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*** I am talking as a spectator ***
If you want to skip the WallOText. All I'm saying is there needs to be a more interesting micro oriented option for Zerg midgame. There is no equivalent to muta or lurker micro in SCII. Therefore I propose either making the Overseer a battlefield caster or make banelings worthwhile for mid games.
The Problem:
Why is Zerg so boring to watch in SCII? I'd been trying to put my finger on this for a while and then it hit me after watching Machine and Idra last night. They played really well especially that last game but despite the massive epic battle of awesome. But even then, I felt something missing...
-The control was good.
-The battle was huge near maxed armies colliding for 2 minutes solid minutes so that was nice.
But there was still something missing... and I then I realized what it was. There are so few micro abilities that zerg use mid-game. It is just mass as much of unit X with property Y to run around in circles and maybe kill opposing mass of unit W and Z. Its all about running around, getting position, and having enough mass to attrition you opponent down.You don't accomplish anything from flashy abilities like Protoss or cool tricks like Terran. Usually Zerg don't usually even go for drop. Now before you disagree with me, please continue since I'm not quite done yet.
Now some of you might say that this is how the swarm operated in SC1. Yes, but in SC1, the game had frenetic pacing. You had awesome runarounds from speed lings, please last long enough for defiler lurkers, or mutas darting in and out - you had this sense of desperation as the zerg continually burned units to get things done and desperately try to hold on until late game or just destroy everything in a low econ game.
Yes that came from about 10 years of development but even when I first started playing it in 2001, the zerg were just fast, ferocious, and deadly. Not so much in SCII where they have lost much of that. They are... well slower and seem confused. That sense of pacing is gone to some extent. I guess that comes from not having to expand as much and the slower and bumbling roach(gotta love seeing all those range 3 units spaz out in the back of an attack). You see flashes of it when the zerg tries to preserve map control but its not nearly what it was in SCI where the battles raged across the map.
Anyway, I'm not saying this newer style of zerg is inherently bad, I'm saying it just lacks something to make it interesting to watch. It lacks spectacle unlike the other two races. I think this mainly comes from a lack of the use of any interesting units. That is not to say that the units are inherently flawed, its just that there is nothing to them. Roaches tank, Hydralisks sit behind them so you can get more shooting power nerf or no nerf.
For example:
-Protoss has forcefield and blink. Forcefield spamming though annoying is as Day[9] said in one of the pod casts: just awesome to watch because of all the possibilities. You can create chokes, split armies in half, and pull wonderfully fun things with the. Likewise, even though Blink is rarer, it allows for unexpected win and fail.
-Terran has a bunch of random triggerable and random interesting abilities throughout the game. Hellion get line splash and get flanks on hydras and demolish them. Vikings transform. Siege Tanks siege. Banshees cloak. Marines and Mauraders stim. Ghosts EMP.
Solution:
So how to fix this? I think what is really missing for zerg is an interesting mid-level micro option that gives zerg tactical flexibility OR a mid level spell caster as Zerg. Why do I think this? Well lets go option by option:
Mid-Level Micro Unit:
What do I mean by an interesting micro unit? I mean something that has a lot of potential when used correctly or failure. In SCI this was Vulture/Reaver/Lurker. I guess crazy marinel/muta/and probe control counts too. When used correctly those units can turn games around and cause horrible horrible damage. That or they end up totally failing. Basically what I mean are units that are based on pure skill.
In SCII, the lurker was replaced by the Baneling. It is a nice and flashy unit. However outside of some early game cheese you don't see them at all yet.  Muta control is pretty much out and the only highly control based unit you see commonly are speedlings. I guess the nydus network counts as one of these but its quite luck based unless its on something like a cliffed natural.
So it seems to me, if you made the zerg mid-game more micro oriented, it would have to come from Banelings by the current design. They have to be more common and useful. Right now they are so easily popped its not even funny.
Mid-level Battlefield Spell Caster:
Zerg lacks a mid level spell caster like Protoss(Sentry) and Terran(Ghost) In fact they have only one real battlefield spell caster unlike the 2 that the other factions have:
-Sentry/HT for Protoss... The Mothership is just kinda borked right now and in a weird place...
-Ghost/Raven for Terran
Zerg only gets the Infestor and its late game. The closest things to a mid-level caster thats not part of their macro ability for Zerg are Overseers. Judging by some of the abilities its had and its cost, it seems to have been Zerg's original spell caster however most of those abilities were removed.
Right now the only use of the overseer is detection. Its alright at that and for the price it would seem balanced to the observer. However it costs money to make the original ovie and, its spells are pretty meh compared to permacloak, and can't be risked as much because it is a psi generator.
So my suggestion would be to give this unit a good support ability like the old acid spores(bonus damage to target units) with a small AOE.
Random Rantings and Thoughts:
My ideal solution would be to give Overseers the acid spores ability so overseers aren't useless if the enemy forced you to make some to waste gas for mobile detection and never go for any more cloaked units.
I would also rework the Infestor because Infestors aren't that interesting. Their spells are meh and the unit seems to be aimless like the mothership.
First, I would remove fungal growth. I would make the immobilizing effect a upgrade of the Baneling when it explodes instead so it will see use later game. The upgrade would give an upgrade to the death explosion so that a certain AOE slightly larger than the explosion itself would be covered with immobilizing goo.
Maybe replace the fungal growth on the infestor so its not redundant by something like:
Unstable Mitosis - Pokes a unit with its giant tentacle thing. It attaches a egg onto that unit. It explodes for 36 damage 3 seconds later damaging everything around it. It does not explode if the unit dies.
Since blizzard was trying to make the unit some sort of hit and run harasser.
That's all I have to say or maybe I'm just a noob. What do you think?
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Really like the idea of the late game baneling upgrade.
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On April 13 2010 01:54 Antisocialmunky wrote:
When used correctly those units can turn games around and cause horrible horrible damage.
How original.
EDIT: Pretty much agree with the units being underused.
Banelings are like the Reapers of Zerg. The movement speed upgrade doesn't cut it for the banelings.
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You forget that most micro in sc1 zerg was largely tied to a retarded engine, i.e. dumb lings, muta stacking. Also, the hydra has been moved out of T1...The roach IMO is hardly as micro-able as the hydra as it is slow to move, shorter range, slow to fire, and pauses for a long ass time while firing.
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On April 13 2010 02:11 zomgzergrush wrote:
You forget that most micro in sc1 zerg was largely tied to a retarded engine, i.e. dumb lings, muta stacking.
lol true
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On April 13 2010 02:11 zomgzergrush wrote:
You forget that most micro in sc1 zerg was largely tied to a retarded engine, i.e. dumb lings, muta stacking. Also, the hydra has been moved out of T1...The roach IMO is hardly as micro-able as the hydra as it is slow to move, shorter range, slow to fire, and pauses for a long ass time while firing.
Still doesn't discount that fact that it made for fun and interesting micro. I agree with the OP that zerg feels slow and the units unmicroable except for zerglings.
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+100 I love this thread so much 
Zerg really have no interesting units outside of the baneling. They really need something that is as fun to use and interesting to watch as mutas, lurkers, and defilers. Hell I'm in favor of getting rid of ultralisks if that means zerg get a new tier 3 unit that's far more interesting (honestly ultra's arent that interesting although a complete must for balance in BW)
I've actually spent the last 2 weeks doing a whole lot of theorycrafting for new zerg units/spells and how I would try to change zerg in SC2 (plan on posting them sometime when I can improve upon them). Right now their so depressingly boring that i cant play them at all.
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To be honest, I want Dark Swarm back in some way shape or form. Its just doesn't seem zergy if there are no orange clouds of murder. Actually something like that would be sufficient for Banelings later game.
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I actually like the idea of the Infestor as it is, but think it needs faster movement speed and a bit more range. Everything else I agree completely with. Zerg is just... so... slow! I can't micro anything because even my Hydras move like molasses now. I tend to go very heavy on Speedlings simply because they are fast enough to micro and are exciting.
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speedlings can still kind of be micro'd I guess but I just really hate how they have auto-surround, and it just feels weird being able to control 200+ lings at once lol. I know the later part is totally stupid to bitch about and it's just me being behind the times or whatever, but there's something to be said about the satisfaction of properly controlling 50+ lings without hotkeys, 12 at a time.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 13 2010 02:20 Ideas wrote:+100 I love this thread so much Zerg really have no interesting units outside of the baneling. They really need something that is as fun to use and interesting to watch as mutas, lurkers, and defilers. Hell I'm in favor of getting rid of ultralisks if that means zerg get a new tier 3 unit that's far more interesting (honestly ultra's arent that interesting although a complete must for balance in BW) I've actually spent the last 2 weeks doing a whole lot of theorycrafting for new zerg units/spells and how I would try to change zerg in SC2 (plan on posting them sometime when I can improve upon them). Right now their so depressingly boring that i cant play them at all. Uberlisk?! Except, like, it starts off with no spine crawlers on it's back and you have to manually add them to it! omg!
Seriously though, Zerg is in a pretty depressing state at the moment. Just something to liven gameplay up a bit - like Roaches being able to split into two mini roaches instead of underground healing. Or making the infestor less terrible, or something.
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It's impossible to get the excitement back as it was in SC1 unless they made some serious UI or AI changes. Micro as it was known is basically dead IMO. I think the main issue here is more with the game system than with zerg in particular. Zerg just happens to be more braindead than the other races currently :\
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Agreed with OP, Zerg feels slow except for lings which quickly become obsolete without abilities such as Dark Swarm or some other form of melee friendly stuff.
Nerf Roach and make Zerg more fun to play? I'm going to end up switching races if they don't do make any big changes before release. The roach is such a confused unit in the first place. It's a tank that does good damage, that is also supposed to be a harass unit, all of that at t1 for 1 supply and low cost... who woulda guessed there would be a problem with that...
This whole "hero unit" thing is just terrible for the game in general, but it shows most for Zerg which is sooo dependent on it...
Edit: generally Zerg units feel pretty underwhelming for their cost too, except for the Roach of course. Terran and Toss just get more "bang for the buck" as someone else was putting it.
And edit again: It really seems they didn't put in that much work on the Zerg when you look at new units/abilities in general....
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i really like the overseer suggestion
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Zerg was by far my favorite race of BW. The delaying harass from mutas and lings while teching to lurkers and then defiles was so thrilling. The play of those units was so much fun too.
Zerg has fewer combat units, fewer battle caster units, and no real micro units.
I enjoy both protoss and terran far more than Z now, and whenever I lose to zerg, its because they massed the right unit and a moved. There was no real harass or cool micro.
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I wouldn't care if zerg wasn't fun to watch, but it is horrendously boring to play also, which also comes back to lack of viable units.
Remember the ladder start, where the "standart" unit compositions were like this:
vT: speedlings/banelings to own marine/marauder and transition into hydras with speedlings and banelings later. That was before terran discovered marauder to be the counter to everything that does not fly.
vP: Friggin mutalisks! Flying all over the place with mutas ehile macroing and harassing with lings. Now that was awesome, it felt a little like corsair reaver because you had to babysit your army all the time.
vZ it was roaches. Yeah.
And what is it now? Now it is hydra roach in every matchup, only with weaker hydras and weaker roaches, so you can't afford the slightest aggression because you need this perfect flank in the middle of the map with 40 hydras and 50 roaches.
Havent Blizzard written some stuff about unit diversity for zerg?
This was the point where I switched to random. Sure, I am gonna drop one league but at least it is fun.
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On April 13 2010 02:46 shmoo wrote:
Zerg was by far my favorite race of BW. The delaying harass from mutas and lings while teching to lurkers and then defiles was so thrilling. The play of those units was so much fun too.
Zerg has fewer combat units, fewer battle caster units, and no real micro units.
I enjoy both protoss and terran far more than Z now, and whenever I lose to zerg, its because they massed the right unit and a moved. There was no real harass or cool micro.
Same goes for me. Also, I don't like the queen. Yes, her abilities awesome and zerg needs it to keep up with T and P macro but now you can just easily 2 base as a zerg instead of the more all-over-the-map-zerg like it is in sc1. The macro change combined with the lack of fun (harass) units made me switch to T.
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banelings r only worth getting against marines
and nobody is getting marines beacuse the suck vs every single zerg unit, except for mutalisk but then again its better to counter muta with thor because u dont need to upgrade stim or shields to make it useful
if u would buff marines and nerf marauders ppl would use marines more and that means ppl also would use baneling more and that would encourage melee upgrades which would push zergs into using zerglings and ultralisks more rather than only ranged units.
another thing they could do is give the hydra extra dmg vs armor and less dmg in general, that would also help zerg diversity in the same direction as my idea stated above. then hydra alone wouldnt be able to counter every single t1 unit in the game
i think they could add some gas cost to the overseer and give it 1-2 more abilities that could be used in the battlefield. it doesnt bring anything to the table except for detection, the changeling doesnt work on high levels.
they should just remove that god damn changeling, how the hell does a zerg monster shape like a marine with armor and how do the terran army not notice its an alien, retarded spell imo.
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Unfortunately I don't think you can fix the bore that is Zerg without reworking both Roaches and Marauders...
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On April 13 2010 02:36 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 02:20 Ideas wrote:+100 I love this thread so much Zerg really have no interesting units outside of the baneling. They really need something that is as fun to use and interesting to watch as mutas, lurkers, and defilers. Hell I'm in favor of getting rid of ultralisks if that means zerg get a new tier 3 unit that's far more interesting (honestly ultra's arent that interesting although a complete must for balance in BW) I've actually spent the last 2 weeks doing a whole lot of theorycrafting for new zerg units/spells and how I would try to change zerg in SC2 (plan on posting them sometime when I can improve upon them). Right now their so depressingly boring that i cant play them at all. Uberlisk?! Except, like, it starts off with no spine crawlers on it's back and you have to manually add them to it! omg! Seriously though, Zerg is in a pretty depressing state at the moment. Just something to liven gameplay up a bit - like Roaches being able to split into two mini roaches instead of underground healing. Or making the infestor less terrible, or something.
hell im even in favor of getting rid of the hydra if it means a cool unit can replace it lol
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It is probably true that for someone who is purely observing a game zerg isn't as much fun as protoss or terran.
I personally like how zerg plays at the moment, even though I guess there are people who think differently.
There is one midgame ability that I rarely see players using well that can actually be very interesting and probably also fun to watch. Only in certain situations though. I'm talking about Generate Creep. Together with Overlord speed this ability can be very versatile and useful. It is most fun if a protoss is fast expanding and the zerg is hydra pushing like I do in this case. Hydras shine on creep and Overlords bring the creep to the hydras. It's basically the opposite of Forcefield, as it speeds up your unit, while Forcefield stops your opponent's units. Creep can also be used to prevent your opponent from building at some location, preferably his expansion. Or you can creep a Terran's mineral line just before you get Mutas. He won'tbe able to put up Turrets if done with the right timing and not stopped too quickly.
Generate Creep is inferior to Forcefield in the aspect that it isn't instantaneous. I could imagine a spell that shoots a blob of creep over some range or an Overlord might just take a BIG dump for some energy and creep a certain area instantly. Spawn Infested Terran could be replaced with a Spawn Blob of Creep spell.
Generally I think that creep is a very interesting feature in SC2 that could even be enhanced some more. Especially replacing the Spawn Infested Terran spell with some creep based ability would be great simply because Spawn Infested Terran sucks so badly. Queens would be able to spread constant creep, Overlords would offer "mobile" creep, and Infestors would provide quick but unstable creep. I also feel that spreading creep on the whole map feels very zergy.
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These are probably the first suggestions I actually like out of all the suggestion/discussion threads combined lol
Especially the baneling upgrades.
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On April 13 2010 02:52 MorroW wrote:
banelings r only worth getting against marines
and nobody is getting marines beacuse the suck vs every single zerg unit, except for mutalisk but then again its better to counter muta with thor because u dont need to upgrade stim or shields to make it useful
if u would buff marines and nerf marauders ppl would use marines more and that means ppl also would use baneling more and that would encourage melee upgrades which would push zergs into using zerglings and ultralisks more rather than only ranged units.
another thing they could do is give the hydra extra dmg vs armor and less dmg in general, that would also help zerg diversity in the same direction as my idea stated above. then hydra alone wouldnt be able to counter every single t1 unit in the game
i think they could add some gas cost to the overseer and give it 1-2 more abilities that could be used in the battlefield. it doesnt bring anything to the table except for detection, the changeling doesnt work on high levels.
they should just remove that god damn changeling, how the hell does a zerg monster shape like a marine with armor and how do the terran army not notice its an alien, retarded spell imo.
I wouldn't mind if rines remained the same, but if the reactor was un-nerfed.
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Nice to see such a well thought out bit of criticism. I agree with the comments made in the OP - specifically, the lack of zerg-rage in Sc2. I'd love to see a bit more zerg speed without having to lay out a creep highway beforehand.
The infestor, as well as the mothership, seems in an odd place where casters are concerned. It's not so much that I dislike the abilities, but I find it 'awkward' in combat. Initially I really enjoyed the concept of a burrowed caster - a replacement of sorts for the death-trap mentality behind the lurker, but since then it's started to feel like a fat high templar with a sticky psi-storm.
Certainly though, the Zerg need more interesting micro-skills in their arsenal. It would be nice to see some of the old units brought back, especially when the Ultralisk is feeling a little too heavily countered at the moment. Ultimately it'd just be nice to see a little more synergy between the units - a facet of both Terran and Protoss that seems far more polished in comparison.
Nice work OP!
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I do agree to an extent. Zerg is fun to play but its not the mostt exciting race to watch and see.
A caster unit is what is really needed. Scourges and lurkers are really missed :c
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On April 13 2010 03:05 L wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 02:52 MorroW wrote:
banelings r only worth getting against marines
and nobody is getting marines beacuse the suck vs every single zerg unit, except for mutalisk but then again its better to counter muta with thor because u dont need to upgrade stim or shields to make it useful
if u would buff marines and nerf marauders ppl would use marines more and that means ppl also would use baneling more and that would encourage melee upgrades which would push zergs into using zerglings and ultralisks more rather than only ranged units.
another thing they could do is give the hydra extra dmg vs armor and less dmg in general, that would also help zerg diversity in the same direction as my idea stated above. then hydra alone wouldnt be able to counter every single t1 unit in the game
i think they could add some gas cost to the overseer and give it 1-2 more abilities that could be used in the battlefield. it doesnt bring anything to the table except for detection, the changeling doesnt work on high levels.
they should just remove that god damn changeling, how the hell does a zerg monster shape like a marine with armor and how do the terran army not notice its an alien, retarded spell imo. I wouldn't mind if rines remained the same, but if the reactor was un-nerfed.
yes that is very solid idea. the marine stats are actually very good as a unit and the build time is acceptable. what brings them down so much is the difficulty to get the reactor and without the reactor they build way too slow. i dont even know why they nerfed the reactor in the first place, was it because of the tvp early game rushes?
another thing they could do is increase roach, hydra, ultra and infester speed and nerf the creep speed bonus. i think its silly with the whole creep give bonus speed in general
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I honestly don't know how you can claim Zerg is fun to play if you've so much as watched Zerg gameplay with units such as lurkers/defilers/scourge, or even played around with other races in sc2. It's fun if you compare it to say throwing rocks in a pond, but if you've been playing RTS for the past 10 years it's the most boring out of the 3 here and by far.
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Why Z is so boring? Cuz most ppl play wrong against and with Zerg. ^^'
Zerg is currently the one race able to play a macro-oriented game whilst defending against heavily aggressive builds, thats why Z is just macroing and defending. Soon, ppl will figure out stable macro-builds for the other races and that it's better to play macro-oriented than aggressive.
In this scenario, Zerg will also be able to apply aggression without allins and utilize several harrassment-tools Blizzard has given them, like Nydus, Overlord-Drops, Mutas etc. without cheesing/all-in'ing.
The Builds will become more stable and therfore the Metagame will shift in a way it's better to play economically very soon I guess, with Zerg figuring out how to deal with Immortal+4-Gateway-push and Terran aggression early on, so all the races will play more economically.
Though I agree with the lack of Micro-Intensive Units, mostly because of the polished AI, that kills stuff like proper Zergling-Control, Muta-Stacking etc. and the lack of Units with spells/abilities on the Zerg-side. Zerg is just a more Macro-Multitasking-oriented race in SC2 I guess with emphasis on massing up Units/Hatcheries, speed and harrassment.
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Either make the infestor a more fundamental part of zerg armies or give a main unit (like roach/hydra/ling) some sort of interesting micro-able ability. Gameplay wise this may not be necessary but it would add another level to the race, make it more interesting for spectators and help better players show as much.
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At least give hydras their speed back...This would make people move away from roaches a bit more too.
EDIT:
Off creep.
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Australia639 Posts
I actually agree quite strongly with OP. Coming in to SC2 i was excited most about the possibility of playing zerg but it quickly dropped in favour of the other two races.
While I feel that the roach and hydra (still) overlap too much, the infestor is horribly uninteresting and the overseer's changeling ability is incredibly underwhelming.
I hadn't thought of the banelings being underused mid-to-late game, but that may just be me.
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Calgary25980 Posts
I'm closing this since I feel you haven't sufficiently proven the cause of the problem and are just suggesting random additions.
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EPT
