On January 24 2008 09:15 Last Romantic wrote: OK, so we'll never really know what the ref talked to the players about. But considering the conversations were longer than 10 seconds, I'd assume Bisu was contesting for a regame and that July was contesting for a win. What else would they be talking and gesticulating about for so long?
Honestly, it's a stretch to reach any kind of conclusion from that. The KeSPA ref could just be asking him what happened exactly from his side and to explain the details concerning the disconnect. You know, just to make sure there's no foul play involved or anything. I'm sure July was actively contesting for his deserved win and looked quite pissed while doing so, but I highly doubt Bisu was actually trying for a regame. He knew it was over, disconnect or not.
theres no perfect counter to the beesuit but the general trend is that the zergs have adapted, their all-in push timing have significantly improved, their defense against sairs have gotten better, and more zergs are getting ov speed earlier etc...
the bottom line is, the success rate against the beesuit have improved regardless of the strategy zerg players choose.
its time for the tosses to adapt and innovate again, and so goes the circle of starcraft life.
On January 24 2008 16:10 talismania wrote: What is weird about the whole thing is that July seemed so angry afterwards, storming off backstage. If someone knows someone with post-match interviews... it would be interesting to see why he was upset with what happened.
when they first spoke to the players individually, it was before they analyzed the replay. The KeSPA ref told both of them that "When we watch the replay, if we see a Darktemplar produced, the match will be replayed, if there is no DT produced, the win will be awarded to zerg". July felt that he had the game won even if there were any DTs, so he was pissed that he might have gotten his win stripped because of a DT that Bisu may have produced before the gateway died or from a hidden gateway somewhere. That's why he seemed pissed.
In Savior's win vs Bisu on this map, July's win and a few other wins I've seen against Bisu with rushes I've noticed a 1 common trend: they don't let him scout. In almost all the games the zerg opens with pool before hatch followed by gas for early speed. They then just get 6 lings and hunt down the probe, then go straight to hydra or w/e rush build they're using. Because the 6 lings get early speed upgraded, when Bisu sends out a second probe to see the zerg's tech, it gets hunted down before it gets even halfway down the map.
If you look at Bisu's 3-0 win vs Savior awhile back, (and his Superfight win) he had been successful in scouting Savior with his probe in all of them. He was either able let his probe survive for an extremely long time or find another way to scout so that he's always aware of the zerg's actions.
But by restricting his ability to see your movements, you're forcing him to prepare for everyone. He's curious to see your tech, so he tries to get stargate as soon as possible, but gets run over by hydras by the time the first corsair pops. But if he decides to play safe, and the zerg may have opened with a completely different build, that puts him way behind.
On January 24 2008 09:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: The ONE FUCKING TIME I FUCKING VOTE FOR BISU IN MY ENTIRE LIQUIBET CAREER HE LOSES WHAT THE FUCK 3/4 THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
Why would you bet on Bisu against July?
PvZ: 32-15 (68.09%) with multiple wins against upper tier zergs such as sAviOr.
Hmmm, I can't imagine. Must have been a misclick.
You should have faith in July who is the God of War and the true zerg messiah.
On January 24 2008 09:01 yubee wrote: champions get paid, and champions get remembered. you can be the most honorable starcraft player there is but you don't have shit on someone with a golden mouse.
you say that what happens during the game is the most important and results shouldn't matter. that's completely opposite of how it actually works. the more money is on the line, the less sportsmanship becomes a major factor. why do you think some of the most successful players in basketball are the ones who fall down at the slightest touch
Yet again, this focuses on the needs of the particular player, not about what's actually the best thing to do in the situation. I already explained why this situation isn't about the needs of a particular player.
And no, I think you misunderstood my comment about the "process" of any game/sport. I don't mean that no one goes out there with winning as the only ultimate goal. That's the personal perspective. However, when you look at the whole competition, the whole point is the process, ie. when people play. A game wouldn't be the same if you skipped playing and just got results. The entire reason why people like game is because of the process of playing, not because of the results. Playing is the whole point of it.
Your comment about successful players in basketbal doesn't really say anything. Yet, some of the best players do, some don't. The thing is that basketball is extremely strict and technical about physical contact, so producing fouls becomes a skill. In soccer, however, only players of a particular mindset dive, while others prefer not to. Unfortunately, it's a spreading phenomenon, but nonetheless it ultimately comes down to character as taking a dive in football really has nothing to do with the game and isn't an accepted "method".
On January 24 2008 09:20 Hot_Bid wrote: let's present a hypothetical situation, for example yellow is broke and in debt, and it's the ODT qualifiers and if he wins this next game he gets a new guaranteed contract with KTF, if not he doesn't. sportsmanship and conceding a disc game go right out the window there. in fact, even his fans would want him to take the regame.
"honor" is all relative, and it just depends on the importance of the moment. it's easy to concede meaningless games on bnet, hard to do so when the stakes are high. to suggest that one player (let's say yellow) would be honorable all the time from one example when the stakes aren't high, and when there are counter examples (L2W's, for one) doesn't prove anything.
You are simply re-iterating your previous point, which changes nothing to what I said. You simply describe a situation where a player - in this case, Yellow - would react on instinct/need instead of basing a decision on what's best. Of course some of his fans would want him to take a regame - they are biased. Some times you want someone to get a result so badly that it doesn't matter how they get it. For instance, I'm a big fan of the soccer club Juventus and at the same time I demand beautiful high-level soccer. However, sometimes when I watch Juventus play, I cannot enjoy the game because I'm so focused on them doing well. Af if they had to advance to the finals by scoring a goal, I would want that to happen however that might come to be.
No, honour isn't relative, you decision making is. Obviously, different factors play in, just as we both said ... That doesn't change the fact that the best decision would be to concede the game, while the instinctive situation would be to take a regame.
Man, I feel like I'm getting ineloqent and starting to repeat myself a lot .. and get off topic ... but hell, this needs to be cleared up as a very important element of this round.
Hmm, i'm a bit late on the topic, but i have to say i agree with Asjo and i strongly disagree with Hot_Bid there. In tennis, before Hawk-Eye, i remember some players would admit that the ball was in even when the ref called it out. Corretja was especially known for his fair-play, that didn't mean he didn't wanted to win and clearly, there's big money on the line when you're playing a grand slam final.. I remember a Sampras Becker final in Paris (not the French Open of course): Becker served an ace. Ref called it out. Sampras saw it was in and conceded the point. It doesn't matter what's at stake, it's a matter of personal behavior.
On January 23 2008 20:57 Hot_Bid wrote: this is mostly because it's not a mainstream sport, if millions of dollars were on the line, your "honor" goes right out the window
sure it's easy to concede when the culture and community is still small and close knit and your entire life isn't banking on one game
osl finals, yellow's last chance at an OSL title, 5th game final set this happens, you think he'd not take the option at a regame? what if the prize money was a whole year's salary?
The logic of your posts about this seems quite flawed. If there is money is a bank, do you rob it? No, because it's not the right thing to do. There is possibility, yes, but just like you do living your whole life, you must make decisions according to your code of ethics.
So, if you replay a game you've lost just to get the result you want, you pretty much disregard the whole point of the game. The game - or any sport, in fact - is about the process than happens during play.If all you care for is getting the right result, you might just as well not play against anyone, since obviously you would prefer free wins. You could compare what you're saying to cheating: it's important for you to win the game, so you do what you can to get there (as long as you can get away with it, of course). Still, I don't think your shewed perspective of this matter will mean that you would want to cheat. Obviously, if there is a lot of pressure on people, they can become very selfish, and this is what you emphasize. What you need to realize is only that this is the bad thing to do, a reaction by instinct, and the bigger then man, the better you can set yourself apart from this.
I'm aware that you mention that the rules might dictate a re-game, but no one will force you to regame if you don't want to. It all comes down to your decision, which should be based on what is wrong and right, not what your needs are (money, recognition, etc.). Keep in mind, you're screwing the other person over by taking the regame, not just mocking the competitive scene of Starcraft in general and the game you just played.
Do remember, Hot_Bids a lawyer;) Codes of Ethics are highly flexible in the law field. And as a son with 2 parents who graduated from law school, I can speak with some personal expierence
And no this is not an "oh haha lawyers are assholes" comment. A lot of lawyers are and a lot are really nice. It's just working as a lawyer requires you to think in a different way. Its NECESSARY for being good at law.
EPT
