EPTJust had a pvz revelation
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
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0mgVitaminE
United States1278 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
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-ty[r]ant
United States140 Posts
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
On March 31 2010 20:11 nitdkim wrote: quick, buy me a ticket to korea. Era of P>Z here we come!!! Wait, did you just flame yourself? | ||
KwarK
United States43350 Posts
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minus_human
4784 Posts
On March 31 2010 20:23 KwarK wrote: Yeah, if only Protoss had a unit that couldn't be seen without detection that could do a load of damage under swarm. That'd tip the balance. It'd be worth sacrificing 2 dts to make a darchon in order to get that kind of unit. I really love this type of humour! Is the irony due to the fact that you're British? | ||
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
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KwarK
United States43350 Posts
On March 31 2010 20:28 minus_human wrote: I really love this type of humour! Is the irony due to the fact that you're British? Not entirely. It's about 70/30 between British and the anger burning within. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27156 Posts
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
On March 31 2010 20:23 KwarK wrote: Yeah, if only Protoss had a unit that couldn't be seen without detection that could do a load of damage under swarm. That'd tip the balance. It'd be worth sacrificing 2 dts to make a darchon in order to get that kind of unit. well darchon rarely get focus fired so they'll probably live a bit long time and zerg wont go muta to kill off high templars in fear of maelstorm. plus the method i was thinkin of to get those lurkers in the first place would be that you would mind control 2-3 lurkers right after a fight starts and you would fight it out. if the mind controlled lurkers survive, then you would move them to your newly warping nexus. plus in lategame, you can feedback defilers too. Let's try to bring more opposition and flaws of this strategy. personally, i think it can be done. | ||
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KwarK
United States43350 Posts
Aim: Cloaked defence for holding expansions vs swarm Solution 1: 2 dt -> darchon -> mind control -> lurker -> win battle -> send lurker to expansion Solution 2: 2 dt -> send 2 dt to expansion | ||
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KwarK
United States43350 Posts
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
I do wonder if mind control has a place against a Terran, since Protoss tends to ride the food cap against Terran, but it's probably still not worthwhile. Maybe on the turtliest of maps. | ||
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KwarK
United States43350 Posts
Of course, if he was behind your army he'd function much like a reaver, throwing out splash damage in support of the zealots. But given he's surrounded by zerg he'll be lucky if he even fires once. All you're doing in battle is trading 200 energy for a lurker kill. You're better off casting two maelstroms as those can really mess up the pathing of units trying to enter the battle behind them and clump units into storm bait. There is absolutely nothing good about this idea. | ||
Hyde
Australia14568 Posts
On March 31 2010 20:53 KwarK wrote: Mind controlled lurker, damage recieved from cracklings, 7, damage dealt to cracklings, 17. Hp 125. By my estimation about 4 cracklings could take him down. Cracklings have absurd attack speed and because he'd lose any ranged upgrades it'd be 3 hits to kill a single zergling. Explain to me how it survives long enough to do 3 hits. Of course, if he was behind your army he'd function much like a reaver, throwing out splash damage in support of the zealots. But given he's surrounded by zerg he'll be lucky if he even fires once. All you're doing in battle is trading 200 energy for a lurker kill. You're better off casting two maelstroms as those can really mess up the pathing of units trying to enter the battle behind them and clump units into storm bait. There is absolutely nothing good about this idea. Much respect to KwarK, he could have made several posts poking fun at the OP and this thread like some others but no he injects some logic into it. Respect. | ||
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
Kwark, I see many of your points but I'm not in anyway trying to say that I'm right or that you are wrong. Of course this is a very (very, very) flawed strategy since no one uses it but I think it would be on the similar level as Terran nuke rush. Totally useless but epic. | ||
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
how about MC a ling and bring it to expo and deny drone how about MC 10 hydras and attempt a hydra break in his 3rd MCing a lurk is useless imo since zerg always bring ovy with his army ,then ur MCed lurk will die in an instant | ||
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KwarK
United States43350 Posts
On March 31 2010 21:00 nitdkim wrote: since zergs lay lurkers down in such a way to prevent storm killing more than 1, i think it would be possible to get those lurkers alive throughout the battle (this would be during the time when zerg defends with only lurker/crackling for transition to ultralisks, which is the main focus for this strategy). Maybe you could use dark archon arbiter teams to recall the lurkers out from the battle to behind your zealot lines. -_- Or maybe you could give up and use unit combinations that aren't ridiculously inefficient. | ||
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
On March 31 2010 21:05 justiceknight wrote: how about MC the ovy so that they cant get ur observer how about MC a ling and bring it to expo and deny drone how about MC 10 hydras and attempt a hydra break in his 3rd MCing a lurk is useless imo since zerg always bring ovy with his army ,then ur MCed lurk will die in an instant well my timing for using MC would be 1a2a3ccc4t(t)(t)(t) in my head, it would be right when zealot reaches lurker to attack it. toss army would be on top of the lurkers you just mindcontrolled basically. | ||
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KwarK
United States43350 Posts
On March 31 2010 21:00 nitdkim wrote: Totally useless We are agreed. Under this topic please also see carrier rush, pure zealot scout, pure corsair scout, mass expansion cannon reaver and much, much more. And if you don't mind sacrificing style then there are hundreds more of entirely boring ways to play really badly. Shall we list those too? | ||
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-ty[r]ant
United States140 Posts
On March 31 2010 21:09 KwarK wrote: We are agreed. Under this topic please also see carrier rush, pure zealot scout, pure corsair scout, mass expansion cannon reaver and much, much more. And if you don't mind sacrificing style then there are hundreds more of entirely boring ways to play really badly. Shall we list those too? fuck that all we need is scouts forget zeals and corsairs scouts scouts scouts | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
Actually, I just want to watch someone good use this lol. | ||
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Hyde
Australia14568 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108490 | ||
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KwarK
United States43350 Posts
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phaleos
Australia105 Posts
1 dark archon = 250mineral/200 gas, mind control takes 200/200 to research. Which equivalents roughly 2 zealots and 1 high templar. This makes dark archons very resource inefficient. Basically they are only useful for mind controlling expensive units (carriers, BC) maelstroming mass zerg air army or taunting with D level noobs. Using them against lurker is stupid. Did you know if you use dark archon this way, they are pretty much one time use only? Every time you mind control a lurker, you will also definitely lose the dark archon to hydra fire when it drains its shield (note, mind control range isn't very far.) Dark archons are also gas heavy. In order to make lurker mind controlling effective, you will need quite a few more than 1 dark archon. You also need constant dark templar production to meet the loss of dark archons due to reason mention above. That sort of dark templar production, puts high templar out of question. Mind controlling a few lurkers won't stop your high templar-less army from being overrun by hydra/ling. Using lurkers in your base defense is even more hilarious. How do you plan to mind control a lurker and then get it to where you want it alive? Lurkers are normally in fields (sorry but i haven't heard of people burrowing one single lurker in the middle of nowhere for you to mind control.), that lurker you mind control will get killed by surrounding lurkers the instant you unburrow it. (also your opponent will start having his overlord around his lurkers when he sees what you are planning.) And if you mind control lurker in battle, please read above. To summarize: there is no way you can mind control that many lurkers and get them in position, further more there is no way you can survive that long with this sort of unit combination. | ||
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
On March 31 2010 21:21 KwarK wrote: What if they skip lurkers? then research maelstorm? | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On March 31 2010 21:15 nitdkim wrote: Kwark, may I request that you use this strategy and show us the flaws of the strategy and upload a replay? Someone of your level using it and posting replay would be more convincing it sucks rather than me using it and posting a replay. Actually, I just want to watch someone good use this lol. Why would Kwark do that? He deconstructed the entire idea in his first post. Watch the hour-long Stork vs. GGplay match on Andromeda if you want to see mind control vs. Zerg. | ||
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
On March 31 2010 21:22 phaleos wrote: Does nitdkim know everyone else is being sarcastic and that the strategy is completely unviable? 1 dark archon = 250mineral/200 gas, mind control takes 200/200 to research. Which equivalents roughly 2 zealots and 1 high templar. This makes dark archons very resource inefficient. Basically they are only useful for mind controlling expensive units (carriers, BC) maelstroming mass zerg air army or taunting with D level noobs. Using them against lurker is stupid. Did you know if you use dark archon this way, they are pretty much one time use only? Every time you mind control a lurker, you will also definitely lose the dark archon to hydra fire when it drains its shield (note, mind control range isn't very far.) Dark archons are also gas heavy. In order to make lurker mind controlling effective, you will need quite a few more than 1 dark archon. You also need constant dark templar production to meet the loss of dark archons due to reason mention above. That sort of dark templar production, puts high templar out of question. Mind controlling a few lurkers won't stop your high templar-less army from being overrun by hydra/ling. Using lurkers in your base defense is even more hilarious. How do you plan to mind control a lurker and then get it to where you want it alive? Lurkers are normally in fields (sorry but i haven't heard of people burrowing one single lurker in the middle of nowhere for you to mind control.), that lurker you mind control will get killed by surrounding lurkers the instant you unburrow it. (also your opponent will start having his overlord around his lurkers when he sees what you are planning.) And if you mind control lurker in battle, please read above. To summarize: there is no way you can mind control that many lurkers and get them in position, further more there is no way you can survive that long with this sort of unit combination. the timing of mindcontrol research would be towards when zerg would be Lurker/Ling based army in hive tech. if they go defiler/lings only, then D.archon would be useful for feedback also. I didn't intend for this strategy to be early game when zerg would have lurker/hydra army. | ||
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koOma
Norway462 Posts
On March 31 2010 20:23 KwarK wrote: Yeah, if only Protoss had a unit that couldn't be seen without detection that could do a load of damage under swarm. That'd tip the balance. It'd be worth sacrificing 2 dts to make a darchon in order to get that kind of unit. winnar | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
On March 31 2010 20:53 KwarK wrote: Mind controlled lurker, damage recieved from cracklings, 7, damage dealt to cracklings, 17. Hp 125. By my estimation about 4 cracklings could take him down. Cracklings have absurd attack speed and because he'd lose any ranged upgrades it'd be 3 hits to kill a single zergling. Explain to me how it survives long enough to do 3 hits. Of course, if he was behind your army he'd function much like a reaver, throwing out splash damage in support of the zealots. But given he's surrounded by zerg he'll be lucky if he even fires once. All you're doing in battle is trading 200 energy for a lurker kill. You're better off casting two maelstroms as those can really mess up the pathing of units trying to enter the battle behind them and clump units into storm bait. There is absolutely nothing good about this idea. Here's the missing piece! Once you get the lurker, you hallucinate it, so the opponent doesn't know which one is real, and makes the real lurker that much more effective. (Can hallucinated lurkers burrow?) | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
On March 31 2010 21:00 nitdkim wrote: since zergs lay lurkers down in such a way to prevent storm killing more than 1, i think it would be possible to get those lurkers alive throughout the battle (this would be during the time when zerg defends with only lurker/crackling for transition to ultralisks, which is the main focus for this strategy). Kwark, I see many of your points but I'm not in anyway trying to say that I'm right or that you are wrong. Of course this is a very (very, very) flawed strategy since no one uses it but I think it would be on the similar level as Terran nuke rush. Totally useless but epic. The nuke is near useless, BUT epic because it's a freaking nuke. It makes a big shiny BOOM. | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
goes by the lines, if you use scout and corsairs at the same time you will be an unstoppable force. you disruption web all ground units then you kill them with your scout. Incredible idea! | ||
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nerde
Norway19 Posts
I would like to see this being tested. If you can get a few Lurkers throughout the game they would be able to pick out quite a bit of lings if you make sure to play them like Reavers, as Kwark said earlier. | ||
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rredtooth
5461 Posts
On March 31 2010 21:09 KwarK wrote: crackling/devourer is the most stylish imoWe are agreed. Under this topic please also see carrier rush, pure zealot scout, pure corsair scout, mass expansion cannon reaver and much, much more. And if you don't mind sacrificing style then there are hundreds more of entirely boring ways to play really badly. Shall we list those too? | ||
Chill
Calgary25990 Posts
On March 31 2010 20:33 Manifesto7 wrote: It is because you are still reading general. I thought I told you to cut that shit out. It is for your health yo. Why did you post here and leave this open? Disappointed  | ||
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