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This topic bothers me since I follow professional Starcraft: The fact that there's a team out there with all the Starcraft Legends who are used by the army to advertise serving the military.
I know Korea is a country with one of the biggest political threats in the world (beeing german it reminds me of our history) so it's explainable why the military has such a huge importance for the korean people.
But it saddens me that one of my favorite sports is used to affect young people in that matter. Plus, a huge part of the TeamLiquid Community also cheers for ACE.
Yes, I know it's a war-simulation, but that makes it even worse. For me it's a boarderline that gets crossed: It's ok as long as it's a game (I go play gotcha in a few days, no problem with that)
And a last point: I kind of dislike the players for letting that happen. Not too much because I know it's their duty and they have to serve the military so it's explainable they don't revolt. But still - how great would it have been if Boxer said sth like "I know I have to do my duty but I don't want to play broodwar for merchandising the military"
What does TL think?
Poll: What do you think of ACE?I completely disagree (129) 47% I see your point but I think you overreact (86) 32% I don't really care, it's just a game (30) 11% ACE is ok for me (17) 6% This team is inappropriate (10) 4% 272 total votes Your vote: What do you think of ACE? (Vote): This team is inappropriate
(Vote): I see your point but I think you overreact
(Vote): I don't really care, it's just a game
(Vote): ACE is ok for me
(Vote): I completely disagree
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i like how your poll has no options to agree lol
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i think serving in the military is mandatory over there so... i guess i dont see where the advertising comes in.
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Well the players probably play in ACE to try and stay in practice to keep some chance alive of a return after their draft is over, so it's a bit harsh to judge them for trying to prolong their careers
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
I think that like having the Army football team in America, this is just people who want to continue their careers in the military. It's a dual-benefit system - the air force gets a little advertisement and respect, the public gets to see the old stars in the booth for a few more years, the players continue playing. Military service is compulsory in Korea, so how does this affect the youth exactly? They would be going anyway - might as well have them think good things about it. Like you said having a military is very important to SK. In fact it's essential. So what they are doing is logical, and not really amoral...
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i remember reading an article by SDM that says the reason they made the ACE pro-gaming team is to keep Boxer on TV even while he's in the military, so its E-Sports trying to promote itself through the air force, not the otherway around.
also, the military is for people who wished to serve their countries, an act of patriotism, and the point ur making is as if to demonise the military organisation of S.Korea, i don't know much about how the military is like is like in S.Korea so i won't comment too much about it.
at least do some digging into the history of the ACE team before spouting out some un-informed arguments/points -.-
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Serving in the military is mandatory. You HAVE to serve in the military. So overall the recruitment drive isn't being increased by ACE.
What does make a difference is that you can apply for the airforce, navy and army. With ACE, more boys go to airforce I suppose.
No big deal.
ACE prolonges the career span of old players, which is important to keep the old starcraft fanbase.
Wasn't Boxer instrumental in the creation of ACE?
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Voted I see your point but I think you overreact.
I'm dubious that the Korean military uses it as a recruiting platform since there's mandatory military service there. At most, its effect would be to funnel more recruits into serving in the air force rather than the navy/army. That doesn't seem like a morally objectionable big deal.
But let's roll with your original argument and assume for a minute that it is being used as a propagandistic recruitment tool for the Korean military writ-large anyway. Further, let's compare it to America's Army's use as a recruitment tool in the USA. I think that the latter is WAY more sinister because the game misinforms the player about military service, military life and the justification of current American military conflicts to drive recruitment up. The Korean Air Force using Starcraft does none of these things.
So what part of the Air Force ACE team is morally objectionable, exactly?
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On April 19 2010 23:33 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
i like how your poll has no options to agree lol
I think if you agree with him you would select "This team is inappropriate"
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
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Starcraft is a popular sport in Korea. I bet the army has baseball and track-and-field teams too. Nothing wrong with that, is it?
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How is SOUTH Korea a military threat to the world? AFAIK only North Korea is and they have no ties at all to e-sports and Airforce ACE.
In addition the military in South Korea is mandatory, so they have no need to advertise for the militiary. All citizens are required to serve a two-year term even if they have rsided outside of the country for most of their lives(a friend of mine is in this situation).
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The same thing happens in America, too... i.e. America's Army and AA2
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As it has been said, military service is mandatory in south korea. Having an ace team changes the reputation of the military service from "hey we are going to conscript you and screw up your career" to "mandatory military allows you to serve your country without ruining your life"
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I tend to think that serving in your country's armed forces is a completely respectable and patriotic career path, so I wouldn't have much of a problem with it anyway -
But in Korea, all male citizens (except for those exempt, usually for physical problems) have to serve anyway (also known as a draft), so there's really not an issue at all. If anything, it's more of a credit to the armed forces, not demanding a complete break with civilian life for these guys (some of whom at least, like Boxer and probably others to follow, will probably return to their former "career" for at least a little while after military service).
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no different from the service academies in america having college football teams imo
both lose all the time anyway
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Well I'm of the opinion that the military is generally evil and wrong, since it is essentially taxing the general population in order to subsidise the producers of capital-intensive, high technology waste material, whilst also killing people as a side effect (Whether the military is a necessary evil, or an unnecessary one is an arguable point).
Since South Korea is a conscript army, then any effect of advertising that ACE has is negligible, (unlike America's Army, which aims at attracting kids into a volunteer army). I'd rather have South Korea's military (or anybody's military for that matter) trained to mash buttons to kill mutalisks, instead of pressing buttons that drop bombs on cities.
Then again, I hate mutalisks. I don't hate North Koreans.
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I'm surprised the leading response is "I see your point but I think you overreact," because I don't really see the point at all. What's the point, that we shouldn't try to stir up too much support for our military because we don't want to have blind patriotism when they start burning jews? Or is it that the military can be harmful to your well-being so advertising it in a kid's game is like advertising cigarettes on spongebob? Or is it that all militaries are inherently evil, even when you're living next to a hostile country with one of the largest standing armies in the world?
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Only a German could care about this lol
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Because serving the military there in mandatory I don't see a problem with it, but it would irk me a little otherwise.
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On April 20 2010 00:23 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
Only a German could care about this lol
Exactly my thoughts. Nobody would make this topic other than a German 
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All males in South Korea are obliged to do a two-year service in the military. There's no advertising to be had since you already have to go.
An ACE starcraft team doesn't somehow indoctrinate young men. You're completely off-base.
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I'm having trouble of figuring out what border there is to be crossed.
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I'm agree with the sentiment that this isn't a big deal since their is a mandatory military service in South Korea. It isn't like they are enticing young men into the military that wouldn't have normally joined through advertising (since they have to join anyway). The starcraft scene is getting more out of it by prolonging careers of older players while they serve in the military.
Also, the fact that you made no differentiation between North and South Korea irks me a bit. North Korea is the country that is viewed as a "threat" by most of the world.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
iirc korean military has a soccer squad as well (I remember someone saying this when Ace was first formed,)
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United States42649 Posts
There's nothing wrong with promoting the military as long as the military remains a respectable national institution. And as far as I know the South Korean military is.
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On April 19 2010 23:57 RoosterSamurai wrote:
The same thing happens in America, too... i.e. America's Army and AA2
Yeah, that's even far worse. AA is like: "Here young boy, try killing some people. It's tons of fun. Now go do it real life!"
I don't have a problem with ACE though.
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United States22883 Posts
Sports have historically served as training grounds for fighter and leaders - to turn boys into men - during times of peace.
Just throwing that out there...
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I see it as team where retired SC pros can play while serving their time within the Korean military. native-born Koreans get drafted into service and have to serve anyways. the Korean Air Force having a Brood War team isn't that big of a deal to me.
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
Would never of thought it bothered people.
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I would be opposed to such a team in my own country where military service is voluntary.
I can imagine a reversal of these ads occuring
http://www.gamepolitics.com/2010/02/25/bad-company-2-amp-french-army-ads-square
They would be attempting to associate videogames with actual violence which I think would be detrimental to the esports scene (granted there is none in australia).
Starcraft should be about competition and sportsmanship not fantasizing about real combat.
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i have no idea what this thread is about.
which army? over where? why is advertising the military bad? why does it matter?
i feel like a noob.
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On April 19 2010 23:39 Shizuru~ wrote:
i remember reading an article by SDM that says the reason they made the ACE pro-gaming team is to keep Boxer on TV even while he's in the military, so its E-Sports trying to promote itself through the air force, not the otherway around.
also, the military is for people who wished to serve their countries, an act of patriotism, and the point ur making is as if to demonise the military organisation of S.Korea, i don't know much about how the military is like is like in S.Korea so i won't comment too much about it.
at least do some digging into the history of the ACE team before spouting out some un-informed arguments/points -.-
Oh and the military does not gain any benefit out of the relationship? That's the thing that bothers me.
On April 19 2010 23:41 dukethegold wrote:
[...]
Wasn't Boxer instrumental in the creation of ACE?
That's what I'm saying. Boxer could have said no. If so ACE wouldn't even exist. In my opinion that'd be great.
On April 20 2010 00:16 Musoeun wrote:
I tend to think that serving in your country's armed forces is a completely respectable and patriotic career path, so I wouldn't have much of a problem with it anyway -
[...]
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the whole discussion comes down to this. I just wanted to know how TL thinks. Looks like I'm pretty alone here
On April 20 2010 00:23 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
Only a German could care about this lol
I was hoping some left-wingers would back me up here 
On April 20 2010 00:38 CagedMind wrote:
I'm having trouble of figuring out what border there is to be crossed.
The border between playing a game, having fun, doing nothing that requires much thinking about ethics and real life. Some kids watching Starcraft won't notice the difference.
On April 20 2010 00:55 Jibba wrote:
Sports have historically served as training grounds for fighter and leaders - to turn boys into men - during times of peace.
Just throwing that out there...
I know that but there is this thing called evolution 
On April 19 2010 23:33 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
i like how your poll has no options to agree lol
Sorry my poll has the wrong title, I just noticed
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You still haven't responded to what I think is the biggest point which is the fact that military service is mandatory in SK anyway... To be honest, South Koreans for the most part don't really make a big deal out of military service like people in the US. It's not about being a patriot or hero... It's just a normal thing that everyone does and gets over with... Sort've like going to school. I think ACE has a negligable influence at best on any attitude toward the military over there.
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Service in the army is mandatory. You're clearly not willing to accept other people's culture.
On April 20 2010 01:20 Prof. Protoss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 23:41 dukethegold wrote:
[...]
Wasn't Boxer instrumental in the creation of ACE? That's what I'm saying. Boxer could have said no. If so ACE wouldn't even exist. In my opinion that'd be great.
So you're saying that letting people play a game that they want to keep playing is bad? I mean these players chose to be on ACE after deciding to go to the army.
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On April 20 2010 01:35 HeartOfTofu wrote:
You still haven't responded to what I think is the biggest point which is the fact that military service is mandatory in SK anyway... To be honest, South Koreans for the most part don't really make a big deal out of military service like people in the US. It's not about being a patriot or hero... It's just a normal thing that everyone does and gets over with... Sort've like going to school. I think ACE has a negligable influence at best on any attitude toward the military over there.
Hm, that's like saying an advertisment for Coca Cola doesn't matter because people drink Coca Cola anyways.
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I know that but there is this thing called evolution
Evolution is completely unrelated to sports being used as training grounds.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the whole discussion comes down to this.
No, it comes down to the fact that service is already mandatory.
Oh and the military does not gain any benefit out of the relationship? That's the thing that bothers me.
You say that as if the military should never benefit from anything, ever. From everything you've posted, it seems apparent that you have a disdain for the military in general, which is a pretty misguided opinion. You just keep restating your original points without actually elaborating. Whenever you make a statement that goes against the "norm," a detailed why is necessary.
For instance, you claim it has an "effect on young people," but you don't even say what that effect is supposed to be, let alone offer anything to support that claim. All you do is paint it negatively.
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Every male has to serve, so how would anyone be "advertised" into serving? Other than a very few number of people who volunteer, but those people want a career out of it?
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On April 20 2010 01:44 Prof. Protoss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 01:35 HeartOfTofu wrote:
You still haven't responded to what I think is the biggest point which is the fact that military service is mandatory in SK anyway... To be honest, South Koreans for the most part don't really make a big deal out of military service like people in the US. It's not about being a patriot or hero... It's just a normal thing that everyone does and gets over with... Sort've like going to school. I think ACE has a negligable influence at best on any attitude toward the military over there. Hm, that's like saying an advertisment for Coca Cola doesn't matter because people drink Coca Cola anyways.
rofl that's NOT the same, people are not mandated to drink coca cola for 2 years
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On April 20 2010 01:46 theramstoss wrote:
Every male has to serve, so how would anyone be "advertised" into serving? Other than a very few number of people who volunteer, but those people want a career out of it?
I kinda think he doesn't understand the whole concept of "mandatory service."
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Shit I shot in my own foot.
Sorry, that was stupid, I didn't think before writing.
It still affects how young korean males think about the military though. Military acts are not a game. That's my point. Killing stuff with blood everywhere in starcraft is fun, in real life it's one of the ethically most problematic questions in life.
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On April 20 2010 00:43 thedeadhaji wrote:
iirc korean military has a soccer squad as well (I remember someone saying this when Ace was first formed,)
idk about soccer but I know the army has a volleyball team. They're relatively much better than Airforce ACE (possibly because military fitness levels are useful for physical athletics) but still not contenders.
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The general perception is that you go to the army, get through boot camp, and proceed to screw around smokin drinking and playing cards for the remainder of your mandatory time there. Now replace playing cards with playing Starcraft and see what kind of difference it actually makes. I think you're really reading too much into it. ACE isn't some propaganda machine. It's just a reflection of how Koreans see their military. Nobody really takes it seriously or for the matter, really cares...
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On April 20 2010 01:53 Prof. Protoss wrote:
Shit I shot in my own foot.
Sorry, that was stupid, I didn't think before writing.
It still affects how young korean males think about the military though. Military acts are not a game. That's my point. Killing stuff with blood everywhere in starcraft is fun, in real life it's one of the ethically most problematic questions in life.
You know, very few progamers actually apply for ace. This just shows that most of them knows that military is not a game. Only the most passionate ones who wishes to continue playing sc actually apply for ace.
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The fact that there is mandatory service in SK totally ruins your point...
However even if they didn't I would have to disagree with you. We have advertisements aimed at young people to join all branches of the military in the US (and i find it hard to believe you have none in Germany), and representatives visit most public high schools. The military offers many opportunities for many different people and if you have misgivings then don't join, simple as that.
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On April 20 2010 01:54 gogogadgetflow wrote:
The fact that there is mandatory service in SK totally ruins your point...
However even if they didn't I would have to disagree with you. We have advertisements aimed at young people to join all branches of the military in the US (and i find it hard to believe you have none in Germany), and representatives visit most public high schools. The military offers many opportunities for many different people and if you have misgivings then don't join, simple as that.
I remember reading an article where one person entered the army to get glory like many people do in movies, only to find out that there is no real glory in the army. He makes friends only to have them blown up in a bomb attack the next day and most of them die unacknowledged.
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On April 20 2010 01:54 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 01:53 Prof. Protoss wrote:
Shit I shot in my own foot.
Sorry, that was stupid, I didn't think before writing.
It still affects how young korean males think about the military though. Military acts are not a game. That's my point. Killing stuff with blood everywhere in starcraft is fun, in real life it's one of the ethically most problematic questions in life. You know, very few progamers actually apply for ace. This just shows that most of them knows that military is not a game. Only the most passionate ones who wishes to continue playing sc actually apply for ace.
The paticularly passionate ones are the only players who have a future in esport anyway. Also some number are able to dodge conscription through means such as enrollment in university.
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I think its a bit over reacted. ACE was created for the reasons people have already stated, and like most other sports in our world, its a recreational thing.
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I scratch your back and you scratch mine.
Military duty is mandatory, so letting those pro gamers keep up with their work/passion is kind of a gift.
Sure, they are promoting the military but I don't see anything wrong with that. You learn a lot of useful skills when you join, and although they might be under a heavy threat, they are not at war. Therefore, I see no problem with them advertising, it is a good advertisement, and if I had a kid I sure would hope he joins the military. =)
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It's awesome that sc is so significant that the government uses as a tool to ensure public support of the military. A win in my eyes.
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As someone who has lived in Korea, and currently has two close friends doing their military service right now, trust me when I say you're making way way bigger deal out of this than any Korean ever has.
Adding on the Starcraft team was pretty natural, as the military already has teams for pretty much any other sport in order for players to be able continue playing their game while they serve. That's simple because serving for 2 years without playing would ruin their career. To coupe with the problem they created a bunch of teams for different sports. Starcraft is as much a sport as any in Korea so why'd it be strange to have a Starcraft team?
Also, on a less serious note; How is losing all the time considered good advertisement?
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On April 19 2010 23:29 Prof. Protoss wrote:
But still - how great would it have been if Boxer said sth like "I know I have to do my duty but I don't want to play broodwar for merchandising the military"
Not great at all, then the most popular player in all of esports would not be seen/heard from in 2 full years? How is that a good thing at all?
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On April 20 2010 03:26 RyanS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 23:29 Prof. Protoss wrote:
But still - how great would it have been if Boxer said sth like "I know I have to do my duty but I don't want to play broodwar for merchandising the military"
Not great at all, then the most popular player in all of esports would not be seen/heard from in 2 full years? How is that a good thing at all?
Well Muhammad Ali did something like that at the peak of his career (though he was resisting the draft for a specific and particularly unpopular war) and a lot of people would agree that that was a good thing to do.
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United States12235 Posts
I think this is a pretty sweet troll, so props to you. It's much easier to draw a correlation between the military and realistic FPS than the military and sci-fi RTS. Also Boxer started ACE as a way to support Starcraft during his mandatory service. The entire premise of the OP is false so we can only conclude that this is a troll.
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Doesn't Germany have a similar national service for all 18 year olds?
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United States3824 Posts
Yeah conscription dude
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It is mandatory for Koreans to join the army... well if they can. In Germany you can go to the military or work for civilian/community service for the time.
Anyway, since it is mandatory I don't understand how it affects the youth in joining the army... they have to anyway...
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I think you don't have a valid point. The military does not use the sc progamers to advertise to the public because the military service is mandatory and consequently needs no advertising. It is more like the opposite, the military enables the progamers to continue their gaming career within the ACE team so the players don't have to go on a hiatus.
Remember, you don't have to play for the ACE team if you don't want to.
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The reason they can play Starcraft is because they have a military. Freedom isnt free.
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On April 20 2010 04:17 cHicKeLoR wrote:
It is mandatory for Koreans to join the army... well if they can. In Germany you can go to the military or work for civilian/community service for the time.
Anyway, since it is mandatory I don't understand how it affects the youth in joining the army... they have to anyway...
I'm glad that it's possible for us germans to chose what you want to do.
In my eyes it would be great if it was the same in other countries.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with advertising the military. It's not like they're misrepresenting what the military is about.. it's not "come join the air force, we'll let you fly a battlecruiser and kill zerg" while hundreds of deluded young men sign up only to get sent to the front lines.
They're just saying that "look, we have interests besides killing people". Nothing wrong with that.
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the military is a big part of korean culture, it is mandatory and its not seen as a bad thing.. ACEwas made to make ESPORTS bigger not the other way around. so yeah its just a game dont take it so seriously. I belive that Cholera could talk and entertain you how much more epic Park Jung Suk is because of ACE. you should check his VODs.
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On April 20 2010 04:58 Prof. Protoss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 04:17 cHicKeLoR wrote:
It is mandatory for Koreans to join the army... well if they can. In Germany you can go to the military or work for civilian/community service for the time.
Anyway, since it is mandatory I don't understand how it affects the youth in joining the army... they have to anyway... I'm glad that it's possible for us germans to chose what you want to do. In my eyes it would be great if it was the same in other countries.
Too bad nobody cares what you see.
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On April 20 2010 04:58 Prof. Protoss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 04:17 cHicKeLoR wrote:
It is mandatory for Koreans to join the army... well if they can. In Germany you can go to the military or work for civilian/community service for the time.
Anyway, since it is mandatory I don't understand how it affects the youth in joining the army... they have to anyway... I'm glad that it's possible for us germans to chose what you want to do. In my eyes it would be great if it was the same in other countries.
Too bad somebody else has to clean up the shit out there if we don't
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Military service in SK is mandatory so I dunno what OP is rambling about tbh
They take pride in their country and in their military. Just because you guys have a tainted history it doesn't mean SK does. They have a different perspective on things, is all.
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On April 20 2010 08:34 Foucault wrote:
They take pride in their country and in their military. Just because you guys have a tainted history it doesn't mean SK does. They have a different perspective on things, is all.
Well wasn't South Korea a fairly nasty dictatorship until the late 1980s? Regular military coups, secret police torture, and the odd massacre of civilians by the soldiery? That's quite tainted, as history goes.
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But still - how great would it have been if Boxer said sth like "I know I have to do my duty but I don't want to play broodwar for merchandising the military"
Boxer would never say that because he is proud of doing it. I would assume absolute majority of Koreans that served in the military never regretted it.
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On April 20 2010 08:58 Aim Here wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 08:34 Foucault wrote:
They take pride in their country and in their military. Just because you guys have a tainted history it doesn't mean SK does. They have a different perspective on things, is all. Well wasn't South Korea a fairly nasty dictatorship until the late 1980s? Regular military coups, secret police torture, and the odd massacre of civilians by the soldiery? That's quite tainted, as history goes.
I think he was referring to the fact that SK never attempted to take over their continent, but yes, you're correct in saying that it was a military dictatorship until fairly recently..
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On April 20 2010 07:37 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 04:58 Prof. Protoss wrote:On April 20 2010 04:17 cHicKeLoR wrote:
It is mandatory for Koreans to join the army... well if they can. In Germany you can go to the military or work for civilian/community service for the time.
Anyway, since it is mandatory I don't understand how it affects the youth in joining the army... they have to anyway... I'm glad that it's possible for us germans to chose what you want to do. In my eyes it would be great if it was the same in other countries. Too bad nobody cares what you see.
Good thing you can speak for everybody.
My intention for this thread was to see if this is an issue for anyone else.
On April 20 2010 07:52 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 04:58 Prof. Protoss wrote:On April 20 2010 04:17 cHicKeLoR wrote:
It is mandatory for Koreans to join the army... well if they can. In Germany you can go to the military or work for civilian/community service for the time.
Anyway, since it is mandatory I don't understand how it affects the youth in joining the army... they have to anyway... I'm glad that it's possible for us germans to chose what you want to do. In my eyes it would be great if it was the same in other countries. Too bad somebody else has to clean up the shit out there if we don't
Pretty sure I saw more shit during my civil service than any soldier in the world. (just kidding, I know you're speaking metaphorically)
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United States33369 Posts
Not realizing that conscription is law in Korea severely derails your post.
Feel free to make a general thread about military service and advertising about it tho =o
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EPT
