I don't have a beta key, but from the VODs I've seen and from what I've heard, the Zerg seem less fun to play than the other two races. I don't know if these ideas would work, but I thought I'd put them out there.
1. Create an upgrade for zerglings that would allow them to climb cliffs, like reapers and colossi. It would require lair or hive tech. I think it would be amazing to watch a horde of zerglings swarm up a cliff and demolish an enemy base.
2. Have roaches do bonus damage to mechanical, not biological units. This would make them more of a niche unit and would make for greater variety in ZvZ. Against the other races, it seems like it would create a allow role for the baneling, since most biological units are also light.
3. Move hydras back down to hatchery, reintroduce the lurker aspect upgrade with hive.
4. Remove the dropship upgrade for overlords and make overseers more of a combat spellcaster, with a mind control spell. (Come on, if any unit should have mind control, shouldn't it be an overlord?) This would help limit some of the insane mobility that zerg would gain with cliff jumping zerglings. If overlords had mind control, infestors would have to be changed somewhat, but I'm not sure how exactly. There are plenty of infestor ideas bouncing around on this site, and some of them should work.
I think these ideas would give zerg some more depth. Hopefully, they are balanceable. Any thoughts?
Zerg is pretty boring unit wise ill admit, But im not sure there is much u can do about it. i think we are all just missing killing 999999999999999 marines with lurker hold and epic dark swarm low unit count ZvT's
any changes u mentioned would kill the balance, but it would help them be more interesting for sure
You can't seriously expect to balance cliff-climbing zerglings. Reapers and colossi are okay because they are hardly massable or are very expensive. You get 80 lings in an army and if they could bypass any choke to get into the main, there is nothing you can do to stop it.
Hydras are now extremely powerful, to move them to Hatchery tech, you'd need to nerf them heavily. Lurkers are probably not going to be introduced, as they aren't mentioned in lore.
1. Would probably have to be hive tech. That kind of ability with speedlings on lair tech would be far to Over powered. cool idea though.
2. I say leave roach alone and change the baneling a bit.
3. This cant be done with the current tech trees of the 3 races. Would make banshees void rays and vikings next to useless against Z.
4. I agree to give the overseer a new move, but not mind control.
Overall good post/ideas, however, there are already tons of threads about this and yours is likely to be closed. Just post your ideas in someone elses threads. Grats on your first post though.
I am all for tweaking the zerg to add more depth to their gameplay, but I am not sure these are the way to do it.
1. How is lategame cliff hopping for the cheapest unit in the game strategic? It would simply be a-move your zerglings into his base once he moves out. It might be cool to watch, but it doesn't really add depth.
2. So you want the roach to be exactly like the maurader? because that would be almost the exact same role.
3. Lurkers are an amazing unit, but I am really hoping for something new. Also, tier 1 hydras(SC2 hydras) could be quite OP, since you could have a huge roach hydra army without ever even getting lair!
4. I like the idea of making overseers have a greater role in a battle, but giving them the same ability as the infestor probably isn't the answer
sorry to be harsh, didn't mean to shoot down everything you offered up. Just giving my thoughts.
1) No thanks... Cliffwalking speedlings would be absolutely impossible to stop.
2) Roaches would be completely useless then. Can't be used in ZvZ, would be quite overpowered in ZvP, and in ZvT it would also be so weak since the bulk of the terran army is usually m&m&m.
3) Too many 'bring back lurker' suggestions..... Also, lair tech doesn't take long to get to, so hydras are in a pretty decent spot now. Zerg shouldn't be able to get such a huge variety of units out so quickly.
4) Would take away some of the few harassment opportunites zerg has (baneling drops). Overseers are so mobile that giving them mind control would be pretty cheap. Just think about an overseer heading over to an expansion and stealing a probe or scv.
1) No thanks... Cliffwalking speedlings would be absolutely impossible to stop.
Haha that would be pretty awesome though , except remember dimaga's baneling build. Cliffwalking zerglings would make it unstoppable :D.
I think they should have some kind of unit which hops like a mutated frog, and yes the zergling does kind of hop, but I was picturing bigger, hoppier hops.
zerg rly doesnt need to have anything changed tbh. all they need is lurkers put back or some lurker type unit. banelings should also get maybe a damage upgrade at hive or something because there usefulness in late game and even mid game is just not there at all. of course you can use them as semi reaver drops and drop them at a mineral line and just destroy a eco near instantly which is always good.
I don't know if it feels like zerg has a hole to be filled with a unit, or we need to be more creative filling the hole with things that already are in the game.
-Hemlock, once filled a hole. No body in it...swear.
I feel like the zerg needs something between hydralisk and ultras as far as ground units are concerned. I just feel like something should fill the role of a lurker even if it isn't a lurker.
On April 20 2010 10:55 HeyitsClay wrote: Zerg is pretty boring unit wise ill admit, But im not sure there is much u can do about it. i think we are all just missing killing 999999999999999 marines with lurker hold and epic dark swarm low unit count ZvT's
any changes u mentioned would kill the balance, but it would help them be more interesting for sure
Zerg is boring because Hydra/Roach is the only viable midgame army composition. Because of the increased DPS in SC2, melee units are much less viable because ranged units reach a critical mass faster. Plus, Zergling DPS is horrendous, even with the crack upgrade, and they have no units to complement them in an army (i.e. a tank like an ultralisk). Lurkers wouldn't work well in SC2 TBH because the majority of units in Terran and Protoss mid/lategame army compositions are ranged and have a lot of hit points. It would be like fighting mech or mass dragoons with lurkers, except the DPS and auto-targeting would quickly kill off lings as well.
To make the Zerg army less "boring," Blizzard has to let Zerg have other options, preferably with melee units (right now, Zerg has a grand total of two melee units not including the Baneling, and one if them requires hive tech). Making the roach melee and increasing its movement speed would be really nice, because then they could tank for the Zerglings and allow for a more eye-pleasing Roach/ling/baneling. But first, they have to make Zergling viable. The attack speed DEFINITELY needs an increase, and maybe have some upgradeable +armor or soemthing.
The bottom line is, I think Blizzard lost focus of what ranged units "should" be as they're bringing in all of these ranged tanks into the picture. And this becomes a huge problem as we want to see army diversity, but melee units are almost obsolete.
I was thinking about the queen. Zerg do have many units with low hp average, the heal ability of the queen may only affect zerg structures at the moment imho; as low hp units considerably chase down micro. Why not add a heal-over-time with/or a heal-zone spell to this same queen, that could decrease a little the actual heal amount and make it more units to heal. Plus that would allow to use queens more offensively, which is rare to see a zerg player going for 2-3 queens&few roachs push/harass, i think i saw it once or twice from the top replays. If she could heal, she could heal much more like a nova (WC3 Undead Lich Hero skill) where units will have to regroup to get more chances to be healed for instance. Instead of a lightning heal (WC3:FT Witch Doctor skill) that would be probably too lame and/or too op, but still its an idea.
Great ideas astuce, especially the overseer mind control spell! Maybe the overseer could be upgraded to act as the tier 3 spellcaster for zerg.
What I would like is the Queen as an offensive tier 2 or 3 unit for Zerg, that would give them one more unit, since now Queen is only a mobile macro mechanic. Perhaps the queen could be upgraded in hive to do some splash healing or something, so she could accompany the army when it is moving out.
Of course the game would be terribly imbalanced after these additions, but I could not care less, since now Zerg are so badly broken anyway in terms of design. Having to re-balance the whole game is the least problem Blizzard have right now; priority one SHOULD be to have 3 playable races.
Edit: Noticed Khanz already posted the queen idea before me.
On April 20 2010 15:34 BladeRunner wrote: delete please
first post + "i dont have beta" + but i watched VODs .....
sry for this not so much constructive post but there are already way better threads about Zerg and when you dont actually PLAY the beta just stop make threads like this one.
On April 20 2010 10:51 astuce wrote: I don't have a beta key, but from the VODs I've seen and from what I've heard, the Zerg seem less fun to play than the other two races. I don't know if these ideas would work, but I thought I'd put them out there.
1. Create an upgrade for zerglings that would allow them to climb cliffs, like reapers and colossi. It would require lair or hive tech. I think it would be amazing to watch a horde of zerglings swarm up a cliff and demolish an enemy base. this would be pretty ridiculous... fun to see but no way would it be fair... thats like zealots having wall hop
2. Have roaches do bonus damage to mechanical, not biological units. This would make them more of a niche unit and would make for greater variety in ZvZ. Against the other races, it seems like it would create a allow role for the baneling, since most biological units are also light. maybe... but honestly there is too much roach hate flying around...a change like this would affect a lot... mainly being you wouldnt need to mass marauder, so then marines do more dps.... bio is stronger. zvp = immortals are not as needed, you can be aggro on the other units, this isnt a good move either....
3. Move hydras back down to hatchery, reintroduce the lurker aspect upgrade with hive. yes yes we all want lurkers.... does everyone hafta suggest it? and hydras are fine at lair... if they move down, roach is next to useless and lair is lacking... ill welcome a sweet age of sauron mass expand bullshit zerg
4. Remove the dropship upgrade for overlords and make overseers more of a combat spellcaster, with a mind control spell. (Come on, if any unit should have mind control, shouldn't it be an overlord?) This would help limit some of the insane mobility that zerg would gain with cliff jumping zerglings. If overlords had mind control, infestors would have to be changed somewhat, but I'm not sure how exactly. There are plenty of infestor ideas bouncing around on this site, and some of them should work. i dislike a flying mind controler... that would be kinda ridiculous.... take for example a pvz ball before the move out. if it had like.. 3 immortals in it? you can move some seers in.. mc the immortals at range, and ruin their army without a conflict... flight is too strong for mc imo
I think these ideas would give zerg some more depth. Hopefully, they are balanceable. Any thoughts?
I only play this game casually so I cant claim to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination, so please take everything I say below with a tablespoon of salt.
1) I have to agree with others, (whilst I am a zerg player an I would love to over-run a base with zerglings this way ) this would be so Overpowered at every point in the game it would be impossible to implement.
2) In principle I think roaches are fine as they are (probably need to be tweaked a few more times, but the concept of the roach in itself is fine, the problem is there are few alternatives other than opening with roaches to counter various enemy pushes)
3)Without trying to sound rude, No & No. If Hydras move town the tech tree then they will have to have further nurfs, which will mean the entire Zerg army will be massively weakened (especially against air) at tech 2
4) In some ways I agree, give the Overlords a greater role in combat. However that being said. No other race has their supply units/buildings on the front lines. There will need to be something to balance the "Role" of the overlord/overseer such that the "losses" do not supply lock the zerg player.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A few people have posted about changes to the queen
In terms of the queen. Does she need a bigger role? She is really designed to mince about the base, and her abilities are awesome (imo): * Macro Boost * Heals buildings directly, and units indirectly (spawns creep tumors) * Improves Zerg visibility and scouting (creep tumors again) * Improves Zerg Mobility (you guessed it creep tumors) * 3 range ground attack * 7 range Air attack
All for 150 Minerals, I mean what else other than detection and maybe splash damage can we add? So just make sure that you keep on top of your creep tumors.
What would I change in the Zerg army? The Baneling. I'd allow them tunnel whilst burrowed, that way they would "replace the lurker". In many ways there is a compromise between the lurker an the baneling in this "hypothetical" role. Lurkers were static when burrowed, had a range attack whilst underground and were useless whilst unburrowed. Banelings are useful early/early-mid game whilst unburrowed but only have one attack. This means you "could" build a few banelings, burrow them tunnel over to the base wall, un-burrow explode, then burrow again and head for the mineral line for a great harass (but one time only because a cannon/turret/spore crawler will pop up to detect it in the future) The second great advantage of tunneling is that the banelings would be able to tunnel under the infuriating sentry forcefield walls.
This may also complement the Ultras, as everyone seems to complain that the zerglings keep getting in the Ultra's way. Not a problem if they are banelings and underground - Although Gas may be in short supply :dunno:
So how would I add this to the tech tree, I'd put it in at techlevel 2 (and keep baneling speed at level 1)
I'm not in the Beta, but watching alot of streams and reading up on the site. Seems to me that many people think Zerg is in need of some changes. Í also always read about people thinking the Ultralisk is useless at the moment. This wouldn't change the early game (Or maybe it would eventually tech wise) but what if the Ultralisk would add something to the battle, like an aura like feature or something more temporary giving other units a boost? Would maybe make the ultralisk more interesting to have in your army composition.
Sorry if I'm stealing someone elses idea here, did not read every post in every thread, just trying to add to the discussion.
Really cheap idea but ultralisk roar that buffs attack speed and/or toughness of all units around him? Maybe just melee units which would suffice to make late zerglings not bad?
On April 20 2010 19:42 Lollersauce wrote: Really cheap idea but ultralisk roar that buffs attack speed and/or toughness of all units around him? Maybe just melee units which would suffice to make late zerglings not bad?
Exactly! something like that. Could create some interesting strategies I would think.
No Overloard-transportation upgrade anymore sounds fair as long as the nydus worm speeds up its spawn time when done on creep. So you have to fly in with an overloard (like drop) then spawn creep and in 10 seconds or less the worm should pop.
Cliff jumping zerglings are maybe balanced as long as they slide from high to low ground and not jump to high ground.
On April 20 2010 10:55 NoNoNoNoNyoron wrote: You can't seriously expect to balance cliff-climbing zerglings. Reapers and colossi are okay because they are hardly massable or are very expensive. You get 80 lings in an army and if they could bypass any choke to get into the main, there is nothing you can do to stop it.
Hydras are now extremely powerful, to move them to Hatchery tech, you'd need to nerf them heavily. Lurkers are probably not going to be introduced, as they aren't mentioned in lore.
If hydras are extremely powerful, what about marauder?
Personally I would prefer if Blizzard replaced the corruptor with Scourge for anti air. I know it isn't going to happen but corruptors seem pretty ineffective, unless I just am horrible using them...
I heard scourge, lurkers, hydra T1... You don't want to use new features in SC2 ?? They've been developping the game for a long time, they can create a new unit or new spels for casters...
EPT
, except remember dimaga's baneling build. Cliffwalking zerglings would make it unstoppable :D.
) this would be so Overpowered at every point in the game it would be impossible to implement.
