people like you derive their knowledge on these subjects, it really blows my mind. is there some pamphlet you're all getting in the mail?
doesn't mean I think I know how we (humans, earth, the universe, everything) were "created" or anything similar. in fact my point of view is that I realize there's absolutely no way we can know for certain thus I'm happy with being ignorant.
so I SHOULD be an agnostic. however at the same time, the option of there being some motherfucker who created us and then gave us a bunch of guidelines and rules for how we were supposed to live so we could either spend the afterlife with him in heaven or burn in agony FOREVER is so disgusting I'd rather not be alive if that was in fact true.
so I refuse to acknowledge the possibility of me being created by some kind of all powerful being like that.
I could live with earth being an experiment by some extremely high tech aliens who just wanted to test out how long it would take for intelligent life to evolve or something like that. but a god like the christian god just to me is not an option, and I'd rather be dead (or, never be created. he didn't even fucking ask me if I wanted to exist before creating me, wtf is that? ) than have that be the truth. at least if he's anything like what the bible portrays him to be.
as far as I know buddhism (a religion I respect many elements of) doesn't have a theory regarding the creation of earth/the universe nor any "god", thus nothing I say applies to that.
On June 02 2004 07:03 Arbiter[frolix] wrote: The existence of consciousness provides no evidence whatsoever for anything very much. We do not understand consciousness; we do not even have the conceptual framework to think or discourse clearly on the subject. Attempting to use it as evidence for the existence (or non-existence for that matter) of God or anything else is a complete and utter dead end.
What the hell are you talking about. I didn't use the existence of consciousness as evidence for anything, only to show that things aren't so fucking simple.
I really think you should calm down. I was not talking specifically to you, I was making a general comment about the relevance of consciousness to debates about God and religion. If you take it as an attack on you then that is not my problem.
I believe what I know for a fact. Anything besides that (some existence outside the 'box') could be anything. God as christians describe him would then only be one of the endless amount of possibilities that lie beyond our mind's grasp. For all I know there COULD be a God, I only feel it's as unlikely as baal's pink elephants so there's no reason to believe in it.
EPT
wrote:
![[image loading]](http://www.suenoanime.com/baal/manmadegod.jpg)
(NIV) The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever
... creation ? creation of what ? ... do you want to enter the Matrix ? ... take the red pill and enjoy the ride 
what of the "good ones" you were saving?![[image loading]](http://www.wackyweaselworld.com/gamespot/flameINC/owned74.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.wackyweaselworld.com/gamespot/flameINC/owned32.jpg)
