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On May 17 2009 22:22 dt4ever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 22:15 konadora wrote:On May 17 2009 22:11 dt4ever wrote:
On a side note, wtf is up with the brackets? There already was a stx vs stx match (Kal vs by.hero) and if Shuttle wins his game vs zerbong(which he should) there will be two more stx vs stx in the Ro.16 (Kal vs July and Hwasin vs Shuttle). I know there were many STX players, but wtf, there is noone from STX in the right side of the bracket... SKT1 had all 3 players on the same side in the OSL. Did they meet in the Ro.32/16?
Yes in fact it was RO8 (Bisu, Fantasy, and Best, all SKT1 players, along with Luxury were one half of eight man bracket).
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I'm so tempted to post the MVP pic but I might get banned.
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On May 17 2009 22:25 darktreb wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2009 22:14 Gliche wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 22:06 darktreb wrote:
I'm a huge Flash fan and he won easily, so there's not much more to ask for. However, before you say that when Flash plays like this, he's invincible, it should be noted that Flash's playstyle really "cliffs" in a sense that Protoss players below a certain level have no chance, not just to win the game, but look like they had ANY chance whatsoever of winning the game. Like, you get the feeling that Flash knows he's a far superior player mechanically than Reach, and therefore has no problem playing his pure turtle style for the safest possible win against a lesser player. I mean, if you can't match Flash's macro and can't kill him early, how can you possibly beat this strat? Honestly, it's a testament to Flash's genius for him to have developed this virtually bulletproof style against lesser players, and it's one of the reasons why Flash never ever ever ever loses to players more than one tier below him. To be perfectly honest, I wonder if Flash even prepared for these games - he's played enough TvP on Medusa to do it in his sleep, and he certainly seemed content to play "I got a ramp, free fast expo, and free 3 base on God's Garden".
But, when you bring in a top tier Protoss, such as a Stork (see their last PL matchup), Best (OSL), or the king himself Bisu (see GOM, PL) who won't make the small mistakes that put you impossibly behind against the Flash strat, the landscape changes completely.
Imagine the Medusa game with Bisu playing - there's no way Bisu loses that shuttle, and there's no way Bisu thinks he has Stasis when he doesn't (Bisu likely avoids EMP). In addition, Bisu would have had far better macro and probably found a whole in Flash's turret maze (or done some elevator multitasking that only he can pull off). All of a sudden that's a totally different game.
Even though Stork has been terrible lately, I'm still looking forward to Flash vs Stork tomorrow because it's always nice to see an elite Protoss player play against Flash. Below a certain level it's just a steamroll (see Horang, Pure, Reach recently), but above it, games get extremely interesting. I just can't see Flash 3-0ing Bisu, which makes me wonder if Fantasy's style isn't more resilient at the higher levels, and if offense isn't more resilient in elite series play.
One thing's for sure - Flash's TvP is as close as you can get to being invincible in a matchup when played against a lesser players. To me at least, Flash IS slumping in the sense that he's just executing the optimized build he created and that's it. There are 2 Flash's that show up to a game. One that just mindlessly does the build relative to the other Flash, who constantly reads and adapts even in the smallest of ways to his opponent. Flash #1 has near perfect execution in a standard game and steamrolls anyone non-S class. But without the intelligence that Flash #2 has behind the play, not just the build, he can't take on the top players very well. Bisu said it once in an interview that Flash is too stubborn and robotic sometimes and that's very true. It's almost like a curse that Flash's bulletproof robo-builds are so good that only the very best of the best progamers can beat them, because if nothing else it just encourages his style. Unless Flash is playing Bisu (the ultimate multitask measuring stick) all the time in practice, he's probably barely even getting any valuable feedback on his TvP.
Flash needs a change of scenery imo, aka switch teams! =D
His style has evolved to the point of perfection but his overall play has stagnated. JD and Bisu>Flash right now imo. I feel the reason why teams like CJ and SKT are so good throughout the years is because of their deeper lineup. Multiple good players with different styles that push each other to learn and adapt to completely new things. If you haven't noticed, a new mid-game dropship trend has started to show up in TvP. Best examples of this is Fantasy vs. Pure in proleague and Iris vs. Stats today on God's Garden. Looks like: port off 2 base->increase vulture production->extra minerals into 3rd cc->expo behind dropship harass->3base terran vs 3 base toss-> ferry tanks and vultures nonstop to deny toss's 4th + vulture runbys in main. The style in those games are like the next evolution of Flash's tvp. I just don't think KTF has what it takes to continue to develop and stay one step ahead of the metagame like that. It's just Flash. And that makes me sad.
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Flash will never leave KTF. He'll probably be the highest paid progamer when KTF gives him a new contract.
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On May 17 2009 23:05 Gliche wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 22:25 darktreb wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2009 22:14 Gliche wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 22:06 darktreb wrote:
I'm a huge Flash fan and he won easily, so there's not much more to ask for. However, before you say that when Flash plays like this, he's invincible, it should be noted that Flash's playstyle really "cliffs" in a sense that Protoss players below a certain level have no chance, not just to win the game, but look like they had ANY chance whatsoever of winning the game. Like, you get the feeling that Flash knows he's a far superior player mechanically than Reach, and therefore has no problem playing his pure turtle style for the safest possible win against a lesser player. I mean, if you can't match Flash's macro and can't kill him early, how can you possibly beat this strat? Honestly, it's a testament to Flash's genius for him to have developed this virtually bulletproof style against lesser players, and it's one of the reasons why Flash never ever ever ever loses to players more than one tier below him. To be perfectly honest, I wonder if Flash even prepared for these games - he's played enough TvP on Medusa to do it in his sleep, and he certainly seemed content to play "I got a ramp, free fast expo, and free 3 base on God's Garden".
But, when you bring in a top tier Protoss, such as a Stork (see their last PL matchup), Best (OSL), or the king himself Bisu (see GOM, PL) who won't make the small mistakes that put you impossibly behind against the Flash strat, the landscape changes completely.
Imagine the Medusa game with Bisu playing - there's no way Bisu loses that shuttle, and there's no way Bisu thinks he has Stasis when he doesn't (Bisu likely avoids EMP). In addition, Bisu would have had far better macro and probably found a whole in Flash's turret maze (or done some elevator multitasking that only he can pull off). All of a sudden that's a totally different game.
Even though Stork has been terrible lately, I'm still looking forward to Flash vs Stork tomorrow because it's always nice to see an elite Protoss player play against Flash. Below a certain level it's just a steamroll (see Horang, Pure, Reach recently), but above it, games get extremely interesting. I just can't see Flash 3-0ing Bisu, which makes me wonder if Fantasy's style isn't more resilient at the higher levels, and if offense isn't more resilient in elite series play.
One thing's for sure - Flash's TvP is as close as you can get to being invincible in a matchup when played against a lesser players. To me at least, Flash IS slumping in the sense that he's just executing the optimized build he created and that's it. There are 2 Flash's that show up to a game. One that just mindlessly does the build relative to the other Flash, who constantly reads and adapts even in the smallest of ways to his opponent. Flash #1 has near perfect execution in a standard game and steamrolls anyone non-S class. But without the intelligence that Flash #2 has behind the play, not just the build, he can't take on the top players very well. Bisu said it once in an interview that Flash is too stubborn and robotic sometimes and that's very true. It's almost like a curse that Flash's bulletproof robo-builds are so good that only the very best of the best progamers can beat them, because if nothing else it just encourages his style. Unless Flash is playing Bisu (the ultimate multitask measuring stick) all the time in practice, he's probably barely even getting any valuable feedback on his TvP. Flash needs a change of scenery imo, aka switch teams! =D His style has evolved to the point of perfection but his overall play has stagnated. JD and Bisu>Flash right now imo. I feel the reason why teams like CJ and SKT are so good throughout the years is because of their deeper lineup. Multiple good players with different styles that push each other to learn and adapt to completely new things. If you haven't noticed, a new mid-game dropship trend has started to show up in TvP. Best examples of this is Fantasy vs. Pure in proleague and Iris vs. Stats today on God's Garden. Looks like: port off 2 base->increase vulture production->extra minerals into 3rd cc->expo behind dropship harass->3base terran vs 3 base toss-> ferry tanks and vultures nonstop to deny toss's 4th + vulture runbys in main. The style in those games are like the next evolution of Flash's tvp. I just don't think KTF has what it takes to continue to develop and stay one step ahead of the metagame like that. It's just Flash. And that makes me sad.
That style isn't new at all, in fact it's very very old school (Think old NaDa games). It's being revived on God's Garden because of the cliffable third.
The build flash played is a hard counter to 2 base carrier, I mean what more do you want.
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Flash is the hard counter to 2 base carrier. 8)
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On May 17 2009 21:52 samachking wrote:Because of twins, JD, and Terrans cheesing him left and right.
Flash's Achilles' heel is his ZvT no one from the three zergs mentioned above has cheesed him , the only time Jaedong did was Flash's fault .
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That's not really an achilles heel. Flash is probably the only Terran to justifiably stand toe to toe with Jaedong when he was hot.
Vice versa, actually.
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Well, he did unexpectedley lose to both GGPlay and Luxury when he was a clear favorite.
Same thing with how Jaedong loses to protoss (Backho, han) and Bisu loses to zerg.
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On May 18 2009 00:27 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 21:52 samachking wrote:On May 17 2009 21:50 SuperArc wrote:
How can Flash only have won one OSL? Because of twins, JD, and Terrans cheesing him left and right. Flash's Achilles' heel is his ZvT no one from the three zergs mentioned above has cheesed him , the only time Jaedong did was Flash's fault .
Sorry for grammar mistake, I never meant that the twins and JD actually cheesed Flash, well Yarnc did in 1 game in MSL but thats it. But its every friggin goddamn terran cheesing flash left and right, and he deserves it too sometimes because of his mass 14cc.
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Noobville17922 Posts
Well atleast i was right about MVP vs Shine
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Flash needs better teammates to practice with, only way he'll improve more as KTF is sucking hardcore.
On another note, All the players I thought were going to win won
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Mantoss 
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On May 18 2009 02:04 Nemesis wrote:
Flash needs better teammates to practice with, only way he'll improve more as KTF is sucking hardcore.
Disagree, consider the fact that Jaedong shreds things up with Oz practice partners
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For the first time, the games turned out how I thought they would hehe. I'm glad flash won.
I think the reason flash has flashes of greatness and then loses a bunch is his inability to deal with a heavy work schedule. He has to go to high school and play a ton of SC.
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United States11393 Posts
On May 17 2009 21:49 dt4ever wrote:Sad day
You mean happy day.*
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United States20666 Posts
Ah... Reach.
At least he loses like a man. There is no cowering for him.
I'm still sad about the Tau Cross game though. He HAD that thing.
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On May 18 2009 00:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:
That's not really an achilles heel. Flash is probably the only Terran to justifiably stand toe to toe with Jaedong when he was hot.
Vice versa, actually.
You forget  Sheis
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United States2186 Posts
On May 18 2009 00:06 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 23:05 Gliche wrote:On May 17 2009 22:25 darktreb wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2009 22:14 Gliche wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 22:06 darktreb wrote:
I'm a huge Flash fan and he won easily, so there's not much more to ask for. However, before you say that when Flash plays like this, he's invincible, it should be noted that Flash's playstyle really "cliffs" in a sense that Protoss players below a certain level have no chance, not just to win the game, but look like they had ANY chance whatsoever of winning the game. Like, you get the feeling that Flash knows he's a far superior player mechanically than Reach, and therefore has no problem playing his pure turtle style for the safest possible win against a lesser player. I mean, if you can't match Flash's macro and can't kill him early, how can you possibly beat this strat? Honestly, it's a testament to Flash's genius for him to have developed this virtually bulletproof style against lesser players, and it's one of the reasons why Flash never ever ever ever loses to players more than one tier below him. To be perfectly honest, I wonder if Flash even prepared for these games - he's played enough TvP on Medusa to do it in his sleep, and he certainly seemed content to play "I got a ramp, free fast expo, and free 3 base on God's Garden".
But, when you bring in a top tier Protoss, such as a Stork (see their last PL matchup), Best (OSL), or the king himself Bisu (see GOM, PL) who won't make the small mistakes that put you impossibly behind against the Flash strat, the landscape changes completely.
Imagine the Medusa game with Bisu playing - there's no way Bisu loses that shuttle, and there's no way Bisu thinks he has Stasis when he doesn't (Bisu likely avoids EMP). In addition, Bisu would have had far better macro and probably found a whole in Flash's turret maze (or done some elevator multitasking that only he can pull off). All of a sudden that's a totally different game.
Even though Stork has been terrible lately, I'm still looking forward to Flash vs Stork tomorrow because it's always nice to see an elite Protoss player play against Flash. Below a certain level it's just a steamroll (see Horang, Pure, Reach recently), but above it, games get extremely interesting. I just can't see Flash 3-0ing Bisu, which makes me wonder if Fantasy's style isn't more resilient at the higher levels, and if offense isn't more resilient in elite series play.
One thing's for sure - Flash's TvP is as close as you can get to being invincible in a matchup when played against a lesser players. To me at least, Flash IS slumping in the sense that he's just executing the optimized build he created and that's it. There are 2 Flash's that show up to a game. One that just mindlessly does the build relative to the other Flash, who constantly reads and adapts even in the smallest of ways to his opponent. Flash #1 has near perfect execution in a standard game and steamrolls anyone non-S class. But without the intelligence that Flash #2 has behind the play, not just the build, he can't take on the top players very well. Bisu said it once in an interview that Flash is too stubborn and robotic sometimes and that's very true. It's almost like a curse that Flash's bulletproof robo-builds are so good that only the very best of the best progamers can beat them, because if nothing else it just encourages his style. Unless Flash is playing Bisu (the ultimate multitask measuring stick) all the time in practice, he's probably barely even getting any valuable feedback on his TvP. Flash needs a change of scenery imo, aka switch teams! =D His style has evolved to the point of perfection but his overall play has stagnated. JD and Bisu>Flash right now imo. I feel the reason why teams like CJ and SKT are so good throughout the years is because of their deeper lineup. Multiple good players with different styles that push each other to learn and adapt to completely new things. If you haven't noticed, a new mid-game dropship trend has started to show up in TvP. Best examples of this is Fantasy vs. Pure in proleague and Iris vs. Stats today on God's Garden. Looks like: port off 2 base->increase vulture production->extra minerals into 3rd cc->expo behind dropship harass->3base terran vs 3 base toss-> ferry tanks and vultures nonstop to deny toss's 4th + vulture runbys in main. The style in those games are like the next evolution of Flash's tvp. I just don't think KTF has what it takes to continue to develop and stay one step ahead of the metagame like that. It's just Flash. And that makes me sad. That style isn't new at all, in fact it's very very old school (Think old NaDa games). It's being revived on God's Garden because of the cliffable third. The build flash played is a hard counter to 2 base carrier, I mean what more do you want.
That's a new iloveoov build. It first got used in the opening week of winner's league in iloveoov vs rage. Nada never went for a 3rd cc off of 3 factories, didn't rush the fast armories then either, and while I'm less certain I don't think he ever got an academy/port off of 1 fact after expanding. It's a very good build and has nothing to do with Gods garden.
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EPT
