The format is: (W-L for the last 5 matches in that Match Up of Player 1, Overall Win % in that Match Up), Map Statistics for the Match Up, (W-L for the last 5 matches in that Match Up of Player 2, Overall Win % in that Match Up)
Frankly, Outsider isn't the right map for Canata. Mech isn't really a good idea on it, and I don't think Canata's bionic play is good enough to beat Jaedong. The last few times he did Bio, it was basically a 5 tank timing push into Zerg's natural. I highly doubt that Jaedong is going to allow that to happen in this game. I'm actually wondering if Canata will be able to hold off the initial 2 Hatch Mutas that Jaedong is undoubtedly going to do since it's Outsider and all. A 1 week break is enough for Jaedong to rest up and absolutely demolish Canata on this map.
I honestly think that over the past few weeks, we've seen enough of EffOrt's ZvZ to know he's damn good at that match up. He's beaten YellOw[ArnC], Jaedong, and even destroyed type-b for the kicks. All he's been doing this time is playing ZvZ. I'm still worried about Calm though. His recent ZvZ record is impressive, but his matches have been against TheZerg, ZerO, and Juni, not exactly the best ZvZ players out there. Remember that Calm got denied from the OSL 0-2 by HogiL who has a career record of 28% ZvZ, and he also got destroyed 0-2 by HoeJJa (36.36% ZvZ) in the GOM Classic.
After his loss to go.go in the OSL, Bisu has stepped up his PvT and just taken out his rage on Terran players. He first destroyed Leta, then killed Hwasin, and finally took out fantasy 2-0 as vengeance for fantasy's earlier elimination of Bisu from the OSL last season. Now he's facing against the grizzled old veteran Iris, who, yeah has been doing okay recently against Protoss, but he hasn't faced an opponent like Bisu since his match with BeSt.
Really though, I think that the map itself will help Iris fail in this match. Byzantium 3 is 4-1 PvT, not exactly an encouraging statistic for Iris. This is the map that practically shut down fantasy's style of play. I don't see Iris getting out of this one except for cheese.
I so want to just say that ZerO sucks at ZvZ and just leave it at that, but unfortunately, that's only true sometimes. Sometimes, ZerO gets these brilliant flashes of insight in ZvZ and somehow is able to actually win a game. ZerO is actually 2-2 against Kwanro, who seems to share this trait with ZerO. Sometimes, Kwanro gets the match up, sometimes he doesn't. It's just a gamble tonight really.
Canata goes for an 8 rax in his natural and sends one SCV with a few marines to bunker rush Jaedong. Jaedong went for the standard 12 hatch, but lost 4 drones to the 3 marines. Although he destroyed the bunker, his creep colony was denied by his own lings, so his sunken did not finish in time for Canata's vulture. Canata gets a 12 kill vulture and that's pretty much game.
This one I got confused on since I didn't see the opening builds. However, what ended up happening was that EffOrt took his gas later than Calm, and thus he ended behind on gas count and Mutalisk count. EffOrt got around 8 pair of scourge and 3 Mutalisks and went in for an attack, but barely any scourge, if any, landed, and EffOrt's forces were overpowered. EffOrt tries to hold on and delay with Zerglings, but once Calm decides to attack with his Mutalisks, it was all over for EffOrt since he never got Zergling Speed.
Very nice play by Iris here. Bisu opens standard 1 gate goon into Observer build, but what he doesn't know is that Iris is setting up for a devious ploy. Iris builds several marines and a tank. He makes it seem like he's going to just do a FD with a quick expansion. However, Iris pushes out with his second tank and maybe 3 or so vultures. Bisu is unprepared and didn't delay Iris's forces as they moved out, so he was stuck in his natural trying to defend against this 2 fac. His goons get pushed into a corner because of mines, and Iris sneaks a few vultures into Bisu's main that get 8 probe kills before Bisu takes it out. Iris destroys everything at Bisu's natural, including all of Bisu's goons. Bisu taps out soon after.
ZvZ is usually too action packed for a game summary, but I'll give one anyway. Both players opt to go for the 12 pool into expansion, but the difference is that ZerO opts to go Zergling Speed first while Kwanro opts for Lair first. Kwanro doesn't let ZerO's initial lings get into his main base, so he uses his faster Mutalisks to snipe two Overlords of ZerO's. However, Kwanro goes to engage ZerO with no scourge and fewer Mutalisks, so he loses the majority of his Mutalisks. However, that was merely a distraction for about 4 lings to absolutely destroy all of ZerO's drones since all of ZerO's Zerglings had died. ZerO is left with 5 drones, and goes all in with his remaining Mutalisks. He kills all of Kwanro's Mutalisks, but Kwanro is able to get spore colonies up at his natural while ZerO's Lair, Spire, and drones were killed. A very nice game from Kwanro.
I think Zero will take apart Kwanro pretty easily, he showed some really amazing ZvZ last time he was performing well. I'd like to think Calm can beat Effort but...that seems sadly unlikely.
On July 23 2009 13:42 JWD wrote: Go Bisu! After Fantasy, Iris should be no problem...let's just hope KTY can force a straight up game.
Does anyone else remember those games Iris played against Stork in... I think an OSL semi-final. At the time, Stork was rolling, especially against Terran. Absolutely unstoppable.
Iris just blew Stork out 3:0, with a 2-fac timing attack every time. The 2-fac annihilated early expansion, quick tech, every build Stork rolled out that set.
Anyways, I'm saying this because I like Bisu a lot and hope he wins and everything. But I won't be shocked if Iris pulls this one out.
On July 23 2009 13:42 JWD wrote: Go Bisu! After Fantasy, Iris should be no problem...let's just hope KTY can force a straight up game.
Does anyone else remember those games Iris played against Stork in... I think an OSL semi-final. At the time, Stork was rolling, especially against Terran. Absolutely unstoppable.
Iris just blew Stork out 3:0, with a 2-fac timing attack every time. The 2-fac annihilated early expansion, quick tech, every build Stork rolled out that set.
Anyways, I'm saying this because I like Bisu a lot and hope he wins and everything. But I won't be shocked if Iris pulls this one out.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Berserker takes this from Bisu on his homecourt.
Ugh, too many ZvZs. I think the favorites in the first three series should win pretty handily, but the last series is a tossup. Neither player has transcended their ZvZ like JD or Effort (or Yarnc in a way) has to make me feel confident giving giving either one an edge, even if ZerO's been sucking it up lately in ZvZ.
Iris is just so cool, I want Iris to advance. And how cool would it be to have an epic Iris vs Effort match. The sequel to that awesome Iris vs Savior match back in Savior's OSL run. Ahhh, nostalgia ftw.
Iris can definitely showcase good TvZ games imo.
Other than that, I want Effort/Zero to advance. It would be cool if Canata advances, but I doubt it'll happen.
On July 23 2009 14:21 dekuschrub wrote: so wait how is this format work?
are they just playing game 1 of the Bo5?
yeah just the 1st game of each series tonight and then teh rest of series 1 and 2 the next night, and then the rest of the other 2 series' the 3rd night.
damn why do these brackets pair up the players I want to advance. Whatever MSL belongs to Bisu and neither Jaedong nor Effort can do anything about that.
JD > Canata. Unlucky Canata pulled JD in one league and Fantasy in the other. Effort > Calm. Meh whatever. I'd rather have effort play in the semis then calm Bisu > Iris. Iris is awesome but he can have gom. Bisu ain't dropping this msl Zero > Kwanro. I've never liked kwanro much and I've been a fan of zero since I first watched his loki II game. No upsets tonight.
he still is the next zvz jedi, people just like to jump on bandwagons. Someone with a red or a blue name said zero's zvz was highly questionable, so everyone said "yes sah yes it is sah highly questionable sah", ignoring that Zero has always been streaky. That zero, after raping zvz in lost saga, proceeded to crash and burn. Then came back and raped again. Then he crashed again [hint were right here]. My point you ask? Well, that Zero is doing the same thing Zero has always been doing, beating whoever whenever he feels like, and losing to them as well. If Zero's zvz is highly questionable, it ALWAYS was, because its flaw is that of Zero himself, always. Inconsistency.
As I've said before, Zero will rape the shit out of Kwanro tonight or Kwanro will rape the shit out of Zero. It doesn't depends on the quality of Zero's zvz, but weather Zero wants to play like he did back in 2007, or like hes suppose to ever since his 08 break out.
On July 23 2009 14:16 Conquest101 wrote: Iris can definitely showcase good TvZ games imo.
While that is true, there is already plenty of TvZ around: Flash vs July Iris vs Effort Jaedong vs Canata possibly Effort vs Flash possibly Leta vs YarnC Jaedong/Effort vs Fantasy/Canata
Keeping one Toss around surely wouldn't hurt viewer pleasure this season.
On July 23 2009 14:16 Conquest101 wrote: Iris can definitely showcase good TvZ games imo.
While that is true, there is already plenty of TvZ around: Flash vs July Iris vs Effort Jaedong vs Canata possibly Effort vs Flash possibly Leta vs YarnC Jaedong/Effort vs Fantasy/Canata
Keeping one Toss around surely wouldn't hurt viewer pleasure this season.
To be fair, though, TvZ is totally the best match up. :3
On July 23 2009 17:14 Dazed_Spy wrote: he still is the next zvz jedi, people just like to jump on bandwagons. Someone with a red or a blue name said zero's zvz was highly questionable, so everyone said "yes sah yes it is sah highly questionable sah", ignoring that Zero has always been streaky. That zero, after raping zvz in lost saga, proceeded to crash and burn. Then came back and raped again. Then he crashed again [hint were right here]. My point you ask? Well, that Zero is doing the same thing Zero has always been doing, beating whoever whenever he feels like, and losing to them as well. If Zero's zvz is highly questionable, it ALWAYS was, because its flaw is that of Zero himself, always. Inconsistency.
As I've said before, Zero will rape the shit out of Kwanro tonight or Kwanro will rape the shit out of Zero. It doesn't depends on the quality of Zero's zvz, but weather Zero wants to play like he did back in 2007, or like hes suppose to ever since his 08 break out.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this post. Isn't that inconsistency you're describing the basic meaning of "questionable"? I don't see any bandwagon, personally. Just because he plays well (not even that great IMO) in ZvZ sometimes doesn't make him the next ZvZ heir. In a BO5 vs Effort/Yarnc/Jaedong, I would expect Zero to lose pretty badly.
Honestly, I don't even understand how Zero's ZvZ got so hyped up in the first place. He beat Yarnc, which was good, but Yarnc wasn't playing the kind of ZvZ he is now. He beat Savior, which quite honestly was not an impressive feat. Savior has pretty much sucked balls at ZvZ forever now. Than he proceeded to lose to everyone for awhile before going on a "streak". Said streak mostly comprised of Modesty and Orion. And than continued to lose pretty much every ZvZ after that.
Can he beat Kwanro? Maybe, since Kwanro's ZvZ play isn't really stellar either.
On July 23 2009 17:14 Dazed_Spy wrote: he still is the next zvz jedi, people just like to jump on bandwagons. Someone with a red or a blue name said zero's zvz was highly questionable, so everyone said "yes sah yes it is sah highly questionable sah", ignoring that Zero has always been streaky. That zero, after raping zvz in lost saga, proceeded to crash and burn. Then came back and raped again. Then he crashed again [hint were right here]. My point you ask? Well, that Zero is doing the same thing Zero has always been doing, beating whoever whenever he feels like, and losing to them as well. If Zero's zvz is highly questionable, it ALWAYS was, because its flaw is that of Zero himself, always. Inconsistency.
As I've said before, Zero will rape the shit out of Kwanro tonight or Kwanro will rape the shit out of Zero. It doesn't depends on the quality of Zero's zvz, but weather Zero wants to play like he did back in 2007, or like hes suppose to ever since his 08 break out.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this post. Isn't that inconsistency you're describing the basic meaning of "questionable"? I don't see any bandwagon, personally. Just because he plays well (not even that great IMO) in ZvZ sometimes doesn't make him the next ZvZ heir. In a BO5 vs Effort/Yarnc/Jaedong, I would expect Zero to lose pretty badly.
Honestly, I don't even understand how Zero's ZvZ got so hyped up in the first place. He beat Yarnc, which was good, but Yarnc wasn't playing the kind of ZvZ he is now. He beat Savior, which quite honestly was not an impressive feat. Savior has pretty much sucked balls at ZvZ forever now. Than he proceeded to lose to everyone for awhile before going on a "streak". Said streak mostly comprised of Modesty and Orion. And than continued to lose pretty much every ZvZ after that.
Can he beat Kwanro? Maybe, since Kwanro's ZvZ play isn't really stellar either.
You people should watch the games. The reason Zero's ZvZ is hyped up is because his muta micro is completely out of this world, his mutas are crisp, smooth and elegant and barely take any hits at all and lag like many other progamers, his muta micro is out of this world in all 3 mus, if you want a clear showcase of this muta micro watch his game vs Kwanro in Medusa on GOM. Its sick sick stuff, he is getting pwned by lings and his zvz sense is not as good as many others, but only Jaedong matches his mutas in ZvZ (Fakeyellow does in ZvT, but thats another story). Im expecting Zero to take this with ease if it ends up with Muta vs Muta battles, but ZvZ is quite random in non JD level so we wil lsee.
canata played really well in the last couple of weeks, no doubt about that. but somehow i don't see him winning vs jaedong. to be honest, not even close.
but i'm definitly rooting for him, seems like a really cool guy. he's been around for so long, he deserves to kick some major ass now!
JD no killer face . Oh well, if he loses tonight, he enters pissed off mode which is much worse than killer face for sure, its lose-lose situation for canata.
Four drones of Jaedong's go down!!! A vulture is already making!!! Lings take down the bunker, but a vulture is en route. A sunken WILL NOT be finished in time.
On July 23 2009 18:49 Mystlord wrote: The replay shows that Jaedong tried to put the creep colony down earlier but was blocked by Zerglings. He tried to place it twice to no avail.
Sucks to be him
He has nothing to do at this moment. Just bad skill.
On July 23 2009 18:49 jello24 wrote: wow good job relying on cheese canata... way to show off your endless skill.
hello Oz fan
Hello arrogant T1 fan .
arrogant?JD fucked this up and ppl whine about cheese. what was he thinking going with almost all his lings against wall, knowing that his sunk timing will be bad and theres vult comming?
Jaedong should have used the group of zerglings to block the ramp instead of attacking Canatas wall-in. When the vulture was let inside main it was GG.
It is amazing how one fucking fragile unit can win you a game...
On July 23 2009 18:49 jello24 wrote: wow good job relying on cheese canata... way to show off your endless skill.
hello Oz fan
Hello arrogant T1 fan .
arrogant?JD fucked this up and ppl whine about cheese. what was he thinking going with almost all his lings against wall, knowing that his sunk timing will be bad and theres vult comming?
I Shoulda just said T1 fan, but no one would get it.
and besides canatas gonna own jaedong ezpz, all the reason to be confident :D.
Only Jaedong fanboys can possibly think that 8 rax into vulture into wraith w/ expo is cheese. What a delusional bunch
Canata definitely wasn't planning to win with that vulture, just slow Jaedong down and get him off balance for the wraith and switch to bio after the expo. JD just reacted badly and Canata played really well.
On July 23 2009 18:49 jello24 wrote: wow good job relying on cheese canata... way to show off your endless skill.
nobody says this about zergling rushes. why?
When a Terran does something like Bunker rush, they're not even behind when it fails lol.
that's not even true, the only bunker rush that isn't at all damaging is a fake one. when a bunker rush fails and marines are caught with their pants down the game becomes lopsided.
Annoying build -_- Even when JD scouts correclty on the first try and knows whats coming, and Canata scouts on the last and sends the 2 marines over in full view of the overlord, Jaedong still has to rely on drones vs marines in order not to lose the game.
Sometimes the drones focus a marine and kill it, sometimes it escapes with red hp and you lose 1...2...3. drones and the bunker goes up and things just snowball from there.
also, great games result with early agression. if jaedong defended well, the game could have been especially interesting. i would have bet money that jaedong would have won if he blocked the bunker rush.
On July 23 2009 18:49 jello24 wrote: wow good job relying on cheese canata... way to show off your endless skill.
hello Oz fan
Hello arrogant T1 fan .
lol i found that zergs are the most arrogant.
I find a certain person is arrogant in my own way, not a group of people. I just added arrogant because he has reason to be confident: canata will win.
On July 23 2009 18:57 Atrioc wrote: Annoying build -_- Even when JD scouts correclty on the first try and knows whats coming, and Canata scouts on the last and sends the 2 marines over in full view of the overlord, Jaedong still has to rely on drones vs marines in order not to lose the game.
Sometimes the drones focus a marine and kill it, sometimes it escapes with red hp and you lose 1...2...3. drones and the bunker goes up and things just snowball from there.
Jaedong as been in the same situation before and defended without losing a single drone.
8rax mech is quite standard and not really a cheese. It's really safe and even if it fails doesn't leave the T far behind at all. Hence you shouldn't call it cheese. And it's not that difficult to defend against, JD just screwed up really bad.
On July 23 2009 18:52 dasanivan wrote: nobody says this about zergling rushes. why?
yeah they do... people say it all the time about all types of cheese... cheese to a lot here = skilless...
On July 23 2009 18:52 konadora wrote: Cheese is part of Starcraft.
true... all i said was that if he wanted to show off skill, he should have the confidence to go toe to toe with JD... like bisu in GOM for example. i just expect that when JD plays, there's something epic coming out of it... win or lose.
it just boggles my mind that when horang2 cheeses NaDa, people call him a skill-less noob... im just recalling what was said about cheesers by other users thats all.
You ALL know Jaedong pwned Letas wraith build recently! WHY? Coz Lomo has used that build way longer and Jaedong even said Lomo has better wraithmicro than Leta.
When Jaedong learns how to play against Canatas and fantaSy gay strategies he is just superior in all aspects. T1 terrans rely on early harass to build momentum and advantage nothing else.
On July 23 2009 18:49 jello24 wrote: wow good job relying on cheese canata... way to show off your endless skill.
id love to see U microing a vulture with no hp left to 13+ kills....
umm, I could do that when I was D-, it only takes 1 hour of practice on a micro map to learn lol.
i suspect you were d- because you focused on microing the vulture instead of macroing at the same time.
Actually, I just learnt it because I thought it was gosu and cool at the time, its pretty simple to do and the micro map is fun for a while. No ad homenim attacks here please, its not too hard to micro a vult, multitasking however is difficult, but there wasnt much for canata to multitask at that point in the game.
How is 8 rax (scouted btw) -> Fact even considered cheese anymore?
For the longest time that was like every other TvZ =/.
Jaedong had some really poor decision making that game. Like not finished off those rines for whatever reason. Not getting down an earlier sunk (bunk only had 1 rine in it). Seriously, he HAD to expect a vult.
CJ Coach for Effort: "Ro8 Ro4 is just part of the road to winning the whole thing~" STX Coach for Calm: "Ro32 2 wins! Ro16 2:0! Let's have only wins in Ro8 too~"
Effort's spire started now as well. Calm planting a hatch at his nat. So Calm's gonna have faster mutas, but not by much. Question is if he can get a second gas running and actually hold it. Positions are good for him to defend the cliff over the drones
Effort moving out with a ~12 of lings, not speedy. Calm has about 10 to defend. This'll be micro heavy. Effort attacks the nat hatch and Calm is so far backing off. He starts gas and MUTAS COME OUT. Takes out the lings. Calm still has about 5 lings and mutas flying. Effort's mutas now in flight
On July 23 2009 19:02 Shikyo wrote: 8rax mech is quite standard and not really a cheese. It's really safe and even if it fails doesn't leave the T far behind at all. Hence you shouldn't call it cheese. And it's not that difficult to defend against, JD just screwed up really bad.
cheese or not, its fucking part of the game.people whing about it are probably the ones spamming:bm cheese noob, when they lose to it on iccup.kids need to learn that other builds, non standard also exist in SC and are viable. Theres even post on start forum of someone trying to define whats cheese and whats not.... comon, wth is that.
When Jaedong learns how to play against Canatas and fantaSy gay strategies he is just superior in all aspects. T1 terrans rely on early harass to build momentum and advantage nothing else.
Thats like saying that protoss FE is gay because it relies on cannons to help block rushes to secure an early economic advantage.
Calm's spire is done and he's morphing Mutas from the looks of it.
Effort is moving in with his lings and it attacking the natural hatchery. Calm is engaging with his lings, and delays EffOrt's lings until his Mutalisks pop.
Effort seems to have 5 Mutalisks and 1 pair of scourge as opposed ot Calm's just 3 Mutas.
2 pair of scourge incoming from effort, third pair just hatched. Looking to find Calm's mutas. Does find them! Some scourges connect. Lands a scourge of his own and forces effort back at the moment, but new scourges come in. This is back and forth. Calm has his 2nd gas running.
i find it really funny that when boxer bunker rushes yellow 3 times in a row ppl are excited and call him the one of the greatest, most skilled and most entertaining players of all times.
if some1 else uses anything resembling any kind of rush or cheese he is called a gay skillless noob that was afraid to play a straight up game and robbed them off a potentially entertaining game.
its fucking part of the game, so stop bitching about it.
On July 23 2009 19:07 Black Gun wrote: i find it really funny that when boxer bunker rushes yellow 3 times in a row ppl are excited and call him the one of the greatest, most skilled and most entertaining players of all times.
if some1 else uses anything resembling any kind of rush or cheese he is called a gay skillless noob that was afraid to play a straight up game and robbed them off a potentially entertaining game.
its fucking part of the game, so stop bitching about it.
Alot of people were pissed at boxer actually, but that 1 set isn't the reason people think he's the greatest. Why would you think that o.o
Calm snipes a pack of scourge while effort runs lings into calm's base. Killing a bunch of drones, but Calm has his muta pack in effort's main, doing at least the same amount of damage. ok, more. More lings running into calm's main. They've effectively killed each others' drone lines. Calm in clearly greater muta numbers though but now lings take out calm's nat. Don't see how effort is gonna bring down that muta pack though. He has no air.
On July 23 2009 19:02 Shikyo wrote: 8rax mech is quite standard and not really a cheese. It's really safe and even if it fails doesn't leave the T far behind at all. Hence you shouldn't call it cheese. And it's not that difficult to defend against, JD just screwed up really bad.
cheese or not, its fucking part of the game.people whing about it all probably the ones spamming:bm cheese noob, when they lose to it on iccup.kids need to learn that other builds, non standard also exist in SC and are viable. Theres even post on start forum of someone trying to define whats cheese and whats not.... comon, wth is that.
Born in 89 and everyone is a kid. The internet never ceases to amaze me.
On July 23 2009 19:07 Black Gun wrote: i find it really funny that when boxer bunker rushes yellow 3 times in a row ppl are excited and call him the one of the greatest, most skilled and most entertaining players of all times.
if some1 else uses anything resembling any kind of rush or cheese he is called a gay skillless noob that was afraid to play a straight up game and robbed them off a potentially entertaining game.
its fucking part of the game, so stop bitching about it.
lol were you actually around for boxer bunker rushing 3 times in a row
the shitstorm was enormous use the search function: there were entire threads made expressing hate towards the series
On July 23 2009 19:07 Black Gun wrote: i find it really funny that when boxer bunker rushes yellow 3 times in a row ppl are excited and call him the one of the greatest, most skilled and most entertaining players of all times.
Yellow posted on his site that he felt Terran was the superior race to Zerg, the day after that match..
On July 23 2009 19:02 Shikyo wrote: 8rax mech is quite standard and not really a cheese. It's really safe and even if it fails doesn't leave the T far behind at all. Hence you shouldn't call it cheese. And it's not that difficult to defend against, JD just screwed up really bad.
cheese or not, its fucking part of the game.people whing about it all probably the ones spamming:bm cheese noob, when they lose to it on iccup.kids need to learn that other builds, non standard also exist in SC and are viable. Theres even post on start forum of someone trying to define whats cheese and whats not.... comon, wth is that.
Born in 89 and everyone is a kid. The internet never ceases to amaze me.
i specified whos the kid and whos not, reading comprehension of some people never ceases to amaze me.
Well, next game's gonna be fun. Not looking at TLPD, has Bisu lost a PvT on any of Byzantium's versions?
edit: Just realized he's lost to FBH on Byzantium 2, that time where everyone though FHB had turned his TvP 180 degrees and blazed through his group. Other than that, I can't remember any.
On July 23 2009 18:49 jello24 wrote: wow good job relying on cheese canata... way to show off your endless skill.
Cheese is part of Starcraft.
let the kids whine <3
So only Oz fans are kids?
at least Bisu fans are blaming the maps and his incompetence to play against non-standard builds for his losses and give his opponents credit for playing good, LOL
Canata's first seed in the MSL! Suffered by not being able to go to the higher levels in the past~ Ro16/Ro32 over and over Beat Savior then Piano to reach seed. That dream! Finally achieved! 6 years since he's debuted, and first time getting a seed!
In the past, in the MSL zergs haven't done well, then in the last MSL zerg won - now zerg are doing awesome! How are the other races doing? In the beginning, there were 16 terran - now there are only 2 left - iris and canata. Who would've guessed? One protoss! However, this doesn't mean you should ignore these terran and protoss~
On July 23 2009 18:49 jello24 wrote: wow good job relying on cheese canata... way to show off your endless skill.
id love to see U microing a vulture with no hp left to 13+ kills....
umm, I could do that when I was D-, it only takes 1 hour of practice on a micro map to learn lol.
i suspect you were d- because you focused on microing the vulture instead of macroing at the same time.
Actually, I just learnt it because I thought it was gosu and cool at the time, its pretty simple to do and the micro map is fun for a while. No ad homenim attacks here please, its not too hard to micro a vult, multitasking however is difficult, but there wasnt much for canata to multitask at that point in the game.
dude, it's a forum where people call each other profanities in every live game thread, relax. we're all friends, right?
if not, then i apologize.
also, calm > effort is a big surprise. i'm afraid we may have a new legend of the fall with all the zerg out there being amazing.
When Jaedong learns how to play against Canatas and fantaSy gay strategies he is just superior in all aspects. T1 terrans rely on early harass to build momentum and advantage nothing else.
Thats like saying that protoss FE is gay because it relies on cannons to help block rushes to secure an early economic advantage.
Its not called a strategy game for nothing.
My point was you see T1 terrans use some kind of combine mech harass into bio or just mech. If you seen FantaSy games and last OSL you know what i'm talking about. Terrans outcome relies heavy on how much damage that slow vulture can do.
On July 23 2009 18:49 jello24 wrote: wow good job relying on cheese canata... way to show off your endless skill.
id love to see U microing a vulture with no hp left to 13+ kills....
umm, I could do that when I was D-, it only takes 1 hour of practice on a micro map to learn lol.
i suspect you were d- because you focused on microing the vulture instead of macroing at the same time.
Actually, I just learnt it because I thought it was gosu and cool at the time, its pretty simple to do and the micro map is fun for a while. No ad homenim attacks here please, its not too hard to micro a vult, multitasking however is difficult, but there wasnt much for canata to multitask at that point in the game.
dude, it's a forum where people call each other profanities in every live game thread, relax. we're all friends, right?
if not, then i apologize.
also, calm > effort is a big surprise. i'm afraid we may have a new legend of the fal with all the zerg out there being amazing.
its not that big surprise, i heard the top players are most afraid of Calm, not Effort
On July 23 2009 18:49 jello24 wrote: wow good job relying on cheese canata... way to show off your endless skill.
id love to see U microing a vulture with no hp left to 13+ kills....
umm, I could do that when I was D-, it only takes 1 hour of practice on a micro map to learn lol.
i suspect you were d- because you focused on microing the vulture instead of macroing at the same time.
Actually, I just learnt it because I thought it was gosu and cool at the time, its pretty simple to do and the micro map is fun for a while. No ad homenim attacks here please, its not too hard to micro a vult, multitasking however is difficult, but there wasnt much for canata to multitask at that point in the game.
dude, it's a forum where people call each other profanities in every live game thread, relax. we're all friends, right?
if not, then i apologize.
also, calm > effort is a big surprise. i'm afraid we may have a new legend of the fall with all the zerg out there being amazing.
Sure np. Why is ZvZ losses a surprise. The way it works is JD tier, A-Class tier, and the rest of the mediocre zergs imo. Its a coin toss up if 2 A-class Zs clash really, and both Calm and Effort are A-class.
Canata's first seed in the MSL! Suffered by not being able to go to the higher levels in the past~ Ro16/Ro32 over and over Beat Savior then Piano to reach seed. That dream! Finally achieved! 6 years since he's debuted, and first time getting a seed!
In the past, in the MSL zergs haven't done well, then in the last MSL zerg won - now zerg are doing awesome! How are the other races doing? In the beginning, there were 16 terran - now there are only 2 left - iris and canata. Who would've guessed? One protoss! However, this doesn't mean you should ignore these terran and protoss~
On July 23 2009 19:20 Smix wrote: iris last 10 games 5-5 losses to firebathero, flash, leta, best, and go.go wins against nada, upmagic, hwasin, hwasin, go.go
On July 23 2009 19:02 Shikyo wrote: 8rax mech is quite standard and not really a cheese. It's really safe and even if it fails doesn't leave the T far behind at all. Hence you shouldn't call it cheese. And it's not that difficult to defend against, JD just screwed up really bad.
cheese or not, its fucking part of the game.people whing about it are probably the ones spamming:bm cheese noob, when they lose to it on iccup.kids need to learn that other builds, non standard also exist in SC and are viable. Theres even post on start forum of someone trying to define whats cheese and whats not.... comon, wth is that.
I know, I wonder why you're telling this to me, swearing as well? If you didn't get it, I was agreeing with you.
When Jaedong learns how to play against Canatas and fantaSy gay strategies he is just superior in all aspects. T1 terrans rely on early harass to build momentum and advantage nothing else.
Thats like saying that protoss FE is gay because it relies on cannons to help block rushes to secure an early economic advantage.
Its not called a strategy game for nothing.
My point was you see T1 terrans use some kind of combine mech harass into bio or just mech. If you seen FantaSy games and last OSL you know what i'm talking about. Terrans outcome relies heavy on how much damage that slow vulture can do.
And 12 hatch relies heavily on not getting rushed, every build has a risk/reward factor.
Sure np. Why is ZvZ losses a surprise. The way it works is JD tier, A-Class tier, and the rest of the mediocre zergs imo. Its a coin toss up if 2 A-class Zs clash really, and both Calm and Effort are A-class.
but, according to the StarCraft Trading Card Game, Effort is S-class (Jaedong's class), while Calm is merely A-class.
If you are right, then the StarCraft Trading Card Game must be wrong.
But seriously, I could cite the fact that Effort beat Jaedong twice in a row.
On July 23 2009 19:02 Shikyo wrote: 8rax mech is quite standard and not really a cheese. It's really safe and even if it fails doesn't leave the T far behind at all. Hence you shouldn't call it cheese. And it's not that difficult to defend against, JD just screwed up really bad.
cheese or not, its fucking part of the game.people whing about it are probably the ones spamming:bm cheese noob, when they lose to it on iccup.kids need to learn that other builds, non standard also exist in SC and are viable. Theres even post on start forum of someone trying to define whats cheese and whats not.... comon, wth is that.
I know, I wonder why you're telling this to me, swearing as well? If you didn't get it, I was agreeing with you.
So, Byzantium 3. Iris in teal top right. Bisu in blue top left.
Bisu making gateway after first pylon, standard. Iris playing just as standard, going rax/gas essentially at the same time.
Bisu finds Iris on first attempt, harassing the barrack-building SCV. AND HE GETS IT! SCVs bug a little while turning and he moves to an angle where he can fire at it (small range) and get it without taking dmg himself. little lucky, but well played. Zealot now incoming to harass! Range started back home while iris is making marines.
On July 23 2009 19:02 Shikyo wrote: 8rax mech is quite standard and not really a cheese. It's really safe and even if it fails doesn't leave the T far behind at all. Hence you shouldn't call it cheese. And it's not that difficult to defend against, JD just screwed up really bad.
cheese or not, its fucking part of the game.people whing about it are probably the ones spamming:bm cheese noob, when they lose to it on iccup.kids need to learn that other builds, non standard also exist in SC and are viable. Theres even post on start forum of someone trying to define whats cheese and whats not.... comon, wth is that.
I know, I wonder why you're telling this to me, swearing as well? If you didn't get it, I was agreeing with you.
What are you going to do about the reading comprehension of kids these days...
When Jaedong learns how to play against Canatas and fantaSy gay strategies he is just superior in all aspects. T1 terrans rely on early harass to build momentum and advantage nothing else.
Thats like saying that protoss FE is gay because it relies on cannons to help block rushes to secure an early economic advantage.
Its not called a strategy game for nothing.
My point was you see T1 terrans use some kind of combine mech harass into bio or just mech. If you seen FantaSy games and last OSL you know what i'm talking about. Terrans outcome relies heavy on how much damage that slow vulture can do.
And 12 hatch relies heavily on not getting rushed, every build has a risk/reward factor.
Stupid reply. I followed progaming since ChoJJa was good. So I will end discussion here with you.
Here comes the zealot. 3 marines in place and factory just done. machine shop coming first. Goon finds the scouting scv, fires at it, but leaves it at 20 hp. the next dragoon pops out of gateway and takes it before it can see the entire base. Bisu looking standard so far though. Iris now pushing up his ramp with 5 marines + 1 scv. Bisu backs off and obs shows Iris making a 2nd factory. It's almost done in fact
Bisu expands while Iris looks to move out with first tank. Let's see some micro war. Bisu dancing his goons very well so far, thinning marines numbers. Iris pushed back and now only has 2 vultures + tank. Does mine up though and is safe atm. Not the aggressive push he wanted though. Bisu doesn't KNOW its 2 fac, but he has to suspect it considering how fast vults and tanks pop out. Now Iris is pushing with 3 tanks and 4 vultures. Bisu not dancing atm and has pulled back all the way to his nat. If Iris has siege tech done, this could be bad.
When Jaedong learns how to play against Canatas and fantaSy gay strategies he is just superior in all aspects. T1 terrans rely on early harass to build momentum and advantage nothing else.
Thats like saying that protoss FE is gay because it relies on cannons to help block rushes to secure an early economic advantage.
Its not called a strategy game for nothing.
My point was you see T1 terrans use some kind of combine mech harass into bio or just mech. If you seen FantaSy games and last OSL you know what i'm talking about. Terrans outcome relies heavy on how much damage that slow vulture can do.
And 12 hatch relies heavily on not getting rushed, every build has a risk/reward factor.
Stupid reply. I followed progaming since ChoJJa was good. So I will end discussion here with you.
?!?! That wasn't long time ago actually. Some people here follow progaming when SidE_Legend / JunWi / Sinji / Oddysay / ZeuS and JinNaM were playing
Iris showing vultures in there, doing a little tornado play, planting mines all around. Bisu microing well, but he's pushed back into a corner while tanks make short work of goons. no siege tech yet though. More vultures streaming in and Bisu looks to be in the shit. He has an observer out but STILL runs 2 goons into a mine, one dies, one lives with little HP.
... and my stream dies for a sec. Bisu now looking to push back with pure goons... stream skips again and the next thing I see is vultures running into his main while mines shit things up. Bisu GGs
When Jaedong learns how to play against Canatas and fantaSy gay strategies he is just superior in all aspects. T1 terrans rely on early harass to build momentum and advantage nothing else.
Thats like saying that protoss FE is gay because it relies on cannons to help block rushes to secure an early economic advantage.
Its not called a strategy game for nothing.
My point was you see T1 terrans use some kind of combine mech harass into bio or just mech. If you seen FantaSy games and last OSL you know what i'm talking about. Terrans outcome relies heavy on how much damage that slow vulture can do.
And 12 hatch relies heavily on not getting rushed, every build has a risk/reward factor.
Stupid reply. I followed progaming since ChoJJa was good. So I will end discussion here with you.
?!?! That wasn't long time ago actually. Some people here follow progaming when SidE_Legend / JunWi / Sinji / Oddysay / ZeuS and JinNaM were playing
lol at bragging at following progaming since 'chojja was good' chojja was never the best. yes he may have been a really good zerg but he would always be eclipsed by savior.
When Jaedong learns how to play against Canatas and fantaSy gay strategies he is just superior in all aspects. T1 terrans rely on early harass to build momentum and advantage nothing else.
Thats like saying that protoss FE is gay because it relies on cannons to help block rushes to secure an early economic advantage.
Its not called a strategy game for nothing.
My point was you see T1 terrans use some kind of combine mech harass into bio or just mech. If you seen FantaSy games and last OSL you know what i'm talking about. Terrans outcome relies heavy on how much damage that slow vulture can do.
And 12 hatch relies heavily on not getting rushed, every build has a risk/reward factor.
Stupid reply. I followed progaming since ChoJJa was good. So I will end discussion here with you.
@OP regarding Effort vs Calm summary - I'm not entirely sure what the opening builds were but Effort actually got his gas slightly earlier than Calm. He did something like 9 gas -> overlord -> 10 pool while Calm went either 9 pool gas or 9 overpool gas (not sure which).
Man, all the favorites are dropping tonight. Canata/Iris/Calm all in the semifinals would be hilarious, it'll be interesting to see if they can hang on to win their respective series.
On July 23 2009 19:31 Dice84 wrote: Bisu looked so helpless there once Iris invaded his nat. Good thing I voted for Iris! Woot!
Bisu must have seen this push coming, seeing as how he moved the goons back to his nat. What surprised me is how he walled off his nat instead of adding gates. He restricted his mobility a lot by blocking off the vults. I don't know if I'd done that. Then again, he's Bisu. I'm a scrub.
Such beautiful play by Iris ... you take the gamble that your opponent will make just ONE mistake and you have to seize it, and that's exactly what he does. Just art to watch.
I would have been alot more excited over that 2 fac if Bisu wasn't the protoss on the receiving end.
On July 23 2009 19:35 kemoryan wrote: I don't get it. Why did bisu retreat his goons to his natural? He could have delayed that push better otherwise...
On July 23 2009 19:35 kemoryan wrote: I don't get it. Why did bisu retreat his goons to his natural? He could have delayed that push better otherwise...
Vulture runby goons, lay mines, and rape.
i think kemoryan was referring to bisu retreating the goons even before Iris was closed in on bisu's nat. retreating the goons made space for the vultures to come in, which may have cost him the game.
so now its just up to Zero to cap off an awesome night of upsets... man can't wait to see the comments in this thread tomorrow... JD and Bisu fanboys defending their heroes left right and center...
Both players going for the same 12 pool into expo build. Kwanro has his lair up faster, but it looks like ZerO is going for Zergling speed before lair!
ZerO has 4 lings attacking Kwanro's natural Hatchery, but Kwanro isn't doing anything.
KWANRO BARELY stops 4 speedlings from getting into his base! How crucial! Speed is done for Kwanro!! ZerO is behind in EVERYTHING! Except drones. ZerO is desperately pumping lings!
ENGAGEMENT! ZerO comes out on top, but barely.
More lings coming for kwanro, and his spire is almost done!
ZerO uses drones to fend the zerglings off, but Kwanro just runs into ZerO's main. ZerO is forced to pull his drones to his main. It looks like even Zergling numbers, and ZerO has to pull 3 drones to help fend off Kwanro's lings.
Mutas out for Kwanro and they're sniping an Overlord
Kwanro should have gotten evo and spores right after that muta attack where his lings killed loads of drones. I don't know why he didn't, and that nearly cost him the game.
Kwanro played it smart there, he knew Zero couldnt multitask with his godlike muta micro and just used it to his advantage :/. Weak multitask defence by Zero there, but really nice defence in the early game.
i wondered whether i should be discouraged from Flash losing many recent games, but he truly isn't the only one who faces immense pressure from lower tier players forcing themselves into the top.
but how much more practice can top players fit in to keep the status quo?
On July 23 2009 20:03 Klive5ive wrote: All these games were dreadful. This format ruins everything.
Actually, last game was pretty exciting. And I personally enjoyed Iris' killer 2 fact.
On the upside, for all the people crying about how all the favorites lost, this format actually helps them now. Since they have time to recover their mental state, prepare better for their opponents type of play. Basically, no repeat of say.... Iris vs Stork or some such.
On July 23 2009 20:03 Klive5ive wrote: All these games were dreadful. This format ruins everything.
Actually, last game was pretty exciting. And I personally enjoyed Iris' killer 2 fact.
On the upside, for all the people crying about how all the favorites lost, this format actually helps them now. Since they have time to recover their mental state, prepare better for their opponents type of play. Basically, no repeat of say.... Iris vs Stork or some such.
Well the games themselves were alright but it's like watching the dramatic opening of a film then turning it off. All these psychological plays don't seem as clever in a Bo1. What I saw today was a lot of nerves and scrappy play. It just doesn't give the players time to warm-up or to finish their well laid plans.
After that I don't feel satisfied at all. I feel like Jaedong and Bisu must feel, like I've just been smacked in the face - but didn't get chance to strike back. Now I have to wait a week (longer for Bisu) feeling like I've been smacked in the face, until I get to watch the rest of the games!
I feel like Jaedong and Bisu must feel, like I've just been smacked in the face - but didn't get chance to strike back. Now I have to wait a week (longer for Bisu) feeling like I've been smacked in the face, until I get to watch the rest of the games!
next week we will see what jaedong and bisu do when they are smacked in the face. i fear for iris and canata, but maybe we will be in for another surprise.
I feel like Jaedong and Bisu must feel, like I've just been smacked in the face - but didn't get chance to strike back. Now I have to wait a week (longer for Bisu) feeling like I've been smacked in the face, until I get to watch the rest of the games!
next week we will see what jaedong and bisu do when they are smacked in the face. i fear for iris and canata, but maybe we will be in for another surprise.
i think everyone is familiar with what happens when you smack JD in the face: FBH knows, Movie knows...
but in watching tonight's game, i dont think JD has the same fire that made him build 5 hatcheries in FBH's natural... he looked really defeated today. he left the booth scratching his head. he wasn't someone that got smacked in the face.
I think Bisu needed only one thing to be safe. When he retreated his goons to nat, probably to defend against harass, he had to put one goon(zeal, probe) in front of Iris nat. This way he would have seen the push coming and would have certainly defended easy since Iris lost all those marines earlier.
Well, I gues thats why current SC scene doesnt really have a true bonjwa that everyone can accept "He is a bonjwa, period". The skill gap is just too slim between each player.
What should have been a really fun thread to wake up to was instead ruined by children crying about cheese and "gay newb strategies". Thanks, guys.
You know what, you're right. Every SC player should just use the same strat every game, because anyone who tries something nonstandard or different is too gay and terrible to win anyway. Also, Every game should last 15 minutes or more - no game should be decided by an all-in, especially before both players have build up really big armies.
In fact from now on let's make all games be played NR 15 money map, that would totally solve all the issues.
God I wish complaining about "no-skill cheese" was bannable.
Iris is a legend. He managed to get to a previous final with GGPlay - and I think the shock must have gotten to him, but he's one of the few players left from the Savior era who is still showing that the vets have still got it in them.
Does anyone know where the clip of him beating another player in Proleague, I think it might have been FBH, where his winning ceremony was two thumbs down? He had a shaved head at that time and was wearing a beanie. Damn it looked hardcore.
On July 23 2009 23:56 Gryffindor_us wrote: Well, maybe because Jaedong "always" loses game 1 he'll actually lose because the next time they play will be the "first game" of that day ;D.
Kind of my thoughts too. Hopefully it doesn't work that way.
On July 23 2009 18:46 Highways wrote: This game showing what a massive advantage Terran has against Zerg.
Jaedong has like 8 drones left. Wraith is out.
Terran >>>>> Zerg
Seriously i agree. 1 fragile unit shouldn't be untouchable by other units (lings) with just micro and win a person the game if that unit goes into the main.
On July 23 2009 18:52 Highways wrote: Seriously bunker rushing has close to zero risk for Terran, but Zerg can lose a game from it.
Canata is now my most hated player, got the gayest style ever.
Zero risk to let the terran behind? are you kidding?
No, its true. Think about it, a fake bunker rush with canceling a bunker costs Terran 25 minerals. A Zerg reacting to a fake bunker rush will pull at least 6 to 8 drones (each drone mines 8 mineral so thats at least 48 minerals lost just to pull drones)
Not only that, but Zerg will be distracted and late on timing.
On July 23 2009 18:46 Highways wrote: This game showing what a massive advantage Terran has against Zerg.
Jaedong has like 8 drones left. Wraith is out.
Terran >>>>> Zerg
Seriously i agree. 1 fragile unit shouldn't be untouchable by other units (lings) with just micro and win a person the game if that unit goes into the main.
On July 23 2009 18:52 Highways wrote: Seriously bunker rushing has close to zero risk for Terran, but Zerg can lose a game from it.
Canata is now my most hated player, got the gayest style ever.
Zero risk to let the terran behind? are you kidding?
No, its true. Think about it, a fake bunker rush with canceling a bunker costs Terran 25 minerals. A Zerg reacting to a fake bunker rush will pull at least 6 to 8 drones (each drone mines 8 mineral so thats at least 48 minerals lost just to pull drones)
Not only that, but Zerg will be distracted and late on timing.
Yes. Overall sc needs heavily z favored maps all the time just to counter the natural advantages. This season is near perfect in this regard.
On July 23 2009 18:46 Highways wrote: This game showing what a massive advantage Terran has against Zerg.
Jaedong has like 8 drones left. Wraith is out.
Terran >>>>> Zerg
Seriously i agree. 1 fragile unit shouldn't be untouchable by other units (lings) with just micro and win a person the game if that unit goes into the main.
On July 23 2009 18:52 Highways wrote: Seriously bunker rushing has close to zero risk for Terran, but Zerg can lose a game from it.
Canata is now my most hated player, got the gayest style ever.
Zero risk to let the terran behind? are you kidding?
No, its true. Think about it, a fake bunker rush with canceling a bunker costs Terran 25 minerals. A Zerg reacting to a fake bunker rush will pull at least 6 to 8 drones (each drone mines 8 mineral so thats at least 48 minerals lost just to pull drones)
Not only that, but Zerg will be distracted and late on timing.
You're completely ignoring the fact that 8 raxing hinders the Terrans economy significantly and that 3-4 SCVs usually need to be sent along for a bunker rush to succeed. :O
And as for the single vult getting in the base, it's really quite easy to stop that from happening...
On July 23 2009 18:46 Highways wrote: This game showing what a massive advantage Terran has against Zerg.
Jaedong has like 8 drones left. Wraith is out.
Terran >>>>> Zerg
Seriously i agree. 1 fragile unit shouldn't be untouchable by other units (lings) with just micro and win a person the game if that unit goes into the main.
On July 23 2009 18:55 geod wrote:
On July 23 2009 18:52 Highways wrote: Seriously bunker rushing has close to zero risk for Terran, but Zerg can lose a game from it.
Canata is now my most hated player, got the gayest style ever.
Zero risk to let the terran behind? are you kidding?
No, its true. Think about it, a fake bunker rush with canceling a bunker costs Terran 25 minerals. A Zerg reacting to a fake bunker rush will pull at least 6 to 8 drones (each drone mines 8 mineral so thats at least 48 minerals lost just to pull drones)
Not only that, but Zerg will be distracted and late on timing.
You're completely ignoring the fact that 8 raxing hinders the Terrans economy significantly and that 3-4 SCVs usually need to be sent along for a bunker rush to succeed. :O
And as for the single vult getting in the base, it's really quite easy to stop that from happening...
8 rax does not hinder T economy as much as Zerg cheese = early ling production. A failed 9 pool or 4 pool will devastate Z economy so much compared to 8 rax.
3-4 SCV sent along will make it much more successful but look at this match between Canata and JD just now, he only used 1 scv and got to kill 4 drones just because he micro'd his marine (which have longer range than drones, therefore easier to micro)
As for the single vulture getting in the base, yes it is easy to stop but sometimes they can leak through just like how any unit can leak through a defense, but it shouldn't be game-costing, thats just messed up imo
On July 23 2009 18:46 Highways wrote: This game showing what a massive advantage Terran has against Zerg.
Jaedong has like 8 drones left. Wraith is out.
Terran >>>>> Zerg
Seriously i agree. 1 fragile unit shouldn't be untouchable by other units (lings) with just micro and win a person the game if that unit goes into the main.
On July 23 2009 18:55 geod wrote:
On July 23 2009 18:52 Highways wrote: Seriously bunker rushing has close to zero risk for Terran, but Zerg can lose a game from it.
Canata is now my most hated player, got the gayest style ever.
Zero risk to let the terran behind? are you kidding?
No, its true. Think about it, a fake bunker rush with canceling a bunker costs Terran 25 minerals. A Zerg reacting to a fake bunker rush will pull at least 6 to 8 drones (each drone mines 8 mineral so thats at least 48 minerals lost just to pull drones)
Not only that, but Zerg will be distracted and late on timing.
You're completely ignoring the fact that 8 raxing hinders the Terrans economy significantly and that 3-4 SCVs usually need to be sent along for a bunker rush to succeed. :O
And as for the single vult getting in the base, it's really quite easy to stop that from happening...
Significantly hinders the economy, you say. About the SCV's, no. 1 SCV might not be enough every time, but 2 should be plenty. Compare that to the mining time the Zerg loses by pulling about 6-8 drones, and also consider that Zerg will have only about 4 drones mining whereas the Terran will have about... 12 or 13 the moment the bunker starts building, nonstop SCV production while Z has to make lings.
You don't necessarily have to kill any drones if you keep your marines alive, and killing merely 2 or 3 drones leaves you ahead. Also consider that your refinery starts just after your supply depot is finished, so your tech will be way faster than the Zerg's, as well. Even if your bunker rush fails almost completely... Let's say you bunker rush with 2 SCVs and 2-3 marines, don't kill any drones but force him to pull about 8 drones and you don't finish your bunker, the fact is that you will have the vulture out in time to counter his lings, and even if he didn't make an excess amount of zerglings(One of the goals of 8rax mech is to have your opponent make lings instead of drones/sunken), you still should be very close to even. Of course, you will most likely kill at least one or two drones with just basic targetfiring, leaving you even or ahead. If you're able to delay the Zerg's sunken at his natural for just a second too long, you get a freewin.
There's not much risk at all, the only way the T gets significantly behind is if he completely mismicroes or goes against 9pool/overpool(more about this later) After going 12hatch, the best counter is most likely to just build a sunken preferably out of the range of the bunker, and assess carefully the size of T's force and the amount of lings that are required, and make the absolute minimum. But even then, a T with good micro will inevitably snipe a couple of your drones, and it'll just translate into a standard TvZ mech play.
Another thing about going for an early pool, as in 9pool, overpool or 12pool, is that you won't have your natural down in time. 8rax mech is surprisingly almost a direct counter to 12pool. Although you will get the lings out in time to counter the 8rax bunker rush, the vulture gets into your main before you can put down a sunken. This means that you must block your ramp somehow with lings and drones until your sunken goes up, and let the vulture attack those units as much as it wants. With 9pool your sunken will be way late, so you basically have to end the game with those early lings or you're completely screwed against speed vultures.
All in all it's very safe for the T, and they can always do a semifake bunker rush with 1 or 2 marines, an SCV and a canceled bunker, which leaves them ahead even if it just forces Z to pull drones.
I don't understand how Jaedong screwing up leads to a huge discussion about how weak and disadvantaged zerg is, while on the other hand, Flash loses to 2 hatch lurkers and it's 5 pages of "Flash shouldn't play so greedy, Flash would never lose if he covered his entire base in turrets and went 6 rax before expanding because his lategame is so good"
On July 24 2009 01:10 Rostam wrote: I don't understand how Jaedong screwing up leads to a huge discussion about how weak and disadvantaged zerg is, while on the other hand, Flash loses to 2 hatch lurkers and it's 5 pages of "Flash shouldn't play so greedy, Flash would never lose if he covered his entire base in turrets and went 6 rax before expanding because his lategame is so good"
Because we already know from the history of Starcraft progaming that Terrans > Zerg since the days of Boxer
Flash losing to a Zerg just means he was playing greedy, opening up 14 cc
Don't blame it on the player, blame it on the balance
On July 24 2009 01:10 Rostam wrote: I don't understand how Jaedong screwing up leads to a huge discussion about how weak and disadvantaged zerg is, while on the other hand, Flash loses to 2 hatch lurkers and it's 5 pages of "Flash shouldn't play so greedy, Flash would never lose if he covered his entire base in turrets and went 6 rax before expanding because his lategame is so good"
Because we already know from the history of Starcraft progaming that Terrans > Zerg since the days of Boxer
Flash losing to a Zerg just means he was playing greedy, opening up 14 cc
Don't blame it on the player, blame it on the balance
Either stop trolling or make a reasonable argument.
Reasonable argument: Terrans have more innovators than zerg, therefore whenever terrans have a new strategy zergs are forced to adapt. Thus for a brief amount of time, Terran win rates spike vs zergs. Thus, terrans have a 55% win ratio vs zergs. Also, terrans have an advantage in the early to mid game because of their superior winrates. However, zergs have dark swarm which gives them the massive advantage lategame. This still works out in the Terran's favor though since early-midgame comes before lategame.
When Jaedong learns how to play against Canatas and fantaSy gay strategies he is just superior in all aspects. T1 terrans rely on early harass to build momentum and advantage nothing else.
Thats like saying that protoss FE is gay because it relies on cannons to help block rushes to secure an early economic advantage.
Its not called a strategy game for nothing.
My point was you see T1 terrans use some kind of combine mech harass into bio or just mech. If you seen FantaSy games and last OSL you know what i'm talking about. Terrans outcome relies heavy on how much damage that slow vulture can do.
And 12 hatch relies heavily on not getting rushed, every build has a risk/reward factor.
Stupid reply. I followed progaming since ChoJJa was good. So I will end discussion here with you.
?!?! That wasn't long time ago actually. Some people here follow progaming when SidE_Legend / JunWi / Sinji / Oddysay / ZeuS and JinNaM were playing
lol at bragging at following progaming since 'chojja was good' chojja was never the best. yes he may have been a really good zerg but he would always be eclipsed by savior.
I seem to remember our dear cowboy beating that upstart in an MSL final. To be sure, sAviOr has the more illustrious career, but for a few months at least, our diminuitive KTF Zerg topped Kespa and won at life.
Not to sound like tfeign, but you have to give him credit where credit's due.
I think Canata just sealed his fate. Winning the first game with an 8 rax against Jaedong? Imagine how pissed Jaedong will be in the upcoming games. I wouldn't be surprised if he starts building hatcheries in Canata's nat. Canata better pray for some miracle or he's done. Non-SKT1 players fighting! =D
You make an excellent point But just to add, I wanna say almost all maps since the dawn of time were mostly ALWAYS terran favored. I know the whole "maps are bad" argument is old and stale, but it does play true.
Jaedong lost = people rage about imbalance of races
The rule always apply, LOL
Good job Canata. Too bad Bisu and Effort lost but oh well.
For all people complaining about Canata Jaedong will have plenty opportunity to prove that he is better. But this is a box series and coming up with strat that will lead you to win is most important. From psychological point of view that was good choice by Canata. Hopefully this series will bring some epic games next time.
lawl, jaedong fans bitchin about imbalance. Not surprised. Why did Bisu fans get voted the most annoying fanbase? Bisu fans arent bitching about imbalance. Jaedong fans are. They always are- unless he wins, in which case hes a god. ugh
Edit: I hate this format it ruins the excitement of the msl. Is the ENTIRE b05 split up? Are all of them? I dont even watch these split up days because they bore me; which means at this point, im only watching the osl semi finals and final, and the msl final. Fucking morons why would they think splitting up a series would cause excitement?
On July 23 2009 13:42 JWD wrote: Go Bisu! After Fantasy, Iris should be no problem...let's just hope KTY can force a straight up game.
Does anyone else remember those games Iris played against Stork in... I think an OSL semi-final. At the time, Stork was rolling, especially against Terran. Absolutely unstoppable.
Iris just blew Stork out 3:0, with a 2-fac timing attack every time. The 2-fac annihilated early expansion, quick tech, every build Stork rolled out that set.
Anyways, I'm saying this because I like Bisu a lot and hope he wins and everything. But I won't be shocked if Iris pulls this one out.
On July 24 2009 02:18 Dazed_Spy wrote: Edit: I hate this format it ruins the excitement of the msl. Is the ENTIRE b05 split up? Are all of them? I dont even watch these split up days because they bore me; which means at this point, im only watching the osl semi finals and final, and the msl final. Fucking morons why would they think splitting up a series would cause excitement?
Seriously, I really hate this format. What I like about the MSL is that they do Bo5's starting at the Ro8, but this change was a huge step backwards. Why oh why ...
They say JD always loses the first game in a set. They also say splitting the games up makes them feel less like a set. Perhaps JD will lose the next game as well? :p
On July 24 2009 02:18 Dazed_Spy wrote: Edit: I hate this format it ruins the excitement of the msl. Is the ENTIRE b05 split up? Are all of them? I dont even watch these split up days because they bore me; which means at this point, im only watching the osl semi finals and final, and the msl final. Fucking morons why would they think splitting up a series would cause excitement?
Seriously, I really hate this format. What I like about the MSL is that they do Bo5's starting at the Ro8, but this change was a huge step backwards. Why oh why ...
I completely agree, thats why I always favoured the msl over the osl.
On July 24 2009 02:18 Dazed_Spy wrote: Edit: I hate this format it ruins the excitement of the msl. Is the ENTIRE b05 split up? Are all of them? I dont even watch these split up days because they bore me; which means at this point, im only watching the osl semi finals and final, and the msl final. Fucking morons why would they think splitting up a series would cause excitement?
Seriously, I really hate this format. What I like about the MSL is that they do Bo5's starting at the Ro8, but this change was a huge step backwards. Why oh why ...
I completely agree, thats why I always favoured the msl over the osl.
Same here. I just hope that they will realize after this season that it is a stupid idea and return to the old format.
I want canata to win so jaedong follows the patterns of past top players, win two osl's, slip into mediocrity never to be seen again. I THINK it was jwd who was talking about this not long ago? Might be wrong, maybe it was plexa.
I must admit that recently I have been very impressed with Canata. His play vs Jaedong was sick, he had control the whole 10 minutes and even if jaedong had stopped the bunker, the drones he lost set him so far behind it was ridiculous.
I'm slightly surprised that JD opened up with a 12hatch. Most TvZ's ive seen on outsider the Zerg opens 9pool. I guess he was confident enough in his drone micro. Too confident.
On July 23 2009 19:07 Black Gun wrote: i find it really funny that when boxer bunker rushes yellow 3 times in a row ppl are excited and call him the one of the greatest, most skilled and most entertaining players of all times.
if some1 else uses anything resembling any kind of rush or cheese he is called a gay skillless noob that was afraid to play a straight up game and robbed them off a potentially entertaining game.
its fucking part of the game, so stop bitching about it.
Damn, I was going to bring up that example, but was just too slow You are correct sir.
Why are Boxer's bunker rushes "brilliant", while Canata's are "noobcheesesauce"?
One word: Faaaanbooooyyyyismmm...
Whenever the popular players lose, idiots go around blaming the map, the opposing build, and Jesus himself, and occasionally Moses. All to explain away the brief ineptitude of their heroes. First off, these ARE just the game 1s, so don't shit your pants just yet. Second, and most important... 8-rax into mech, with or without the hopelessly common bunker rush, is not cheese. It's no more cheese than a 9-pool + speed, 2-gate zealot, or 4-gate.
True cheese is like 4 marines + 9 scvs, 5 pool, proxy dark templar (with the gateway hidden in the opponents main). Even then, cheese isn't a bad thing. If you want long macro games, stick with 3v3 BGH nr MM. But these idiots don't really want macro games; they just want the Jaedongs, the Boxers, and the Bisus of the SC world to always win.
Why are Boxer's bunker rushes "brilliant", while Canata's are "noobcheesesauce"? Because Boxer and Canata are different players. And Boxer is known for cheesing. Same reason no one cared when Bisu cheesed Really. Cause he would've rolled him no matter what build he chose. Same reason that people cared when Flash cheesed Bisu in their first series because he was a clear underdog.
people dont call every one of boxer's bunker rushs brilliant. Only the ones that are actually unique/creative/etc. When SkyHigh did the proxy fact vs JD it was received much better because it was creative and entertaining. Everyone loves a good cheese once in a while.
I think canata is getting a lot of hate because although well-executed it wasn't really too neat and has been seen many times before. Maybe its also just depressing since JD played so poorly vs it. I don't think his lings blocking the creep colony mattered much, the vulture was on it's way right when the creep colony got made, even with an extra 5 seconds it wouldn't of had finished in time.
On July 24 2009 09:56 TwoStep wrote: Why are Boxer's bunker rushes "brilliant", while Canata's are "noobcheesesauce"? Because Boxer and Canata are different players. And Boxer is known for cheesing. Same reason no one cared when Bisu cheesed Really. Cause he would've rolled him no matter what build he chose. Same reason that people cared when Flash cheesed Bisu in their first series because he was a clear underdog.
lol Canata did not do a standard build. Please point out examples where that specific build is done. I'm honestly not sure if it has been showcased before this (the 8 rax -> vulture is only a part of it).
It's not Canata's fault Jaedong sucked so badly it was over before the entire build even came into focus. That's one variation (extremely good one too) of the best current TvZ build that is rarely used; why fault him for being smarter than Jaedong?
And Canata is looking to be at least in the top 3 T's right now. Whether he's better than Flash or Fantasy remains to be seen.
On July 24 2009 09:56 TwoStep wrote: Why are Boxer's bunker rushes "brilliant", while Canata's are "noobcheesesauce"? Because Boxer and Canata are different players. And Boxer is known for cheesing. Same reason no one cared when Bisu cheesed Really. Cause he would've rolled him no matter what build he chose. Same reason that people cared when Flash cheesed Bisu in their first series because he was a clear underdog.
lolwut
I'm explaining why some people react differently to cheese even though it's essentially the same strategy. the first question was from a different poster. I don't see how that's confusing.
I fail to see what Canata did was cheese... Let alone bunker rushes a cheese. I understood Cheese as being an all-in attack that if failed, puts one at a decisive disadvantage.
In Canata vs. Jaedong game, If the bunker rush failed, although being at a disadvantage it is definitely not decisive and it was certainly not an all-in attack (He made a CC to expand for gods sake).
The only way I see a bunker rush being cheese if the terran goes BBS or the terran sends out like 7-12 scvs. Canata used a unique strategy against Jaedong but that's a farcry from being a cheese build.
Aw dammit come on Jaedong and Effort =( I'm sure both of you will win the bo5 though! This is Iris's MSL!!!! Your time to finally get a title is now! Nothing will stop the Beserkerrrrrr!
I'm extremely excited to watch Iris in GOM and this MSL. He's a seasoned veteran and it seems like he senses that his twilight years are approaching. I would really like to see him win a title to put the cherry on his career. He really deserves it.
On July 24 2009 10:27 Tensai176 wrote: I fail to see what Canata did was cheese... Let alone bunker rushes a cheese. I understood Cheese as being an all-in attack that if failed, puts one at a decisive disadvantage.
In Canata vs. Jaedong game, If the bunker rush failed, although being at a disadvantage it is definitely not decisive and it was certainly not an all-in attack (He made a CC to expand for gods sake).
The only way I see a bunker rush being cheese if the terran goes BBS or the terran sends out like 7-12 scvs. Canata used a unique strategy against Jaedong but that's a farcry from being a cheese build.
The fact that bunker rush / 8 rax is not labeled as cheese because its not an all-in attack seriously tells me that Terran gets a crapload of advantage in TvZ. They should be an all-in attack but T can perform these strategies without much risk, and at the same time, if Z wanted to do early ling production by early pool, it is considered a cheese solely on the fact that it is in all-in? Hmm...what were Blizzard workers thinking when they designed this matchup...
Just saw the games, can't believe Bisu, EffOrt and Jaedong all managed to lose in the same set of games. Thank god the format is going to be forgiving in giving the losers a week to compose themselves and prepare for what will have to be strong performances next week.
On July 24 2009 10:27 Tensai176 wrote: I fail to see what Canata did was cheese... Let alone bunker rushes a cheese. I understood Cheese as being an all-in attack that if failed, puts one at a decisive disadvantage.
In Canata vs. Jaedong game, If the bunker rush failed, although being at a disadvantage it is definitely not decisive and it was certainly not an all-in attack (He made a CC to expand for gods sake).
The only way I see a bunker rush being cheese if the terran goes BBS or the terran sends out like 7-12 scvs. Canata used a unique strategy against Jaedong but that's a farcry from being a cheese build.
The fact that bunker rush / 8 rax is not labeled as cheese because its not an all-in attack seriously tells me that Terran gets a crapload of advantage in TvZ. They should be an all-in attack but T can perform these strategies without much risk, and at the same time, if Z wanted to do early ling production by early pool, it is considered a cheese solely on the fact that it is in all-in? Hmm...what were Blizzard workers thinking when they designed this matchup...
I think that 1) the people who originally designed SC are gone, since it was 11 YEARS AGO, and 2) they definitely didn't intend to have the game turn out this way. They just went with what turned out to be a good thing.
On July 23 2009 22:51 jello_biafra wrote: Can't believe after so many years idiots still complain about the "imba" of TvZ, makes me sick.
Damn good games today, nicely played by all winners.
The ~55% TvZ winrate over those years definitely has nothing to do with that.
xellos nada boxer oov vs.... yellow and a bunch of trash for like 5 years on horribly imbalanced maps and it only comes out 55%>
clearly zerg is stronger than terran.
you just skipped over all the good zerg players of the time to prop up your illegitimate argument. Gorush, July, Chojja were all top Zerg players early into starcraft and were hardly considered trash. All of them - in fact every major zerg player in history and the majority of the minor ones, have weak zvt's compared to their other match ups. Coincidence? Or maybe its just a harder match up for zergs than it is terrans?
On July 25 2009 06:59 Tien wrote: Before Gorush / Savior, zerg had no idea how to play ZvT.
Before Bisu, protoss had no idea how to play PvZ.
It's not coincidence, zerg just had no concept of mutalisk micro and defiler use.
um...no. There were many many meta game shifts in every match up. Yeah, Savior and Gorush's management style definitely was be start of the modern era, which is more balanced, but its not as if zvt or pvz was stagnant before hand. Ra for example influenced pvz a LOT. Tvz hasn't always been t>z, same with z>p. Its just general trends that create the over all imbalance, but theres bene times where its not been true.
Savior 3 hatch muta -> 3 gas defiler standardized ZvT. Before that, zergs never really had a standard build order against terran. Mutalisk micro / defiler usage truly changed the entire matchup. That's a fact.
Yellow / Chojja / Julyzerg. All strong players, but got smashed in the face by terrans more often than not.
About ZvP. Before Bisu standardized fast expo -> corsair. There was no real standardized PvZ build that could face anything zergs threw at it.
Sure you had nal_ra with the 1 gate tech builds, but zergs always had the upperhand in the matchup.
Savior 3 hatch muta -> 3 gas defiler standardized ZvT. Before that, zergs never really had a standard build order against terran. Mutalisk micro / defiler usage truly changed the entire matchup. That's a fact.
Yellow / Chojja / Julyzerg. All strong players, but got smashed in the face by terrans more often than not.
About ZvP. Before Bisu standardized fast expo -> corsair. There was no real standardized PvZ build that could face anything zergs threw at it.
Sure you had nal_ra with the 1 gate tech builds, but zergs always had the upperhand in the matchup.
Your an idiot. Perhaps you'd like to watch some replays from the era you speak of, when zerg had no "standard" buiid orders against terran...because they did. And there were standardized pvz builds before bisu as well, and standardized zerg responses. Fuck this post was so full of ignorant trash. God Im pissed.
They had standardized builds yes, but completely inferior compared to builds today.
And the creation of mulalisk micro and defiler usage changed the game completely.
That's my entire point.
I started following the scene in 2002. I saw how the zergs were playing, and I saw how they were getting smashed by terrans. Everyone seems to have forgotten this. Boxer, Iloveoov, nada, xellos, sync all made mince meat out of zergs.
I was also playing on the old school server gamei as well as iccup. ZvT was a nightmare without mutalisk micro and defiler usage. ZvT is a lot easier today than it was before.
When did you start following starcraft? Not even a year. It's okay, you're a newcomer to the scene. I'll excuse your ignorance.
On July 26 2009 07:16 Tien wrote: They had standardized builds yes, but completely inferior compared to builds today.
And the creation of mulalisk micro and defiler usage changed the game completely.
That's my entire point.
I started following the scene in 2002. I saw how the zergs were playing, and I saw how they were getting smashed by terrans. Everyone seems to have forgotten this. Boxer, Iloveoov, nada, xellos, sync all made mince meat out of zergs.
I was also playing on the old school server gamei as well as iccup. ZvT was a nightmare without mutalisk micro and defiler usage. ZvT is a lot easier today than it was before.
When did you start following starcraft? Not even a year. It's okay, you're a newcomer to the scene. I'll excuse your ignorance.
You JUST said that there was no standard build orders in the past. Now you are saying the standard build orders werent good enough and there was imbalance. What the fuck. Why are you randomly pretending your having a completely different argument with me than you actually are?
And I've been around since the day starcraft came out, so eat me.
EPT
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Jaedong < Outsider > 
Canata![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/581.jpg)
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Bisu < Byzantium 3 > ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/174.jpg)
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ready for this, microwave almost exploded T_T
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