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On May 28 2010 13:39 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 13:15 DanceDance wrote:
You have identified the negative points of chat channels. But what about the positive points?
i.e Good things about channels:
1) A sense of community.
2) Great for clan communication
3) Great for communication with friends
4) A good way for keeping in touch
5) A way for meeting new people
6) A good medium for organizing tournaments
7) More power to the community (i.e private channels)
8) Great for both one on one discussions and large discussions
9) Channels give life to B.Net
The list goes on... Maybe this is the case for those that joined in the early years of SCBW, but the OP describes my experience with chat channels perfectly. (I having joined in the last couple years.) The only life I see on the ICCUP channels is spammers posting meaningless garbage. No sense of community from this, just clutter to ignore. I just wish that Blizzard would actually describe what they had in mind. Theoretically, it could calm a lot of people down if they knew what was 'better than chat channels.' But who am I kidding? This is TL and everybody is on the verge of a heart attack with every patch... if Blizzard actually described what they were doing, we'd just critique it to pieces based on little information and collectively blow a fuse :S
<3
On May 28 2010 13:42 Superiorwolf wrote:Show nested quote +Then again, that's kind of the point, isn't it? If everyone knew about Clan HugeFuckingBalls then that would just be the next place to be targeted by the spam bots and social retards. Well, a good private chatroom always has good moderation that keeps that kind of stuff out. A lot of people dislike Facebook integration because, now that adding friends via screenname is disabled, in order to add a friend you must add them on Facebook, thereby giving out private information (email, name, etc.). Of course, you can always right click their name to add them without that, but Blizzard has obfuscated the once easy process of /f a. Plus, I don't even know if you can right-click add unless you see them in a game lobby or a match history (can you even add them from private chat or ladder?)
Facebook integration is a feature. And there's nothing wrong with the feature. I have a few IRL (Which means Facebook) friends who I plan to play a lot of SC2 with. This will only make it that much easier to find them.
It seems to me that people dislike Facebook integration for reasons entirely outside of Facebook intergration, which is fucking silly.
On May 28 2010 13:43 Karok wrote:Show nested quote +
Except that private channels are private. How do I know about them? How do I gain access? What if I don't know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy? Am I to be doomed to public chat channels? That isn't a solution.
Been on IRC before? I assume you haven't. Here's how IRC works: You have a public channel, lets call it #hi Now #hi has a couple of mods. Some tard drops into #hi and starts acting like.. well like a tard. mods of #hi ban his ass from that channel. Normal people in #hi can commence discussion on why facebook really is terribad.
Of course I've been on IRC. But assume that I've just bought SC2 and I'm logging on for the first time. How do I know to go to #hi? How do I know that a place like #hi even exists, if all I see is the trash that is present in public channels?
On May 28 2010 13:43 Kinslayer wrote:
The argument that most people keep throwing out here just doesn't make sense. Saying that the examples the OP gave are all public non moderated channels, hence why they suck, means squat. What you are saying is that the system IS broken but people fix it by creating private channels and spending effort to fix the problem.
Well, what happens to all the players not in clans? All the players that are not savvy enough to fix the issue? They are just SOL and have nothing but spam to deal with? Why in the world would Blizzard want that?!
Why put something in the game that has been proven as broken and needs player intervention to work?
Stop thinking about the specific cases and think about the experience for every single player that will buy this game. That is how Blizzard has to think.
<3
On May 28 2010 13:44 zerglingsfolife wrote:
This is one of the most biased opening posts and I'm kind of surprised it's still up. As nearly everyone has pointed out already, private chat channels are what people miss. You took some pictures of spam in public chat channels and said that all channels are bad and full of spam.
And as I've replied to nearly everyone who has pointed out thusly, private channels don't clean up the mess that is public channels. And as it turns out, there are a lot of people who (mis?)use public channels. Rather than abandoning these people, Blizzard is coming up with a better system, as stated in several interviews.
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@paramore: Is your house moderated? :D:D
Of course I've been on IRC. But assume that I've just bought SC2 and I'm logging on for the first time. How do I know to go to #hi? How do I know that a place like #hi even exists, if all I see is the trash that is present in public channels?
/list (or whatever the IRC command was to list all public channels)
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On May 28 2010 13:48 RageOverdose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 13:44 zerglingsfolife wrote:
This is one of the most biased opening posts and I'm kind of surprised it's still up. As nearly everyone has pointed out already, private chat channels are what people miss. You took some pictures of spam in public chat channels and said that all channels are bad and full of spam. Strawman fallacy. No, he stated that it was common for the general user and that a lot of users don't get to experience the wonder of chat channels when they really shine. Most of what they get is spam, and it serves to make the functionality useless as a result. All the chat channels may serve to them is a way to read what their friends whisper to them, and that functionality still exists in 2.0. Hell, you sometimes even get spammed in games you join, at least in the main BW gateways as well as in Diablo 2 (I think...).
SC2 will allow only 1 account per game purchase. I think it's safe to say that spam will not be an issue.
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Oh the 4chan = the whole Internet analogy is really quite perfect for this situation right here. You could take a picture of people starving in Africa and go up to the President, "Look! This is conclusive evidence that everyone in the world is starving!" While it is true there is a lot of starving in Africa, and a lot of spamming in Bnet public channels, the argument is entirely fallacious.
I really loved chat channels. The competitive player argument is untrue as well. Before I was competitive, I was casual and played UMS and made maps, sometimes playing BGH or the such. Just because I was casual didn't mean I made no friends online. We hung out in channels, and sometimes I joined mapmaking clans. The experience would have been way different had we had a "party chat", aka an instant messenger channel.
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Canada11349 Posts
On May 28 2010 13:44 zerglingsfolife wrote:
This is one of the most biased opening posts and I'm kind of surprised it's still up. As nearly everyone has pointed out already, private chat channels are what people miss. You took some pictures of spam in public chat channels and said that all channels are bad and full of spam.
But unless you've been in this sort of format before, how the heck do you know where the private channels are? Your last sentence describes that there actually is a problem. A problem that needs to be fixed because in its current state public chat channels are broken. Useless. Garbage.
So something else is needed. Maybe private chats work, maybe those need to be re implemented or its equivalent. But it needs to be more obvious to use. Whatever your experiences are in the past, the current state of public channels are no longer recognizable. Their function has become nonfunctional and therefore need not be re-implemented.
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Facebook integration is a feature. And there's nothing wrong with the feature. I have a few IRL (Which means Facebook) friends who I plan to play a lot of SC2 with. This will only make it that much easier to find them.
It seems to me that people dislike Facebook integration for reasons entirely outside of Facebook intergration, which is fucking silly.
I never said I disliked the Facebook integration. It is definitely useful for many, including myself (I've met at least 50 people that I've known online in real life). However, the fact is, Facebook integration cannot replace the simple efficiency of the old /f a and /f l. If Facebook supplement the basic, fundamental features of friend adding, then that's great. But if they're trying to replace friend adding in order to use Facebook only, that is unacceptable.
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And yes as superiorwolf said, chat channels are not only awesome for the 500apm diamond players, but just as awesome for the 20apm bronze players.
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guys, the baby has to go
the water is dirty
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comradedover LOLUMAD?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 28 2010 13:49 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 13:48 RageOverdose wrote:On May 28 2010 13:44 zerglingsfolife wrote:
This is one of the most biased opening posts and I'm kind of surprised it's still up. As nearly everyone has pointed out already, private chat channels are what people miss. You took some pictures of spam in public chat channels and said that all channels are bad and full of spam. Strawman fallacy. No, he stated that it was common for the general user and that a lot of users don't get to experience the wonder of chat channels when they really shine. Most of what they get is spam, and it serves to make the functionality useless as a result. All the chat channels may serve to them is a way to read what their friends whisper to them, and that functionality still exists in 2.0. Hell, you sometimes even get spammed in games you join, at least in the main BW gateways as well as in Diablo 2 (I think...). SC2 will allow only 1 account per game purchase. I think it's safe to say that spam will not be an issue.
I never said spam would be in SC2 and people may find a workaround.
I said that the chat channels in 1.0 are probably useless to a lot of the people that play and don't utilize the channels for any of the private reasons (clans, strategy discussions), and that there are perfectly fine alternatives to them for those that do that OTHER games have been using for a long time. Hell, a huge part of the competitive scene for Xbox Live uses third party software (web sites, mostly) or the party chat in Live, and it seems to work for them, although the scene is still in young. There's also the FPS competitive scene on PC, although they have servers they can use too, but even with that, people tend to stick to Ventrilo because of how convenient it is.
Plus, we don't know what sort of functionality Blizzard will add.
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On May 28 2010 13:52 Falling wrote:
how the heck do you know where the private channels are?
Forums
IRC
People spamming their channel in the public channels
You play someone on ladder and they invite you
You see someone with a cheerful during Proleague that says "Come to op SomeKoreanBS on USWest!!!"
OR, you make your own, for your own group of friends.
Imagine WoW without guild chat. Boring.
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I think we could all agree that B.net channels without spam would be great.
Why can't blizzard stop spammers? They can, they just don't want/care to.
The proof of the above statement is shown in post #1 in this thread(the pictures).
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On May 28 2010 13:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Everyone here is making completely valid points. The fact that you searched and found a few channels that have spam on them and said "Look! There's spam everywhere! We should have NO channels because they have no function other than to provide useless spam!" is ridiculous.
That is NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying the old system is broken. Blizzard has said the same in interviews. Great. I'm saying that we need something new. Blizzard has said the same in interviews. Great.
On May 28 2010 13:46 Accer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 13:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Channels were incredibly worthwhile. Friends and clans and teams meet up in channels. If ignoring (or destroying) spambots is really too hard for the SC2 creators to do, then I think that's kinda sad. Show nested quote +Is this implying that you can do it? Send your resume to Blizzard. I'm sure they'll hire you in a heartbeat. I just want to add that this line of reasoning is horrible. You do not have to be able to "do something" in order to critique it, just because I can't build a boat doesn't mean I can't complain when my brand new boat has a hole in it.
Of course, but you wouldn't turn to your friend and say "You can't fix that hole in your boat? That's kinda sad". If you can't help, there's no reason to be a dick about it.
On May 28 2010 13:46 Subversive wrote:
Yeah it is different. I regularly talk for hours with my friends (who I don't know in real life because they live in various cities/areas around australia and this country is huge) in our clan channel. That's what you're not factoring in. Private channels vs the public ones.
I am factoring that in. The screenshots portray the experience for the average battle.net user. The average battle.net user does not have access to the knowledge of where all the best private channels are.
Also, people asking each other for games in the public channel isn't bad either.
On May 28 2010 13:46 Subversive wrote:
Lastly the US channel you quoted looked ok to me. I could randomly log on and find absolute crap in a public channel and screen-shot it. Or I could screen-shot people having a normal conversation which happens much of the time as well.
What was okay, exactly? There was no conversation of worth taking place.
On May 28 2010 13:46 Subversive wrote:
Lastly, you say the chat system simply isn't working. If I haven't convinced you otherwise, I'd still point to it being better than nothing.
But we aren't given the choice between the old way or nothing. Blizzard is working on something new, and I have faith that it will be better than the shitty channels we're stuck with now.
On May 28 2010 13:46 Subversive wrote:
1. Didnt want people he played starcraft II with to have access to his personal information located on his fb page.
Do these people have access to his personal information? I've played with several people and have a few added to my friends list, and I can't find any way to get to their Facebook from Battle.net.
On May 28 2010 13:46 Subversive wrote:
2. He didn't necessarily wish to advertise to his actual friends on fb that he plays sc2.
Does Facebook integration do this? I've used the feature since it was releaed and there has been zero advertisement on my Facebook that I play StarCraft 2. It sounds like your friend doesn't exactly know what he's talking about.
On May 28 2010 13:46 Subversive wrote:
Personally I don't much care about 2 but despite being an open guy 1 is fairly irritating.
Personally, neither one are irritating because neither one is actually happening or will likely ever happen.
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Still waiting for your email address OP. TL wants to be friends with you!
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I was in DRU1. I don't recognize your name.
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On May 28 2010 13:35 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 13:24 Motiva wrote:
I disagree completely and I would trade in every single arbitrary feature from The entire Ladder to friends lists for Chat Channels without hesitation. Is this nostalgia talking, or some genuine love for chat channels for reasons you haven't explained yet?
I would take chat channels over other functionality, because with a good chat channel system, a friends list isn't a big deal. If we're all in the same chatroom(s) (HoN did this right imo) and the other things are all nice, but for me the biggest joy outside of -actually playing- is not achievements, or the ladder, anything else I can think of. The biggest enjoyment is derived from the community. Chat channels act as an amazing catalyst for any niche community that wishes to, or finds reason to emerge. The OP seems to have a problem with public channels, and I don't think those are important in the least, but to essentially force partying and limit chat invite-only chat instances is to seriously hinder the ability for niche community to form. Plenty come to mind...
Another issue with this system is that there was no reason to change it. Battle.net was home to countless communities full of people who never happened to need to contact eachother outside of the game. Now, with the removal of chat rooms, not only is blizzard slowing the formation of niche communities, they're also breaking countless ties people have made through these niche communities. I know that there are countless people I've spent years playing d1/sc/d2/wc3 and never needed to contact them outside of game. As such, I will likely never talk to those people again...
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On May 28 2010 13:59 guN-viCe wrote:
I think we could all agree that B.net channels without spam would be great.
Why can't blizzard stop spammers? They can, they just don't want/care to.
The proof of the above statement is shown in post #1 in this thread(the pictures).
They actually have "The Void" which you get put into if you send multiple messages really fast. The problem lies in the fact you can rejoin or just get a bot that will just say something slow enough that it fills up the channel and barely avoids the kick.
Or they could have active channel moderators at all times, but I don't think they want to pay them for something so small.
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Except that private channels are private. How do I know about them? How do I gain access? What if I don't know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy? Am I to be doomed to public chat channels? That isn't a solution.
Been on IRC before? I assume you haven't.
Here's how IRC works:
You have a public channel, lets call it #hi
Now #hi has a couple of mods.
Some tard drops into #hi and starts acting like.. well like a tard.
mods of #hi ban his ass from that channel.
Normal people in #hi can commence discussion on why facebook really is terribad.
Of course I've been on IRC. But assume that I've just bought SC2 and I'm logging on for the first time. How do I know to go to #hi? How do I know that a place like #hi even exists, if all I see is the trash that is present in public channels?
Here's how you do it. You click that tab on the main screen called 'Channels'. A list of channels comes up. Then what you do is you pick one. Alot aren't private as you assert. So now you're in a channel. Now you can talk to people. Seriously, why are you obstinately making these points? Private channels are not:
impossible to enter.
impossible to find.
an elitist group where new players can't join.
As for saying 'they're working on something that will be better' - well why don't you make this thread when that something better is known? Because right now the thread is like this:
Heaps of people telling you they disagree.
You saying "No you're all wrong I have faith in Blizzard"
EDIT:
Is this nostalgia talking, or some genuine love for chat channels for reasons you haven't explained yet?
People have explained it countless times. You're derailing your own thread because people won't agree with you -_-
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 28 2010 13:43 Kinslayer wrote:
The argument that most people keep throwing out here just doesn't make sense. Saying that the examples the OP gave are all public non moderated channels, hence why they suck, means squat. What you are saying is that the system IS broken but people fix it by creating private channels and spending effort to fix the problem.
Well, what happens to all the players not in clans? All the players that are not savvy enough to fix the issue? They are just SOL and have nothing but spam to deal with? Why in the world would Blizzard want that?!
Why put something in the game that has been proven as broken and needs player intervention to work?
Stop thinking about the specific cases and think about the experience for every single player that will buy this game. That is how Blizzard has to think.
This is a good point that I think most people in this thread are overlooking. Private channels are great, but how do you find them? Noone who is disputing the first post by saying the channels give a sense of community is explaining how most people link up in private rooms. They are basically saying, "Private channels is what you should look at, public channels aren't a good show of the community." But how is there "community" if everyone is segregated into private channels.
That said I don't think it would be very hard for Blizzard to monitor the chat channels, but they might not feel that it is worth the time. I don't really have an opinion on this one way or the other, in BW I just played with my friends because the channels were full of garbage that I wasn't going to look through to possibly find somebody cool to play games with. If they have better channels, awesome, if not, not much difference to me.
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EPT
