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On November 22 2008 19:43 Hot_Bid wrote:
Jangbi lost because of the TL cheerful. He was up 1-0 then the cheerful made its appearance and immediately Jangbi lost 3 games. Wanna know why!?!??! GTR made the image but I embedded "SAMSUNG LOSS" in invisible pixels in it, and Jangbi played with it. Bisu split check with me 50/50 ok?
... How could we have been so blind?
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United States10774 Posts
On November 22 2008 19:41 DM20 wrote:Show nested quote + down to timing and build, too. bisu opts for shuttle-obs-reaver attack while jangbi does obs-reaver-expo build (which is anti 4 gate build) very close, bisu wins. if he failed to kill him with that attack, which was very possible if it arrived a few seconds later, jangbi would have won.
A timing attack coming down to timing, no never.
did you totally ignore the build part, you jackass? the only reason why bisu got that timing opportunity was the order they decided to make units in robotics
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PvP is all about getting a build order advantage due to sheer, dumb luck and holding onto it. That's it. That's the "skill" of the matchup. Blindly pick something, and don't fuck up if it turns out in your favor.
Bisu won the dice rolls. You can now go about your business, elated or infuriated at the inequities of this cruel, cruel world.
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On November 22 2008 19:43 Hot_Bid wrote:
Jangbi lost because of the TL cheerful. He was up 1-0 then the cheerful made its appearance and immediately Jangbi lost 3 games. Wanna know why!?!??! GTR made the image but I embedded "SAMSUNG LOSS" in invisible pixels in it, and Jangbi played with it. Bisu split check with me 50/50 ok?
True story. We all know GTR made it for Jangbi during Blizzcon, but was able to see the MSL Jangbi-Bisu finals with his seer powers. He probably pissed all over the cheerful.
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On November 22 2008 19:43 Hot_Bid wrote:
Jangbi lost because of the TL cheerful. He was up 1-0 then the cheerful made its appearance and immediately Jangbi lost 3 games. Wanna know why!?!??! GTR made the image but I embedded "SAMSUNG LOSS" in invisible pixels in it, and Jangbi played with it. Bisu split check with me 50/50 ok?
I knew it that you made something to that cheerful.
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Now all we need is for a protoss win in GOM.
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9071 Posts
what dice rolls and luck are you talking about? yes, they are both a huge factor maybe more than in any other MU but how could you explain BeSt and Storks PvP record with luck? There is nothing special about PvPing , you can be good at it or you can suck.
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United States43989 Posts
On November 22 2008 19:46 DJEtterStyle wrote:
PvP is all about getting a build order advantage due to sheer, dumb luck and holding onto it. That's it. That's the "skill" of the matchup. Blindly pick something, and don't fuck up if it turns out in your favor.
Bisu won the dice rolls. You can now go about your business, elated or infuriated at the inequities of this cruel, cruel world.
His build on Destination exploited what JangBi saw in the semifinals. He knew Bisu rushed there before and therefore played safe whereas Bisu played the counter of JangBi's safe opening. It was an educated guess rather than luck.
Game 3 no-one in their right mind goes 2 gate on Byzantium so a proxy 2 gate will always put you in a good position. The options are 1 gate or 2 gate proxy and JangBi was unlikely to 2 gate proxy again after the semis. From there Bisu correctly countered JangBi's counter to it. Again, it's not luck if you've considered the options and found your risk to be very likely to work.
Game 4 I believe mind games came into it. They opened in a mirror and both played very safe against all the potential cheese options. A 1 gate build would be crushed by a reavergoon timing attack. A dark rush would fail horribly. A 4 gate goon build would fail even worse. The only difference was that Bisu was content to match JangBi's timing and enter the midgame even whereas JangBi was looking for that economic advantage. I think being 1-2 down made JangBi feel he needed a build order advantage and I think Bisu guessed he would take a risk under the pressure. Bisu did not blindly stumble into a very precise timing attack. He correctly read JangBi's build from the metagame, despite having very little real information.
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United States10774 Posts
damn it. bisu took a risk by going shuttle first, which would be vulnerable against four gate build, whereas jangbi was more conservative and went reaver first just in case. bisu took full advantage of this, i guess. that's why i hate pvp on non-ramp maps...the luck factor increases so much.
i don't wanna take anything away from bisu though, he's great!
congratulations kty
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Im not the pvp expert but jangbi's first observer died before scouting anything game 2 and 4, might have something to do with it?
Also deciple i think pvp is more luckbased than other mu's wouldn't you say?
Specially when you have two people on top of their game.
That makes pvping special.
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On November 22 2008 19:37 disciple wrote:and btw I AM the happiest panda alive
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bisu also probably figured a 4 gate was highly unlikely after stork announced to the world skt protoss was vulnerable to it on medusa, and after free tried it against him.
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United States43989 Posts
On November 22 2008 19:52 OneOther wrote:
damn it. bisu took a risk by going shuttle first, which would be vulnerable against four gate build, whereas jangbi was more conservative and went reaver first just in case. bisu took full advantage of this, i guess. that's why i hate pvp on non-ramp maps...the luck factor increases so much.
i don't wanna take anything away from bisu though, he's great!
congratulations kty
I think 2 gate robo is still safe against 4 gate goon rushes even if you shuttle first. The shuttle 2/3 done by the time the support bay finishes so the timing is very similar for when the reaver is produced. It's only if you expand too that it becomes vulnerable.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 22 2008 19:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Im not the pvp expert but jangbi's first observer died before scouting anything game 2 and 4, might have something to do with it?
Also deciple i think pvp is more luckbased than other mu's wouldn't you say?
Specially when you have two people on top of their game.
That makes pvping special.
i don't think it made a big difference at that point. i wouldn't say pvp is luck based at all on ramp maps, since cheesing gets that much harder and both players play straight up. the better player wins. maps like medusa though, things change so much according to what risks the players decide to take. it certainly makes things interesting but eh.
i still love pvp because it often comes down to pure mechanics battle of macro/micro/reaction/etc
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United States10774 Posts
On November 22 2008 19:55 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2008 19:52 OneOther wrote:
damn it. bisu took a risk by going shuttle first, which would be vulnerable against four gate build, whereas jangbi was more conservative and went reaver first just in case. bisu took full advantage of this, i guess. that's why i hate pvp on non-ramp maps...the luck factor increases so much.
i don't wanna take anything away from bisu though, he's great!
congratulations kty I think 2 gate robo is still safe against 4 gate goon rushes even if you shuttle first. The shuttle 2/3 done by the time the support bay finishes so the timing is very similar for when the reaver is produced. It's only if you expand too that it becomes vulnerable.
depends on what kind of robo build it was, but it's much more risky. i don't recall which game it was but i remember watching a player lose pvp because he got the shuttle first. it makes a big difference. bisu gambled, regardless.
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United States43989 Posts
On November 22 2008 19:57 OneOther wrote:
i still love pvp because it often comes down to pure mechanics battle of macro/micro/reaction/etc
I love PvP because no other Protoss matchup has so much metagame in it. It's all about what your opponent knows about what you're doing it and how they'll counter it and how you'll counter their counter. What you can get away with. Where you can cut corners and power your economy. How you can exploit threat to manipulate your opponent.
The mechanics side is what I suck at which is why I lose PvT.
Odd that we have such different ideas about the matchup lol.
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United States43989 Posts
Fancy a PvP on icc right now OneOther?
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The unability to scout properly and the power of different BO in pvp makes me thing the MU is more luckbased than other mu's but maybe im wrong, im a T player myself.
Also for the record, GOM belongs to either JD or Flash
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SonuvBob/ss/bisu_o_face.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/1657/bisuagecf9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.spiritinthesky.com/images/21367-Panda-Celebrates-1st-Birthday_w.jpg)
