EPT[PL] SKT vs KTF
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32277 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32277 Posts
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Superbia
Netherlands8889 Posts
SKT T1 FIGHTING! | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
For the ace KTF picks Flash and for T1 a healed Bisu plays and Bisu wins an epic game. In my dreams, lol. Anyway, T1 fighting!!! | ||
Corinthos
Canada1842 Posts
mms://76.76.9.249:2337 vlc: mmsh://76.76.9.249:1337 | ||
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Titusmaster6
United States5937 Posts
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
I guess i'm not getting much sleep tonight | ||
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Jimtudor
Canada259 Posts
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LosingID8
CA10829 Posts
 gg earlier today too! | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/LastRomantic/Cheerfuls/KTFSKT.jpg) | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32277 Posts
On May 27 2008 14:45 Nick_54 wrote: Midas and Canata win. Reach pulls KTF through in the 2v2. Flash beats Best in a good game. For the ace KTF picks Flash and for T1 a healed Bisu plays and Bisu wins an epic game. In my dreams, lol. Anyway, T1 fighting!!! ![[image loading]](http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k255/IntoTheWow/T1Mascot.png) | ||
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Descent
1244 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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pachi
Melbourne5338 Posts
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SingletonWilliam
United States664 Posts
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HaXxorIzed
Australia8434 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 27 2008 15:29 pachi wrote: best is sitting at around 2200 iirc and is the third highest ranked atm. It might happen I think he'll only gain 7 points from the win. Not sure | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
I think Best's varied builds/styles, relative newness to the scene, and his clearly incredible skill level/game sense will give flash a really tough, dangerous game. He won't be able to streamline his builds like he did against stork in OSL for easy rapes(stork is predictable). Flash has felt heavy pressure before though, and then he absolutely crushed his opponents with afterwards with fantastic upgrade/push timing. I think Best needs to do a strong harass based build whiling gaining a macro advantage. 1 base range goon into fe maybe. Then a quick shutlle + take island --> reaver harass--> second shuttle + speed --> 4 zeals --> Drop 2 reaver 4 zeal as soon as possible while adding gates. Thentaking out the assims near the terran to basically make it an island game, or pure 2 base macro for the win situation. But then again, compared to flash/best I know knowing so Best might do something very very different lol. I really doubt there is any one way to beat flash. You pretty much just have to outplay him in almost all aspects, or you will eventually fall behind in all of them. He's effin relentless. But best just might have what it takes to do that. | ||
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Holylight
Korea (South)460 Posts
Midas and Canata are looking good, I think SKT1 will take this | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
Gogo, Monster Coach & Devil Coach, make me proud | ||
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soudo
603 Posts
On May 27 2008 15:23 Plexa wrote: if flash wins tonight, he will almost certainly surpass iloveoov's highest elo I wonder had badly iloveoov wants to win this match. He's coming off a 3-0 victory from his wedding day, and now his team has to defend his ELO legacy from the most dominant player in the league today. I wonder how his motivational speech went. | ||
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On May 27 2008 16:05 soudo wrote: I wonder had badly iloveoov wants to win this match. He's coming off a 3-0 victory from his wedding day, and now his team has to defend his ELO legacy from the most dominant player in the league today. I wonder how his motivational speech went. I doubt iloveoov cares about TLPD's Elo ratings  FlaSh will win. He is the Ultimate Weapon. | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On May 27 2008 16:16 Last Romantic wrote: I doubt iloveoov cares about TLPD's Elo ratings FlaSh will win. He is the Ultimate Weapon. No, he is a Little Monster. I expect a KTF win here, we shall see. | ||
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Darkmole
United States900 Posts
To tell you the truth i think the only chance for KTF not to lose 0-3 then its all about 815 then. If 815 cant beat Midas then its all over and SKT1 is gonna take it 3-0 cuz i know Canata is freaking dominant for a TvT and his no joke and SKT1 2v2 is unbeatable right now soooo i think 815 has a lot of pressure right now :D SKT1 Fighting!!! if it goes to game 4 ima root for Best!!!! | ||
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Tinithor
United States1552 Posts
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
On May 27 2008 15:23 Plexa wrote: if flash wins tonight, he will almost certainly surpass iloveoov's highest elo Well even if not tonight he's definately taking in soon enough with all his forthcoming games as he's also playing Sea and it doesn't really matter he'll take the Elo title with ease I think. Personally Flash is the only terran nowadays I want to see ranked higher than Jaedong. I'm a zerg player and a Jaedong fan but still Flash seems okay to me so now that he's beating Jaedongs Elo I actually want him to the the highest Elo ever. And who knows if he'll eventually be 70%+ across all four lines would be very impressive just to see. | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
dont wanna study u_u | ||
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Dreamer]
Sweden358 Posts
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
On May 27 2008 16:46 SilverSkyLark wrote: Hmm, no doubel Lee Young Ho? Saving Neo Dreamer for a possible ace? It will be hard for them to get to ace without neo dreamer =( I don't give sair much of a chance TvT against Canata, who has looked strong in that mu lately. However, his TvP has looked quite beatable, and neo dreamer has shown a good PvT. I predict either 3-0 SKT1, or 2-3 KTF, but since Flash plays 4th game, maybe they wont put him as ace. I guess we will have to wait and see. | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
Thanks for stream. Is this working for anyone else? | ||
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XiaoLongNuSucks
Burkina Faso285 Posts
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Tinithor
United States1552 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On May 27 2008 17:34 teamsolid wrote: Thanks for stream. Is this working for anyone else? no its not working (yet?) | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32277 Posts
On May 27 2008 17:34 teamsolid wrote: Thanks for stream. Is this working for anyone else? starts in 15' | ||
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Tinithor
United States1552 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7833 Posts
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
midas yellow at 10 | ||
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
midas tries to be a jerk and steals 815's minerals. rax -> CC for midas, scouted by 815 who 3rd hatches in base | ||
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
doesn't seem to be working for me  | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
standard 3 hatch muta from 815, midas now moving out with his first mnm group. very standard play so far. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
815 uses awesome hax and wipes out midas' first mnm group, now muta harassing but midas has added turrets in time | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
midas has 3 scvs stuck behind a turret. this is looking increasingly horrible for him =( | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
fight! midas loses a good portion of his army and all his tanks while 815 has about 5 lurkers remaining. consume tech is already up for 815 | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
Damn as im typing that 815 comes in a rapes a clump out of midas mnm ball. That wasnt bad by midas but not really good enough | ||
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
midas adding firebats to his rather enormous army while 815 continues abusing swarm to keep midas from mining at his third base nice vessel sniping from 815 here, 815 is playing very very well | ||
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
815 adding a fifth gas, midas looks to stop him with dropships but 815 is just dominating midas at every fight at the front. midas sees the cows storming in and ggs flash will play! | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7833 Posts
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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VenetianSnares
Netherlands292 Posts
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On May 27 2008 19:02 Pepsicolaone wrote: PERFECTLY PLAYED BY 815!!! Really close to it. That was amazing play from 815. He made midas look BAD. And we all know midas is anything but bad even on a off day against most people. | ||
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
shows that he can play on more than just blue storm :D:D:D:d GOGOGO KTF!!!!!!!! | ||
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Tinithor
United States1552 Posts
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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Nosjack
Australia38 Posts
![[image loading]](http://hostfile.org/SaiR.jpg) Look at that thing.. | ||
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Lhyviathan
Australia975 Posts
You just won us the match 3-2. *touches wood* | ||
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Lhyviathan
Australia975 Posts
On May 27 2008 19:17 Nosjack wrote: Look at that thing.. Schnozza Warehouse. They'll make your face grouse. | ||
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
siege now up for sair, trying to pressure but canata takes out all the tanks with his barely surviving | ||
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
big fight in high ground in middle, seems relatively even canata stars a third CC | ||
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
canata still seems way ahead in macro though, going on the offense again on sair's third canata now ahead in upgrades and heavily pressuring sair's front, wraiths join his army and he wipes out a good portion of sair's army in the ensuing battle | ||
disciple
9070 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
canata spams starports because he is so ahead. 4 mining bases to 2 now. | ||
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Nosjack
Australia38 Posts
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
They said "Ko een kyu" literally about 30 times in 1 minute. Then there was a silence and then one of them is like "Ko in kyu, ko in kyu, ko in kyu" followed but the others giggling, and then saying the name even more. | ||
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Olorin
Norway4 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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nerium
Philippines512 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
one-sided as expected. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
SaiR totally outclassed in this TvT Yes guys, this means BeSt vs. Flash IS ON!!!! | ||
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shikhye
Germany302 Posts
On May 27 2008 19:31 Olorin wrote: Any stream that WORKS? daum works great today | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Nosjack
Australia38 Posts
![[image loading]](http://hostfile.org/SaiR2.jpg) IT'S ALIVE?! 2v2.. cmon, lets try not to lose too badly KTF. | ||
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
hahaha nice one | ||
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ahole-surprise
United States813 Posts
On May 27 2008 19:26 disciple wrote: 815's win is meaningless since best will walk over flash Wow this prediction is backed both by statistics and common sense! | ||
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
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disciple
9070 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
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Guss
Sweden712 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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Lhyviathan
Australia975 Posts
On May 27 2008 19:26 disciple wrote: | ||
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
SKT protoss with dark templars regaining the map air attack +1 for reach, overlord hunting with massive sair fleet SKT protoss expanding | ||
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
SKT ZERG IS SHREDDED. LAIR GOES DOWN | ||
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johanes
Czech Republic2231 Posts
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
KTF making fun of SKT protoss | ||
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Samurai-
Slovenia2035 Posts
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johanes
Czech Republic2231 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
great build and play from KTF | ||
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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PoP
France15446 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
GO BEST WE NEED YOU ON THIS ONE | ||
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:05 PoP wrote: so what did rumble do except getting harrassed by reach's probe and losing overlords to sairs? I dont think you can do something when you are 1v2 and you have muta tech vs 3 hatch ling + 2stargate sairs. Rumble didnt suck, but Reach and Zergbong BOs were the perfect counter. | ||
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Lhyviathan
Australia975 Posts
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Nosjack
Australia38 Posts
![[image loading]](http://hostfile.org/W00t.jpg) Cant wait! | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:10 Boblion wrote: I dont think you can do something when you are 1v2 and you have muta tech vs 3 hatch ling + 2stargate sairs. Rumble didnt suck, but Reach and Zergbong BOs were the perfect counter. I didn't watch the game, just trying to guess from the reports. Makes sense though. Guess he tried to sunken turtle (while Bul_T was teching) but failed? | ||
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:13 PoP wrote: I didn't watch the game, just trying to guess from the reports. Makes sense though. Guess he tried to sunken turtle (while Bul_T was teching) but failed? no he tried to spore turtle. he only built 1 sunken. | ||
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Lhyviathan
Australia975 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:11 Nosjack wrote: Cant wait! Judging by that, I don't think BeSt is Flash's true opponent. I think seeing past those bangs is going to be the real challenge. | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
Come on kid, you've got what it takes! 10-game winstreak here we come!! | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:13 PoP wrote: I didn't watch the game, just trying to guess from the reports. Makes sense though. Guess he tried to sunken turtle (while Bul_T was teching) but failed? Yea he turtled in his main with spores and few sunks ( 2 i think ) and tried to mass mutas. But Reach sairs ( about 8 ) + ZergBong mass ling killed him. the Skt Toss was late to help him. | ||
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
I guess they're wins, but how come some are 3 bars and some 4 or 2 | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:19 TonyL2 wrote: What do those red bars stand for in "Last 10 matches" I guess they're wins, but how come some are 3 bars and some 4 or 2 I'm also curious about this - I suspect it might be some sort of subjective rating of "how easily they won" but I'm not sure. | ||
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
Flash bottom right | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
flash tvp rapist gogo LOL holy shit @ their last 10 games thingy SUPERTOSS VS. LITTLE MONSTER | ||
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Daeno
Canada76 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:19 TonyL2 wrote: What do those red bars stand for in "Last 10 matches" I guess they're wins, but how come some are 3 bars and some 4 or 2 It stands for how many of your opponents' friends/family died from collateral damage from LOSING SO HARD. | ||
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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Lhyviathan
Australia975 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:19 TonyL2 wrote: What do those red bars stand for in "Last 10 matches" I guess they're wins, but how come some are 3 bars and some 4 or 2 My guess is how long the game was? Perhaps it gives an indication of "Oh, so-and-so wins short games, but loses in longer ones." | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19138 Posts
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:22 Lhyviathan wrote: My guess is how long the game was? Perhaps it gives an indication of "Oh, so-and-so wins short games, but loses in longer ones." No, it indicates opponent's strength. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
! SKT vs KTF stream was fine | ||
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:22 Lhyviathan wrote: My guess is how long the game was? Perhaps it gives an indication of "Oh, so-and-so wins short games, but loses in longer ones." I thought it was elo gain/loss from that opponent? | ||
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
PROBE KILL | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:23 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: OMFG! Flash is SO fucking good strategically. He goes 14 cc without scouting his opponent. His opponent opened 13 nexus. lol yeah great strategic thinking there | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:22 Lhyviathan wrote: My guess is how long the game was? Perhaps it gives an indication of "Oh, so-and-so wins short games, but loses in longer ones." Bars going up are wins. The higher the bar the higher the opponent was on kespa. For the loses the bar goes down. The higher the bar, the lower the rank of the opponent. | ||
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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sztuczyn
Poland694 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
I hope not!! OH NOES FLEET BEACON FLASH EATS CARRIERS FOR BREAKFAST | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:25 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Bars going up are wins. The higher the bar the higher the opponent was on kespa. For the loses the bar goes down. The higher the bar, the lower the rank of the opponent. live report and save me pleaaaaase!! | ||
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gakkgakk
Norway902 Posts
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Nosjack
Australia38 Posts
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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Worked!
Canada264 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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elias poncho
Canada157 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
flash going flash build this will be amusing | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
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gakkgakk
Norway902 Posts
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Lhyviathan
Australia975 Posts
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elias poncho
Canada157 Posts
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Victor
New Zealand1016 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7833 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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PoP
France15446 Posts
2 bases vs 2 bases PvT carriers vs Flash build yeaaaaaaah sure. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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trollbone
France1905 Posts
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
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gakkgakk
Norway902 Posts
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elias poncho
Canada157 Posts
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
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sztuczyn
Poland694 Posts
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Storchen
Sweden4385 Posts
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7833 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7833 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:34 Vasoline73 wrote: OH MY GOD. If Flash wins this... lol this again? | ||
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
And Flash starts another CC | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
Flash 16 cc BeSt 14 nexus BeSt Carrier Flash getting owned Flashing losing 3rd Big Battle Flash winning _WHAT_? | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
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elias poncho
Canada157 Posts
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
G G | ||
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
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excel_odin
42 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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sztuczyn
Poland694 Posts
Rematch in ace game?:D | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
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Worked!
Canada264 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
SKT1 MASSIV FIGHTING!!!!! | ||
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Setixir
United States5 Posts
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Solmyr
Poland261 Posts
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7833 Posts
Lol, only this time Flash lost | ||
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
Flash gg's BEST rapes flashbuild w/ carrier rush rofl! | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
Best for power rank #1 ez | ||
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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nerium
Philippines512 Posts
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Victor
New Zealand1016 Posts
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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Worked!
Canada264 Posts
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Dreamer]
Sweden358 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
I'd love to see them play each other again straight away, with Flash's revenge | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
I didn't watch the game but I'm really disappointed at Flash for being that cocky and not even scouting. Guess he got what he deserved here. | ||
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Dreamer]
Sweden358 Posts
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
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Victor
New Zealand1016 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7833 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
Oh gawd oh gawd o gawd | ||
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lmaonnaise
Canada153 Posts
ends flash's 12 game win streak | ||
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epjx31
United Kingdom324 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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Setixir
United States5 Posts
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epjx31
United Kingdom324 Posts
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Konni
Germany3044 Posts
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gakkgakk
Norway902 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
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Lhyviathan
Australia975 Posts
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
you can bunker 3base and mass up so much you have no idea how happy I am best raped flash's bunker3 base & mass up build there | ||
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
10-GAME WINSTREAK FLASH WHO IS THAT GUY | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:39 lmaonnaise wrote: Best 10 game win streak and 6 game win streak vs Terrans ends flash's 12 game win streak Didn't Flash lose to go.go not so long ago? | ||
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
hes talking about vs P | ||
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Mutalisk
288 Posts
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:39 Fwmeh wrote: I bet this was a practiced build. I really like it too, didn't sacrifice ground too much ground strength like most carrier rushes does. With good storm usage you can really put the hurt on a terran army with gols instead of vultures. ugh all the builds are heavily practiced builds | ||
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
Oh you're talking about P | ||
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lmaonnaise
Canada153 Posts
oh yea he did... strange.. I thought I heard the announcers say that but I guess I heard it wrong ok maybe they were talking about his vs Protoss streak | ||
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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epjx31
United Kingdom324 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
He sure did. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7833 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:42 Mutalisk wrote: The lost of Flash was his own fault... what the fuck, no scout and no scan... Flash has really dissappointed me in this game. Everybody drops one game . Flash for President. And, clearly, I am not bias in Flashes favor | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
BeSt just played (plz him again?) Bisu is still injured I think Midas lost his set and looked pretty crappy, and it's on Blue Storm with KTF likely to choose 815 again ?? Canata? KTF will not send a Terran... Rumble, fantasy, hyuk??? Captain GoRush??!??! | ||
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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Mutalisk
288 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:45 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Well flash did scout with scan 1 o'clock starting position and perhaps Best base, hard to tell because didn't see scan flashing there, but Flash did trust his build a lot. It was obvious flash was caught completely offguard. He had like 4-5 gols and 12 tanks. Not a good mixvs 4 carriers | ||
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Corinthos
Canada1842 Posts
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:45 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Well flash did scout with scan 1 o'clock starting position and perhaps Best base, hard to tell because didn't see scan flashing there, but Flash did trust his build a lot. Until this game, he has never had any reason not to. But I think it was about time someone read and countered Flash like this, it will force him to evolve his gameplay. | ||
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AirBleach
United States123 Posts
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7833 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
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lmaonnaise
Canada153 Posts
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Solmyr
Poland261 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
Hyuk: I believe! | ||
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Seku
United States313 Posts
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:49 jwd241224 wrote: Hyuk vs. Flash Hyuk: I believe! Me too! | ||
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sztuczyn
Poland694 Posts
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AirBleach
United States123 Posts
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
Flash will eat Hyuk for breakfast. Two losses in a row is not really probable. =( | ||
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Solmyr
Poland261 Posts
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Heggie
United Kingdom167 Posts
http://teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/7_Hyuk | ||
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
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ahole-surprise
United States813 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:50 Heggie wrote: Is this the same Hyuk who is 16% vs terran? http://teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/7_Hyuk exactly. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:50 Heggie wrote: Is this the same Hyuk who is 16% vs terran? http://teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/7_Hyuk He's only played like three games, cut him some slack. In his last game he recovered from a failed 5pool to own free with a sneaky doom drop. OK, so Flash has to be the favorite - but don't count T1 out quite yet. | ||
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gakkgakk
Norway902 Posts
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Heggie
United Kingdom167 Posts
Edit: On May 27 2008 20:51 jwd241224 wrote: He's only played like three games, cut him some slack. In his last game he recovered from a failed 5pool to own free with a sneaky doom drop. OK, so Flash has to be the favorite - but don't count T1 out quite yet. Yes I supose there is not enough data to have too much faith in the stats. | ||
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
but then best went back and Hyuk stood up and everyone was like OMG DON'T SEND FLASH!! | ||
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
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Solmyr
Poland261 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:46 Corinthos wrote: Sorry, stream fixed. not for me t.t | ||
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rA.Hippie
Denmark714 Posts
vT: 1-5 (16.67%) yeah goodluck with that man | ||
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:52 Jayson X wrote: When best stood up everyone was like YEAH and now please send flash but then best went back and Hyuk stood up and everyone was like OMG DON'T SEND FLASH!! LOL | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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Nosjack
Australia38 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
gogo magical 5 pool | ||
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:52 Solmyr wrote: Ok from now on I don't belive this PL thing is something serious... Haha my thoughts when KTF sent Hery | ||
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Fish_Baguettes
Australia589 Posts
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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Weltschmerz
Russian Federation37 Posts
Sorry, stream fixed. is it mms://76.76.9.249:2337 ? It isn't working still | ||
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/interview/1210147711_1.jpg) Hyuk is a monster, I sense Flash is trembling in fear ... | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
Other stream worked (different port) | ||
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:52 rA.Hippie wrote: What a disaster T.T vT: 1-5 (16.67%) yeah goodluck with that man You're one of those people who freaked out at the 100% TvP win rate for by.baby, weren't you? | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:57 Nintu wrote: You're one of those people who freaked out at the 100% TvP win rate for by.baby, weren't you? Well put. Flash looks a bit nervous - has his face spasms going! | ||
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Proposal
United States1310 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
4 3 2 1 Commentator: "Erm it...it appears like Hyuk just ran out of the studio." | ||
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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Guss
Sweden712 Posts
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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BlindObS
39 Posts
ow 2 rax rush ;/ | ||
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Heggie
United Kingdom167 Posts
On May 27 2008 20:57 Nintu wrote: You're one of those people who freaked out at the 100% TvP win rate for by.baby, weren't you? lol, to be fair we do have, if I am not much mistaken, 6 times the sample size here. Not great I'll admit, but it seems obvious that Flash is the massive favourite here. On the other hand, that would be the case whatever Hyuks stats, so I guess we are really just arguing about different attitudes to the same truth: Hyuk is PROBABLY fucked. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
hyuk discovers it with drone. hardcore cheese unfolding. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On May 27 2008 21:01 Guss wrote: 8 rax from flash On May 27 2008 21:00 TonyL2 wrote: 8rax from Flash On May 27 2008 21:00 uriel- wrote: 8 rax from flash TTTTripple Live report ftw :D Edit: I knew 8 rax was coming :s | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
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Piste
6183 Posts
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gakkgakk
Norway902 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
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elias poncho
Canada157 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
looks over soon | ||
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On May 27 2008 21:02 PoP wrote: bbs? bsb? Bsb build imo. | ||
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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Guss
Sweden712 Posts
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
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Storchen
Sweden4385 Posts
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uriel-
Singapore1867 Posts
lots of flash hate coming | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
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Nosjack
Australia38 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
Aw SKT, oh well. | ||
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TonyL2
England1953 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
Haha KTF dance!! | ||
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BlindObS
39 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7833 Posts
so close. Good thing I voted KTFFF | ||
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Heggie
United Kingdom167 Posts
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Nosjack
Australia38 Posts
![[image loading]](http://hostfile.org/KTF-Dance.jpg) | ||
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Storchen
Sweden4385 Posts
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
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elias poncho
Canada157 Posts
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disciple
9070 Posts
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
GG KTF, Flash, you're godly man.. I dont really get the choice to put Hyuk in the Ace match though. | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
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Solmyr
Poland261 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
He never had a chance. | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
On May 27 2008 21:07 StRyKeR wrote: IN THE TIME THAT HE HAD LIKE 9 DRONES TAKING A SHIT IN FRONT OF RINES HE COULDA BUILT A SUNK AND USED ONLY LIKE 5 DRONES Agreed, was thinking the same thing lol.. | ||
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On May 27 2008 21:07 StRyKeR wrote: IN THE TIME THAT HE HAD LIKE 9 DRONES TAKING A SHIT IN FRONT OF RINES HE COULDA BUILT A SUNK AND USED ONLY LIKE 5 DRONES And he was still mining gas. :D Well i think that, they expect 815 in Ace and he will probably cheese him, but when Flash comes, they're fucked imo. | ||
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
On May 27 2008 21:09 Carnac wrote: i have seen many retarded picks for ace players in the last few years, but this one might very well have been the most retarded of all Tied with KTF using Hery as ace? | ||
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
no, much worse | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Storchen
Sweden4385 Posts
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Mutalisk
288 Posts
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
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iloveHieu
United States1919 Posts
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HaXxorIzed
Australia8434 Posts
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Jimtudor
Canada259 Posts
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BleuNuit
Canada44 Posts
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Darkmole
United States900 Posts
is that mean that they are no longer first place? | ||
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Deleted User 31060
3788 Posts
but yay KTF!!! (no lucifer?) | ||
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Pepsicolaone
United States967 Posts
On May 27 2008 22:53 Darkmole wrote: whattttttttttttttttttttt nooooooooooo i cant believe SKT1 lost T.T is that mean that they are no longer first place? they are still first place. | ||
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hku
169 Posts
On May 27 2008 21:16 Fwmeh wrote: But I must say, I find it nice that KTF has enough depth in their lineup to handle Flash not winning every game. I still think they should have used Lucifer over Sair, though I understand that they want to give more players PL experience. Thin rooster is still their biggest weakness imo. On May 27 2008 23:01 Sunyveil wrote: uhhh the results are kinda confusing... but yay KTF!!! (no lucifer?) Lucifer's practicing hard to start his bo3 with a win vs jaedong on Thursday. | ||
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Matoo-
Canada1397 Posts
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imDerek
United States1944 Posts
good work though BeSt, I knew you could do it! | ||
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EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
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gokai
United States812 Posts
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P_King
Russian Federation363 Posts
On May 28 2008 01:29 gokai wrote: Man, KTF went from a bottom ranked team to a top team in one year. Growing the new talent really paid off. KTF was always a major powerhouse, they just was in crisis due to transititon from old stars (Reach/Yellow/rA/ChoJJa) to new blood (Flash/Lucifer/815) P.S. GOGO KTF !!! | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
Record: 19 wins - 3 losses (86.36%) Holy god, he needs to be stopped, he is still unbeaten in both leagues. And, he's last Non-Jaedong lost in Bo series is vs Stork in EVER OSL. T_T | ||
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anch
United States5457 Posts
free win for Flash 2/2 | ||
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Jimtudor
Canada259 Posts
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soudo
603 Posts
Best win streak:10. Worst losing streak: 2 losses???!!! WTF WTF? Add to that the 75% win rate in PvP, this guy is insane. Forget Bisu, this is SKT1's best player period. Edit: About Flash: TvT: 68.75% win rate TvZ: 65.63% win rate TvP: 66.67% win rate 65%+ in all matchups? Ohhh man, unstoppable. He puts Sea's record to shame. | ||
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gokai
United States812 Posts
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Spyder
176 Posts
(it's not yet uploaded on youtube) | ||
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
I also like the way Flash was furious after losing a game he had no business winning (I mean come on, he wasn't facing a B league scrub, he was facing Best and didn't even freaking scout) and then came back and just annihilated a shellshocked Hyuk. There's no question Hyuk should have put up a Sunken but if you look at his psychology (pulling 9 drones like 15 seconds too early) you could tell that he was thinking "OMG IT'S FLASH HE WILL COME NOW WITH 10 MARINE" Also, if I'm not mistaken, Hyuk's scouting of Flash was delayed by that Marine at choke which means he couldn't completely tell when the second Barracks was being put up (if that first Drone gets in he could tell it was later) so he gambled that Flash just went straight BBS and probably timed his counteroffensive off of that. As for not getting off gas ... uhh, don't know about that one. | ||
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ScarFace
United States1175 Posts
On May 28 2008 03:40 soudo wrote: Best is a beast but his worst streak with is a bit inflated, considering hes so new. He's only recently become *really* good.About Best: Best win streak:10. Worst losing streak: 2 losses???!!! WTF WTF? Add to that the 75% win rate in PvP, this guy is insane. Forget Bisu, this is SKT1's best player period. Edit: About Flash: TvT: 68.75% win rate TvZ: 65.63% win rate TvP: 66.67% win rate 65%+ in all matchups? Ohhh man, unstoppable. He puts Sea's record to shame. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
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Freezard
Sweden1017 Posts
Anyway great game... just Flash has gotten so arrogant lately, getting completely devastated from just losing a game vs the Best Protoss around. Seriously... if it wasn't for the ace match he would definitely be emotionally destroyed and turned into a slump ball from this day on. | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
On May 28 2008 04:18 darktreb wrote: Flash lasted over 20 minutes in a game against probably the best P (and maybe best PvT) in the world when he didn't even SCOUT. If he even scans Best once and replaces half of his 92385 tanks with some Goliaths he still wins with ease probably. Face it - his TvP build is absolutely monstrous and this minor setback is only going to make it that much stronger ... scary thought. I also like the way Flash was furious after losing a game he had no business winning (I mean come on, he wasn't facing a B league scrub, he was facing Best and didn't even freaking scout) and then came back and just annihilated a shellshocked Hyuk. There's no question Hyuk should have put up a Sunken but if you look at his psychology (pulling 9 drones like 15 seconds too early) you could tell that he was thinking "OMG IT'S FLASH HE WILL COME NOW WITH 10 MARINE" Also, if I'm not mistaken, Hyuk's scouting of Flash was delayed by that Marine at choke which means he couldn't completely tell when the second Barracks was being put up (if that first Drone gets in he could tell it was later) so he gambled that Flash just went straight BBS and probably timed his counteroffensive off of that. As for not getting off gas ... uhh, don't know about that one. so you are saying Best got extremely lucky, that Flash didnt scouted him? I dont see what could be different , cant you see that flash's game is based on defending till the 3/3 ups and then rolling up. Flash doesnt care at all what is his opponent doing cause his build is very solid and safe, and if you ask me very boring to watch. IF he made more golis to counter the carriers there wouldnt be a big difference mainly because the carriers were extremely fast and flashs ups were like 1/1 when the carriers already had +1 attack and the most important Best used the carriers as a supporting unit, he never was low on goons, he pumped ground army all the time profiting from the fact that Flash just sits in his base and waiting for the ups to get done. Flash truly made mistakes in this game but I will give all the credits to Best for winning the game, his build may see risky and kinda all in with those early carriers but it was the best choice against flash's passive early game...as flash typed : GGG Best | ||
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ahole-surprise
United States813 Posts
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Athos
United States2484 Posts
I'm guessing he didn't build one since he lost an scv in the very beginning. I think Flash was cocky and felt he didn't need to scout but he learned that he is indeed human. I hope this isn't the end of his dominance. As good as Best is...I just don't like the guy. | ||
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
On May 28 2008 05:26 disciple wrote: so you are saying Best got extremely lucky, that Flash didnt scouted him? I dont see what could be different , cant you see that flash's game is based on defending till the 3/3 ups and then rolling up. Flash doesnt care at all what is his opponent doing cause his build is very solid and safe, and if you ask me very boring to watch. IF he made more golis to counter the carriers there wouldnt be a big difference mainly because the carriers were extremely fast and flashs ups were like 1/1 when the carriers already had +1 attack and the most important Best used the carriers as a supporting unit, he never was low on goons, he pumped ground army all the time profiting from the fact that Flash just sits in his base and waiting for the ups to get done. Flash truly made mistakes in this game but I will give all the credits to Best for winning the game, his build may see risky and kinda all in with those early carriers but it was the best choice against flash's passive early game...as flash typed : GGG Best I think this is an important point. Flash's unite balance was not really bad, it was just that Best's was tailor made to counter it. The key was how fast he got the carriers, counting on the fact that flash was going to use the "flash build," which is not designed to punish his opponents for teching early. The other major difference from most carrier builds was how the carriers was used as support, just as disciple says. Most carrier builds go for carriers at the expense of a ground army, Best didn't do that, and abused the fact that Flash didn't really have any vultures. If flash had gotten a higher goliath count at the expense of tanks, I think Best might have killed him during his initial attack. If you watch that again, Best has like 7 goons there, but cannot move in because the tanks were very well-placed. Also, about Flash's lack of scouting. That build is really does require an unusually small amount of scouting compared to most builds. It never was a build that was heavily dependant on responding to the opponent, rather it was like NaDa's old style tornado play, you know his push was comming, but was usually powerless before it. I think it was tasteless who said it in a commentary, that you could probably map hack against NaDa and he would still own you. I think the "flash build" is somewhat similar. You know that flash will turtle, go for fast upgrades, get 3/3 and 3 bases if possible, and then push out and kill you. And up to this point, it has worked very well, even against early harass. He seems to be behind, but his macro is just so good, he will still get that killing push going. I kinda hope this will stake out a possible counter against the flash build, so that he has to evolve his own game to stay ahead. He is a bit too predictable with that build to get away with it every time. | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
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ScarFace
United States1175 Posts
On May 28 2008 05:44 Athos wrote: Lol? You are considering a decline because he dropped a single game? Come on man, even oov dropped games here and there. Flash was cocky, so now he will smarten up a bit. He looked pissed off too, so he will probably come back with a vengeance against all Protosses he meets in the next bit ;]I cant believe flash didn't scout..... I'm guessing he didn't build one since he lost an scv in the very beginning. I think Flash was cocky and felt he didn't need to scout but he learned that he is indeed human. I hope this isn't the end of his dominance. As good as Best is...I just don't like the guy. HOW DARE THE PROTOSS TRY TO RUIN HIS STREAK!  | ||
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Darkmole
United States900 Posts
On May 28 2008 05:44 Athos wrote: I cant believe flash didn't scout..... I'm guessing he didn't build one since he lost an scv in the very beginning. I think Flash was cocky and felt he didn't need to scout but he learned that he is indeed human. I hope this isn't the end of his dominance. As good as Best is...I just don't like the guy. Flash started being soooo cocky ever since he won the OSL game... just like Jaedong when he won the OSL he started being so cocky... | ||
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Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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disciple
9070 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
I think Flash's lack of scouting hurt but it didn't cost him the game. No scouting probe and he didn't even have scan up until absurdly late in the game. I think his first scan was in time to see BeSt's first few carriers out, but by then I think it was too late for him to get enough goliaths to deal with the pressure. Other than that, you have to chalk this up to brilliant play by BeSt. The build was genius, the carrier micro was sick (utterly abusing the cliff over Flash's main), and the storms in the middle of the map completed the game. BeSt is the real deal guys - hands down the best Protoss playing hte game, and as we have seen he is even challenging Flash for the spot of best SC player in the world. | ||
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Sigrun
United States1655 Posts
On May 28 2008 07:31 disciple wrote: no one is as cocky as jaedong, the "legend killer" even proxy hatched the emperor himself. You're stupid, Boxer went 14 CC while Jaedong went 9 pool. The proxy Hatchery is a strategy on Katrina by Zerg to pressure Terran that wall-in on that map and play greedy. Also, learn proper grammar please. | ||
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
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Tensai176
Canada2061 Posts
Flash is just a monster. I think thats why they didnt send BeSt on the Ace, cause i dont think he could've won again, or it could'e been the map, blue storm... but Hyuk? Hyuk? Are you kidding me? | ||
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Tinithor
United States1552 Posts
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On May 28 2008 11:43 Tensai176 wrote: Best would get his ass kicked. Even thoguh hes my favourite player, Flash is just a monster. I think thats why they didnt send BeSt on the Ace, cause i dont think he could've won again, or it could'e been the map, blue storm... but Hyuk? Hyuk? Are you kidding me? lol That's why they sent Hyuk? Cuz they thought Hyuk would win vs. Flash? Obviously they didn't know Flash was gonna come, given Hyuk's horrendous zvt rec. If they knew, I'm sure they' d have sent out someone else, maybe Best. | ||
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Seku
United States313 Posts
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Darkmole
United States900 Posts
Edit: 1. SKT1 8-4 66.7% 9 2. KTF 8-4 66.7% 8 3. Samsung Khan 8-4 66.7% 7 4. Lecaf Oz 8-4 66.7% 4 5. WeMade Fox 6-4 60.0% 6 6. OnGameNet SPARKYZ 6-4 60.0% -1 7. STX 7-5 58.3% 5 8. MBC Game 5-7 41.7% -2 9. Hanbit Star 4-6 40.0% -1 10. CJ Entus 3-7 30.0% -6 11. ACE Air Force 3-9 25.0% -16 12. eSTRO 2-10 16.7% -15 Wow took a while to do this 0_0 if its wrong tell me :D http://e-sports.or.kr/ results of the proleagues | ||
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bahhh
United States888 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
An epic clash between best and flash bo5 that would be something. We've seen that fans love them both (they were loud!) and we have even more fuel in the fire now thanks to that game. Some of you take it way too serious and jump bandwagons all the time. Flash is a brilliant player with an immense mid to lategame play. Predictable? The only thing that is predictable is that a wolf will allways kill a sheep, that's the way it is, was and allways will be. People said the same thing about oov, savior and bisu. Why don't you just shut it and enjoy the games. | ||
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
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[X]Ken_D
United States4650 Posts
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disciple
9070 Posts
On May 28 2008 09:39 Sigrun wrote: You're stupid, Boxer went 14 CC while Jaedong went 9 pool. The proxy Hatchery is a strategy on Katrina by Zerg to pressure Terran that wall-in on that map and play greedy. Also, learn proper grammar please. sorry for my grammar, and I'm not stupid, boxer was done and about to GG any sec, when jaedong made the hatch. jaedong himself said right after the game he was not right to put the hatch . And btw if you really wonna see how this strategy works watch oversky vs freedom | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
hmm i just dont think the normal flash build = no scan and 12 tank before goliath. seriously, he had like 3-4 goliaths when 4 carriers came out. it wasnt the flash build. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On May 28 2008 17:46 [X]Ken_D wrote: OMG. The Flash build that counter fast carriers lost to fast carriers. It wasn't a game, but a 1 sided destruction. I was shocked O.O. The crowd & announcers were going crazy after BeST won. ..So wrong. Flash's build was clearly not at all meant to handle carriers at that timing at all. When the 4 carriers arrived flash had five goliaths. 1 more than the number of carriers. He also had 12 or more tanks. Yet you think his build was designed to go anti carrier? No freaking way. That being said flash was definitely overconfident in his ability to handle carriers. He turreted everywhere before adding facts instead of getting scan, so cleary he expected Best to do a very strong shuttle harass type of build (like I wrongly predicted him to do). This game does not really say much about Best's overall ability to handle flash, because well flash ALMOST came back (those 3 storms ended this). I think if flash had made a few less turrets in favor an early acad the game wouldve been very very different (best's first carriers' ints getting raped by 14 or so gols while flash keeps his 6 or so tanks back safely out of sniping range). | ||
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[X]Ken_D
United States4650 Posts
How much of a difference would Flash's early scouting do? He was commited anyways doing a 14 or whatever CC build! | ||
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
As for what to call that build, a "build" is imo not timing all buildings/units in an exact way, since against a real opponent, you normally has to adjust to him, even if just a little. I thought "flash build" meant earlier double factories and faster upgrades than most normal builds, and an heavier empathis on goliaths over vultures. His build was clearly that. | ||
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