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I don't understand the antipathy against the cheese tactics.
When it comes to professional competition, everything is on the table. EVERYTHING that is not specifically regulated.
That's why Boxer used allied mines until kespa banned it, that's why ear-crafting was used until they got the sound-proof booths, and that's why chat mind games were used until chatting was banned.
Human history is WRITTEN by cheesers who used psychology, mind games, strategy and tactics to victor over the opponent.
Fantasy and his coaches exploited JD's weakness and they get the full credit for it.
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Fantasy skeets over Jaedong and Oz
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On August 09 2009 06:22 Kyo Yuy wrote:YES FANTASY #2 <3. I hope Fantasy gets #1 on the Kespa rank some day. As I've stated before, I just love watching Fantasy play :D
Actually Fantasy and Bisu are tied for #1 ELO rank 
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On August 09 2009 08:26 QuakerOats wrote:SKT1 hasn't won an OSL in a long time. Let them be happy with this proleague victory and claim that Jaedong sucks with their witty sarcasm all they want.
Please point out to me how anything I said here was witty sarcasm:
Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 06:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 09 2009 06:04 Kyo Yuy wrote:On August 09 2009 05:57 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 09 2009 05:53 Kyo Yuy wrote:On August 09 2009 04:09 sGa.Mac wrote:
JaeDong next Bonjwa.
Yeah right. Jaedong is on track to enter the semis of both the OSL and the MSL. Two BO5s. Featuring Jaedong, the player who is known to be an absolute monster in BO5s. Furthermore, if he wins these two he will have ZvZ to look forward to in the finals. ...I wouldn't count him out just yet. CJ didn't win Proleague at all during the year that Savior was called a Bonjwa. Except that Savior was still completely dominating, and when he went up against someone, everyone expected and knew he would win. Jaedong isn't even CLOSE to that. He's dropped multiple games against the likes of Orion and Hyuk, and he definitely isn't favored and heavily expected to win against the likes of Flash, Bisu, and Fantasy. I feel that we may see some kind of hiatus from Jaedong soon. It seems that he's just burning out way too much. I am not saying Jaedong is a bonjwa right this moment. But Jaedong has the possibility of winning TWO individual Starleagues in the SAME SEASON. Of course, right now I can definitely see him potentially losing to Fantasy and even to Iris. But if he manages to conquer both of them and then have 3:0 ZvZ finals in both Starleagues, even I would be hard pressed to argue with his results. How long has it been, exactly, since a player won both the MSL and the OSL in the same season? It's not just a question of golds. It's a question of dominance. Jaedong doesn't show anywhere near the level of dominance over the entire scene that any of the 4 Bonjwas showed. The dominance issue is a matter of opinion. My response to the first post I quoted was to challenge the implication that no one would ever have another bonjwa dispute again. If Jaedong manages to win the OSL and the MSL, there WILL be people who feel Jaedong should be called a bonjwa. And there are people who will challenge that by referring to his 3 consecutive losses in the PL Grand Finals. My stance is not that Jaedong IS or DEFINITELY WILL BE bonjwa, but that the dispute is far from over.
I just don't like rabid fanboys on either side of the coin. I'm an SKT1 fan, but I don't say Jaedong sucks. But Jaedong lost, and trying to justify his losses to cheese, when one of the three games WAS NOT CHEESE and the other one involved Jaedong BEATING the cheese, is just as bad as the rabid Bisu fanboys who say Bisu would've won the GOM Special Match if he had held his ramp properly.
The "what ifs" and the "if only" and the theorycrafting to justify the losses just sickens me. Bisu lost the GOM Special Match fair and square, the same way Jaedong lost all three of his matches fair and square.
Theorycrafting is okay in making predictions, but blind fanboyism and using biased theorycrafting to say "WELL HE WOULD HAVE WON IF BLAH BLAH BLAH" is just retarded. I don't care which player it is. Be it Bisu, Flash, Jaedong, Fantasy, Savior, whoever. IF THE PLAYER LOST HE LOST, ACCEPT IT.
And let that be said of the OSL Semi Finals too. If Fantasy loses, he loses and that's that. If Fantasy triple bunker rushes Jaedong and wins 3:0, HE WON, PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION. And if Jaedong triple 4pools Fantasy, OH WELL, FANTASY LOST IT SUCKS BUT HE LOST.
Seriously, accept what happened and move on. I had to accept Bisu getting cheesed out of the OSL even though I didn't like it, and I don't see what's so hard about accepting that Jaedong going 0/3 in Proleague.
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On August 09 2009 08:51 Ace wrote:
If you have to argue whether someone is a Bonjwa - he isn't. End of discussion. When Savior was Bonjwa there was no discussion, everyone understood he just "is". The arguments you guys are making are nonsense. Just stop.
BS Reasoning. When objective people argue about it-he isn't. It's not up to whether TL argues or not, it's up to the Korean community.
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now you know they aren't being objective. That's the entire problem with their arguments. "Jaedong got cheesed so it doesn't count!" - lol?
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That's why I said TL won't be the ones to decide this. A lot of the new posters aren't objective.
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Really disapointed, I wanted Bisu vs Jaedong super ace SO BAD.
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On August 09 2009 08:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 08:51 Ace wrote:
If you have to argue whether someone is a Bonjwa - he isn't. End of discussion. When Savior was Bonjwa there was no discussion, everyone understood he just "is". The arguments you guys are making are nonsense. Just stop. BS Reasoning. When objective people argue about it-he isn't. It's not up to whether TL argues or not, it's up to the Korean community.
It's not really "up to" anyone. It's an opinion really. There's no global standard for a Bonjwa and nobody is actually given a medal or certificate for being called it by a majority of fans.
Even calling Savior a bonjwa is an opinion. A rational opinion given his dominance in 2006, but still an opinion.
And actually there were people who called Savior a "banjwa" - i.e. he was only considered half dominant by some because he spent a year dominating the MSL and didn't even make the OSL until Shinhan 3.
While I don't necessarily side with those people, I am just pointing out that there WAS debate about Savior, even if it was in an EXTREMELY small minority. Because again, it's really an opinion, it's not a fact.
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I thought most Korean posters on this site agreed that it was up to the Korean community. That's what I always see MrHoon saying.
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On August 09 2009 09:06 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I thought most Korean posters on this site agreed that it was up to the Korean community. That's what I always see MrHoon saying.
It's kinda like saying "George W Bush was a horrible President." No matter how many facts, statistics, polls, etc. are used to justify this point, the point is still an opinion.
And I agree with that point, but the issue is that "horrible" is a qualitative word and no matter how much data is thrown to support it, it's still an opinion.
I'm not trying to get into a discussion of politics, just trying to try to use an example to explain why it's ultimately an opinion no matter what.
Unless there is a clear, cut result based criteria for determining a Bonjwa (e.g. [x] number of league titles in [y] months, [z] percentage win rate in [n] time period, etc.) it's an opinion.
I mean, how do you MEASURE "dominance"? Everyone has a different opinion of what a dominant player is. Unless there are clear standards established for that, it really is a matter of opinion.
I doubt the entire population of South Korea all unanimously labeled Savior as Bonjwa. I'm sure even in the Korean scene it's based on how overwhelming the opinion is, but I sincerely doubt there is ever unanimous consensus on anything.
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On August 09 2009 08:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 08:51 Ace wrote:
If you have to argue whether someone is a Bonjwa - he isn't. End of discussion. When Savior was Bonjwa there was no discussion, everyone understood he just "is". The arguments you guys are making are nonsense. Just stop. BS Reasoning. When objective people argue about it-he isn't. It's not up to whether TL argues or not, it's up to the Korean community.
and the biggest kor SC communities (DCinside and fomos) seems to agree there will be no 5th bonjwa due to various reasons.
1. no single dominating player present since savior's decline.
2. possible bonjwa candidates like bisu and jd does not have strong presence like previous bonjwas did and they're all prone to upset loss quite often.
3. overall improved competition prevents new bonjwa candidates from really dominating the scene. (with already strong appearances such as fantasy, effort, flash, stork, skyhigh, iris and etc)
especially after bisu's defeat against iris, and jd's 0-3 loss in the pl final, korean communities are doubtful of the whole idea of 5th bonjwa. it is agreed among them even if jd wins both msl and osl, he will not be a bonjwa due to lack of the 'dominating presence'.
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Okay, I'll just accept that if he wins both the OSL and MSL, he can be the most successful and best zerg of all time.
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On August 09 2009 09:20 gaggar wrote:
3. overall improved competition prevents new bonjwa candidates from really dominating the scene. (with already strong appearances such as fantasy, effort, flash, stork, skyhigh, iris and etc)
especially after bisu's defeat against iris, and jd's 0-3 loss in the pl final, korean communities are doubtful of the whole idea of 5th bonjwa. it is agreed among them even if jd wins both msl and osl, he will not be a bonjwa due to lack of the 'dominating presence'.
Indeed. Overall competition has improved. There are so many good players that it's really difficult for one of them to stand out by a wide margin. A Bonjwa needs to stand out like Usain Bolt stands out in sprinting.
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I don't even know who you people are arguing with anymore. I don't think anyone except the most extreme fanboys consider Jaedong bonjwa right now. And at the same it's stupid to think that these 3 losses forever put him out of contention or something, or even definitively state that JD is not the best player right now, especially because one game was a BO loss and one game a specially-prepared sniper build.
Anyway, I'm definitely looking forward to fantasy vs. Jaedong in the OSL. I bet JD will be practicing like hell against bunker rushes.
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On August 09 2009 09:32 QuakerOats wrote:I don't even know who you people are arguing with anymore. I don't think anyone except the most extreme fanboys consider Jaedong bonjwa right now. And at the same it's stupid to think that these 3 losses forever put him out of contention or something, or even definitively state that JD is not the best player right now, especially because one game was a BO loss and one game a specially-prepared sniper build. Anyway, I'm definitely looking forward to fantasy vs. Jaedong in the OSL. I bet JD will be practicing like hell against bunker rushes.
This is quite possibly one of the best posts I've read in this thread thus far.
I'm also very excited for Fantasy vs. Jaedong. I think no matter who wins we're in for some awesome games.
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5 pool is good against 5 rax right? Because they barracks is outside of their base.
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On August 09 2009 07:47 kazokun wrote:
I think you guys are all missing the point, we no longer have to listen to Metallica play before every game anymore. I think everyone, skt1 and hwaseung fan alike, can appreciate this.
i have been waiting for the grand finals to come for a fucking year for this very reason, i didnt even give a shit who won as long as OGN would just stop playing The End of the Line
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United States10328 Posts
oh wow. oh wow. jaedong
but on a completely unrelated note
are there threads about the Event Match?
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Bisu looks like he sells furniture when he wore that outfit.
Anyways, back to your arguing!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4715/fantaskeet.gif)
