Savior's prediction comes true, inspired by CJ's advancement earlier in the day. Savior 2-1. Too bad that they don't play more games in the playoffs of this league, but who am I to complain, this tourney has been the best thing since sliced bread.
SAVIOR VS NADA FINALS?!?!?! The dream MSL everyone has wanted for 2 seasons has come trueeeeeeeeee (sort of). Too bad it's bo3 only and Savior is preoccupied with other stuff as well. Ma Jae Yoon hwaitinggggggg!
2 legends duke it out will Nada prevail like in the 3rd shinhan bank starleague or will be fall like the rest in the shinhan masters? This is the match of the century
im glad the finals came down to the two most active players. shouldnt be any other way. i cant root for either. salty that oov pussed out and also that tushin was not invitied. just hoping for epic thirllz with this final
Today has potential to be an absolutely amazing day of StarCraft. Let's go CJ and Savior! Can't really comment on Effort vs Iris, as I like both players a lot.
On July 26 2009 03:34 geegee1 wrote: 2 legends duke it out will Nada prevail like in the 3rd shinhan bank starleague or will be fall like the rest in the shinhan masters? This is the match of the century
BJONWA! This has been such an awesome league... very fun.. better than Osl/msl (for me). Only if oov wasnt sick it would be even better. Lets go Maestro take another title and more money with you! Destroy nada once again =D
it sucks to see nada looking downtrodden and tired. it sucks to see savior appear defeated and broken. i would hope that the player who wins this series uses the win to reignite his career.
LEE YUN YEOL I BELIEVE 100%! You've made it to another finals - 7 years of exceeding everyone's expectations but your own. Here's to another championship... and FUCK the haters!
-Right now, who are you thinking about the most? >I am thinking about my mom. I think she will be happier than anyone else. My mom always said that Mah Jae Yoon was a fearsome one. She warned me to be cautious of him. However, now I can talk with confidence. I will tell her that Mah Jae Yoon is no longer a feared entity.
- from NaDa interview after he beat savior 3-1 in the ShinHan Masters finals
Can anyone find that thread that hyped up the Shinhan OSL finals between Nada and Savior? I can't find it right now and it is bugging the hell out of me. Most of the pics were filled with "I believe"
Nada is gonna bunker rush in game 1 and SCV rush in game 2 ... Then he's moving to Savior's booth, pointing up his face and laughing like a maniac. Savior will be pissed (duh?) and hence, nail Nada in the face with his keyboard, thus claiming the trophy as now Nada's hospitalised ...
On July 26 2009 17:27 VioleTAK wrote: I actualy would not have voted Heritage in the poll if I knew it would be a Bo3... wth?
I'm thinking they could have made it a bo3 to encourage upsets so we might have seen something crazy like boxer vs yellow finals, or boxer vs savior with boxer getting 2 games.
On July 26 2009 17:27 VioleTAK wrote: I actualy would not have voted Heritage in the poll if I knew it would be a Bo3... wth?
I'm thinking they could have made it a bo3 to encourage upsets so we might have seen something crazy like boxer vs yellow finals, or boxer vs savior with boxer getting 2 games.
Hrmm, 866 people looking forward the most to heritage finals. Only 4 pages of pregame hype? Bandwagoning much? PL finals without a question is the most epic, considering how epic the playoffs are so far.
On July 26 2009 20:15 samachking wrote: Hrmm, 866 people looking forward the most to heritage finals. Only 4 pages of pregame hype? Bandwagoning much? PL finals without a question is the most epic, considering how epic the playoffs are so far.
It's 4AM here in the west coast. This is later than usual.
No, this is not how every day should be. If there are going to be 3 games in one day, two should be simultaneous or one of the games has to suck so no one will care about it.
savior has a lot of lings, but there is no way he could break the ramp. savior also got a hydra den. nada going for a counter push but savior has NO sunken
savior however manages to surround the marines with lings and finish them off, and nada could not kill the natural hatch. nada now chilling in front of saviors nat with mnm/firebats but savior has his first lurkers out.
On July 26 2009 20:50 Manifesto7 wrote: Honestly, with those positions, if Nada gets his expo up I don't think there is much you can do.
Savior could have either
a) forced a CC lift and returned to sandwich Nada's army or
b) Just ran up Nada's ramp the instant the bunkers died
Either response would've won him the game
That's not even taking into account his refusal to sunken early that set him way behind. I don't think that much is wrong with Python, just poor play by Savior (and by Nada unfortunately).
HYDRA PUSH gogogogogo man, he could really have tried to break the defense. now nada has enough goliaths, so savior cannot push over the bridge again. savior getting his third
Savior's Mutas stop mining at the main. Nada pulls a ton of gols, and savior tries to move into NaDa's natural with hydras but is forced back by mines.
Nada refuses to get turrets so savior gets a lot of SCVs with his Mutas.
On July 26 2009 21:42 unionbank wrote: certainly not much hype in this event only 14 pages lelz
it would've gone over 9000 page if it were a boxer vs yellow finals...
Yeah, I love Savior but really that was the whole point of this tournament.
Unfortunately Savior and Nada are just too much better still. They're not the best any more but Savior is definitely still a top 8 Zerg and Nada is around a top 10-15 Terran.
Unfortunately, Nada doesn't seem to have a strong matchup anymore (flashes of TvP greatness against Jangbi notwithstanding). Savior at least is still pretty good at ZvP, and decent at ZvT (no shame in losing to 2009 Canata twice).
On July 26 2009 21:43 gaggar wrote: really? nobody here disappointed by the matches that are essentially out of '05 season?
does everyone here really thinks they're on par to today's level of pro sc scene?
The last game of this series was definitely on par with today's level of pro scene. Nada's micro and Savior's game sense was amazing.
... No.
Umm... yes? I can't remember when i last saw this good d-matrix play from other terrans.
Thats because noone stays on lair for 5 hours and the vessel the energy is all used up to kill defilers/ultras in the late game and cant be afforded to add more hp on your unit when your unit cant even do any damage under swarm :/
On July 26 2009 22:12 Bosu wrote: BO5 would have been nice, but I still enjoyed the entire estars tournament with artosis/ tasteless commentary. All of the games.
the commentary was by far the best thing about the late stages of this tournament
They should have just done like the OSL format or something starting at ro16. If the prize pool is equivalent to an OSL why not just have an OSL? This tournament felt so rushed after the group stages.
why doesn't savior have a gold on his tlpd and nada a silver? This is no different than the GSI or the soel invite tourny [jangbi-jaedong], in terms of official existence as a tourny, and yet they got medals!
gosh I should have really stayed up to watch this live It turned out how I wanted to be, savior winning 2-1. I'm surprised this isnt getting that much attention
On July 26 2009 21:43 gaggar wrote: really? nobody here disappointed by the matches that are essentially out of '05 season?
does everyone here really thinks they're on par to today's level of pro sc scene?
The last game of this series was definitely on par with today's level of pro scene. Nada's micro and Savior's game sense was amazing.
heritage tourney basically proved that they didn't get worse. their skill is roughly about the same as when they were on the top.
it's just that everyone else got better, and have been getting newcomers with much higher average skill.
but that's why it's dissapointing. they're playing the same game as they did back in '05 when everyone else is whizzing by
You have no idea what you're talking about. Savior is infinitely worse than he was 2-3 years ago on an absolute scale. Nada's play was also very disappointing although his is harder to say one way or another.
So yeah these matches were disappointing because Savior used to be so much better (absolutely, not relatively).
I love you Mae Jae Yoon, even if you can only win Special Matches now..hopefully this tournament win will give him some confidence to get outta his super slump
On July 27 2009 01:42 Dazed_Spy wrote: why doesn't savior have a gold on his tlpd and nada a silver? This is no different than the GSI or the soel invite tourny [jangbi-jaedong], in terms of official existence as a tourny, and yet they got medals!
I agree with this only because IIRC Jaedong has a gold for the GOM "Special Match" which was only a single Bo5 for kicks! QAHHGGGGAGAGJDKLG
the best things that happened on day 7 is the casting of artasteless or tastosis or whatever u wanna call it, and their castings with malykriss(thats how u spell it i think) were one of the most entertaining casts i've heard, second only to day9's casting of course...
On July 26 2009 21:43 gaggar wrote: really? nobody here disappointed by the matches that are essentially out of '05 season?
does everyone here really thinks they're on par to today's level of pro sc scene?
The last game of this series was definitely on par with today's level of pro scene. Nada's micro and Savior's game sense was amazing.
heritage tourney basically proved that they didn't get worse. their skill is roughly about the same as when they were on the top.
it's just that everyone else got better, and have been getting newcomers with much higher average skill.
but that's why it's dissapointing. they're playing the same game as they did back in '05 when everyone else is whizzing by
You have no idea what you're talking about. Savior is infinitely worse than he was 2-3 years ago on an absolute scale. Nada's play was also very disappointing although his is harder to say one way or another.
So yeah these matches were disappointing because Savior used to be so much better (absolutely, not relatively).
I have to disagree with both of you. I think even Savior admitted that he is much better now than when he was dominating (someone know when he said that?). SC has changed a lot since those days, and the old stars like MJY just can't improve as quickly as the fresh blood. So, on an absolute scale Savior/Nada are better than ever. On a relative scale, they are worse.
uh actually savior is one of the few examples of a player who has really gotten worse over time
his primary skills were controlling the game flow, making correct life-or-death decisions (this is the #1 skill in ZvT and is based entirely on game understanding), and multitasking. he is significantly worse at all three than he was in his prime, the improved play of other people has no effect on the latter two and the first is entirely tactical in nature
savior has gotten worse, it's more obvious because his mechanics haven't improved very much either, but he really is a poorer sc player now than he was when he was dominant. it's wierd, and it's rare.
its almost like he just gave up on the continual learning process after his 3hatch muta, heavy lair style stopped working. he could have innovated, he could have adjusted, but he didn't.
savior knows what to do but his executions were very bad additionally i have the feeling that as soon as he was beating everybody he got this arrogant style again
I respectfully disagree Mr.FakeSteve... Watching sAviOrs old highlights and games don't show me anyhting I don't think he could do better and faster today. And watching old FPVOD's vs today when they show FP view in the games make me think he is actually multitasking faster these days. I agree that his execution of attacks is maybe less percise than it was before. The units dont seem to all arive at the exact same time with swarms and burrowing... but its hard to tell. I know you've probably watched 10X the Starcraft I have. Either way I had a lot of fun watching this event and I hope that sAviOr continues to improve, or... starts to improve... depending on how you feel about it.
honestly after that loss to bisu (and fbh) he just started losing to scrubs overnight. I highly doubt everyone improved at the same time by a huge margin and somehow savior didnt. You can justify losses to flash, bisu or jaedong by saying "well they've improved a lot more and starcraft has evolved"
You can't use that excuse to justify a loss to fucking chalrenge (and it wasnt even a close game either)
Honestly if you watch his games its very very clear that he slumped and is still continuing to slump a tiny bit (although this is a lot closer than it was before). You can just watch a game from mid-2008 and see all the little things he just no longer does. Its not just that his enemies have gotten better, he played substantially worse.
I feel like Savior, along with Nada, have both burned out. They don't love the game like they used to (I watched an interview with Nada a while back where he actually said that) and it looks like they are ready to retire. Being a pro-SC player takes a huge amount of effort, and it seems like they don't want to give that kind of effort anymore.
Savoir is at a moment in his life where he needs to decide if he wants to be back to being ELITE or just play these type of events. I personally want more of Savior and to see him back in he Unleash the Swarm MODE... Ala Jaedong
Savior's greatest ability was his belief in the greatness of his ability. Once that went everything else went. He tried to dominate like a terran bonjwa, which was basically sitting on the top with a specific style and inviting challenges to it instead of being a zerg and constantly developing new strategies. If Bisu hadn't taken him down someone else (Iris probably, he was so hungry for it) would have.
On July 28 2009 05:14 EvoChamber wrote: Savior's greatest ability was his belief in the greatness of his ability. Once that went everything else went. He tried to dominate like a terran bonjwa, which was basically sitting on the top with a specific style and inviting challenges to it instead of being a zerg and constantly developing new strategies. If Bisu hadn't taken him down someone else (Iris probably, he was so hungry for it) would have.
What? You are saying the greatest zerg in history, the lone zerg bonjwa, didn't play like a zerg and your criticizing him for it? lol, what he did and how he did it worked very very well. If he played like a terran in a monotonous style, then other zergs should definitely try it out for a change, maybe they'd win 3 msl's, royal road an osl, and reach 5 msl finals consecutively. Rather than, like even the best zerg, suffer under wild fluctuations in ability.
Both Savior and Nada have lost ground in the level of their performance. With Savior, I think there is pretty much undisputable evidence and that Fakesteve hit the nail on the head.
With Nada, I first noticed it in his MSL elimination (I hadn't been keeping up with him). When he lost to Horang2 on Heartbreak, Horang's harassment had not been as successful as it needed to be to compensate for his double core hidden DT tech. Plus, Nada's expansion was up at an advantageous timing. When the end of the game was approaching, and the camera panned to Horang's army, it was exactly the slightly diminished force I was expecting. It wasn't a macro monster surprise. It was just a slightly delayed, slightly downsized, normal Protoss army. As the Protoss army approached Nada's defenses, I was confused that the game was about to end in a Protoss victory. That is, I was confused until the camera panned to the Terran. It was bad. Nada had an inexplicably small number of units and was just absolutely steamrolled.
In subsequent matches that I've watched of Nada, I've looked for the same flaw, and it's been there occasionally. We saw it in these games against Savior - anyone who remembers Nada in his prime has to wonder what's happened to his macro. This is the guy whose tvp screen name could have been 1a2a3a and whose lowest apm troughs were comparable to other pro's highest apm spikes. As painful as it is, it's impossible to deny that Nada's loss of enthusiasm for the game is evident in his playing.
There's no denying that the general level of play has improved, but that's certainly not that full explanation for how two players who were well ahead of their time have fallen so far behind the present.
EPT
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