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On April 05 2009 15:48 Jaeden wrote:
stop crying anti-fans. That vulture was way before mutas so he could do some pretty good damage and delay the mutas. What's really extraordinary is how JD spotted, and took care of it xD
No I don't think it would have done enough damage to make a difference. Two vultures maybe, but not one. And if fantasy had A-moved instead of right clicking he would have easily taken out the oh-so-scary group of 1 zergling + 2 drones Jaedong sent at it. And it still wouldn't have mattered.
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On April 05 2009 16:15 latent wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 15:48 Jaeden wrote:
stop crying anti-fans. That vulture was way before mutas so he could do some pretty good damage and delay the mutas. What's really extraordinary is how JD spotted, and took care of it xD No I don't think it would have done enough damage to make a difference. Two vultures maybe, but not one. And if fantasy had A-moved instead of right clicking he would have easily taken out the oh-so-scary group of 1 zergling + 2 drones Jaedong sent at it. And it still wouldn't have mattered.
how is every post you make wrong
he had no tech and mutas werent coming soon, its near impossible to kill a vulture with drones and slow lings on open ground. at the very least he would have had a handful of drones off mining until mutas were out, he probably woulda lost a couple of drones, and he woulda had to spend larvae on lings. and no had he a-moved he woulda died too, 2 lings and a drone kill a vulture far faster than it gets off 6 shots. his best bet was to try to sneak around, as there wasnt really room there to patrol micro. jaedong blocked him off with the drone, there wasnt anything he could do. but it most definitely would have mattered.
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Well, I won't say it was one of the best series ever, but it clearly did not suck.
First of all the 2hatch-thing. One should notice that JD drone scouted every game to search for proxies, no other top zerg does that constantly. With the scouting information he gathered he knew that he did not have to expect Bio or standard play. If Fantasy would not have gone some kind of mech variant every game, JD would also have played differently. JD clearly is not afraid to play standard-Bio zvt games against Fantasy. He 2 hatched because he thought it is the right thing to do against Fantasys mech play.
Second of all, even if the games have not been that close, I wonder if some people here are not able to see or appreciate the great plays we have seen:
Game 1, Fantasys timing was absolutely flawless. His build hold off the really early hydra-push and also the Muta follow-up, with nearly no units, It was phenomenal timing and play and I can appreciate that even if it is rape afterwards.
Game 2 was meh, JD played so badly, it wasn't even funny. Props for Fantasy for doing everything right after his proxy was scouted and facing an early pool.
Game 3: This early 5 Hydra 6 Muta push you do not see from other players, JD used it against Flashs mech in PL before and was able to win with it. Even though the game turned out to be really one sided, I first off all like the build to counter fast expo mech. Furthermore, so few mutas and hydras against some turrets, some scvs, a ramp and reinforcing units. Those zerg units are so fragile and if he does not do a ton of damage the game is over. JD did such a great job of keeping his troops alive, targeting the right things, I thought it was great.
Game 4: I don't agree with Fantasys build, because after 3times of 2hatch, I don't believe 2port wraiths is suited to take JD down. I really liked JDs play to take out the scv building the factory that was so strong (sestimating if he can kill it in time and doing so) and delayed fantasys timing by 20-30 seconds, which is of course not good if you plan to go wraiths.
Game 5, come on that was so awesome. The maphack vulture jump, I have not seen anything like this before. 2 lings 1 drone, how minimalistic. He seemed to know exactly what is coming and when it is coming and how to fend it off. Mutas hatching in the second the vulture drops hit your base is also great timing, he must have studied these terran builds forever.
All in all, the games in general might not have been so great. But there have been a lot of small really beautiful plays which really made the games enjoyable to me. You could clearly see how much time those guys spent preparing and how accurate their preparation was.
Additionally (as already has been said): It was a final, it had the actual best player on it and it went to 5 games.
I do not understand how someone could not enjoy such a final (beneath Fantasy fans of course).
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Jaedong is a cheese eating monster.
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On April 05 2009 17:52 Psyqo wrote:
Jaedong is a cheese eating monster.
Did you watch the series? and did you watch his games against SkyHigh?
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On April 05 2009 16:21 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 16:15 latent wrote:On April 05 2009 15:48 Jaeden wrote:
stop crying anti-fans. That vulture was way before mutas so he could do some pretty good damage and delay the mutas. What's really extraordinary is how JD spotted, and took care of it xD No I don't think it would have done enough damage to make a difference. Two vultures maybe, but not one. And if fantasy had A-moved instead of right clicking he would have easily taken out the oh-so-scary group of 1 zergling + 2 drones Jaedong sent at it. And it still wouldn't have mattered. how is every post you make wrong he had no tech and mutas werent coming soon, its near impossible to kill a vulture with drones and slow lings on open ground. at the very least he would have had a handful of drones off mining until mutas were out, he probably woulda lost a couple of drones, and he woulda had to spend larvae on lings. and no had he a-moved he woulda died too, 2 lings and a drone kill a vulture far faster than it gets off 6 shots. his best bet was to try to sneak around, as there wasnt really room there to patrol micro. jaedong blocked him off with the drone, there wasnt anything he could do. but it most definitely would have mattered.
Idra's right, look for the youtube vid where Nada managed to sneak in 2 vults in a zerg main and delays the zerg until the zerg got a muta.
Now, imagine a single vult sneaking inside, a zerg main, and the zerg hasn't laid down the spire. I'm sure Fantasy can force a drone pull and snipe 2-4 drones. Sure it doesn't rape drones but forcing a maynard is already something. It's not at all negligible, and that drone could have saved Jaedong.
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Hm.. why did JD pull the drone in the first place? If the vulture didnt jump, then that drone would have been wasted.
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On April 05 2009 21:25 Rhaegar99 wrote:
Hm.. why did JD pull the drone in the first place? If the vulture didnt jump, then that drone would have been wasted.
Because he saw a SCV being around at that time, and that SCV was supposed to be used for a floating trick...
Is it just me or JD won game 4 and game 5 to a very large extent because of luck.
In game 4, the overlord scouting the fact was lucky because he just changed the direction to fantasy 's base after realizing using drone scouting. The starport spotted afterward wasnt important at all because Fantasy almost had no choice but going 2 starports after the proxy fact got scouted. It was something in his mind that he would have been destroyed if he went back to standard MnM on one base
In game 5, that drone+lings blocking vulture was great but come on, it would have made huge difference if that vulture had come 1 second earlier so that he had enough space to patrol micro. And how come JD had such a perfect timing given the long distance from his base to the floating point?
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On April 06 2009 00:07 economist_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 21:25 Rhaegar99 wrote:
Hm.. why did JD pull the drone in the first place? If the vulture didnt jump, then that drone would have been wasted. Because he saw a SCV being around at that time, and that SCV was supposed to be used for a floating trick... Is it just me or JD won game 4 and game 5 to a very large extent because of luck. In game 4, the overlord scouting the fact was lucky because he just changed the direction to fantasy 's base after realizing using drone scouting. The starport spotted afterward wasnt important at all because Fantasy almost had no choice but going 2 starports after the proxy fact got scouted. It was something in his mind that he would have been destroyed if he went back to standard MnM on one base In game 5, that drone+lings blocking vulture was great but come on, it would have made huge difference if that vulture had come 1 second earlier so that he had enough space to patrol micro. And how come JD had such a perfect timing given the long distance from his base to the floating point?
luck yes....but not only because of it.
if the vulture had made it 1-3 seconds earlier... we could say fantasy was lucky on jumping the vulture on his first try (i've seen many attempts on vulture jumps and can say that it is not a 50/50 of getting it to jump... if anything it hardly ever works before getting spotted.
and game 4... it was fantasy's fault for building his fac where the ol path would be. he shouldve known better that that spot is in a potential OL pathway
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On April 06 2009 00:07 economist_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 21:25 Rhaegar99 wrote:
Hm.. why did JD pull the drone in the first place? If the vulture didnt jump, then that drone would have been wasted. Because he saw a SCV being around at that time, and that SCV was supposed to be used for a floating trick... Is it just me or JD won game 4 and game 5 to a very large extent because of luck. In game 4, the overlord scouting the fact was lucky because he just changed the direction to fantasy 's base after realizing using drone scouting. The starport spotted afterward wasnt important at all because Fantasy almost had no choice but going 2 starports after the proxy fact got scouted. It was something in his mind that he would have been destroyed if he went back to standard MnM on one base In game 5, that drone+lings blocking vulture was great but come on, it would have made huge difference if that vulture had come 1 second earlier so that he had enough space to patrol micro. And how come JD had such a perfect timing given the long distance from his base to the floating point?
I LOL'ed at this.
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Seems to that L L W W W might be the new L W W W!
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Really though, that vulture is pretty difficult to trick through and Fantasy himself got quite lucky by tricking it through the first time he tried. You can always go "what if" after every game.
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On April 06 2009 00:07 economist_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 21:25 Rhaegar99 wrote:
Hm.. why did JD pull the drone in the first place? If the vulture didnt jump, then that drone would have been wasted. Because he saw a SCV being around at that time, and that SCV was supposed to be used for a floating trick... Is it just me or JD won game 4 and game 5 to a very large extent because of luck. In game 4, the overlord scouting the fact was lucky because he just changed the direction to fantasy 's base after realizing using drone scouting. The starport spotted afterward wasnt important at all because Fantasy almost had no choice but going 2 starports after the proxy fact got scouted. It was something in his mind that he would have been destroyed if he went back to standard MnM on one base In game 5, that drone+lings blocking vulture was great but come on, it would have made huge difference if that vulture had come 1 second earlier so that he had enough space to patrol micro. And how come JD had such a perfect timing given the long distance from his base to the floating point?
If we're playing that game, I can point to a handful of examples where Fantasy got lucky.
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how is every post you make wrong
Strange, almost every post I make agrees with what Korean (and even English) commentators say during the matches. If you think disagreeing with teamliquid members is somehow "wrong", then I can't help you there. Maybe you should win more than one match and actually learn some Korean before you go all high and mighty on me.
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On April 06 2009 03:49 latent wrote:Strange, almost every post I make agrees with what Korean (and even English) commentators say during the matches. If you think disagreeing with teamliquid members is somehow "wrong", then I can't help you there. Maybe you should win more than one match before you go all high and mighty on me.
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show me a commentator who says a vulture getting in jaedongs base wouldntve been game changing and ill show you someone from sc2gg.
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On April 06 2009 03:49 latent wrote:
Maybe you should win more than one match before you go all high and mighty on me.
u are a bastard
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I'm referring to "all your comments are wrong". It ticks me off when my analyses are swept into a category by a few know-it-all amateurs just because they can't handle the idea that someone might disagree with their claims to endless knowledge.
Whenever I provide an argument instead of receiving a rational counterpoint to my detailed points, a few immature users throw ad hominems left and right, and no one has the courage to call them on their juvenile behavior.
And I'm also ticked off at the outcome of the match.
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Heh, commentators aren't usually as good as gamers juding games anyway. The vulture would have cause alot of damage. It was awesome timing by jaedong, and that vulture would probably have killed alot of drones and minetime and fantasy would have won the game. Vulture floating there on the first try when jaedong had no lings/speed and was waiting for spire is just awesome for terran.
I donä't know about your comments being wrong etc but in this case I don't think you realize how much damage that vult would have done in this specific scenario.
Also, that thing about luck.
Imo jaedong was abit lucky he chose zerg that last match since if he was protoss he wouldn't have had any marines with his probe and the vulture would have gotten into his base before his spire was done and would probably have given fantasy a 4-0 lead.
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On April 06 2009 04:05 latent wrote:
I'm referring to "all your comments are wrong". It ticks me off when my analyses are swept into a category by a few know-it-all amateurs just because they can't handle the idea that someone might disagree with their claims to endless knowledge.
yes but what u say was still unnecessary. I hope u know that even if Idra is bm, he still has a CLEARLY better game-knowledge than you...or me.
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On April 06 2009 04:05 latent wrote:
I'm referring to "all your comments are wrong". It ticks me off when my analyses are swept into a category by a few know-it-all amateurs just because they can't handle the idea that someone might disagree with their claims to endless knowledge.
And I'm also ticked off at the outcome of the match.
except your analyses arent swept into a category. pretty much every time you post about a bw game multiple people pick apart everything you say and explain exactly why its wrong. if people just flat out said 'you're a dumbass whos always wrong' then you might have a point. but i said why you're wrong, and then made the comment that you're wrong.... a whole fucking lot. theres nothing wrong with that and unless you can address something i said and explain how you werent wrong you dont have a foot to stand on.
Whenever I provide an argument instead of receiving a rational counterpoint to my detailed points, a few immature users throw ad hominems left and right, and no one has the courage to call them on their juvenile behavior.
what are you talking about? besides the first sentence my entire post was a rational counterpoint to what you said. you are the one who focused only on that first sentence instead of responding to what i said because you have no response because you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
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EPT
