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On January 04 2009 16:57 Aux1 wrote:
why do you think effor had to work so hard? because he allowed protoss to be on even bases with him lol, even bases always favors protoss, im amazed that so many people are shocked that bisu won, he was never extremely far behind
QFT
Rule #1 for ZvP - you must get ahead in bases or you'll get stomped. (that's why you double-exp when P go for FE)
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zerg is 14-14 against protoss that aren't bisu on medusa
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On January 04 2009 17:09 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 16:57 Aux1 wrote:
why do you think effor had to work so hard? because he allowed protoss to be on even bases with him lol, even bases always favors protoss, im amazed that so many people are shocked that bisu won, he was never extremely far behind QFT Rule #1 for ZvP - you must get ahead in bases or you'll get stomped. (that's why you double-exp when P go for FE)
right.
So how gosu is Effort for keeping up and almost destroying Bisus entire army on even bases?
Very.
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On January 04 2009 17:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:09 Manit0u wrote:On January 04 2009 16:57 Aux1 wrote:
why do you think effor had to work so hard? because he allowed protoss to be on even bases with him lol, even bases always favors protoss, im amazed that so many people are shocked that bisu won, he was never extremely far behind QFT Rule #1 for ZvP - you must get ahead in bases or you'll get stomped. (that's why you double-exp when P go for FE) right. So how gosu is Effort for keeping up and almost destroying Bisus entire army on even bases? Very.
yes effort is good, but he did not lose because of the map. he lost because he failed to expand and/or deny bisu expansions.
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Savior was doing well up until he threw away half his army attacking Best's 3rd (uphill against reavers and hts =/). Such a terrible decision.
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On January 04 2009 17:12 Aux1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 04 2009 17:09 Manit0u wrote:On January 04 2009 16:57 Aux1 wrote:
why do you think effor had to work so hard? because he allowed protoss to be on even bases with him lol, even bases always favors protoss, im amazed that so many people are shocked that bisu won, he was never extremely far behind QFT Rule #1 for ZvP - you must get ahead in bases or you'll get stomped. (that's why you double-exp when P go for FE) right. So how gosu is Effort for keeping up and almost destroying Bisus entire army on even bases? Very. yes effort is good, but he did not lose because of the map. he lost because he failed to expand and/or deny bisu expansions.
He denied Bisu expansions more than once.
He lost because the map imbalance tipped Bisu over the edge. I'm not saying Bisu's skill had nothing to do with it, or that map imbalance was the biggest factor. It was a factor, it mattered, and without it the end result could have been totally different.
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On January 04 2009 17:10 traced wrote:
zerg is 14-14 against protoss that aren't bisu on medusa
how many of them arent jaedong/july? This isnt about specific players, its about the trends( artosis brings in this term "metagame" which is everyone using now) What you do is analyze a zvp from macro perspective, as in both players had opportunity to establish their economies respectfully. How many games did zerg take? How many of them were vs evenly matched opponent? You dont dissect these matters, but you should. And "counting" Bisu, Kal, JD, Effort, July( basically everyone) it sure seems that zvp on this particular map favors protoss. You havent made your point yet.
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On January 04 2009 17:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:12 Aux1 wrote:On January 04 2009 17:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 04 2009 17:09 Manit0u wrote:On January 04 2009 16:57 Aux1 wrote:
why do you think effor had to work so hard? because he allowed protoss to be on even bases with him lol, even bases always favors protoss, im amazed that so many people are shocked that bisu won, he was never extremely far behind QFT Rule #1 for ZvP - you must get ahead in bases or you'll get stomped. (that's why you double-exp when P go for FE) right. So how gosu is Effort for keeping up and almost destroying Bisus entire army on even bases? Very. yes effort is good, but he did not lose because of the map. he lost because he failed to expand and/or deny bisu expansions. He denied Bisu expansions more than once. He lost because the map imbalance tipped Bisu over the edge. I'm not saying Bisu's skill had nothing to do with it, or that map imbalance was the biggest factor. It was a factor, it mattered, and without it the end result could have been totally different. He denied Bisu's expansions, but not before Bisu took down a number of his hatcheries.
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On January 04 2009 17:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:12 Aux1 wrote:On January 04 2009 17:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 04 2009 17:09 Manit0u wrote:On January 04 2009 16:57 Aux1 wrote:
why do you think effor had to work so hard? because he allowed protoss to be on even bases with him lol, even bases always favors protoss, im amazed that so many people are shocked that bisu won, he was never extremely far behind QFT Rule #1 for ZvP - you must get ahead in bases or you'll get stomped. (that's why you double-exp when P go for FE) right. So how gosu is Effort for keeping up and almost destroying Bisus entire army on even bases? Very. yes effort is good, but he did not lose because of the map. he lost because he failed to expand and/or deny bisu expansions. He denied Bisu expansions more than once. He lost because the map imbalance tipped Bisu over the edge. I'm not saying Bisu's skill had nothing to do with it, or that map imbalance was the biggest factor. It was a factor, it mattered, and without it the end result could have been totally different.
Yes, or it could have been on a different map that has better balance but Effort plays much worse on and he could have gotten thrashed. It's pointless to theorize about.
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I'm sick of all these "imba" comments when a Protoss wins. Remember that its only not long ago that Jaedong beat Bisu.
If you guys look at the interviews of the pro-gamers, non of them said that protoss or maps are imbalanced; they all admit that currently, there is simply more good protoss players around.
Yes effort played well this game and he lost. But seriously, there is no RULE that says zerg is SUPPOSE to have more bases than toss. He failed to do damage with his early drop, which let Bisu pressure him in middle game which meant that Bisu was able to expand. Sure he played brilliantly after that with the nexus snipes, army position, obs snipes and HT snipes, but he payed for his mistakes earlier.
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On January 04 2009 17:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:12 Aux1 wrote:On January 04 2009 17:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 04 2009 17:09 Manit0u wrote:On January 04 2009 16:57 Aux1 wrote:
why do you think effor had to work so hard? because he allowed protoss to be on even bases with him lol, even bases always favors protoss, im amazed that so many people are shocked that bisu won, he was never extremely far behind QFT Rule #1 for ZvP - you must get ahead in bases or you'll get stomped. (that's why you double-exp when P go for FE) right. So how gosu is Effort for keeping up and almost destroying Bisus entire army on even bases? Very. yes effort is good, but he did not lose because of the map. he lost because he failed to expand and/or deny bisu expansions. He denied Bisu expansions more than once. He lost because the map imbalance tipped Bisu over the edge. I'm not saying Bisu's skill had nothing to do with it, or that map imbalance was the biggest factor. It was a factor, it mattered, and without it the end result could have been totally different.
effort lost this game because he was outplayed in the late game plain and simple. bisu is the best pvz in the world right now and you cannot play even base as zerg and expect to win in the longrun vs almost any protoss, let alone bisu
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On January 04 2009 17:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:06 Lachrymose wrote:On January 04 2009 17:00 fusionsdf wrote:On January 04 2009 16:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 04 2009 16:55 Aux1 wrote:On January 04 2009 16:51 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
So what did we learn today?
Canata doesn't know how to win games, no matter how good he is.
s2 is a joke and must have thought he was playing ZvT or something.
sAviOr is showing some streaks of his old dominance, he just needs to brush up his late-game management.
Eff0rt is a complete and total baller, even if Bisu won. Hanging in with BISU on MEDUSA for that long is about as easy as shoving a log up your bum. how is it that every time savior loses (so every time he plays recently) savior lovers manage to say "fuck hes almost there" "he just needs to do this" savior simply isnt the same dominating player he was Did you even watch the early game? It was like 2006 again. Then his mid/late game management couldn't keep up with BeSt's macro. But he made BeSt look like a noob for a bit. sAviOr is showing what he can do again. He has been doing better recently, and showing more of what he's capable of. Look at his games v.s Pretty in GOM. He lost the series but showed some terrific micro/management. Game 1 was awesome, the game on Neo requiem could have gone either way. yep the plan was perfect and the execution was really good he just never had enough units which is what happens when you lose every single overlord on the map and other nearby maps for a significant period of time. once that happened savior fell a step behind and was chasing the game, as evidenced by his poor responses to everything best did after that. he lost too many overlords, but he did rape every single one of BeSts shuttles/corsairs which is an almost even economic disadvantage. sAviOr just couldn't do anything about the ball. He wasn't aggresive enough, tbh
the difference is losing overlords kills your supply.
losing corsairs frees up supply.
as for effort; he didnt really prevent expos from going up. he took expos down later but that is a different. he got behind where he should have been on expos when he made the fail drop which cost him a decent army and all the ovies that carried it. he had to do something exceptional to win the game from there and while he did play really well bisu was everywhere as usual and it wasnt enough. this is not a surprise and this is not the map.
(replace savior with effort in the best game and zerg wins. replace bisu with best in the effort game and zerg wins i think)
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On January 04 2009 17:10 traced wrote:
zerg is 14-14 against protoss that aren't bisu on medusa
i like how this little fact is being completely ignored
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Protoss is not imba.
It's just that the others are playing like crap and let Protoss get expansions to their heart's desire then the Zerg just get steamrolled.
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On January 04 2009 17:20 Aux1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 04 2009 17:12 Aux1 wrote:On January 04 2009 17:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 04 2009 17:09 Manit0u wrote:On January 04 2009 16:57 Aux1 wrote:
why do you think effor had to work so hard? because he allowed protoss to be on even bases with him lol, even bases always favors protoss, im amazed that so many people are shocked that bisu won, he was never extremely far behind QFT Rule #1 for ZvP - you must get ahead in bases or you'll get stomped. (that's why you double-exp when P go for FE) right. So how gosu is Effort for keeping up and almost destroying Bisus entire army on even bases? Very. yes effort is good, but he did not lose because of the map. he lost because he failed to expand and/or deny bisu expansions. He denied Bisu expansions more than once. He lost because the map imbalance tipped Bisu over the edge. I'm not saying Bisu's skill had nothing to do with it, or that map imbalance was the biggest factor. It was a factor, it mattered, and without it the end result could have been totally different. effort lost this game because he was outplayed in the late game plain and simple. bisu is the best pvz in the world right now and you cannot play even base as zerg and expect to win in the longrun vs almost any protoss, let alone bisu
And they had even bases because it the map makes it easier for P to defend the 3rd gas. This argument goes in circles. :p
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On January 04 2009 17:20 exkgb wrote:
I'm sick of all these "imba" comments when a Protoss wins. Remember that its only not long ago that Jaedong beat Bisu.
If you guys look at the interviews of the pro-gamers, non of them said that protoss or maps are imbalanced; they all admit that currently, there is simply more good protoss players around.
Yes effort played well this game and he lost. But seriously, there is no RULE that says zerg is SUPPOSE to have more bases than toss. He failed to do damage with his early drop, which let Bisu pressure him in middle game which meant that Bisu was able to expand. Sure he played brilliantly after that with the nexus snipes, army position, obs snipes and HT snipes, but he payed for his mistakes earlier.
JD vs Bisu game is not a good example for many reasons. To top it off its the only game you could list that played out somewhat standart and ended up with zerg winning. From what i seen the only zerg that dominated his opponent which made sense throughout the game was magma in recent game vs soo, but that protoss is not up to par with the infamous dragons
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On January 04 2009 17:21 uriel- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:10 traced wrote:
zerg is 14-14 against protoss that aren't bisu on medusa i like how this little fact is being completely ignored
scroll up
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On January 04 2009 17:03 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:01 food wrote:On January 04 2009 17:00 abakben wrote:Pathetic zerg fans  Always same PvZ imbalance whining. im not a zerg fan by any means. Latest trends in progaming in tvz/pvz are scaring the shit out of me. I like it entertaining, not miserable. The zerg metagame hasn't changed to catch up with the new Metal builds. When they do TvZ will be balanced. When the map pool changes PvZ results will.
With the current proleague maps we have zerg 56-44 over protoss. So I guess you mean the maps need to be made to favor protoss more?
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On January 04 2009 17:25 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:20 Aux1 wrote:On January 04 2009 17:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 04 2009 17:12 Aux1 wrote:On January 04 2009 17:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 04 2009 17:09 Manit0u wrote:On January 04 2009 16:57 Aux1 wrote:
why do you think effor had to work so hard? because he allowed protoss to be on even bases with him lol, even bases always favors protoss, im amazed that so many people are shocked that bisu won, he was never extremely far behind QFT Rule #1 for ZvP - you must get ahead in bases or you'll get stomped. (that's why you double-exp when P go for FE) right. So how gosu is Effort for keeping up and almost destroying Bisus entire army on even bases? Very. yes effort is good, but he did not lose because of the map. he lost because he failed to expand and/or deny bisu expansions. He denied Bisu expansions more than once. He lost because the map imbalance tipped Bisu over the edge. I'm not saying Bisu's skill had nothing to do with it, or that map imbalance was the biggest factor. It was a factor, it mattered, and without it the end result could have been totally different. effort lost this game because he was outplayed in the late game plain and simple. bisu is the best pvz in the world right now and you cannot play even base as zerg and expect to win in the longrun vs almost any protoss, let alone bisu And they had even bases because it the map makes it easier for P to defend the 3rd gas. This argument goes in circles. :p
yet if effort was playing the "perfect game" like a lot of people here are trying to pretend he was, he should have expanded to the other main. dont get me wrong, effort played well, but he did not lose this game because of "map imbalance" he lost because bisu outplayed him
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On January 04 2009 17:15 food wrote:artosis brings in this term "metagame" which is everyone using now
haha
i'm just saying the map isn't unplayable. it's main weaknesses are a susceptibility to the mid-game timing push, which didn't happen, the harassable cliff, which was defended, and the tough to defend 3rd gas, which was never pushed until VERY late, only harassed. map had very little to do with the loss.
it's funny someone mentioned the jaedong game because i distinctly remember people praising jaedong for winning on a protoss favored map like destination, when in fact zerg has more wins in the matchup on the map...
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.wag.co.kr/files/attach/images/257/571/6.jpg)
