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Same thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108326
On December 23 2009 09:15 Ababmer wrote:
Here is problem, because the majority of people who buy the game (the soon to be users) do not like to play old fashioned gameplay macro like in starcraft.
Do you have any statistics to prove this? Because from what I understand the millions of people that already play starcraft regularly do enjoy the required skill spread to play well. You're coming to a board that idolizes the best players in the game and telling us your opinion as a casual or 'soon to be' user.
What kind of reception do you expect when you try to impress the types of skill tests you personally prefer on a community that has already made it clear that the mechanical test of unit control is appealing to them?
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Here is problem, because the majority of people who buy the game (the soon to be users) do not like to play old fashioned gameplay macro like in starcraft. They do not want to be click click click for no reason. Blizzard is making a squeal and it must be innovative, they must also make the game for the majority of sales (that is people who do not enjoy the click click). So by keeping it like starcraft in respect to APM focus and archaic interface options, they are not making game user friendly.
You're making it sound like Starcraft is going to be centralized about Macro in SC2, which is already a fallacy and an assumption. Boxer rarely used a macro style game when the first one came out. And even now, there's an abundance of micro-intensive games in Starcraft, whether you be on the pro or foreign level.
Games evolve, and Starcraft is no different. Yes, the game is focused a lot on macro, but what game isn't? You make it sound like things like pumping out units should be an automated feature and micro-intensive commands like retreating in an intelligent fashion should also be automated.
Ever heard of splitting up your army and then moving out in two different directions? Retreating that's automated cancels that out completely...unless you want to add a command for that too.
Yes, but my point is if you allow technology and innovation to take over small things like retreating then player could focus on bigger things like actual strategy of battles. If we allow this then new, more fun ways to access disparitty between good or bad player would emerge.
You do not allow blizzard to bloom their innovations in this respect.
If it's such a small thing, then innovation will happen regardless. Great things happen on a daily basis BECAUSE we have these small things that require actual player input. Things like marine vs. lurker micro or mutalisk micro is possible BECAUSE we don't have automated commands and it's a free game interface that allows the player to do almost whatever he wants.
If I recall correctly, there was a Pimpest Plays by iloveoov, where he split 3 control groups of marines and beautifully avoided a bunch of lurker spikes while losing very few marines of his own. If you had a mass retreat effect, wouldn't you be canceling out such innovations?
Sorry, but i agree to disagree here.
Distinction can still be found via other means, hard interface and unforgiving archaic methods of control is not prerequisite for differentiation in games, you must learn that.
Unforgiving archaic methods of control? Who said anything about being a prerequisite? Distinction is again, not built from automation, but from ingenuity. Your point is completely counter intuitive because you rule out any form of distinction when you make things automated and robotic.
Robots and AIs can't accomplish anything distinctive unless you TELL them to. And that's why Starcraft was brilliant. Because you had amazing sources of play coming from what players were telling their units to do.
Plaguing vessels then muta-sniping all of them. Wraith micro. Vutlure micro. Dragoon micro. All of these came because we don't have automated commands and automated attack patterns that disregard human control. When the human mind is free to do what it wants to do in a game atmosphere then that's when games become more powerful.
People should be complaining about things that CAN'T be done in game rather then what things CAN already be done.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 23 2009 09:24 Ababmer wrote:
TheYango.
Your post i quoted was not relevant to topic, but your other one was.
Please keep this on topic next time thank you.
You failed to respond to my original post in the thread, along with Tropics, who made the same point. Never mind your belief that the interface should be made easier to handle. I'm not even arguing with you on that because that will go nowhere. You still haven't addressed the statement that, without specific game mechanics backing up the retreat option, it does nothing to make the interface easier to handle.
Retreating in its current form takes a right click. If you added a button to do it, it would take a button press, Both are one action. Having that button there doesn't make it any easier or harder to control your army. It's just wasted dev time adding a feature that doesn't change how the game plays.
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fall back, to where o.0? you got many expos, many positional regions etc.etc., how can AI know where exactly at the point in time do u want to retreat to. Anyway, you can always have one aditional hotkey (i.e. 0) with all your units hotkey'ed, and when u want to retreat, u just click it away.
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On December 23 2009 09:26 Ababmer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2009 09:23 yhnmk wrote:
we already have fucking auto cast, mbs, auto mine, why the fuck should we have auto retreat. Auto build order too now, just compute what you fucking want before the game starts? Hey I know, just let a comp play for you with your strategies, better decides whos the "gooder" strategical master, non of that newb-bashing-elitist "playing the game" problems anymore. Just sit back, take a nap, and see what the fuck happens. Have you ever played counter strike? It is more popular e-sport than starcraft and it does not rely on old interface and hindering ui features to distinguish between player skill Distinction can still be found via other means, hard interface and unforgiving archaic methods of control is not prerequisite for differentiation in games. There are other ways to access player skill my friend. cs is fps...its fucking move, point, click. Its a simplistic game, theres no "archaic" features in fps that were removed to create cs, its just a barebone, simplistic game. That has no baring on starcraft, it isnt relevant at all, soon-to-be-banned-troll.
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On December 23 2009 09:31 Ababmer wrote:
I am sorry but the audience that will provide blizzard the most money is the mainstream audience, they are majority and you hardcore are minority.
The majority of sales will be people who play dawn of war 2, people who like embpire total war, FPshooters with fast paced easy action. Blizzards target audience does not want such intense macro features, they are used to easy to learn hard to master, not hard to learn and hard to master.
You think that sc2 will sell more than 50 million copies outside of Korea? Possibly, even probably. But you're just offering this as some kind of omen. Whether or not the primary audience will change doesn't alter the disagreement with your original post. You think that a retreat command should be implemented and then point out that the community will become casualized. How is this convincing us that retreat commands are a good thing?
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haha counterstrike, the opposite of strategy, just who can click faster / aim at a pixel of light between two doorframes, I saw the CS matches at wcg, it was retarded. Your argument is shaky at best.
Are you forgetting that the "other means" still exist ALONG with the hard physical requirement, sports are exciting because people are doing things we can't. Even with all the mechanical requirement, pros still do awesome stuff.
I don't see why you made this thread without doing any research on the much-simplified sc2 interface. You want bases to autobuild too ? it's only 1click to make a worker mine, 3 clicks for a building, 2 to make a unit (3 with warpin \o/),2 to give a command, how can you get simpler than that ?
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I am sorry but the audience that will provide blizzard the most money is the mainstream audience, they are majority and you hardcore are minority.
The majority of sales will be people who play dawn of war 2, people who like embpire total war, FPshooters with fast paced easy action. Blizzards target audience does not want such intense macro features, they are used to easy to learn hard to master, not hard to learn and hard to master.
Da fuck?!
Ok....so first off, there are a couple of "no-no's" on your post.
ONE: A LOT of people on this site are ALSO mainstream gamers. They play other games. They've played Dawn of War, they've played Empire Total War, they've played Counterstrike. Don't call the other people on this board non-mainstream members, because they are.
TWO: What do you mean by "hardcore"? You make it sound like we're CRAZY good because I just used a bunch of big words that fucked up your entire case. Well, guess what? A LOT of us aren't that good. I'm D/D+ on ICCup and I've never gotten that great at the game 'til recently. Don't think that we're all like....A+ Korean status, but we still respect the game for what it is.
THREE: So....Blizzard is supposed to cop out and make it a fucking easy done deal? That's simply retarded. Things like Micro and Macro ARE NOT hard to learn if you take the time to learn. Gamers should be ashamed of themselves when they try to get a game that's so-called "easy to learn".
Yeah, games should be fun, but the reason why games like Halo had a setting called "LEGENDARY" was because some people are called NOOBIES while the others are called "MEN".
Plus, you just disregarded everything that I said and just decided to say "Well...*stutter*....Blizzard goes for some other audience you "piece of fucking shit" (<-- Day[9]'s quote *fan girl squeal*)"
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^ /thread. Ababmer stop thinking you know Blizzard's target audience better than they do. Or how to make a game better. Auto-retreat accomplishes nothing that you can't do in the exact same amount of time with hotkeys and clicking on the minimap. You don't want to "click-click-click", fine, then don't, but don't come here saying the game will suck because things don't happen without user input.
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op is really clutching at straws, sc has sold around 12million copies, don't even mention all the pirated copies and the fans that don't play.
sc2 is going to be big, indeed there is a resurgence is more difficult games now, because the gamers are bored of stuff that takes no effort. You're trying to quantify "fun" and that just doesn't work in a serious discussion.
Anyway this is all moot, just OPEN YOUR EYES, read the BLIZZARD INFORMATION (50+ pages of questions answered), watch the BATTLE REPORTS (and david kim's youtube), does this game really look like it's going to cater (competitively, I don't care how bad you are in your own time) to people that can't beat 60apm ?
So many gm informative posts in this thread and you are ignoring them , then accusing us of being elitist. Boggles the mind, personally I doubt I could beat D- (my macro/multi-task skills are lacking), but I love watching.
Do you think sc2 would be fun to watch with 60apm ? i'd make a cup of tea and be back in time for the first rax...
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lol I hated this about DoW2 actually... It makes the "dance" that occurs so much more shallow... imo
not to mention that there is already a fallback feature, it's called right click.
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On December 23 2009 09:53 Ababmer wrote:Blizzard should include a retreat feature because it will provide more enjoyment for the majority. It will make the game easier for the majority who buy it and it will provide happy for greater good. That is my point sorry you can not see straight away.
I don't think that a game that caters to more people is necessarily a better game. My personal enjoyment of the game would decrease with this feature, yours would apparently increase. There's no real discussion to be had about this.
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Blizzard should include a retreat feature because it will provide more enjoyment for the majority. That is my point sorry i cant remember specific post that ask
Ok, since that's your ONLY point, I will address that and that only.
You say more enjoyment.............
...
...
The reason why I placed so many dots was because I just have to ask "Are you for rela?" Because that makes NO sense whatsoever. Why would adding something that you have NO control over make it anymore fun?
Second of all, you stereotype everyone on Teamliquid by saying we LOVE archaic features (whatever the fuck that means), You make it sound like we're old-school, and that the majority of people DON'T like archaic features (still don't know what the fuck it is).
I'm just going to assume you're a noob at Starcraft and you're complaining because C+/B-/B player transitions into SC2 is just going to rape the shit out of most players, and will do whatever it takes to level a growing playing field.
Third, no....harder difficulties isn't a justification for manhood and I almost laughed while reading that. But essentially, the point is this. Why would you play anything that had no value or challenge? Again, the point remains unopposed: retreating automated functions will ONLY make the game easier and less fun.
There is no ENJOYMENT of watching your troops running from a battle because you clicked a button. It's just this going through you're mind ("Well.....my AI was stupid and ran into a bunch of enemy units on the way back and got slaughtered.....fuck.")
Fourth....the inserted "stutter" between asterisks only served to symbolize the lack of clarity and logic and....intelligence in the post because despite your repeated use of the word "archaic" which could've replaced by the word "old-school" there was no fathomable logic to your point, so I might as well just disregard the entire thing because it made absolutely no sense.
Again, I'm going to say this over and over again. Enjoyment comes out of being able to control something, not NOT being able to control something.
*sigh* You haven't even touched the CRUX of the arguments.
EDIT: Enjoy the LOOK of the game?
Well....might as well not play and just watch the better people then.
Look, sorry about the blasphemous language...but when you're disregarding half of the arguments...then it becomes a serious problem and dropped arguments are likely to be picked on.
You were warned.
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Can someone just ban this troll already.
On December 23 2009 09:23 yhnmk wrote:
we already have fucking auto cast, mbs, auto mine, why the fuck should we have auto retreat. Auto build order too now, just compute what you fucking want before the game starts? Hey I know, just let a comp play for you with your strategies, better decides whos the "gooder" strategical master, non of that newb-bashing-elitist "playing the game" problems anymore. Just sit back, take a nap, and see what the fuck happens.
If you're gonna go off on a rant atleast use correct information
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EPT
