What a lineup! No mirrors, every matchup being featured, and two of the arguably most anticipated clashes (LJD-Sea and Bisu-July) with plenty of storylines and exciting consequences. Can you ask for anything more from a night of OSL? Get the popcorn ready and get pumped!!!
Jaedong vs. Sea Jaedong-the-champ is playing tonight. Can he beat the OSL curse in the group of death? Can he be consistent and take both leagues? He's certainly the favorite and has momentum on his side. Sea is looking to bounce back after that painful loss in the CJ-MBC ace match. How will that affect his play tonight? Will he come out angry and strong, looking to avenge his loss, or will he be broken and sad? One thing is for certain, Katrina will feature lots of macro, big armies, and long games. Somewhere in Sea's mind, he should know that this should've been the Ace in the Proleague Finals.
Rock vs. Flash Rock is a simple man. His PvT formula is 2-base with a reaver and then straight to Carriers. He does it every. Single. Game. Good thing for him that Flash sucks against Carriers. Look for Flash to attempt to end the game before the blimps show up (just like he did the last time they played on Fantasy).
Bisu vs. July Not much to say about this game other than it will likely put to rest all the "OMG JULY STYLE > BISU" debates. There's no stylistic solution for a Zerg player, you are either better than Bisu in a particular game or you're not (as Jaedong has shown the last time they played). July is an enigma, prone to high variance of skill. Which July will show up tonight? Bisu has been sliding, how much further will he fall? His victory week 1 wasn't awe-inspiring, and his group is no cakewalk. Bisu absolutely needs to get a seed for the next OSL to start his "mini-comeback." For even those that hate Bisu, his PvZ is undeniably beautiful--to lose the privilege of watching it because of a slump or confidence problem would be a tragedy.
BackHo vs. Yarnc 80% of the audience will leave the studio or shut down their stream before this game starts. But hey, PvZ on a new map is still exciting so it may be worth watching just for that. BackHo is a beneficiary of the current set of Pro-Toss maps, because there's no way in hell he belongs in the OSL. Yarnc has beaten Bisu recently. But he is sometimes prone to ridiculous fits of bad play (see previous game vs. Frozean, ugh).
Summary: yaoyuan works, except when it doesnt. Daum will work, if you have a good internet connection. If the stream lags, tough luck. It will lag for some, it will be perfect for others. If you need to complain, please do so quietly to yourself. Nobody cares that your stream lags, don't spam the live report thread with whining. 2-day temp bans will be handed out like candy.
Sea > Jaedong; every streak must have its end and Sea should be able to do this, without playoff pressure. Rock > Flash; this wood must be a carrier heaven, right? Seriously, I would rather think that Flash takes it, but Rock is somehow cool. Bisu > July. Ok, it is on Blue Storm which spells "Bisu's doom" in large red capital letters. But if he does not make a resurgence against zerg now, when else? Backho > Yellow. Simply because I am angry with yellow because of last week's play.
About Demon's forest, Livetowin was quoted as this:
Due to massive complaints from various teams, Demon's Forest will be ejected and replaced by Fantasy II. [...] The replacement will begin in the Round of 8. For consistancy and fairness, they will keep all Ro16 games scheduled to be played on Demon's Forst to remain.
I don't think we will see an overhaul of the map, they will play the remaining games and quietly dispose of it.
Jaedong Rock (I seem to remember Flash having the tendency to forget how to play once carriers enter the game) Bisu (I seriously don't think he'll win, but whatever. He's still Bisu) Yarnc (Normally I wouldn't support his ZvP but who the hell's BackHo?)
On January 23 2008 09:09 Hot_Bid wrote: Rock vs. Flash Rock is a simple man. His PvT formula is 2-base with a reaver and then straight to Carriers. He does it every. Single. Game. Good thing for him that Flash sucks against Carriers. Look for Flash to attempt to end the game before the blimps show up (just like he did the last time they played on Fantasy).
That Carriers >> Flash stereotype is going to die out pretty soon. Flash is on fire. His win vs free was amazing. Free took out half of Flash's SCVs and lots of mining time with his proxy and then followed by 2 gate Carriers. Flash somehow haxed himself a huge goliath/tank army when Free advanced with Carrier/Goonzeal and stomped all over Free's army. The Carriers were picked off and shot down perfectly.
The map was Carrier friendly Loki II.
Then again, I have no idea how the tree stumps will affect PvT. Goliaths could go through hell trying to get to carriers. On the other hand goon/zeal could have trouble engaging and flanking pushes.
SEA > JAEDONG!!!!!! This isn't a real prediction because I honestly have no idea what's going to happen in this game, and as a result i have to predict my favourite player will beat my second favourite player
Flash > Rock, depending on the problems laying mines within the forest the map could be pretty good for TvP, but since all the expos are so close together a bunch of carriers can wreck a lot of shit. Either Flash is gonna kill Rock before carriers matter, or Rock is gonna carrier Flash to death. I don't see many other possibilities.
Oh man, too bad I have a test tomorrow and can't watch... or can I?
Jaedong > Sea Sorry Steve, Jaedong's onfireness is slightly more than Sea's onfireness Flash > Rock ROCK MAKE BLIMP Bisu > July As much as I hate the guy... I think July's fallen far enough that a victory here would surprise me BackHo > Yarnc I think people don't give BackHo enough credit (*cough* Hot_Bid *cough*). He shows potential, I just think we haven't seen enough of him to accurately judge his ability. That being said, Yarnc has been sucking lately.
On January 23 2008 09:17 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: Jaedong Rock (I seem to remember Flash having the tendency to forget how to play once carriers enter the game) Bisu (I seriously don't think he'll win, but whatever. He's still Bisu) Yarnc (Normally I wouldn't support his ZvP but who the hell's BackHo?)
that part about flash not being able to win against carriers.. I remember one game where flash beat free when free had carriers on Loki 2(which should be a toss map?)
i hope that jaedong wins altho i hav the same feeling from the jaedong vs savior game where i thought that maybe savior would beat jaedong hopefully the outcome will be the same too
Jaedong - I love Jaedong Flash - his carrier handicap seems to have disappeared... his counter to free's carriers was beautiful to watch... the blimps were basically made redundant in the face of flash's goliaths. Bisu - Really... I would love to see July win, but I don't think he has it in him. Furthermore, whatever you say about Bisu, he really creates some great games to watch. I think a Ro8 without Bisu would be lacking. Yarnc - he played terribly last week... but as people have said, BackHo should not be in this competition.
On January 23 2008 09:09 Hot_Bid wrote: 80% of the audience will leave the studio or shut down their stream before this game starts. But hey, PvZ on a new map is still exciting so it may be worth watching just for that. BackHo is a beneficiary of the current set of Pro-Toss maps, because there's no way in hell he belongs in the OSL. Yarnc has beaten Bisu recently. But he is sometimes prone to ridiculous fits of bad play (see previous game vs. Frozean, ugh).
I don't understand why people hate this guy, i love BackHo and his PvZ is not that bad, let see what happens at least let's give him a try! If i only could (i am in the office :-( ) i surely wouldn't turn off my stream before this! He will surprise u all, starting from tonight!
jd > sea - iam jd fun so it is easy for me flash > rock - flash play great vs free and his carriers july > bisu - july play really good last matches so i guess he is confident, bisu is loseing so he isn't confident backho > yarnc - look at last match of both players from previous week
Bisu's form against Jaedong was hardly poor, lawd. You could highlight errors in his play I'm sure, but it would have flattened any zerg bar the perfect Savior or Jaedong playing as he did. It is Bisu's weakest map and he has tried a few unusual things on it (ie, against GGplay), however.
That said, Bisu played acceptably against Xellos/Iris, so he should be fine.
if i would know how liquidbet works i would vote for sea ( cuz he is terran ) flash ( cuz ... ) july ( we got the same weight ? ) yarnc ( cuz i always lose vs p )
and probably would be totally wrong and quit betting after the first try anyway
On January 23 2008 19:17 {ToT}ColmA wrote: if i would know how liquidbet works i would vote for sea ( cuz he is terran ) flash ( cuz ... ) july ( we got the same weight ? ) yarnc ( cuz i always lose vs p )
and probably would be totally wrong and quit betting after the first try anyway
On January 23 2008 19:17 {ToT}ColmA wrote: if i would know how liquidbet works i would vote for sea ( cuz he is terran ) flash ( cuz ... ) july ( we got the same weight ? ) yarnc ( cuz i always lose vs p )
and probably would be totally wrong and quit betting after the first try anyway
hehehehe
you know its funny, i have the same yarnc sympathy. zvt is always so much easier for meeeee
On January 23 2008 19:17 {ToT}ColmA wrote: if i would know how liquidbet works i would vote for sea ( cuz he is terran ) flash ( cuz ... ) july ( we got the same weight ? ) yarnc ( cuz i always lose vs p )
and probably would be totally wrong and quit betting after the first try anyway
hehehehe
you know its funny, i have the same yarnc sympathy. zvt is always so much easier for meeeee
dieee terrannzzzzz
haha same here, i find myself quite comfortable in ZvT whereas in ZvP i more often than not end up getting overrolled. I dunno, I think ZvP requires u to be a much faster player (macro/apm-wise) than ZvT and 100 apm just gets u fucked in zvp from mid to lategame, whereas i can be pretty effective even mid-late game against T with only 100 apm.
ok so i have nothing to talk about at this exact point in time really (since the matches have not started yet)
jaedong vs sea should be really interesting because of two reasons
1) they both don't fuckup early game often. this is perhaps the most annoying thing for two reasons. first and obviously, its extremely frustrating to stay up really late to get fucked by a short game. second, and more importantly, players who do stupid early game fuckups don't demonstrate the potential and awesomeness of the map. this should be an exciting match because both players are smart enough to try to force this game out into the long term so we SHOULD THEORETICALLY see some kick ass action
2) (as a result of part 1) katrina offers potential for sweet fucking games. its a map that has a ton of expansions (yaaay macro) no good route to push along (yaaay counter attacks) and is a surprisingly large map that allows for some more interesting strategies. I say large because the expansions are arranged in a wierd swastika type pattern that forces those corner natural expansions to be EXTREMELY far away from eachother. this allows zerg in the mid game to take expansions on opposite corners and to feel relatively safe PURELY because of distance (who needs defense anyways).
At the same time, though zerg gets to take alot of expansions in the mid-late game, terran also has an EXTREMELY easily defendable 3rd gas and decently defendable mineral naturals. Whereas many ZvT on standard maps (python) revolves around zerg holding steady w/ 3-4 gas until the 2 base terran runs dry, on katrina we see the 5-6 gas zerg trying to hold until the 3+ base terran runs dry. Moreover, on a python-like map, if the terran loses momentum in the mid-game, he's virtually doomed vs a player who can suck up expansions and apply appropriate pressure. On the other hand, on katrina, a terran player can lose momentum, and yet still have the opportunity to rebuild a large aggro-macro big army and take control of the game again.
man i wish there was a ventrilo channel i could blab on about this shit w/.
this is a really interesting position for jaedong. he has the wide side of sea's main to his front, so he can harass easily w/ mutalisks and be aware of aggressing units. although its fairly obvious jaedong is going to be opting to take the right side of the map in the later stages of the game, this doesn't change the fact that its SOOO out of the way for sea to attack it.
I'd give the advantage to jaedong just based on the positions (whee)
what the fuck is this shit of an intro edit: basically its progamers acting around in a white room. fuck, atleast do it on a street or something (like shinhan s3)
Sea has built 1 supply depot and doesn't seem to be doing anything else w/ it. we are probably going to be seeing a fast CC from sea. Jaedong now spots Sea. Drone also scounting forth from jaedong.
OH OOPS, there's the Barrax. i was wroooong; no CC first for Sea : ]
wow lol now those daum fucktards even opened up a channel 5 & 6 for streaming although there isnt a single user on stream 3 & 4 cus they are bugged and u cant join em. Of course channel 5 & 6 are also bugged and unjoinable D:
expansion now complete for sea. sea begins his gas and is killing the neutral power generator at his choke. gas up for jaedong and he's toootally building a lair right now.
Jaedong re-orients his drones mining gas so that they mine from the optimal side.
Power generator dead for sea now and jaedong still is making drones and whatnot.
lots of drones being made for jaedong, and no sunken colony for defense.
OOOHHH fairly early engineering bay for sea for +1 attack upgrade. no academy in sight. this implies that sea is going for a late-game oriented build (yaaay)
Spire now started for jaedong (did i even mention he started a lair? lol oops). Jaedong kills a scouting SCV and continues to make drones. Jaedong expanding to the top right natural corner expansion.
Omg, I still love blizzard soundtrack, especially the broodwar terran music (what was playing just seconds ago). I know we are not supposed to talk about streams, but it seems that Daum messed up the streaming rooms - there are two completely full, but the three others which are supposed to be open are not. Maybe they will fix it with time.
Jaedong opens up a standard 3 hatchery before pool. sea opens up w/ an equally standard 1 rax super fast CC opening. things proceed standardly until sea walks out w/ 12 marines and 2 medics lagging WAY behind. Jaedong flanks this w/ about 16 speed lings and sea is in "super duper fucked" mode. at this point, sea scrambles to make more marines, at which point he realizes jaedong's mutalisks are finished. sea double scrambles to make a ton of turrets, which sorta prevent jaedong from winning immediately.
however, sea had his factory and starport placed a little far forward on his choke, forcing sea to run his marines around to try to defend his main CC and his front choke. Jaedong just kept the marine numbers super low until he got 2 lurkers. sea GG'd before the lurkers even got the chance to burrow.
Sea shouldnt of destroyed his wall Just played behind his wall, Play it like FBH did vs Savior, since Jae got his 3rd expo early FBH wouldve won this game, Sea lost it
what's ridiculous is jaedong was doing a safe expo build oriented toward late game, and he can still be aggressive and win outright with his early units, how scary
12 lings, good muta micro, and the T crumbles, LJD is really quite scary
as soon as Sea lost that first group to lings only, it was over
IF Sea had built 2 firebats instead of meds, or IF he had his marines an inch lower, he'd be even or have a shot to win (not even ahead). you just can't make mistakes against this level of ZvT.
On January 23 2008 19:53 Sunyveil wrote: yeah I don't know what sea was doing with those early marines...
he was going out to pressure LJD to make sunkens, that's always why Terrans move out with early marines, he just got caught in a bad spot against a good ling flank and 3 seconds too early, a small mistake that usually doesn't mean much but not against the best
On January 23 2008 19:53 Sunyveil wrote: yeah I don't know what sea was doing with those early marines...
he was going out to pressure LJD to make sunkens, that's always why Terrans move out with early marines, he just got caught in a bad spot against a good ling flank and 3 seconds too early, a small mistake that usually doesn't mean much but not against the best
no, I meant when they were just sitting there as the lings raped them. I think if sea was more on top of his game, he would have moved them back to let the medics do their magic on them
haHA this OSL intro is awesome, please lose the "queer"-posts...
this reminds me abit of the greatest of all time intro i think OSL Gilette 2004 hmmm, the one with oov slamming the ground and reach getting alot of screen!
This is how baldy sea was raped, you think IRIS will stand a chanse?
Ok ok i know the marines in the start was the main thing here, but still... didnt see a single mistake from jaedong, he seems like a monster, and he is calm too.
its his ridic high apm for zerg.. only player ive seen w/ consistently higher is bisu. it remains to be seen if jaedong has bisu's number.. even though he won their last encounter.. bisu hardly played his best
On January 23 2008 20:01 AnOth3rDAy wrote: haHA this OSL intro is awesome, please lose the "queer"-posts...
this reminds me abit of the greatest of all time intro i think OSL Gilette 2004 hmmm, the one with oov slamming the ground and reach getting alot of screen!
On January 23 2008 20:01 AnOth3rDAy wrote: haHA this OSL intro is awesome, please lose the "queer"-posts...
this reminds me abit of the greatest of all time intro i think OSL Gilette 2004 hmmm, the one with oov slamming the ground and reach getting alot of screen!
you must be high
As much as i would like to, no
Nah seriously its a cool intro.. the comparison there was mostly because of the white clean background though.. they act abit "cooler" in gilette 2004.
Anyway... this intro is AWESOME, ma jae yoon omg! lee jaedong omg JULY omg hahaha
You cant expect them to be as manly as you, Mr.Lumberjack with axe and beard.
On January 23 2008 20:01 AnOth3rDAy wrote: haHA this OSL intro is awesome, please lose the "queer"-posts...
this reminds me abit of the greatest of all time intro i think OSL Gilette 2004 hmmm, the one with oov slamming the ground and reach getting alot of screen!
you must be high
As much as i would like to, no
Nah seriously its a cool intro.. the comparison there was mostly because of the white clean background though.. they act abit "cooler" in gilette 2004.
Anyway... this intro is AWESOME, ma jae yoon omg! lee jaedong omg JULY omg hahaha
You cant expect them to be as manly as you, Mr.Lumberjack with axe and beard.
err no?
gillette was awesome because it was superduper fast paced with awesome poses. this one is just plain homosexual and only for the female fans.
On January 23 2008 20:07 Storchen wrote: lol what was thename of this map? I thought it said "Teutuburger" in the countdown screen :O
that is entirely possible, if you read the history of this short-lived map, it should be a reminiscence of the assault on the romans in that very forest. Ok, maybe the Koreans misspelt it, but we know what they mean
On January 23 2008 20:01 AnOth3rDAy wrote: haHA this OSL intro is awesome, please lose the "queer"-posts...
this reminds me abit of the greatest of all time intro i think OSL Gilette 2004 hmmm, the one with oov slamming the ground and reach getting alot of screen!
you must be high
As much as i would like to, no
Nah seriously its a cool intro.. the comparison there was mostly because of the white clean background though.. they act abit "cooler" in gilette 2004.
Anyway... this intro is AWESOME, ma jae yoon omg! lee jaedong omg JULY omg hahaha
You cant expect them to be as manly as you, Mr.Lumberjack with axe and beard.
err no?
gillette was awesome because it was superduper fast paced with awesome poses. this one is just plain homosexual and only for the female fans.
Err yes, thats what i said. They are "cooler".
I like it the way it is. End of discussion please.
On January 23 2008 20:10 last)Immortal wrote: What is Jaedong's apm? and where did you find it?
they showed it at the wrapup for the last game it was around 470 i think average and a high of 531 last game.. low of like 400? i could be wrong on the low.. but the high and average are accurate
Flash saw the support bay, but that doesnt change the fact that he is way behind on tech - starting an academy now. Rock is beating his head against the choke which is protected by a bunker now.
Drop incoming for Rock, no reaver yet but goon and 2 zeals being ferried to flash's expansion. Yet another 2 goons to be sent there and stargate going up.
On January 23 2008 20:10 last)Immortal wrote: What is Jaedong's apm? and where did you find it?
they showed it at the wrapup for the last game it was around 470 i think average and a high of 531 last game.. low of like 400? i could be wrong on the low.. but the high and average are accurate
OMFG, is he the Nada of Zerg or what?? Zerg powerhouse :D
On January 23 2008 20:21 samachking wrote: A player who raped Jaedong in Bo5 In Rock I Believe Bacchus OSL winner
youve been smokin;) nah seriously, i think rock was abit lucky there.. ok he played good but after those zealots doing their job like that even daezzang would have won that. (well probably not lol)
Damn guess we're in for some pretty quick games. I might actually loose my excuse for not working :D
Going to be interesting to see how Bisu copes with July on Blue Storm with regards to all the JD vs. Bisu talk as it was only the map that enabled JD to win. I don't think so and expect Bisu to unfortunately take July down. Even if it's a supposedly Zerg favoured map Bisu is still Bisu I think when it comes to his vZ play.
both were 290 average apm, 350 highs, rock was an abysmal 191 low, flash was barely above 200. now compare to the gosu, imba progamers around jaedong/bisu... high always above 500.. ive seen bisus as high as 570's.. lows always around mid-high 300s
On January 23 2008 20:27 suprabum3 wrote: both were 290 average apm, 350 highs, rock was an abysmal 191 low, flash was barely above 200. now compare to the gosu, imba progamers around jaedong/bisu... high always above 500.. ive seen bisus as high as 570's.. lows always around mid-high 300s
doesnt say anything... if u ever saw a savior fpvod in his prime u'd know that a constant 200-300 APM are more than enough to dominate if used efficiently.
On January 23 2008 20:27 suprabum3 wrote: both were 290 average apm, 350 highs, rock was an abysmal 191 low, flash was barely above 200. now compare to the gosu, imba progamers around jaedong/bisu... high always above 500.. ive seen bisus as high as 570's.. lows always around mid-high 300s
doesnt say anything... if u ever saw a savior fpvod in his prime u'd know that a constant 200-300 APM are more than enough to dominate if used efficiently.
means more than you think.. the people who dominate almost always average higher actions per minute than their opponents.. savior was one of the few exceptions.. his game sense was far superior to anyones during his time of domination..
What APM you need also depends on the complexity of the game going on. Rock had pretty much easy management, as he was calling the shots and dominating flash earlyon. If you decide where and what to fight, micro becomes alot more easy and you do not need as much APM as when reacting.
And 300 APM, come on, what are you complaining about? More than enough to manage.
lol, im not complaining.. just saying that how many players can even hit the high 500 in apm? it allows for more effective and consistent multi-base expanding while also keeping constant pressure and re-assigning/micro/macroing troops all at the same time.. being able to do more in smaller frames of time is never a bad thing
Bisu reacts to the early pool with forge before nexus. First six lings heading out, trying to catch the scouting probe. One cannons almost done warping and lings are chasing the probe instead of heading up.
Two cannons done before Nexus goes up, seems that July only wanted to force cannons, not go for an early assault. Hydra den going up and hatchery at expansion. Early hydrapush incoming?
maybe it was somekind of a bug, dt was popping out just as gateway died
edit: no it wasnt finished at all..
Bisu played too risky. he didn't have enough cannons and the third one was placed badly. He couldn't get scout outside of his base so he didn't know july was making 2hatch all-in strat.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game. no gateways, no forge, this game was 100% over and he would have ggd in like the next 5 seconds
reminds me of swedish warcraft player madfrog who "accidently" pushed the power button on his computer when he was getting raped to force a regame (which he won).
For the fans, a regame will surely be favorable. And I agree with Hot_Bid, if you make a living out of gaming, if it wasn't your fault that the disc happened, if you have the chance for a rematch, why not take it?
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
Bisu should accept the lost even if they offer him a rematch. He must save his honour - the "gg" was comin any second, but the nasty drop screen appeared .
the more i think about it, the more i have mixed feelings about it...
sure, bisu would've lost, but remember how anal they were about savior taking off his headphones two seconds before typing "gg"? if players are required to type "gg", they should also get the chance...
I guess soon everyone will blame bisu for making bisu build every game and lose. just like savior is goin freaking hive each game and it is not owning anymore. Bisu need to refuse the bisu build!
shmeh i think everyone has to agree w/ hot_bid on this one.
any event has to have very black and white rules when dealing w/ certain occurrences. in the case of a disconnect, i'm pretty sure the rule is "insta-regame." if OSL decided to use this one game as an exception, then the rule would serve no purpose and players would be arguing after EVERY disconnect.
well at first OGN announcers were leaning in favour of July taking the game, but not sure about now... stream is getting really laggy and i barely hear what they are saying
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
this is completely different from a bad call in a soccer or basketball game... this is similar to the flashlights of a soccer stadium going out in the last seconds of a game in overtime which one team leads 3-0. U think the game would be completely replayed in that case? I think not.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
this is completely different from a bad call in a soccer or basketball game... this is similar to the flashlights of a soccer stadium going out in the last seconds of a game in overtime which one team leads 3-0. U think the game would be completely replayed in that case? I think not.
why would a game with a score of 3-0 go to overtime
On January 23 2008 20:45 Nintu wrote: The OSL would lose all it's credibility if this was a re-play.
again, i think opposite. i think OSL is FORCED to have a regame
Seriously man, what you talking about.. the game was over. Please...
anyone here think it wasnt over, please say so. ANYONE...
i'm not arguing that the game wasn't over, obviously it was over
but rules-wise, it should be instant-regame on disconnect, there's no slippery slope then
what if bisu disconnected before the gate was dead? what would they do? regame? but you can calculate when the DT pops and when the hydras would kill the gate, so why not just award it to July?
On January 23 2008 20:45 Nintu wrote: The OSL would lose all it's credibility if this was a re-play.
again, i think opposite. i think OSL is FORCED to have a regame
Seriously man, what you talking about.. the game was over. Please...
anyone here think it wasnt over, please say so. ANYONE...
i'm not arguing that the game wasn't over, obviously it was over
but rules-wise, it should be instant-regame on disconnect
If there was an official rule book you could reference... MAYBE. However OGN does this on a case by case basis, and you cannot presume to know their rules.
The essence of fair play was maintained, and that is the important thing.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
this is completely different from a bad call in a soccer or basketball game... this is similar to the flashlights of a soccer stadium going out in the last seconds of a game in overtime which one team leads 3-0. U think the game would be completely replayed in that case? I think not.
why would a game with a score of 3-0 go to overtime
U obviously dont know much about soccer ^^ It could easily be 0-0 after 90 minutes and 0-3 after 120. Unlikely, but possible. I used the wrong word though i guess, what I really meant was extra time, i e the 1-5 minutes after the regular 90 minutes are over.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
This is exactly why I respect progamers far more than athletes in any other sport. Good sportsmanship is a requirement for progaming. In every other sport, it's just a foul, and you'll get a fine/suspension if you do something really outrageous.
There's no steroid usage, dog fighting, or throwing punches. If OGN allowed a regame, then Bisu should concede.
On January 23 2008 20:55 GeLaar wrote: again, they busted savior's balls for taking off the headphones. appearently, then it _didn't_ matter that the game was over. now suddenly it does.
Still a bit confused about what happened there.. They aren't playing again, next match up annouced. I would assume that July won... but i'm not entirely sure. Perhaps a decision is pending? July looked pretty mad.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
this is completely different from a bad call in a soccer or basketball game... this is similar to the flashlights of a soccer stadium going out in the last seconds of a game in overtime which one team leads 3-0. U think the game would be completely replayed in that case? I think not.
why would a game with a score of 3-0 go to overtime
U obviously dont know much about soccer ^^ It could easily be 0-0 after 90 minutes and 0-3 after 120. Unlikely, but possible. I used the wrong word though i guess, what I really meant was extra time, i e the 1-5 minutes after the regular 90 minutes are over.
oh
overtime in all the sports i watch is like next point wins because its a tie
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
This is exactly why I respect progamers far more than athletes in any other sport. Good sportsmanship is a requirement for progaming. In every other sport, it's just a foul, and you'll get a fine/suspension if you do something really outrageous.
There's no steroid usage, dog fighting, or throwing punches. OGN should allow for a regame, and Bisu should concede.
this is mostly because it's not a mainstream sport, if millions of dollars were on the line, your "honor" goes right out the window
sure it's easy to concede when the culture and community is still small and close knit and your entire life isn't banking on one game
osl finals, yellow's last chance at an OSL title, 5th game final set this happens, you think he'd not take the option at a regame? what if the prize money was a whole year's salary?
On January 23 2008 20:55 GeLaar wrote: again, they busted savior's balls for taking off the headphones. appearently, then it _didn't_ matter that the game was over. now suddenly it does.
This was due to a technical problem though.
all the more a reason why a decision should be automatically made against bisu.
Well Kespa referees get to decide whether or not there will be a rematch in case of a disconnect, and if there's a pretty close to 0% chance one of the players will come back, they just give that player a loss and there's no re-game. There is no rule that says disconnect = auto-regame.
This looked like slightly modded Savior build, go for lingspeed to prevent probe scouting, hit when the first corsair comes out and slightly before the first DTs are ready. His fast pool also delayed corsairs and DTs.
On January 23 2008 20:45 Nintu wrote: The OSL would lose all it's credibility if this was a re-play.
again, i think opposite. i think OSL is FORCED to have a regame
Seriously man, what you talking about.. the game was over. Please...
anyone here think it wasnt over, please say so. ANYONE...
i'm not arguing that the game wasn't over, obviously it was over
but rules-wise, it should be instant-regame on disconnect
If there was an official rule book you could reference... MAYBE. However OGN does this on a case by case basis, and you cannot presume to know their rules.
The essence of fair play was maintained, and that is the important thing.
PS fuck bisu and his crying about it.
mani ftw! good referees make their calls on a case by case basis and not on some stupid set in stone rule. i guess anyone with common sense would have made the same decision if that replay would have been presented to him with the question if its a regame or not.
On January 23 2008 20:55 GeLaar wrote: again, they busted savior's balls for taking off the headphones. appearently, then it _didn't_ matter that the game was over. now suddenly it does.
This was due to a technical problem though.
all the more a reason why a decision should be automatically made against bisu.
You mean because it's his responsibility to make sure the computers work and are set up correctly? Removing your headphones and your computer crashing aren't really the same thing.
On January 23 2008 20:57 Alethios wrote: Still a bit confused about what happened there.. They aren't playing again, next match up annouced. I would assume that July won... but i'm not entirely sure. Perhaps a decision is pending? July looked pretty mad.
my korean isn't exactly great, but from what i understood from the announcement, it ended with "however, given that bisu had such and such, and july had his hydras, july gets the win."
i'm fairly sure about the "july gets the win" part at the end.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
this is completely different from a bad call in a soccer or basketball game... this is similar to the flashlights of a soccer stadium going out in the last seconds of a game in overtime which one team leads 3-0. U think the game would be completely replayed in that case? I think not.
why would a game with a score of 3-0 go to overtime
U obviously dont know much about soccer ^^ It could easily be 0-0 after 90 minutes and 0-3 after 120. Unlikely, but possible. I used the wrong word though i guess, what I really meant was extra time, i e the 1-5 minutes after the regular 90 minutes are over.
oh
overtime in all the sports i watch is like next point wins because its a tie
i dont watch soccer though yeah haha
In some sports (like Rugby), extra time is played simply to make up the time lost during the game due to interruptions and such.
So officials ruled that July won? Would have liked to see Bisu concede graciously though.
On January 23 2008 21:00 Nyovne wrote: Even with 1 DT out hed have lost, just split the 12 hydras + more on the way and rape everything silly. Nothing 1 DT can do about that hehe.
Didn't july not have an overlord there? I know bisu killed one, not sure if there was another already there.
On January 23 2008 20:55 GeLaar wrote: again, they busted savior's balls for taking off the headphones. appearently, then it _didn't_ matter that the game was over. now suddenly it does.
This was due to a technical problem though.
all the more a reason why a decision should be automatically made against bisu.
You mean because it's his responsibility to make sure the computers work and are set up correctly? Removing your headphones and your computer crashing aren't really the same thing.
yes, it's not the same thing. in savior's case, he did something wrong and they had a rule for it, and he got a penalty point. in bisu's case, he did nothing wrong and they had a rule that would have helped him, and it was not applied.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
This is exactly why I respect progamers far more than athletes in any other sport. Good sportsmanship is a requirement for progaming. In every other sport, it's just a foul, and you'll get a fine/suspension if you do something really outrageous.
There's no steroid usage, dog fighting, or throwing punches. OGN should allow for a regame, and Bisu should concede.
this is mostly because it's not a mainstream sport, if millions of dollars were on the line, your "honor" goes right out the window
sure it's easy to concede when the culture and community is still small and close knit and your entire life isn't banking on one game
osl finals, yellow's last chance at an OSL title, 5th game final set this happens, you think he'd not take the option at a regame? what if the prize money was a whole year's salary?
but the prize money isnt a whole years salary. And in fact the fans worship the ones with really high sportsmanship, thus these guys make more money from commercials and stuff. If you come with a financial argument, you have to see that things like conceding the game out of manner when it was clearly over are the things that form ur image as an Idol for the fans. The more fans, the more money u can earn.
So Bisu is now 0-4 in his last 4 PvZ. (gasp!) Looks like someone is spiraling downwards.
In other news Lee Jae Dong is on an 11 game winning streak and is 16-1 in his last 17 games. With his recent win he also climed to 4'th in ELO peaks behind only Oov, Savior, and Nada and is now an undisputed ass-raping monster.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
This is exactly why I respect progamers far more than athletes in any other sport. Good sportsmanship is a requirement for progaming. In every other sport, it's just a foul, and you'll get a fine/suspension if you do something really outrageous.
There's no steroid usage, dog fighting, or throwing punches. OGN should allow for a regame, and Bisu should concede.
this is mostly because it's not a mainstream sport, if millions of dollars were on the line, your "honor" goes right out the window
sure it's easy to concede when the culture and community is still small and close knit and your entire life isn't banking on one game
osl finals, yellow's last chance at an OSL title, 5th game final set this happens, you think he'd not take the option at a regame? what if the prize money was a whole year's salary?
but the prize money isnt a whole years salary. And in fact the fans worship the ones with really high sportsmanship, thus these guys make more money from commercials and stuff. If you come with a financial argument, you have to see that things like conceding the game out of manner when it was clearly over are the things that form ur image as an Idol for the fans. The more fans, the more money u can earn.
i don't think you understand what i'm saying, if progaming was for millions of dollars in salary, an OSL win matters much more than fan perception, as a team will pay for success
imo and i talked to mani about this (and we disagree) the best solution is to replay the game from the moment of disconnect (where bisu would 99.99% lose). but since that's not available, they can't award the game to july because there was still a possibility, however small, of him building a gate somewhere in the corner of his base and killing the hydras and coming back. it's like 0.0001% but i think they have to do it.
edit: look, i'm not saying the "right" or "fair" outcome didn't happen; july won that game. i'm just saying it's something OGN needs to think hard about.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
This is exactly why I respect progamers far more than athletes in any other sport. Good sportsmanship is a requirement for progaming. In every other sport, it's just a foul, and you'll get a fine/suspension if you do something really outrageous.
There's no steroid usage, dog fighting, or throwing punches. OGN should allow for a regame, and Bisu should concede.
this is mostly because it's not a mainstream sport, if millions of dollars were on the line, your "honor" goes right out the window
sure it's easy to concede when the culture and community is still small and close knit and your entire life isn't banking on one game
osl finals, yellow's last chance at an OSL title, 5th game final set this happens, you think he'd not take the option at a regame? what if the prize money was a whole year's salary?
I can't say for sure given your extremely stretched and hypothetical situation, but I'd expect him to concede the match if he was seconds away from typing "gg". Progamers are regarded as pop idols and quite differently from athletes in other sports. You do not hear girly screams of delight erupt when someone makes a particularly beautiful jump shot. They act by and are held to a much higher standard of honor and sportsmanship, even if its just by their fans.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
This is exactly why I respect progamers far more than athletes in any other sport. Good sportsmanship is a requirement for progaming. In every other sport, it's just a foul, and you'll get a fine/suspension if you do something really outrageous.
There's no steroid usage, dog fighting, or throwing punches. OGN should allow for a regame, and Bisu should concede.
this is mostly because it's not a mainstream sport, if millions of dollars were on the line, your "honor" goes right out the window
sure it's easy to concede when the culture and community is still small and close knit and your entire life isn't banking on one game
osl finals, yellow's last chance at an OSL title, 5th game final set this happens, you think he'd not take the option at a regame? what if the prize money was a whole year's salary?
but the prize money isnt a whole years salary. And in fact the fans worship the ones with really high sportsmanship, thus these guys make more money from commercials and stuff. If you come with a financial argument, you have to see that things like conceding the game out of manner when it was clearly over are the things that form ur image as an Idol for the fans. The more fans, the more money u can earn.
i don't think you understand what i'm saying, if progaming was for millions of dollars in salary, an OSL win matters much more than fan perception, as a team will pay for success
imo and i talked to mani about this (and we disagree) the best solution is to replay the game from the moment of disconnect (where bisu would 99.99% lose). but since that's not available, they can't award the game to july because there was still a possibility, however small, of him building a gate somewhere in the corner of his base and killing the hydras and coming back. it's like 0.0001% but i think they have to do it.
There was an experimental tool at some point in time that allowed to save games from replays. It would be useful in those cases. For today, it would make for a pretty hilarious gg 5 seconds after the game restart though.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
This is exactly why I respect progamers far more than athletes in any other sport. Good sportsmanship is a requirement for progaming. In every other sport, it's just a foul, and you'll get a fine/suspension if you do something really outrageous.
There's no steroid usage, dog fighting, or throwing punches. OGN should allow for a regame, and Bisu should concede.
this is mostly because it's not a mainstream sport, if millions of dollars were on the line, your "honor" goes right out the window
sure it's easy to concede when the culture and community is still small and close knit and your entire life isn't banking on one game
osl finals, yellow's last chance at an OSL title, 5th game final set this happens, you think he'd not take the option at a regame? what if the prize money was a whole year's salary?
I can't say for sure given your extremely stretched and hypothetical situation, but I'd expect him to concede the match if he was seconds away from typing "gg". Progamers are regarded as pop idols and quite differently from athletes in other sports. You do not hear girly screams of delight erupt when someone makes a particularly beautiful jump shot. They act by and are held to a much higher standard of honor and sportsmanship, even if its just by their fans.
i'm saying it's changing, if it were 2001 i'm certain nobody takes the regame, but in 2015 when esports is likely more mainstream who knows? it's something OGN will have to look at
On January 23 2008 21:11 iori_LT wrote: em.. was it just me or beckho could have easily cannon rushed yarnc by building pylon between those 2 gasers? :/
the lings still would be able to surround and kill the pylon
On January 23 2008 21:11 iori_LT wrote: em.. was it just me or beckho could have easily cannon rushed yarnc by building pylon between those 2 gasers? :/
the lings still would be able to surround and kill the pylon
lair and evo chamber as well, the first corsair meets hydras and scouts to his heart's content. a 2nd corsair takes care of the over home, a robo is built and a support bay started. A 2nd stargate too !
A shuttle drops a probe at the island expo right next to the main.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
This is exactly why I respect progamers far more than athletes in any other sport. Good sportsmanship is a requirement for progaming. In every other sport, it's just a foul, and you'll get a fine/suspension if you do something really outrageous.
There's no steroid usage, dog fighting, or throwing punches. OGN should allow for a regame, and Bisu should concede.
this is mostly because it's not a mainstream sport, if millions of dollars were on the line, your "honor" goes right out the window
sure it's easy to concede when the culture and community is still small and close knit and your entire life isn't banking on one game
osl finals, yellow's last chance at an OSL title, 5th game final set this happens, you think he'd not take the option at a regame? what if the prize money was a whole year's salary?
but the prize money isnt a whole years salary. And in fact the fans worship the ones with really high sportsmanship, thus these guys make more money from commercials and stuff. If you come with a financial argument, you have to see that things like conceding the game out of manner when it was clearly over are the things that form ur image as an Idol for the fans. The more fans, the more money u can earn.
i don't think you understand what i'm saying, if progaming was for millions of dollars in salary, an OSL win matters much more than fan perception, as a team will pay for success
imo and i talked to mani about this (and we disagree) the best solution is to replay the game from the moment of disconnect (where bisu would 99.99% lose). but since that's not available, they can't award the game to july because there was still a possibility, however small, of him building a gate somewhere in the corner of his base and killing the hydras and coming back. it's like 0.0001% but i think they have to do it.
There was an experimental tool at some point in time that allowed to save games from replays. It would be useful in those cases. For today, it would make for a pretty hilarious gg 5 seconds after the game restart though.
I think the rule for every major tournament is that if a player has undeniable advantage then the game should ruled in that players favor.
July had that strategy specially prepared for the match, so to have him regame would be giving Bisu a very very large, unfair advantage, therefore I think giving July the win and not have them re-game would be the best decision.
Backho had some fun slaughtering overlords, is expanding at the bottom of his mainbase. The choke might allow him to hold this position better than he usually could while Yarnc is adding spire and many hydras. Flock of scourge also incoming.
4-5 overlords drop onto the expansion, scourge take care of corsairs, Backho ggs. So much for any protoss FE builds against Z today.
On January 23 2008 21:11 iori_LT wrote: em.. was it just me or beckho could have easily cannon rushed yarnc by building pylon between those 2 gasers? :/
You can't build on the ground near the geysers (its about a 5x15 matrix)
On January 23 2008 21:21 HaXxorIzed wrote: I would have hoped Bisu would prepare for all in pushes, given his straight up pvz reputation. /sigh. A disappointing night of games.
I've actually never seen bisu do anything but FE against zergs. I really wonder why, because i'm sure with his speed and ingenuity he'd be able to pull off wins without doing the same, predictable "safe" build every time.
On January 23 2008 21:22 suprabum3 wrote: so is bisu out? are these one game decisions?
bisu is far from being out at this point. he's 1-1 at the moment. if he wins the next game he'll probably advance. if he loses, there's still a chance for a tie-breaker...
On January 23 2008 21:24 gondolin wrote: I don't understand, why is everyone hating yarnc? Is it because of it's game against frozean, or because he tooks yellow's nick?
On January 23 2008 21:21 HaXxorIzed wrote: I would have hoped Bisu would prepare for all in pushes, given his straight up pvz reputation. /sigh. A disappointing night of games.
I've actually never seen bisu do anything but FE against zergs. I really wonder why, because i'm sure with his speed and ingenuity he'd be able to pull off wins without doing the same, predictable "safe" build every time.
he did a 1 gate sair vs july on python in the last ODT (he lost, and ended up winning vs FBH and Shark to advance)
if he thinks his pvz skills are superior and would be better applied in longer games (less chance of loss) then he should FE every time
On January 23 2008 21:24 gondolin wrote: I don't understand, why is everyone hating yarnc? Is it because of it's game against frozean, or because he tooks yellow's nick?
Because he stole YellOw's nick.
ye, he should've chosen pink or blue, he will gain more respect
On January 23 2008 21:21 HaXxorIzed wrote: I would have hoped Bisu would prepare for all in pushes, given his straight up pvz reputation. /sigh. A disappointing night of games.
I've actually never seen bisu do anything but FE against zergs. I really wonder why, because i'm sure with his speed and ingenuity he'd be able to pull off wins without doing the same, predictable "safe" build every time.
he did a dual 9 gate -> expo -> sair on python vs this one guy, no clue. He mostly FEs but hes been known to change it up
On January 23 2008 21:21 HaXxorIzed wrote: I would have hoped Bisu would prepare for all in pushes, given his straight up pvz reputation. /sigh. A disappointing night of games.
I've actually never seen bisu do anything but FE against zergs. I really wonder why, because i'm sure with his speed and ingenuity he'd be able to pull off wins without doing the same, predictable "safe" build every time.
he did a dual 9 gate -> expo -> sair on python vs this one guy, no clue. He mostly FEs but hes been known to change it up
it was 9 gate gas sair, then attack with 2 zealots+dragoon, then dt, then expo, and it was vs. july in ODT last season
he doesn't really change up the FE but does change up his follow up after the FE, sometimes it's "hard" reaver/sair, sometimes it's "light" reaver, sometimes its his standard beesuit
lol @ sea lifting his command center accidently and suiciding his first marines. very nice flank by jaedong, but any zerg could have killed him this game.
wow the timing for that disc was almost too perfect. a few seconds earlier and a re would've occured for sure. discs are so gay they should never happen. it happens to july often i recall its unfortunate
Confidence is a good thing. And necessary to win at the highest levels of progaming. You have to have absolute faith in your ability. Or else you won't be able to execute properly because that small amount of doubt will only hinder you.
Bruce Lee talked a lot about this.
"Conciousness is the greatest hinderence of action" You have to be so confident, that you do not even give thought to your actions. They just happen.
On January 24 2008 05:16 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Confidence is a good thing. And necessary to win at the highest levels of progaming. You have to have absolute faith in your ability. Or else you won't be able to execute properly because that small amount of doubt will only hinder you.
Bruce Lee talked a lot about this.
"Conciousness is the greatest hinderence of action" You have to be so confident, that you do not even give thought to your actions. They just happen.
He's had that confidence for months now though. This is the first I've seen him with the patented Savior "That was easy!" face. (Of course, that game was easy. Sea... )
On January 24 2008 06:26 puLs.ReADy wrote: I just realised that this was the 6th game between Jaedong and Sea... Jaedong made today the result equal 3-3 ;0
On January 23 2008 20:57 Hot_Bid wrote: this is mostly because it's not a mainstream sport, if millions of dollars were on the line, your "honor" goes right out the window
sure it's easy to concede when the culture and community is still small and close knit and your entire life isn't banking on one game
osl finals, yellow's last chance at an OSL title, 5th game final set this happens, you think he'd not take the option at a regame? what if the prize money was a whole year's salary?
The logic of your posts about this seems quite flawed. If there is money is a bank, do you rob it? No, because it's not the right thing to do. There is possibility, yes, but just like you do living your whole life, you must make decisions according to your code of ethics.
So, if you replay a game you've lost just to get the result you want, you pretty much disregard the whole point of the game. The game - or any sport, in fact - is about the process than happens during play.If all you care for is getting the right result, you might just as well not play against anyone, since obviously you would prefer free wins. You could compare what you're saying to cheating: it's important for you to win the game, so you do what you can to get there (as long as you can get away with it, of course). Still, I don't think your shewed perspective of this matter will mean that you would want to cheat. Obviously, if there is a lot of pressure on people, they can become very selfish, and this is what you emphasize. What you need to realize is only that this is the bad thing to do, a reaction by instinct, and the bigger then man, the better you can set yourself apart from this.
I'm aware that you mention that the rules might dictate a re-game, but no one will force you to regame if you don't want to. It all comes down to your decision, which should be based on what is wrong and right, not what your needs are (money, recognition, etc.). Keep in mind, you're screwing the other person over by taking the regame, not just mocking the competitive scene of Starcraft in general and the game you just played.
On January 23 2008 20:43 diehilde wrote: if bisu is ANY kind of a fair sportsman he will concede the game
i disagree, if he is any type of sportsman he'll instantly take the regame
professional sports is a business and people make a living on it, you don't give away opportunities for victory and money for "honor"
if the referees make a call in your favor, you take the regame
pf I disagree and Im 100% certain that some of the respected old school progamers who still take manners seriously WOULD have conceded that game.
maybe back in 2001, but not now
if the refs make a bad call in soccer or basketball or whatever do the players who benefited from it say "well you guys are right, here take the game" ??
no, because sometimes you are on the bad end, sometimes you are on the good end, it's the nature of random chance. if you are lucky, seize it.
This is exactly why I respect progamers far more than athletes in any other sport. Good sportsmanship is a requirement for progaming. In every other sport, it's just a foul, and you'll get a fine/suspension if you do something really outrageous.
There's no steroid usage, dog fighting, or throwing punches. OGN should allow for a regame, and Bisu should concede.
this is mostly because it's not a mainstream sport, if millions of dollars were on the line, your "honor" goes right out the window
sure it's easy to concede when the culture and community is still small and close knit and your entire life isn't banking on one game
osl finals, yellow's last chance at an OSL title, 5th game final set this happens, you think he'd not take the option at a regame? what if the prize money was a whole year's salary?
As for YellOw...
On July 08 2005 08:02 FireBlast! wrote: 43) “Yellow’s GG” incident During a match Yellow is a minute away from a certain defeat. Then, suddenly his computer starts to falter and the drop screen comes up. Here, Yellow types GG like a true sportsman and leaves the game admitting defeat. After this he received an ovation from his fans, praising his manner and sportsmanship.
Granted, it wasn't game 5 of OSL final. However, whether it was a deciding StarLeague game or even just a PCBang StarLeague game 1, the idea should be the same. There should be no 'oh, we can discard honor at the highest levels because the prize money is greater'.
Mainstream sports athletes may accept bad calls (Hand of God, anyone?) but that should not be a reason for StarCraft athletes to do the same. Normative arguments should not apply here; just because other sports do it does not mean StarCraft should do the same.
The idea is to do it the best way possible - I think this method was, for all intents and purposes, the best way to resolve the issue (by KeSPA).
Remember when Midas disconnected in that game on Desperado awhile back? And he conceded the game? I wish Bisu would have done the same here - then there would be none of this nasty conflict. Midas was MUCH farther away from from losing as well.
What is with you idiots assuming Bisu refused to concede the game? That's not even a possible scenario. Here are the possible scenarios:
1) The players have no say in the decision -> They were talking to the players about the technical issue and the referees award the game to July. In this scenario, Bisu has no say in the decision one way or another, so he couldn't possibly refuse to concede the game.
2) The players have a say in the decision -> They were talking to the players about technical issues AND asking Bisu whether he wants a rematch or not, and the referees award the game to July. In this scenario, Bisu would have to refuse the rematch in order for July to be awarded the game.
Where exactly is there room for Bisu to refuse to concede in this situation? Especially when July was, in fact, declared the winner? Are you going to tell me that Bisu's body language indicates that he wasn't happy? No shit he wasn't happy, he just got fucking murdered.
It boggles my fucking mind how some of you manage to reach your conclusions.
On January 23 2008 20:57 Hot_Bid wrote: this is mostly because it's not a mainstream sport, if millions of dollars were on the line, your "honor" goes right out the window
sure it's easy to concede when the culture and community is still small and close knit and your entire life isn't banking on one game
osl finals, yellow's last chance at an OSL title, 5th game final set this happens, you think he'd not take the option at a regame? what if the prize money was a whole year's salary?
The logic of your posts about this seems quite flawed. If there is money is a bank, do you rob it? No, because it's not the right thing to do. There is possibility, yes, but just like you do living your whole life, you must make decisions according to your code of ethics.
So, if you replay a game you've lost just to get the result you want, you pretty much disregard the whole point of the game. The game - or any sport, in fact - is about the process than happens during play.If all you care for is getting the right result, you might just as well not play against anyone, since obviously you would prefer free wins. You could compare what you're saying to cheating: it's important for you to win the game, so you do what you can to get there (as long as you can get away with it, of course). Still, I don't think your shewed perspective of this matter will mean that you would want to cheat. Obviously, if there is a lot of pressure on people, they can become very selfish, and this is what you emphasize. What you need to realize is only that this is the bad thing to do, a reaction by instinct, and the bigger then man, the better you can set yourself apart from this.
I'm aware that you mention that the rules might dictate a re-game, but no one will force you to regame if you don't want to. It all comes down to your decision, which should be based on what is wrong and right, not what your needs are (money, recognition, etc.). Keep in mind, you're screwing the other person over by taking the regame, not just mocking the competitive scene of Starcraft in general and the game you just played.
champions get paid, and champions get remembered. you can be the most honorable starcraft player there is but you don't have shit on someone with a golden mouse.
you say that what happens during the game is the most important and results shouldn't matter. that's completely opposite of how it actually works. the more money is on the line, the less sportsmanship becomes a major factor. why do you think some of the most successful players in basketball are the ones who fall down at the slightest touch
There was another incident involving YellOw. I remember a YellOw vs Stork game on Peaks in OSL where Stork opened with a 1 gate robotics build and managed to get a critical shot to massacre most of YellOw's drones before it died, and then YellOw gets 6 mutas maybe and goes for a desparate counter, where he then discs. The game was replayed because the argument was YellOw's mutas may have been able to do damage to comeback despite the 3 nearly finished cannons and goons for defense (and this was before the revolution of muta micro) but it cause a lot of fuss in the bw community.
Anyways, I'd like to mention that OGN and MBC CANNOT enforce rules, as they are no longer in charge of the leagues. KeSPA has taken over since the combined PL was formed and they are in charge of making such rulings at OSL and MSL, thus the KeSPA referee at that spot had to watch the replay and decide on a ruling.
KeSPA's ruling is that if a player disconnects, the replay is analyzed and unless a clear winner is apparent, they will regame. This was the case in most games, and there were a few games where they ruled a regame because although one player had an advantage, his advantage wasn't large enough to warrant the win (YellOw vs Stork mentioned above, and I remember an AnyTime vs July on 815 where the hatch-cancel bug crashed July's Starcraft, and throwing into regame). But there have been a few cases where the win was awarded, and this is one of them.
Just wondering, how popular is Jaedong in Korea? I mean everytime I see him win, he hardly gets any cheers or none at all. And even before a game starts the "Insert name fighting" thing, his is almost always softer than his opponents. So what's up with his popularity? Is he hated for dominating too much? If that's the case, Savior who dominated for a long time sure got more cheers in one game than all of Jaedong's games combined =o
Yeah, the players have no influence over the decision (unless one was to decide against himself or something)
in this case, though, as opposed to the Midas vs Light, Bisu did not even concede for show. If I understand correctly, Midas said something along the lines of 'he was winning anyways', and that game was nowhere near as one-sided as today's.
OK, so we'll never really know what the ref talked to the players about. But considering the conversations were longer than 10 seconds, I'd assume Bisu was contesting for a regame and that July was contesting for a win. What else would they be talking and gesticulating about for so long?
Any rational knowledgeable observer would know that game was over - even if Bisu had built another gateway he would have lost his tarchives; I don't see ANY way ANY player could come back from that deficit. So I don't think that the KeSPA ruling took much time either.
So I conclude (from what I have seen) that Bisu was arguing for a regame. I'm sure most people would have acted the same way. Most progamers would go any length for that StarLeague W. I'm just saying I personally would have preferred a quick concession - you may agree or disagree, but it doesn't truly matter.
let's present a hypothetical situation, for example yellow is broke and in debt, and it's the ODT qualifiers and if he wins this next game he gets a new guaranteed contract with KTF, if not he doesn't. sportsmanship and conceding a disc game go right out the window there. in fact, even his fans would want him to take the regame.
"honor" is all relative, and it just depends on the importance of the moment. it's easy to concede meaningless games on bnet, hard to do so when the stakes are high. to suggest that one player (let's say yellow) would be honorable all the time from one example when the stakes aren't high, and when there are counter examples (L2W's, for one) doesn't prove anything.
On January 24 2008 09:03 Live2Win wrote: and I remember an AnyTime vs July on 815 where the hatch-cancel bug crashed July's Starcraft, and throwing into regame). But there have been a few cases where the win was awarded, and this is one of them.
I don't know about other programers concedeing "decided" games in the past but IMO if bisu was awarded a rematch it would be kespa's/rules fault, not bisu... Clearly he has a conflict of interest in the event of rematch therefore bisu should have no input on whither regame or not. Anyone with half a brain would conclude that he lost this game and thus I'm glad no regame was awarded. Since bisu is paid to entertain, so if kespa calls for a rematch then he has all the right to accept it IMO.
And I think that its good that bisu is confident about his late game, but if bisu is totally denied scouting (as in this case) maybe it would be smarter to play it safe by building more defense rather than more resources so that there's a HIGHER chance of it getting to a long game in the first place AND perhaps if it lasts longer you macro ability will come into play and REMOVE any disadvantage you had by making more cannons vs a expansion whore zerg.....
this is completely different from a bad call in a soccer or basketball game... this is similar to the flashlights of a soccer stadium going out in the last seconds of a game in overtime which one team leads 3-0. U think the game would be completely replayed in that case? I think not.
why would a game with a score of 3-0 go to overtime
The 3 goals were made in overtime? oh and I agree completely with diehilde... this would be the analogous situation in a soccer game. I am glad justice prevailed.
this is completely different from a bad call in a soccer or basketball game... this is similar to the flashlights of a soccer stadium going out in the last seconds of a game in overtime which one team leads 3-0. U think the game would be completely replayed in that case? I think not.
why would a game with a score of 3-0 go to overtime
The 3 goals were made in overtime? oh and I agree completely with diehilde... this would be the analogous situation in a soccer game. I am glad justice prevailed.
okay like i said i had it in my head that overtime = next goal wins, because thats how every sport i watch works
in that case you can't score 3 goals in overtime, but apparently in soccer its just a block of extra time, which makes 3 goals possible
On January 24 2008 10:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: okay like i said i had it in my head that overtime = next goal wins, because thats how every sport i watch works
in that case you can't score 3 goals in overtime, but apparently in soccer its just a block of extra time, which makes 3 goals possible
On January 24 2008 10:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: okay like i said i had it in my head that overtime = next goal wins, because thats how every sport i watch works
in that case you can't score 3 goals in overtime, but apparently in soccer its just a block of extra time, which makes 3 goals possible
On January 24 2008 10:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: okay like i said i had it in my head that overtime = next goal wins, because thats how every sport i watch works
in that case you can't score 3 goals in overtime, but apparently in soccer its just a block of extra time, which makes 3 goals possible
On January 24 2008 10:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: okay like i said i had it in my head that overtime = next goal wins, because thats how every sport i watch works
in that case you can't score 3 goals in overtime, but apparently in soccer its just a block of extra time, which makes 3 goals possible
On January 24 2008 09:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: The ONE FUCKING TIME I FUCKING VOTE FOR BISU IN MY ENTIRE LIQUIBET CAREER HE LOSES WHAT THE FUCK 3/4 THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
On January 24 2008 09:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: The ONE FUCKING TIME I FUCKING VOTE FOR BISU IN MY ENTIRE LIQUIBET CAREER HE LOSES WHAT THE FUCK 3/4 THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
Why would you bet on Bisu against July?
You really can't think of a reason why? Why do you want to know the reasoning on an incorrect bet anyway? What are you saying?????????????????????????????????
On January 24 2008 09:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: The ONE FUCKING TIME I FUCKING VOTE FOR BISU IN MY ENTIRE LIQUIBET CAREER HE LOSES WHAT THE FUCK 3/4 THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
Why would you bet on Bisu against July?
PvZ: 32-15 (68.09%) with multiple wins against upper tier zergs such as sAviOr.
On January 24 2008 09:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: The ONE FUCKING TIME I FUCKING VOTE FOR BISU IN MY ENTIRE LIQUIBET CAREER HE LOSES WHAT THE FUCK 3/4 THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
Why would you bet on Bisu against July?
PvZ: 32-15 (68.09%) with multiple wins against upper tier zergs such as sAviOr.
Hmmm, I can't imagine. Must have been a misclick.
i cant imagine either seeeing how july is not in one of those wins however is in one of those losses now for bisu oh wait sorry 2 losses now, julys aggressive play is the counter to the beesuit build zergs sitn back waitn for mass econ are the ones who get owned like savior, for some reason next to that one game on blue storm he cant adapt everyone else has 3 z losses in row proves that
On January 24 2008 09:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: The ONE FUCKING TIME I FUCKING VOTE FOR BISU IN MY ENTIRE LIQUIBET CAREER HE LOSES WHAT THE FUCK 3/4 THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
Why would you bet on Bisu against July?
PvZ: 32-15 (68.09%) with multiple wins against upper tier zergs such as sAviOr.
Hmmm, I can't imagine. Must have been a misclick.
i cant imagine either seeeing how july is not in one of those wins however is in one of those losses now for bisu oh wait sorry 2 losses now, julys aggressive play is the counter to the beesuit build zergs sitn back waitn for mass econ are the ones who get owned like savior, for some reason next to that one game on blue storm he cant adapt everyone else has 3 z losses in row proves that
On January 24 2008 09:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: The ONE FUCKING TIME I FUCKING VOTE FOR BISU IN MY ENTIRE LIQUIBET CAREER HE LOSES WHAT THE FUCK 3/4 THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
Why would you bet on Bisu against July?
PvZ: 32-15 (68.09%) with multiple wins against upper tier zergs such as sAviOr.
Hmmm, I can't imagine. Must have been a misclick.
i cant imagine either seeeing how july is not in one of those wins however is in one of those losses now for bisu oh wait sorry 2 losses now, julys aggressive play is the counter to the beesuit build zergs sitn back waitn for mass econ are the ones who get owned like savior, for some reason next to that one game on blue storm he cant adapt everyone else has 3 z losses in row proves that
In the words of Hot_Bid;
There's no fucking counter to Bisu, you just have to play better than him.
Maybe July played better than him this game, maybe Bisu has a fucking cold/headache/gingivitis/AIDS/whatever. The point is, you can't just counter him with a playstyle, you have to out macro him, out micro him, and out multitask. Yes, Beesuit is weak early game, but he's survived many attempted early game aggressive attacks, proving that it's not the style that wins games.
I hate fanboys, I only tolerate the sAviOr variety.
On January 24 2008 09:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: The ONE FUCKING TIME I FUCKING VOTE FOR BISU IN MY ENTIRE LIQUIBET CAREER HE LOSES WHAT THE FUCK 3/4 THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
Why would you bet on Bisu against July?
PvZ: 32-15 (68.09%) with multiple wins against upper tier zergs such as sAviOr.
Hmmm, I can't imagine. Must have been a misclick.
i cant imagine either seeeing how july is not in one of those wins however is in one of those losses now for bisu oh wait sorry 2 losses now, julys aggressive play is the counter to the beesuit build zergs sitn back waitn for mass econ are the ones who get owned like savior, for some reason next to that one game on blue storm he cant adapt everyone else has 3 z losses in row proves that
In the words of Hot_Bid;
There's no fucking counter to Bisu, you just have to play better than him.
Maybe July played better than him this game, maybe Bisu has a fucking cold/headache/gingivitis/AIDS/whatever. The point is, you can't just counter him with a playstyle, you have to out macro him, out micro him, and out multitask. Yes, Beesuit is weak early game, but he's survived many attempted early game aggressive attacks, proving that it's not the style that wins games.
I hate fanboys, I only tolerate the sAviOr variety.
there is a counter to every build, there is absolutely no reason that an early game hydra timing push cant be a bisu counter. you talk of fanboyism but blindly believing bisu's build is uncounterable is just foolish and hypocritical
On January 24 2008 09:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: The ONE FUCKING TIME I FUCKING VOTE FOR BISU IN MY ENTIRE LIQUIBET CAREER HE LOSES WHAT THE FUCK 3/4 THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
Why would you bet on Bisu against July?
PvZ: 32-15 (68.09%) with multiple wins against upper tier zergs such as sAviOr.
Hmmm, I can't imagine. Must have been a misclick.
i cant imagine either seeeing how july is not in one of those wins however is in one of those losses now for bisu oh wait sorry 2 losses now, julys aggressive play is the counter to the beesuit build zergs sitn back waitn for mass econ are the ones who get owned like savior, for some reason next to that one game on blue storm he cant adapt everyone else has 3 z losses in row proves that
In the words of Hot_Bid;
There's no fucking counter to Bisu, you just have to play better than him.
Maybe July played better than him this game, maybe Bisu has a fucking cold/headache/gingivitis/AIDS/whatever. The point is, you can't just counter him with a playstyle, you have to out macro him, out micro him, and out multitask. Yes, Beesuit is weak early game, but he's survived many attempted early game aggressive attacks, proving that it's not the style that wins games.
I hate fanboys, I only tolerate the sAviOr variety.
there is a counter to every build, there is absolutely no reason that an early game hydra timing push cant be a bisu counter. you talk of fanboyism but blindly believing bisu's build is uncounterable is just foolish and hypocritical
an early hydra build can be stopped and has been stopped by bisu many many times
yes it is possible for bisu to lose to 3hatch or 4hatch hydra but it is by no means a hard counter for his build
You don't have to outmicro/macro or outplay Bisu to steal wins with hydra breaks or ling all-ins. That's a vulnerability built into fast expo that no protoss can overcome without measures (more and earlier cannons, later tech) that put them at a big disadvantage to eco heavy builds.
On January 24 2008 09:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: The ONE FUCKING TIME I FUCKING VOTE FOR BISU IN MY ENTIRE LIQUIBET CAREER HE LOSES WHAT THE FUCK 3/4 THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
Why would you bet on Bisu against July?
PvZ: 32-15 (68.09%) with multiple wins against upper tier zergs such as sAviOr.
Hmmm, I can't imagine. Must have been a misclick.
i cant imagine either seeeing how july is not in one of those wins however is in one of those losses now for bisu oh wait sorry 2 losses now, julys aggressive play is the counter to the beesuit build zergs sitn back waitn for mass econ are the ones who get owned like savior, for some reason next to that one game on blue storm he cant adapt everyone else has 3 z losses in row proves that
In the words of Hot_Bid;
There's no fucking counter to Bisu, you just have to play better than him.
Maybe July played better than him this game, maybe Bisu has a fucking cold/headache/gingivitis/AIDS/whatever. The point is, you can't just counter him with a playstyle, you have to out macro him, out micro him, and out multitask. Yes, Beesuit is weak early game, but he's survived many attempted early game aggressive attacks, proving that it's not the style that wins games.
I hate fanboys, I only tolerate the sAviOr variety.
there is a counter to every build, there is absolutely no reason that an early game hydra timing push cant be a bisu counter. you talk of fanboyism but blindly believing bisu's build is uncounterable is just foolish and hypocritical
an early hydra build can be stopped and has been stopped by bisu many many times
yes it is possible for bisu to lose to 3hatch or 4hatch hydra but it is by no means a hard counter for his build
yeah i know i was just using it as an example of a possible bisu build counter
On January 24 2008 09:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: The ONE FUCKING TIME I FUCKING VOTE FOR BISU IN MY ENTIRE LIQUIBET CAREER HE LOSES WHAT THE FUCK 3/4 THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
Why would you bet on Bisu against July?
PvZ: 32-15 (68.09%) with multiple wins against upper tier zergs such as sAviOr.
Hmmm, I can't imagine. Must have been a misclick.
i cant imagine either seeeing how july is not in one of those wins however is in one of those losses now for bisu oh wait sorry 2 losses now, julys aggressive play is the counter to the beesuit build zergs sitn back waitn for mass econ are the ones who get owned like savior, for some reason next to that one game on blue storm he cant adapt everyone else has 3 z losses in row proves that
In the words of Hot_Bid;
There's no fucking counter to Bisu, you just have to play better than him.
Maybe July played better than him this game, maybe Bisu has a fucking cold/headache/gingivitis/AIDS/whatever. The point is, you can't just counter him with a playstyle, you have to out macro him, out micro him, and out multitask. Yes, Beesuit is weak early game, but he's survived many attempted early game aggressive attacks, proving that it's not the style that wins games.
I hate fanboys, I only tolerate the sAviOr variety.
there is a counter to every build, there is absolutely no reason that an early game hydra timing push cant be a bisu counter. you talk of fanboyism but blindly believing bisu's build is uncounterable is just foolish and hypocritical
an early hydra build can be stopped and has been stopped by bisu many many times
yes it is possible for bisu to lose to 3hatch or 4hatch hydra but it is by no means a hard counter for his build
yeah i know i was just using it as an example of a possible bisu build counter
I'm not talking about a counter to his build, and I'm sorry if it came off as such. I'm talking about countering Kim Taek Yong, and it's not as easy as "an aggressiv style pwnzorzzz him".
I think Hot Bid put it best. Bisu plays his games with an eye to dominating on his skill. The occasional Hydra break or loss of critical units (ie, the reavers + shuttle vs yellow[arnc]) or all in hydra plays (ie, Julyzerg yesterday) may win a few games, but it's rare he loses straight up.
That said, given only Jaedong has wins over him in straight up play and the fact he's been nailed with all in hydra builds on Blue Storm, Bisu should be expecting all in builds on this map a fair bit.
On January 24 2008 14:38 HaXxorIzed wrote: I think Hot Bid put it best. Bisu plays his games with an eye to dominating on his skill. The occasional Hydra break or loss of critical units (ie, the reavers + shuttle vs yellow[arnc]) or all in hydra plays (ie, Julyzerg yesterday) may win a few games, but it's rare he loses straight up.
That said, given only Jaedong has wins over him in straight up play and the fact he's been nailed with all in hydra builds on Blue Storm, Bisu should be expecting all in builds on this map a fair bit.
The sAviOr fan that is ShaLLoW would like to remind you of that game on Hitchhiker at Blizzcon/WWI which sAviOr won :p
On January 24 2008 14:38 HaXxorIzed wrote: I think Hot Bid put it best. Bisu plays his games with an eye to dominating on his skill. The occasional Hydra break or loss of critical units (ie, the reavers + shuttle vs yellow[arnc]) or all in hydra plays (ie, Julyzerg yesterday) may win a few games, but it's rare he loses straight up.
That said, given only Jaedong has wins over him in straight up play and the fact he's been nailed with all in hydra builds on Blue Storm, Bisu should be expecting all in builds on this map a fair bit.
The sAviOr fan that is ShaLLoW would like to remind you of that game on Hitchhiker at Blizzcon/WWI which sAviOr won :p
On January 24 2008 09:12 JIJI wrote: Just wondering, how popular is Jaedong in Korea? I mean everytime I see him win, he hardly gets any cheers or none at all. And even before a game starts the "Insert name fighting" thing, his is almost always softer than his opponents. So what's up with his popularity? Is he hated for dominating too much? If that's the case, Savior who dominated for a long time sure got more cheers in one game than all of Jaedong's games combined =o
people love him. And the insert name thing sometimes one side sounds louder than the other for no reason. When i watched mind vs bisu live mind's cheer was really loud but on the vods it didnt seem that loud. And jaedong has one title so far hes gaining popularity. People didnt go crazy for savior until like his 2nd msl title vs ra. But they do love him. My friend who doesnt even care for progaming loves him.
On January 24 2008 09:15 Last Romantic wrote: OK, so we'll never really know what the ref talked to the players about. But considering the conversations were longer than 10 seconds, I'd assume Bisu was contesting for a regame and that July was contesting for a win. What else would they be talking and gesticulating about for so long?
Honestly, it's a stretch to reach any kind of conclusion from that. The KeSPA ref could just be asking him what happened exactly from his side and to explain the details concerning the disconnect. You know, just to make sure there's no foul play involved or anything. I'm sure July was actively contesting for his deserved win and looked quite pissed while doing so, but I highly doubt Bisu was actually trying for a regame. He knew it was over, disconnect or not.
theres no perfect counter to the beesuit but the general trend is that the zergs have adapted, their all-in push timing have significantly improved, their defense against sairs have gotten better, and more zergs are getting ov speed earlier etc...
the bottom line is, the success rate against the beesuit have improved regardless of the strategy zerg players choose.
its time for the tosses to adapt and innovate again, and so goes the circle of starcraft life.
On January 24 2008 16:10 talismania wrote: What is weird about the whole thing is that July seemed so angry afterwards, storming off backstage. If someone knows someone with post-match interviews... it would be interesting to see why he was upset with what happened.
when they first spoke to the players individually, it was before they analyzed the replay. The KeSPA ref told both of them that "When we watch the replay, if we see a Darktemplar produced, the match will be replayed, if there is no DT produced, the win will be awarded to zerg". July felt that he had the game won even if there were any DTs, so he was pissed that he might have gotten his win stripped because of a DT that Bisu may have produced before the gateway died or from a hidden gateway somewhere. That's why he seemed pissed.
In Savior's win vs Bisu on this map, July's win and a few other wins I've seen against Bisu with rushes I've noticed a 1 common trend: they don't let him scout. In almost all the games the zerg opens with pool before hatch followed by gas for early speed. They then just get 6 lings and hunt down the probe, then go straight to hydra or w/e rush build they're using. Because the 6 lings get early speed upgraded, when Bisu sends out a second probe to see the zerg's tech, it gets hunted down before it gets even halfway down the map.
If you look at Bisu's 3-0 win vs Savior awhile back, (and his Superfight win) he had been successful in scouting Savior with his probe in all of them. He was either able let his probe survive for an extremely long time or find another way to scout so that he's always aware of the zerg's actions.
But by restricting his ability to see your movements, you're forcing him to prepare for everyone. He's curious to see your tech, so he tries to get stargate as soon as possible, but gets run over by hydras by the time the first corsair pops. But if he decides to play safe, and the zerg may have opened with a completely different build, that puts him way behind.
On January 24 2008 09:01 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: The ONE FUCKING TIME I FUCKING VOTE FOR BISU IN MY ENTIRE LIQUIBET CAREER HE LOSES WHAT THE FUCK 3/4 THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
Why would you bet on Bisu against July?
PvZ: 32-15 (68.09%) with multiple wins against upper tier zergs such as sAviOr.
Hmmm, I can't imagine. Must have been a misclick.
You should have faith in July who is the God of War and the true zerg messiah.
On January 24 2008 09:01 yubee wrote: champions get paid, and champions get remembered. you can be the most honorable starcraft player there is but you don't have shit on someone with a golden mouse.
you say that what happens during the game is the most important and results shouldn't matter. that's completely opposite of how it actually works. the more money is on the line, the less sportsmanship becomes a major factor. why do you think some of the most successful players in basketball are the ones who fall down at the slightest touch
Yet again, this focuses on the needs of the particular player, not about what's actually the best thing to do in the situation. I already explained why this situation isn't about the needs of a particular player.
And no, I think you misunderstood my comment about the "process" of any game/sport. I don't mean that no one goes out there with winning as the only ultimate goal. That's the personal perspective. However, when you look at the whole competition, the whole point is the process, ie. when people play. A game wouldn't be the same if you skipped playing and just got results. The entire reason why people like game is because of the process of playing, not because of the results. Playing is the whole point of it.
Your comment about successful players in basketbal doesn't really say anything. Yet, some of the best players do, some don't. The thing is that basketball is extremely strict and technical about physical contact, so producing fouls becomes a skill. In soccer, however, only players of a particular mindset dive, while others prefer not to. Unfortunately, it's a spreading phenomenon, but nonetheless it ultimately comes down to character as taking a dive in football really has nothing to do with the game and isn't an accepted "method".
On January 24 2008 09:20 Hot_Bid wrote: let's present a hypothetical situation, for example yellow is broke and in debt, and it's the ODT qualifiers and if he wins this next game he gets a new guaranteed contract with KTF, if not he doesn't. sportsmanship and conceding a disc game go right out the window there. in fact, even his fans would want him to take the regame.
"honor" is all relative, and it just depends on the importance of the moment. it's easy to concede meaningless games on bnet, hard to do so when the stakes are high. to suggest that one player (let's say yellow) would be honorable all the time from one example when the stakes aren't high, and when there are counter examples (L2W's, for one) doesn't prove anything.
You are simply re-iterating your previous point, which changes nothing to what I said. You simply describe a situation where a player - in this case, Yellow - would react on instinct/need instead of basing a decision on what's best. Of course some of his fans would want him to take a regame - they are biased. Some times you want someone to get a result so badly that it doesn't matter how they get it. For instance, I'm a big fan of the soccer club Juventus and at the same time I demand beautiful high-level soccer. However, sometimes when I watch Juventus play, I cannot enjoy the game because I'm so focused on them doing well. Af if they had to advance to the finals by scoring a goal, I would want that to happen however that might come to be.
No, honour isn't relative, you decision making is. Obviously, different factors play in, just as we both said ... That doesn't change the fact that the best decision would be to concede the game, while the instinctive situation would be to take a regame.
Man, I feel like I'm getting ineloqent and starting to repeat myself a lot .. and get off topic ... but hell, this needs to be cleared up as a very important element of this round.
Hmm, i'm a bit late on the topic, but i have to say i agree with Asjo and i strongly disagree with Hot_Bid there. In tennis, before Hawk-Eye, i remember some players would admit that the ball was in even when the ref called it out. Corretja was especially known for his fair-play, that didn't mean he didn't wanted to win and clearly, there's big money on the line when you're playing a grand slam final.. I remember a Sampras Becker final in Paris (not the French Open of course): Becker served an ace. Ref called it out. Sampras saw it was in and conceded the point. It doesn't matter what's at stake, it's a matter of personal behavior.
On January 23 2008 20:57 Hot_Bid wrote: this is mostly because it's not a mainstream sport, if millions of dollars were on the line, your "honor" goes right out the window
sure it's easy to concede when the culture and community is still small and close knit and your entire life isn't banking on one game
osl finals, yellow's last chance at an OSL title, 5th game final set this happens, you think he'd not take the option at a regame? what if the prize money was a whole year's salary?
The logic of your posts about this seems quite flawed. If there is money is a bank, do you rob it? No, because it's not the right thing to do. There is possibility, yes, but just like you do living your whole life, you must make decisions according to your code of ethics.
So, if you replay a game you've lost just to get the result you want, you pretty much disregard the whole point of the game. The game - or any sport, in fact - is about the process than happens during play.If all you care for is getting the right result, you might just as well not play against anyone, since obviously you would prefer free wins. You could compare what you're saying to cheating: it's important for you to win the game, so you do what you can to get there (as long as you can get away with it, of course). Still, I don't think your shewed perspective of this matter will mean that you would want to cheat. Obviously, if there is a lot of pressure on people, they can become very selfish, and this is what you emphasize. What you need to realize is only that this is the bad thing to do, a reaction by instinct, and the bigger then man, the better you can set yourself apart from this.
I'm aware that you mention that the rules might dictate a re-game, but no one will force you to regame if you don't want to. It all comes down to your decision, which should be based on what is wrong and right, not what your needs are (money, recognition, etc.). Keep in mind, you're screwing the other person over by taking the regame, not just mocking the competitive scene of Starcraft in general and the game you just played.
Do remember, Hot_Bids a lawyer;) Codes of Ethics are highly flexible in the law field. And as a son with 2 parents who graduated from law school, I can speak with some personal expierence
And no this is not an "oh haha lawyers are assholes" comment. A lot of lawyers are and a lot are really nice. It's just working as a lawyer requires you to think in a different way. Its NECESSARY for being good at law.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/Bacchus_OSL.jpg)
Jaedong < Katrina > 
Sea
Rock < Demon's Forest > 
Could we arrange it?
.
