EPTOn May 17 2009 21:55 iLoveKTF wrote:
This was TvP day. Next broadcast will be the ZvP day.
This was TvP day. Next broadcast will be the ZvP day.
Much and Shuttle should be able to win their games
[GOM] Ro32, Day 2 - Page 39
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
Much and Shuttle should be able to win their games | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
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Gliche
United States811 Posts
On May 17 2009 21:55 Shikyo wrote: Let's just say that if you in a TvP build the third command center at 40 supply when you're on 1 factory, it's got to backfire sometime. the problem is: Flash is so good that I'm almost positive only Bisu has ever taken his tvp on in a standard game and won. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On May 17 2009 21:51 Frits wrote: flash has a history of extremely hard draws i cant think of any other reason Schedules and hard slumps after being overexhausted (like right now). Flash is slumping pretty badly but even when slumping he still somehow never loses to c/b players...no idea why. | ||
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exkgb
United States504 Posts
On May 17 2009 21:57 Gliche wrote: the problem is: Flash is so good that I'm almost positive only Bisu has ever taken his tvp on in a standard game and won. Stork / Jangbi /BeSt ( while he was still good...) have done it too. In fact I think Stork/Jangbi/Much has stronger PvT than Bisu. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On May 17 2009 21:57 Gliche wrote: the problem is: Flash is so good that I'm almost positive only Bisu has ever taken his tvp on in a standard game and won. I'm pretty sure Stork and Jangbi have (not sure about Best). I know for a fact Stork beat him a lot before. | ||
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dt4ever
Moldova184 Posts
On May 17 2009 21:57 Gliche wrote: the problem is: Flash is so good that I'm almost positive only Bisu has ever taken his tvp on in a standard game and won. Well stork did take 2 games off flash in the GSI, so not only Bisu. Though he did lose the series... | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On May 17 2009 21:57 Gliche wrote: the problem is: Flash is so good that I'm almost positive only Bisu has ever taken his tvp on in a standard game and won. Of course, I was saying that in response to people wondering why he ever lost. It's not like the Protoss has to play completely standard, and sometimes he can be broken since he'll have so few units early on. EDIT: But how come everyone says Flash is slumping hard? He's like 7-3 last 10 not counting this etc. It's not that big of a slump really. Kind of like "Jaedong playing bad and doing nothing" while going 8-2(wtf JWD needs to get out of PR.) | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On May 17 2009 21:59 dt4ever wrote: Well stork did take 2 games off flash in the GSI, so not only Bisu. Though he did lose the series... Stork being 9-7 vs Flash says differently. Stork and Jangbi and BIsu are pretty much the only people that can go against Flash toe to toe, although right now with the khan boys slumping and Bisu getting mauled by Fantays like that I dont think even they can touch flash. | ||
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DoX.)
Singapore6164 Posts
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dt4ever
Moldova184 Posts
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
But, when you bring in a top tier Protoss, such as a Stork (see their last PL matchup), Best (OSL), or the king himself Bisu (see GOM, PL) who won't make the small mistakes that put you impossibly behind against the Flash strat, the landscape changes completely. Imagine the Medusa game with Bisu playing - there's no way Bisu loses that shuttle, and there's no way Bisu thinks he has Stasis when he doesn't (Bisu likely avoids EMP). In addition, Bisu would have had far better macro and probably found a whole in Flash's turret maze (or done some elevator multitasking that only he can pull off). All of a sudden that's a totally different game. Even though Stork has been terrible lately, I'm still looking forward to Flash vs Stork tomorrow because it's always nice to see an elite Protoss player play against Flash. Below a certain level it's just a steamroll (see Horang, Pure, Reach recently), but above it, games get extremely interesting. I just can't see Flash 3-0ing Bisu, which makes me wonder if Fantasy's style isn't more resilient at the higher levels, and if offense isn't more resilient in elite series play. One thing's for sure - Flash's TvP is as close as you can get to being invincible in a matchup when played against a lesser players. | ||
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fnaticNoname
India858 Posts
Sad for the ManToss | ||
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dt4ever
Moldova184 Posts
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
On May 17 2009 22:06 darktreb wrote: I'm a huge Flash fan and he won easily, so there's not much more to ask for. However, before you say that when Flash plays like this, he's invincible, it should be noted that Flash's playstyle really "cliffs" in a sense that Protoss players below a certain level have no chance, not just to win the game, but look like they had ANY chance whatsoever of winning the game. Like, you get the feeling that Flash knows he's a far superior player mechanically than Reach, and therefore has no problem playing his pure turtle style for the safest possible win against a lesser player. I mean, if you can't match Flash's macro and can't kill him early, how can you possibly beat this strat? Honestly, it's a testament to Flash's genius for him to have developed this virtually bulletproof style against lesser players, and it's one of the reasons why Flash never ever ever ever loses to players more than one tier below him. To be perfectly honest, I wonder if Flash even prepared for these games - he's played enough TvP on Medusa to do it in his sleep, and he certainly seemed content to play "I got a ramp, free fast expo, and free 3 base on God's Garden". But, when you bring in a top tier Protoss, such as a Stork (see their last PL matchup), Best (OSL), or the king himself Bisu (see GOM, PL) who won't make the small mistakes that put you impossibly behind against the Flash strat, the landscape changes completely. Imagine the Medusa game with Bisu playing - there's no way Bisu loses that shuttle, and there's no way Bisu thinks he has Stasis when he doesn't (Bisu likely avoids EMP). In addition, Bisu would have had far better macro and probably found a whole in Flash's turret maze (or done some elevator multitasking that only he can pull off). All of a sudden that's a totally different game. Even though Stork has been terrible lately, I'm still looking forward to Flash vs Stork tomorrow because it's always nice to see an elite Protoss player play against Flash. Below a certain level it's just a steamroll (see Horang, Pure, Reach recently), but above it, games get extremely interesting. I just can't see Flash 3-0ing Bisu, which makes me wonder if Fantasy's style isn't more resilient at the higher levels, and if offense isn't more resilient in elite series play. One thing's for sure - Flash's TvP is as close as you can get to being invincible in a matchup when played against a lesser players. Reach didn't really lose that shuttle, flash somehow caught it. And no one would have expected a 3-0 against Bisu from fantasy either. | ||
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Gliche
United States811 Posts
On May 17 2009 22:06 darktreb wrote: I'm a huge Flash fan and he won easily, so there's not much more to ask for. However, before you say that when Flash plays like this, he's invincible, it should be noted that Flash's playstyle really "cliffs" in a sense that Protoss players below a certain level have no chance, not just to win the game, but look like they had ANY chance whatsoever of winning the game. Like, you get the feeling that Flash knows he's a far superior player mechanically than Reach, and therefore has no problem playing his pure turtle style for the safest possible win against a lesser player. I mean, if you can't match Flash's macro and can't kill him early, how can you possibly beat this strat? Honestly, it's a testament to Flash's genius for him to have developed this virtually bulletproof style against lesser players, and it's one of the reasons why Flash never ever ever ever loses to players more than one tier below him. To be perfectly honest, I wonder if Flash even prepared for these games - he's played enough TvP on Medusa to do it in his sleep, and he certainly seemed content to play "I got a ramp, free fast expo, and free 3 base on God's Garden". But, when you bring in a top tier Protoss, such as a Stork (see their last PL matchup), Best (OSL), or the king himself Bisu (see GOM, PL) who won't make the small mistakes that put you impossibly behind against the Flash strat, the landscape changes completely. Imagine the Medusa game with Bisu playing - there's no way Bisu loses that shuttle, and there's no way Bisu thinks he has Stasis when he doesn't (Bisu likely avoids EMP). In addition, Bisu would have had far better macro and probably found a whole in Flash's turret maze (or done some elevator multitasking that only he can pull off). All of a sudden that's a totally different game. Even though Stork has been terrible lately, I'm still looking forward to Flash vs Stork tomorrow because it's always nice to see an elite Protoss player play against Flash. Below a certain level it's just a steamroll (see Horang, Pure, Reach recently), but above it, games get extremely interesting. I just can't see Flash 3-0ing Bisu, which makes me wonder if Fantasy's style isn't more resilient at the higher levels, and if offense isn't more resilient in elite series play. One thing's for sure - Flash's TvP is as close as you can get to being invincible in a matchup when played against a lesser players. To me at least, Flash IS slumping in the sense that he's just executing the optimized build he created and that's it. There are 2 Flash's that show up to a game. One that just mindlessly does the build relative to the other Flash, who constantly reads and adapts even in the smallest of ways to his opponent. Flash #1 has near perfect execution in a standard game and steamrolls anyone non-S class. But without the intelligence that Flash #2 has behind the play, not just the build, he can't take on the top players very well. Bisu said it once in an interview that Flash is too stubborn and robotic sometimes and that's very true. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
On May 17 2009 22:11 dt4ever wrote: On a side note, wtf is up with the brackets? There already was a stx vs stx match (Kal vs by.hero) and if Shuttle wins his game vs zerbong(which he should) there will be two more stx vs stx in the Ro.16 (Kal vs July and Hwasin vs Shuttle). I know there were many STX players, but wtf, there is noone from STX in the right side of the bracket... SKT1 had all 3 players on the same side in the OSL. | ||
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
On May 17 2009 21:57 Ver wrote: Schedules and hard slumps after being overexhausted (like right now). Flash is slumping pretty badly but even when slumping he still somehow never loses to c/b players...no idea why. My uneducated impression is that it has to do with his style that he's developed. Flash has played such an enormous number of games at such a young age and in such a short period of time (seriously, it has only been about a year and a half since he was just another face in the crowd ... yet it feels like he's played in a thousand televised games and been around for years) that perhaps he's adapted by developing these ultra-safe styles that are virtually bulletproof against lesser players. His TvP is the best example of this - a Protoss player that can't multitask well enough to match Flash's macro while still denting his near-perfect defense has absolutely no chance of beating him in a game. If you let Flash turtle his way to his push with minimal damage taken, you basically can't win without somehow outplaying him significantly during the push, which he's also near-perfect at. While his TvZ seems to be undergoing some changes these days (perhaps in adaptation to the new maps), there was a time earlier this year where he played this mass marine (to the extent that he was delaying Vessels for it and barely even pretending to feign a Sunken break) style that was extremely hard to dent with Mutas and basically allowed him to safely roll Zerg players after a certain time (this even worked against Jaedong twice, and even though Jaedong later won a crucial RH3 game in Winners League, it was a hidden expo that made a ton of difference). Even his TvT reflects this mentality ironically through his penchant for 14CC (which has subsided, but remember the Lomo and ForGG series' in MSL?). In TvT, if Flash successfully pulls off a 14CC without taking significant damage, it's probably nearly impossible to beat him. He probably realized this at one point and decided his defense was good enough to get him to his 14CC all the time, only this turned out to be untrue as Terrans got much smarter about countering it. It's a real shame because he also seems to have the best overall Dropship play of any Terran in TvT. | ||
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dt4ever
Moldova184 Posts
On May 17 2009 22:15 konadora wrote: SKT1 had all 3 players on the same side in the OSL. Did they meet in the Ro.32/16? | ||
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
On May 17 2009 22:14 Gliche wrote: To me at least, Flash IS slumping in the sense that he's just executing the optimized build he created and that's it. There are 2 Flash's that show up to a game. One that just mindlessly does the build relative to the other Flash, who constantly reads and adapts even in the smallest of ways to his opponent. Flash #1 has near perfect execution in a standard game and steamrolls anyone non-S class. But without the intelligence that Flash #2 has behind the play, not just the build, he can't take on the top players very well. Bisu said it once in an interview that Flash is too stubborn and robotic sometimes and that's very true. It's almost like a curse that Flash's bulletproof robo-builds are so good that only the very best of the best progamers can beat them, because if nothing else it just encourages his style. Unless Flash is playing Bisu (the ultimate multitask measuring stick) all the time in practice, he's probably barely even getting any valuable feedback on his TvP. | ||
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