Poll: Reaver VS Colossus
(Vote): Iconic SC unit with original gameplay mechanics.
(Vote): Generic Tripod-like laser shooter you could find in any RTS with bad animation.
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
Poll: Reaver VS Colossus (Vote): Iconic SC unit with original gameplay mechanics. (Vote): Generic Tripod-like laser shooter you could find in any RTS with bad animation. | ||
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Assault_1
Canada1950 Posts
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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FusionCutter
Canada974 Posts
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Puosu
7012 Posts
I believe Blizzard is saving lurker, reaver and vulture for the first expansion, they can't seriously be taking them out just like that knowing they're some of the most liked units ever. | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 03 2010 04:04 internetwarrior wrote: Is anyone actually saying the Colossus walking animation (including going up and down cliffs since it's exactly the same) doesn't look bad? It's ok. | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
On March 03 2010 04:04 BluzMan wrote: Show nested quote + On March 03 2010 04:04 internetwarrior wrote: Is anyone actually saying the Colossus walking animation (including going up and down cliffs since it's exactly the same) doesn't look bad? It's ok. You're being nice. Everytime I see one of those things going up and down cliffs I feel like I'm back to 2d graphics because it looks so wrong. | ||
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
On March 03 2010 04:04 BluzMan wrote: Let's just have both and move Immortal to Gateway where it rightly belongs (because it ain't fucking robotic in the first place). So you honestly think that warping in multiple Immortal's (depending on your gates) in almost no time is a good idea... ? Anyway, ontopic. I actually like the colossus, because it's something new and refreshing. But at the same time I miss the reaver so much. In the end if I had to choose between the two I would pick the reaver, but I don't think blizzard is ever just gonna patch the colossus out to put the reaver back in, that's just wishfull thinking. | ||
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FusionCutter
Canada974 Posts
Since you are so reaver nostalgic, here you go.. + Show Spoiler + ![]() | ||
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Niten
United States598 Posts
And people who are open to new units are not "misguided souls" anymore than you are blinded by nostalgia. | ||
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
On March 03 2010 04:09 Liquid_Turbo wrote: I'm just speculating, but perhaps the reaver was too 'random' for the SC2 designers tastes. They wanted the game to be 100% skill based, (hence they removed the 50% chance up hitting uphill mechanic). Reavers were fun to watch because they we're tense and you never knew how many SCVs you could blow up. But I think they wanted to remove this element of unpredictability, similar to spider mines. Another way of thinking about it is that they could easily have programmed Scarabs to hit the thing you targeted 100% of the time in SC2, but that would go against the historic spirit of the Reaver and would result in a balance nightmare--how much damage should a Reaver who can actually hit 100% of the time do? How fast should it move? How much health should it have? In any event it would be a much less exciting unit. Intentionally making Scarabs buggy might be really difficult (see: the trouble they've had with Muta stacking) and would probably result in a balance nightmare, too. It's better that we've moved on. | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
That is your only argument here? I'm looking for one good reason why we should replace a good unit with generic crap that is in every other RTS, and also happens to walk around like it has a robotic stick up its behind. In other words, sure replace the Reaver, just find a better excuse to can it than the failure that is the Colossus. | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
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Polis
Poland1292 Posts
On March 03 2010 04:09 Liquid_Turbo wrote: I'm just speculating, but perhaps the reaver was too 'random' for the SC2 designers tastes. They wanted the game to be 100% skill based, (hence they removed the 50% chance up hitting uphill mechanic). Reavers were fun to watch because they we're tense and you never knew how many SCVs you could blow up. But I think they wanted to remove this element of unpredictability, similar to spider mines, to make the game 100% skill based, rather than something like, say 95%. They should remove fog of war then. How many worse players had won becouse of some supper luck in the uphill miss chance? It is a made up problem. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
My argument isn't nostalgia. It's that the Colossus is generic laser shooting crap, and that it looks bad when moving (and terrible when going up/down cliffs) to top it off. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + just kidding , i love them both but i think they should add the reaver and make the colosus slower and take down hp slightly feels like toss missed this harass unit cause ive never seen harass me out of the 120 games i played if they added reaver they should probably be forced to give it some 'walking mode' to fit in with the sc2 atmosphere :p | ||
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jonnyp
United States415 Posts
On March 03 2010 04:03 Puosu wrote: Its a boring replacement to a very creative unit that has been considered to be one of the funniest unit of SC ever, I can't think many people can seriously defend colossus here. :/ I believe Blizzard is saving lurker, reaver and vulture for the first expansion, they can't seriously be taking them out just like that knowing they're some of the most liked units ever. And most hated ![]() It's even more sad because the reaver would look awesome in 3d lol | ||
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Kurdran
36 Posts
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Undisputed-
United States379 Posts
I don't mind having a new unit I just hate the way the model looks and attacks. | ||
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DoomBacon
United States165 Posts
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
I don't care if the Reaver "has to go", I'd just like to see a GOOD reason for it. The Colossus is a mediocre unit with a mediocre animation. And again, you can find a laser shooting tripod in so many places nowadays, I don't see why you'd can a scarab-building robotic caterpillar which is unique to the SC universe for that. | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
On March 03 2010 04:19 internetwarrior wrote: Colossus get used a lot more often because you can A-move and cause a lot of damage with them, yes. Basically any noob can cause hurt with the Colossus, unlike the Reaver. Does that make for good gameplay? Don't think so. You are forgetting that any AA can hit them and that because they are so devastating vs ground, they will be the first target to be focussed down so you'll need to protect them with other units, strategically retreat them to keep them alive, etc. Not just A-move and win. My argument isn't nostalgia. It's that the Colossus is generic laser shooting crap, and that it looks bad when moving (and terrible when going up/down cliffs) to top it off. It looks pretty cool. One of the better new additions definately. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 03 2010 04:08 FictionJV wrote: Show nested quote + On March 03 2010 04:04 BluzMan wrote: Let's just have both and move Immortal to Gateway where it rightly belongs (because it ain't fucking robotic in the first place). So you honestly think that warping in multiple Immortal's (depending on your gates) in almost no time is a good idea... ? Anyway, ontopic. I actually like the colossus, because it's something new and refreshing. But at the same time I miss the reaver so much. In the end if I had to choose between the two I would pick the reaver, but I don't think blizzard is ever just gonna patch the colossus out to put the reaver back in, that's just wishfull thinking. I honestly think that Immortal is currently on it's way to complete overhaul being the only toss unit able to hurt armored stuff (c'mon, you need to build it to counter tier 1 roaches). No way it will see any play in release, so yeah, I want that unit to be brought to the state when it can be produced from gates, and I think that is likely to happen. Reaver is just what protoss is about - shitton of damage and slow. It doesn't fill the role of Colossus and is in it's essence much different. | ||
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
Laser attack needs to go please. The protoss never really used lasers in SC and should not begin to use them in SC2. But hell, if it HAS to be lasers, at least make them somewhat unique... an explosion or something when the beams come together would at least cover up the lameness that is the laser attack animation. What is the use of including someone else's great idea in your work if you dont even have the common decency to improve on it in any way? | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
Reavers with good scarab pathfinding, no glitching, and Warp Prisms to transport them would be incredibly, incredibly imbalanced. Colossi's air-weakness, cliff-climbing abilities, and line damage fit much better in the SC2 Protoss force in general. Also, the Colossus is a giant alien tripod of mega-death; anyone who does not appreciate a giant alien tripod of mega-death is not someone I could ever trust. And is anyone actually saying you couldn't find a Tripod lookalike shooting lasers in just about ANY future themed RTS?. Yes, yes I am. Certainly, tripods are a well-known icon of science fiction, but they're that not common in video games, nor do most of them look that much like the Colossus. CnC's tripods, for example, look like this: + Show Spoiler + ![]() Not nearly as awesome as the Colossus: ![]() | ||
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
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FusionCutter
Canada974 Posts
On March 03 2010 04:18 Polis wrote: Show nested quote + On March 03 2010 04:09 Liquid_Turbo wrote: I'm just speculating, but perhaps the reaver was too 'random' for the SC2 designers tastes. They wanted the game to be 100% skill based, (hence they removed the 50% chance up hitting uphill mechanic). Reavers were fun to watch because they we're tense and you never knew how many SCVs you could blow up. But I think they wanted to remove this element of unpredictability, similar to spider mines, to make the game 100% skill based, rather than something like, say 95%. They should remove fog of war then. How many worse players had won becouse of some supper luck in the uphill miss chance? It is a made up problem. I don't disagree with you.. I'm just going by what the designers have said... | ||
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Deleted User 55994
949 Posts
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Polis
Poland1292 Posts
Collosus, powerful a-move unit that can walk on cliff. I like that you can shoot it with both anty air, anty ground, but no scrouges makes it less interesting then it could had been. It is not nostalgia. I like the new Ghost, and Raven seem good. | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
"because they are so devastating vs ground, they will be the first target to be focussed down so you'll need to protect them with other units, strategically retreat them to keep them alive, etc. Not just A-move and win." You can definitely A-move with Colossi and still cause a lot of damage if anything because they shoot instantly when in range, as opposed to the Reaver's scarab travel time. Also lol about AA. Shuttles? | ||
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Tyrannon
Germany113 Posts
I found it! Just play Terran^^ Its called Raven now and shoots Guiding Missiles!!! Well only one thoxD | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
I'm just speculating, but perhaps the reaver was too 'random' for the SC2 designers tastes. They wanted the game to be 100% skill based, (hence they removed the 50% chance up hitting uphill mechanic). Reavers were fun to watch because they we're tense and you never knew how many SCVs you could blow up. But I think they wanted to remove this element of unpredictability, similar to spider mines, to make the game 100% skill based, rather than something like, say 95%. No, it's the exact opposite. The Reaver in SC1 was so unpredictable because the scarab pathfinding absolutely, completely sucked, and this balanced out its insane splash damage, range, and with-shuttle mobility. A Reaver whose every shot moves smoothly to the target and detonates for full damage is a Reaver which annihilates virtually everything on the ground. | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
On March 03 2010 04:29 Captain Peabody wrote: anyone who does not appreciate a giant alien tripod of mega-death is not someone I could ever trust. Or simply someone older than 12... :/ | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
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Emon_
3925 Posts
I still can't be offensive with him, but 3 reavers + cannons = unlimited dead hydras As for the SC2 unit - people still play SC2? | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
Or simply someone older than 12... :/ So far, you have responded to counter-claims to your argument by (1): asking if someone is partially blind, and (2): implying that everyone who disagrees with you is under 12 years old. Clearly, you are the intelligent, mature person in this discussion. | ||
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ZlyKiss
Poland697 Posts
voting for good ol` catepillar | ||
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Quixoticism
United States80 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
I also called someone partially blind because if you appreciate the walking animation of the colossus, as well as its animation for going up and down cliffs, it is A FACT: you are partially blind. You're calling me a nostalgic? Remove the Thor also. Not because it's taking something else's place, but just because it looks fugly. Replace with whatever you want, I'm not nostalgic, I just don't like things that look and play like shit. | ||
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gragin
Singapore1 Post
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On March 03 2010 04:06 internetwarrior wrote: Show nested quote + On March 03 2010 04:04 BluzMan wrote: On March 03 2010 04:04 internetwarrior wrote: Is anyone actually saying the Colossus walking animation (including going up and down cliffs since it's exactly the same) doesn't look bad? It's ok. You're being nice. Everytime I see one of those things going up and down cliffs I feel like I'm back to 2d graphics because it looks so wrong. I'm Terran and everytime I see that thing walking up my cliff I shit my pants. -_- | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
Yes the initial statements are biased and I made it pretty obvious that I don't like the Colossus. It's not a secret. I'm not even trying to be fair. Now if someone has actual good arguments for why the Colossus is better than the Reaver, other than the fact that any noob can a-move with it and therefore it is more used, I'm all ears. | ||
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
I mean I like the Reaver better, but I think the Colossus is cool too. | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:14 bendez wrote: Sometimes I think blizzard is purposely leaving out these iconic units (lurkers, reavers) so that they can just add them in the expansion. At the very least I don't see a reason to remove them to replace them with units that are much less interesting / original. Such as the Roach or the Colossus. But hey I guess the community really wants their giant alien robots of mega death. They will get the game they deserve. | ||
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Tartantyco
Norway17 Posts
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Thegilaboy
United States2018 Posts
But like I said, and others before me, this is a super biased OP, not fit for any real practical discussion at all. | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
New != better, last I checked. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
Welcome to TeamLiquid. I can see you are going to last a long time here. I think the Collossus is a pretty nice unit, actually. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
Peabody, I'm not saying anyone who disagrees with me is under 12, only those who reason in terms of loving "giant alien robots of mega death". You seem to be the type that looooves superweapons that Browder is so heavy handedly bringing from C&C into Starcraft... And we all know how much better C&C is compared to SC. But it's ok because you get "giant alien whatevers of mega death". Yeah, that's a level of dorkitude I grew out of before my twenties. It was a joke; that is, a humorous statement meant to liven up a post. It wasn't the bulk of my argument. Also, liking how a tripod looks does not imply anything at all concerning gameplay-related "superweapons", which the Colossus most definitely is not an example of, and which obviously wouldn't fit in with SC gameplay. The reference to C&C is irrelevant. Also, please look up the term "ad hominem," and stop using it. That should make this discussion a lot more actual-discussion-like. Yes the initial statements are biased and I made it pretty obvious that I don't like the Colossus. It's not a secret. I'm not even trying to be fair. Now if someone has actual good arguments for why the Colossus is better than the Reaver, other than the fact that any noob can a-move with it and therefore it is more used, I'm all ears. Well, I made some in my first two posts in this thread. You can go back and read them if you want. | ||
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FusionCutter
Canada974 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:02 internetwarrior wrote: I also called someone partially blind because if you appreciate the walking animation of the colossus, as well as its animation for going up and down cliffs, it is A FACT: you are partially blind. You're calling me a nostalgic? Remove the Thor also. Not because it's taking something else's place, but just because it looks fugly. Replace with whatever you want, I'm not nostalgic, I just don't like things that look and play like shit. Stop trolling please. | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
Ok then. Woohoo the Colossus is awesome! It's so original I've never seen that kind of design before, and its walking animation is sooo well done I mean just look at that badass going up a cliff OMG. And it shoots LASERS! A giant alien robot of MEGA DEATH! Wow! Sign me up! | ||
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Islandsnake
United States679 Posts
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
I actually have been here before, but as you have accurately pointed out I tend to not last long because negativity on just about any subject is more or less strictly forbidden. I guess we're not allowed to dislike new units either? Just hail Blizzard? Ok then. Woohoo the Colossus is awesome! It's so original I've never seen that kind of design before, and its walking animation is sooo well done I mean just look at that badass going up a cliff OMG. And it shoots LASERS! A giant alien robot of MEGA DEATH! Wow! Sign me up! All of your posts in this thread have been the literal text equivalent of this: If you wish to argue a negative point, please actually ARGUE for it. Don't just continue to pat yourself on the back and apply copious ad hominems to everyone who argues against you. | ||
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Rhinoceros
United States7 Posts
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Tiamat
United States498 Posts
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:39 Rhinoceros wrote: I'm sure the Blizzard devs have heard this story a thousand times by now and have their reasons for sticking to the new unit. Yeah, Rob Pardo thought that a giant tripod lookalike that shoots lasers would be so much cooler and more original. Also as some other guy mentioned (probably banned by now) it has more potential for merchandising. | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
I also miss spider mines, scourge and m'n'm vs. lurkers. So far in SC2 I haven't seen the challenges these created but I'm hoping that it will change as we all learn more about the game. | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:42 Tiamat wrote: how does this thread NOT get locked yet I make an exact thread about Thor vs goliaths and it gets locked after 4 posts? Seriously i am curious about this. I guess the mods are out? But yeah Thors are pretty terrible also. Even if I don't particularly like the Goliath that much. | ||
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Squallcloud
France466 Posts
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peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
You guys haven't seen what you could do with the WC3 game engine eh? In WC3, you can mod the crap out of any model and create your own abilities (ie, own mechanics, animations, and how the ability is casted). This is shown really well in DotA since almost all the the spells were self-made and all the characters have slight changes. Since this is Starcraft II, it should be even easier to design new units, and IMO, Blizzard's BETA version of Starcraft is purely for making the game balanced. And trust me, that's probably the most important part of non-UMS Starcraft since blizzard wants people playing really long until they get off their asses and make another breakthrough game. Most of the old unit models will probably be available in the Campaign editor, and possibly, Blizzard will let us design entirely new Character models in SC2. | ||
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O_OBlue
United States7 Posts
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:44 Gigaudas wrote: Reavers in shuttles were hard as hell to control, thus I love them. The better players, like stork and bisu, would not have as convincing PvP stats if reavers were replaced with colossus because it would dumb the battles down. I haven't said that myself because I thought it was self-evident. Reavers to Colossi dumbs the game down. If you like/defend it, your loss. | ||
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Zhou
United States832 Posts
But I don't mind the colossus. Nor would I say its a replacement for the reaver. Sure, the reaver isn't in the game, but just cause they added a new unit doesn't mean it replaces another in that sense. As for the mechanics of the colossus, I don't mind that its a tripod either. It may not be that original as some other units, but it plays its role the way blizzard had wanted it to, more of less. SC2 isn't like SC, so it seems like the reaver probably wouldn't work the way it would if it were implemented in SC2. But who knows, I don't have a beta key. >: Going to have to just trust Blizzard and tripods. :D | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:46 Squallcloud wrote: I like change. I like change when it's to replace with something better, not change for change's sake. You could replace all the units in the game if you'd like, it would be a lot of change. Would be it better? Doubtful. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
I haven't said that myself because I thought it was self-evident. Reavers to Colossi dumbs the game down. If you like/defend it, your loss. Okay. So everyone who disagrees with you concerning Colossi and Reavers is just wrong. This nicely eliminates the need for a discussion thread on the topic. Goodbye, thread. I won't miss you. | ||
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dangots0ul
United States919 Posts
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onewingedmoogle
Canada434 Posts
reaver did insane damage but with drawbacks, the need for scarabs and its slow speed.(and dumb ai but it prolly wasnt designed that way). made battles more interesting cuz there was actually something to target to kill that could change the momentum of the whole game. | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:51 Captain Peabody wrote: Show nested quote + I haven't said that myself because I thought it was self-evident. Reavers to Colossi dumbs the game down. If you like/defend it, your loss. Okay. So everyone who disagrees with you concerning Colossi and Reavers is just wrong. This nicely eliminates the need for a discussion thread on the topic. Goodbye, thread. I won't miss you. Your only semi-serious argument, Peabody, is that Reavers in the SC2 engine that "never misses" would be incredibly unbalanced. Wow! I wonder if that could be tweaked by maybe reducing the damage per scarab down to an acceptable level? Give me a break, there is nothing serious to defend the colossus other than "it's new". Which is what I'd call piss poor an argument. | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:54 onewingedmoogle wrote: the colossus just doesnt have that "glass cannon" effect to it. most every unit in sc2 is an evenly balanced unit in terms of durability to damaging power. basically the more damage a unit does the more durable it is and the more expensive it is. reaver did insane damage but with drawbacks, the need for scarabs and its slow speed.(and dumb ai but it prolly wasnt designed that way). made battles more interesting cuz there was actually something to target to kill that could change the momentum of the whole game. Thanks for pointing out another obvious aspect of it that seems to elude most of these GIANT ROBOT OF DEATH advocates. | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:55 internetwarrior wrote: Your only semi-serious argument, Peabody, is that Reavers in the SC2 engine that "never misses" would be incredibly unbalanced. Wow! I wonder if that could be tweaked by maybe reducing the damage per scarab down to an acceptable level? Give me a break, there is nothing serious to defend the colossus other than "it's new". Which is what I'd call piss poor an argument. You are so dense it is unbelievable. Lock this thread already plz. | ||
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madsweepslol
161 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:38 Islandsnake wrote: I voted option 2 because the OP was already bias lol same | ||
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Thegilaboy
United States2018 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:27 internetwarrior wrote: Gilaboy: do you have any arguments other than "this is new" or the excellent "I like giant alien robots of mega death". New != better, last I checked. Man dude, you are just looking to pick a fight aren't you? Never said I like giant alien robots or whatever, but what I do like is effective change. I enjoy the Colossus because I think its ability to scale cliffs, and overall impact against light ground units sways the way my opponent will approach how they both defend themselves and attack me. On top of that, the fact that it can be hit by air-to-air units means that I must be mindful of exactly what I bring out with it. I think this has caused me to make sure I'm bringing out properly mixed armies, because I hate to see my resources get wasted when a Colossus gets taken down by Vikings. Also, how are you having such a hard time with the giant robot thing man? Seriously, everything in Starcraft and all other Sci-Fi games/movies/books take from one another that its just not worth getting worked up about. The only reason I think your OP is terrible is because here at TL we strive to have effective and meaningful discussion, and that requires effort from both the initiator of the conversation, and those that engage with them. So please, just put forth a little more effort in the OP next time and I think you'll find you get both a lot more respect, and useful debate. | ||
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psychopat
Canada417 Posts
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
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RAZROK
Latvia49 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:50 internetwarrior wrote: I like change when it's to replace with something better, not change for change's sake. You could replace all the units in the game if you'd like, it would be a lot of change. Would be it better? Doubtful. Quote all he said. He had a reason for what he said. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
Your only semi-serious argument, Peabody, is that Reavers in the SC2 engine that "never misses" would be incredibly unbalanced. Wow! I wonder if that could be tweaked by maybe reducing the damage per scarab down to an acceptable level? Give me a break, there is nothing serious to defend the colossus other than "it's new". Which is what I'd call piss poor an argument. Well, no matter how you balanced it, the SC2 Reaver would still do massive amounts of damage in a way that is not inherently that "interesting"; i.e. once you add in great pathfinding and consequently make it so the Reaver pretty much always hits the units it fires at within a certain range, then the incredible excitement of scarabs (will it land, will it land?) in SC1 goes away pretty quickly. The only way to keep this excitement would be to make the scarabs much slower (a la HK missile on the Raven), so that running units away from the scarabs would be an actually viable form of micro in a world where Scarabs don't randomly glitch out on units, walls, and mineral patches. Also, a damage reduction would almost definitely be necessary, either in addition to or in place of the slower scarabs. However, if you reduce the Reaver's damage too much, or make its projectiles too slow, you risk making it practically useless; the fact that it is one of only two units in the game to have build to its ammo using minerals, is incredibly slow, and requires another unit to be useful are all huge drawbacks against it, balanced out in SC1 by its incredible damage. If you reduce this too much, you're looking at a mostly-unused unit. Also, with the fast speed of SC2, a T2 unit that is that slow and really only useful once you've built another unit and paired it with it another unit would be an even bigger liability in SC2 than in SC1. SC2 moves much faster than SC1, especially early-to-midgame; getting out a Reaver/Warp Prism in time to fight the units its supposed to counter would be much more difficult. Also, being almost totally immobile without another unit to make it mobile is much less of a liability in SC1 (where most units are fairly immobile anyway) than in SC2, where almost all viable units are fast and extremely mobile. The Colossus is also an interesting unit, what with its linear splash damage, cliff-walking abilities (both allowing for various types of positioning micro), and susceptibility to anti-air; but it simply fits better into SC2 than the Reaver would. This is no slight. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
The reaver is like 100x better. One of the best old units vs one of the worst new units >.< | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 03 2010 05:55 internetwarrior wrote: Your only semi-serious argument, Peabody, is that Reavers in the SC2 engine that "never misses" would be incredibly unbalanced. Wow! I wonder if that could be tweaked by maybe reducing the damage per scarab down to an acceptable level? Give me a break, there is nothing serious to defend the colossus other than "it's new". Which is what I'd call piss poor an argument. Toning down scarab damage would be a stupid compromise. What made the Reaver interesting was it's high risk-high reward nature. A Reaver that always hits but can't 1-shot a giant clump of workers just isn't nearly as exciting. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
You really voted 2 because like most carebears around here you are unable to handle a negative opinion on anything. So you voted 2. Good job kids. You obviously have not looked up "ad hominem" yet. But, please, don't let me stop you from getting banned. You're doing such a wonderful job of it... | ||
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madsweepslol
161 Posts
On March 03 2010 06:13 internetwarrior wrote: You really voted 2 because like most carebears around here you are unable to handle a negative opinion on anything. So you voted 2. Good job kids. If he had simply said he didn't like the colossus that would have been that, but he didn't, he insulted people who may like the colossus. | ||
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internetwarrior
32 Posts
effective change. I enjoy the Colossus because I think its ability to scale cliffs I hear the shuttles had a really hard time getting over cliffs. and overall impact against light ground units sways the way my opponent will approach how they both defend themselves and attack me. A big change/improvement over reavers which were really ineffective against light ground units. On top of that, the fact that it can be hit by air-to-air units means that I must be mindful of exactly what I bring out with it. Much unlike shuttles who were completely immune to AA. put forth a little more effort in the OP next time and I think you'll find you get both a lot more respect, and useful debate. Honestly I don't see the useful debate happening with people who can't even admit that unlike the Reaver, the Colossus is a very unoriginal unit design wise, and that while it retains some characteristics of the Reaver (AOE damage, same tier/building reqs, expensive) it is also much less of a glass cannon and therefore much less interesting or tension-inducing than the colossus. The few intelligent people on this thread have explained it very well actually, and it seems the others just want something new no matter how better or worse it is. Personally I'm not excited about SC2 just because it's SC2 and there are OMGNEW units, I'm hoping it can come close to the first in terms of quality of gameplay and originality. Which doesn't seem to be a concern with units like the Colossus being both less interesting and original. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
Honestly I don't see the useful debate happening with people who can't even admit that unlike the Reaver, the Colossus is a very unoriginal unit design wise, and that while it retains some characteristics of the Reaver (AOE damage, same tier/building reqs, expensive) it is also much less of a glass cannon and therefore much less interesting or tension-inducing than the colossus. The few intelligent people on this thread have explained it very well actually, and it seems the others just want something new no matter how better or worse it is. So you can't see a useful debate happening with people who disagree with you. Wonderful. Also, please read my post above. | ||
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Thegilaboy
United States2018 Posts
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789
United States959 Posts
I personally like the unit gameplay wise. The cliff walking can be interesting for micro in battles if a nearby cliff is available to exploit. While the colossus isn't anywhere near as vunerable as the reaver (you pay for its durability in resources ... it is much more expensive than a reaver) you still have to pay attention to positioning and protecting it. There are a lot of units that can pick it off relatively quickly (like vikings) and while not as slow as a reaver, they are still slow enough to be vulnerable. Positioning is also important to optimize its damage. Basically ... I think it is an interesting gameplay unit, not just an "a walk for the noobs" unit. They can be used that way, but you can make them MUCH more effective through good control ... I dunno kinda like ... a reaver. It's fine if you don't like it, but stop acting like a child and pretending your opinions are facts. It isn't having a negative view on something that's gotten you banned; it is the trollish manner you present your "arguments." PS ... The colossus has 4 legs not 3. A lot of the concept artwork has 3 ... but the model has four. You may want to work on your counting. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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madsweepslol
161 Posts
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Thegilaboy
United States2018 Posts
On March 03 2010 06:32 madsweepslol wrote: well said, 789 Agreed, 789 nailed it | ||
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ZerglingShepherd
Canada99 Posts
The colossus is not without merit. As other partially-blind. clearly 12-year old people have already pointed out, the colossus' ability to walk cliffs, do line damage (hey, that's more original than AoE explosions!), and susceptibility to air attack all contribute to creating a balance of strength and weakness that can lead to interesting tactical situations. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On March 03 2010 06:23 internetwarrior wrote: I hear the shuttles had a really hard time getting over cliffs. Because shuttles just come automatically once you get a reaver right? And because Colossi can travel over literally anything like shuttles can right? Show nested quote + and overall impact against light ground units sways the way my opponent will approach how they both defend themselves and attack me. A big change/improvement over reavers which were really ineffective against light ground units. Reavers were really effective against high armored units too like ultras. Colossi aren't all that good against ultras, and tanks etc. Show nested quote + On top of that, the fact that it can be hit by air-to-air units means that I must be mindful of exactly what I bring out with it. Much unlike shuttles who were completely immune to AA. Because shuttles just come automatically when you build a reaver right? Or because a reaver can shoot while it's in a shuttle. Or because a reaver can totally get attacked by AA when it's outside the shuttle also right? The colossus, isn't just a "less original more noob friendly" version of the reaver. It's a completely different unit which has some interesting mechanics. | ||
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
Having said that, I personally really like the Colossus and not beacuse it is a new unit. Like the Reaver, it has a lot of personality and charm for a robotic unit. It twitches and twists it`s head in a really cute manner and responds with very unique sounds. Ultimately, I think that the Reaver's contradicting nature of being an almost adorable-looking weapon of destruction was one of the traits that made it so unique and the Colossus fits this perfectly. Also, while the Colossus does not have the same high-risk high-reward nature of the Reaver, it`s ability to travel across cliffs is a very unique gameplay trait that has interesting gameplay implications and which can be used for a variety of tasks (such as scouting and harassment). It also makes the Colossus a lot more useful on it`s own compared to the Reaver. Overall, the Colossus stands out (quite literally ) both in terms of it`s design as well as gameplay. So while I will miss the Reaver, I still think the Colossus is a great addition to StarCraft II and a nice homage to one of the founding fathers of the science-fiction genre. | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
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nimbim
Germany985 Posts
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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Gedrah
465 Posts
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
![]() In sc2 reavers would be OP because of the new scarab AI they'd have to implement.. maybe. | ||
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Sad[Panda]
United States458 Posts
On March 03 2010 06:13 internetwarrior wrote: You really voted 2 because like most carebears around here you are unable to handle a negative opinion on anything. So you voted 2. Good job kids. Almost every post ive seen you do is picking at someones character or what you infer is their personal intellect instead of beating around the bush and telling people that they are wrong or trying to just down the robo tripod science fiction icon, its quite obnoxious. How about you give us some REAL reasoning other than nostalgia and an obvious biased i want original sc again opinion SC2 is a different game and imo the reaver really doesn't fit well with what ive seen as in the gameflow the reaver has always been slow but can inflict heavy damage, but in SC2 it seems as battles are very quick and decisive due to the heavy hardcounters in the game and something as slow moving and slow firing as a reaver in my opinion doesn't fit so well with the battle style I couldn't imagine a reaver firing very many shots. Not saying the reaver couldn't be tweaked to fire faster for less damage but thats essentially messing with the reaver lore and would be a weird change. | ||
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MeruFM
United States167 Posts
Should people really be addressing this guy seriously? ![]() I do like reaver more than colossus. It was a high risk high reward system which made those moments exciting. It still seems okay though, I remember watching the game where Yellow was doing similar harass. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
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O_OBlue
United States7 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
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Tiamat
United States498 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113524 I seriously want to know. | ||
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StorrZerg
United States13919 Posts
On March 04 2010 05:32 Tiamat wrote: Again someone please tell me why this post has not been locked but mine was? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113524 I seriously want to know. there is a thread for asking those kinds of questions... use the search bar | ||
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Thegilaboy
United States2018 Posts
On March 04 2010 05:32 Tiamat wrote: Again someone please tell me why this post has not been locked but mine was? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113524 I seriously want to know. Well the guy got banned, so I'd say that's probably worse off than the thread being closed, but yeah this thread should be locked | ||
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Sayorain
5 Posts
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/kg0wk/am_i_the_only_one_that_likes_colossi_over_reavers/ Aside from the trolls and haters with up/downvotes, I pretty much firmly believe that reavers were honestly just not suited/adapted to starcraft 2's gameplay mechanics. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45541 Posts
lol at OP Everyone should click the Colossus option on the poll just to make it look even funnier... | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On September 15 2011 12:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I assume this is another recently-reopened-by-a-mod-because-it's-hilarious thread? lol at OP Everyone should click the Colossus option on the poll just to make it look even funnier... I already did ^__^ | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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Delay559
France89 Posts
On September 15 2011 12:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I assume this is another recently-reopened-by-a-mod-because-it's-hilarious thread? lol at OP Everyone should click the Colossus option on the poll just to make it look even funnier... +1 | ||
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Sayorain
5 Posts
On September 15 2011 12:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I assume this is another recently-reopened-by-a-mod-because-it's-hilarious thread? lol at OP Everyone should click the Colossus option on the poll just to make it look even funnier... I wasn't aware this was locked previously, since I was searching for a topic that was regarding about Reavers vs Colossi mechanics in SC2. And.. because of morons in reddit. Please forgive me if i'm bring the wrong intentions to this thread. This is basically my whole response with full seriousness why I just find colossi a lot more versatile + Show Spoiler + However, there are a lot of things that colossi introduced in protoss technology that reavers honestly cannot replicate. Mainly, the colossi is able to directly attack armies regardless of height that a reaver cannot do without exposing it immediate death. Since Starcraft 2's new introduction with improved elevated terrain gameplay (such as reaper harass, proxy pylon, blink stalker, aerial vision adavantage especially with terran), Colossi play honestly makes it more useful for various types of strategy. While indeed Starcraft 2 isn't the type of game for unique strategies and relies more on timing, the changes and variability of the maps honestly cannot make reavers feasible. Going back to my statement with height differences, a low ground colossi can attack high ground units, and can attack units in areas where low ground cannot move up or attack without drops nor aerial vision. A reaver simply cannot do that. Theoretically it would definitely be the same thing. However, a reaver simply cannot have the same versatility as a colossi, simply because it is a lot more well-defended than using a reaver + shuttle combo. In addition, the base issue still lies on the reavers capability in being able to inflict the same amount of DPS as would a colossi. Forgive me if I don't know much to SCBW, but a lot of attacks and retreating now focuses on being mobile and agile, mainly via kiting with range units, or stalling time. As far as I know, Colossi are able to kite, retreat to high ground, and safely inflict more damage without harm (only if there is no aerial vision). Along with sentries, a colossi can either safely snipe behind blocked attackers and buy more time, or during PvP, a colossi can break a FF and continue the pursuit with the rest of the army and possibly end the game. With reavers (we will assume that the reavers are not massive still), a lot of time is spent on dropping a reaver and picking up a reaver while attacking. Because SC2 focuses almost entirely on timing, a lot of time is potentially wasted due to such micro. And due to the examples I mentioned with a colossi, a reaver simply cannot perform the same actions as a colossi would. Although the DPS is highly debatable, a reaver attacks about the same speed as a siege tank, and it also requires the scarab to take additional time to travel and explode on the said target. Since shuttle + reaver is how it makes it versatile, would it not be the same for the opponents to do the same with units similar to reavers, such as a medivac picking up exposed units like seige tanks? And we even haven't factored in other SC2 mechanics as well, such as immortals and potentially scarabs being shot down with PDDs. | ||
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
On September 15 2011 12:04 Sayorain wrote: I'm sorry to bump this, but I tried bringing up a "debate" on reddit regarding to colossi vs reaver. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/kg0wk/am_i_the_only_one_that_likes_colossi_over_reavers/ Aside from the trolls and haters with up/downvotes, I pretty much firmly believe that reavers were honestly just not suited/adapted to starcraft 2's gameplay mechanics. your argument is pointless because they would improve the ai. it would in the end probably reduce some of the flair of the reaver but its core design would be the same and that design is significantly more interesting to me than the colossi and yes, i voted colossi even though reaver is superior because this is a troll thread | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
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Sayorain
5 Posts
On September 15 2011 12:14 Herculix wrote: Show nested quote + On September 15 2011 12:04 Sayorain wrote: I'm sorry to bump this, but I tried bringing up a "debate" on reddit regarding to colossi vs reaver. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/kg0wk/am_i_the_only_one_that_likes_colossi_over_reavers/ Aside from the trolls and haters with up/downvotes, I pretty much firmly believe that reavers were honestly just not suited/adapted to starcraft 2's gameplay mechanics. your argument is pointless because they would improve the ai. it would in the end probably reduce some of the flair of the reaver but its core design would be the same and that design is significantly more interesting to me than the colossi and yes, i voted colossi even though reaver is superior because this is a troll thread But what about AI though? Even if the scarab was a lot "smarter," it still suffers from said issues such as not reaching the target at all due to unit clumping and choke points (and there are definitely a lot of choke points in SC2 where Reavers simply cannot attack well enough). As for aesthetics, I really can't say much input but semi-agree. | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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