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On October 03 2025 05:51 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2025 03:58 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 03:36 Magic Powers wrote:What I'm arguing here is that wide chokes are the very problem of modern day zvp. They keep giving help to protoss while giving zerg nothing in return. Bruh, wide chokes would completely destroy protoss. They rely on narrow choke points to defend their bases against the mass onslaught of hydras and zerglings and whatnot. Wide choke = good for zerg. Ok I really don't know what to say to this. What's your mmr? Have you actually played zvp? Are you trying to refute soma and stork's argument here? Idk why you're even trying to argue about wide chokes. This was the most backseater comment I've seen. This tells me you know nothing about modern day zvp. Zerglings and hydras?? Are we in 2007 era? lol This is simply not in dispute. The wider the choke, the more space hydras have to shoot and move around, the more space zerglings have to sneak through gaps and attack from every angle. I'm sorry but that's not something anyone can deny. Protoss doesn't have an answer to that, which is precisely why every natural base ever in the last several decades has been made the perfect size for gateway+forge.
wait we aren't talking about natural chokes... we're talking about here.... where z needs to defend vs 12 min pvz push
![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/a/bQFEnt7)
I was actually in favor of the narrow chokes for natural... again, showing your ignorance
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On October 03 2025 05:44 TMNT wrote:
Yes, there's not a single rule as to wide/narrow chokes benefit which race more. It depends on the specific situations.
In PvZ, narrow chokes are better for the defensive side, whether it's P or Z, because noone wants to shove their army through a choke to eat storms or lurker/sunken spines. I reckon the reason Shinokuki is so vocal about wide chokes is because of the power spike of the 2-base Protoss around 130-150 supplies at 10-15 minutes, before Defiler is out, which corresponds exactly to the period of the game that gives P the most wins. Basically, he wants the FS/CB/Eclipse type chokes with the bridges and the invincible 3rd base, so Zerg can have an easier time surviving this period.
What I wonder is, even with that power spike, the PvZ win rate is still around 47%, so if you nerfs it, what would P become? You're asking to have all the Zerg shenanigans in the early to mid game that can kill a vulnerable Protoss immediately, plus an easier time during the Protoss power spike, and the powerful late game with dark swarm, plague, cracklings and the insane economic power. Poor Protoss is only allowed to have fuck all. Maybe what Rogue said is correct: if Protoss wins 10% of games, that's 10% too high.
Except... it will eventually lead to a favorable win rate over time for pvz the longer it is played just like how we are seeing..
Protoss is guaranteed ultimate early game set up while leaving zerg with none nowadays. You can't expect normal/non top tier zergs to perform how soma/soulkey/hero/queen are playing. Where are you getting this 47%? Again, we need to dissect more into this win rate. is this including eclipse? FS? Polypoid? CB?
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On October 03 2025 06:39 Uldridge wrote:
So the terran wall in and zerg sim cities are just a happenstance byproduct for this tremendous service the mapmakers did for protoss in PvZ?
Balance has to be achieved in all match-ups, I was only talking about PvZ because that was the point of contention. Wide entrance = bad for protoss.
The fact that a wide entrance can also cause an imbalance in other matchups doesn't change that fact, it only further supports the concept of narrower choke points. PvZ is a very illustrative example because it's so heavily impacted by it. The matchup would literally break without narrow choke points. Zerg would practically always win.
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On October 03 2025 06:46 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2025 06:39 Uldridge wrote:
So the terran wall in and zerg sim cities are just a happenstance byproduct for this tremendous service the mapmakers did for protoss in PvZ? Balance has to be achieved in all match-ups, I was only talking about PvZ because that was the point of contention. Wide entrance = bad for protoss. The fact that a wide entrance can also cause an imbalance in other matchups doesn't change that fact, it only further supports the concept of narrower choke points. PvZ is a very illustrative example because it's so heavily impacted by it. The matchup would literally break without narrow choke points. Zerg would practically always win.
Again, this is somethign even 1600 mmr nowadays knows. We're not talking about this.
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On October 03 2025 06:41 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2025 05:51 Magic Powers wrote:On October 03 2025 03:58 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 03:36 Magic Powers wrote:What I'm arguing here is that wide chokes are the very problem of modern day zvp. They keep giving help to protoss while giving zerg nothing in return. Bruh, wide chokes would completely destroy protoss. They rely on narrow choke points to defend their bases against the mass onslaught of hydras and zerglings and whatnot. Wide choke = good for zerg. Ok I really don't know what to say to this. What's your mmr? Have you actually played zvp? Are you trying to refute soma and stork's argument here? Idk why you're even trying to argue about wide chokes. This was the most backseater comment I've seen. This tells me you know nothing about modern day zvp. Zerglings and hydras?? Are we in 2007 era? lol This is simply not in dispute. The wider the choke, the more space hydras have to shoot and move around, the more space zerglings have to sneak through gaps and attack from every angle. I'm sorry but that's not something anyone can deny. Protoss doesn't have an answer to that, which is precisely why every natural base ever in the last several decades has been made the perfect size for gateway+forge. wait we aren't talking about natural chokes... we're talking about here.... where z needs to defend vs 12 min pvz push I was actually in favor of the narrow chokes for natural... again, showing your ignorance
Choke points outside of the natural - lets say for the third or fourth base - also have to be narrower to help protoss, not zerg. The fact that zerg players can also benefit from narrow choke points doesn't mean it's designed specifically to help them win more games against protoss. Narrow choke points are clearly better for protoss than for zerg in PvZ. This is because protoss has fewer units and thus benefits from narrow spaces to not get surrounded all the time. This is true for both the protoss army and for protoss expansions.
Zerg doesn't benefit more from sim city than protoss does. Never has, never will.
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On October 03 2025 06:52 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2025 06:41 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 05:51 Magic Powers wrote:On October 03 2025 03:58 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 03:36 Magic Powers wrote:What I'm arguing here is that wide chokes are the very problem of modern day zvp. They keep giving help to protoss while giving zerg nothing in return. Bruh, wide chokes would completely destroy protoss. They rely on narrow choke points to defend their bases against the mass onslaught of hydras and zerglings and whatnot. Wide choke = good for zerg. Ok I really don't know what to say to this. What's your mmr? Have you actually played zvp? Are you trying to refute soma and stork's argument here? Idk why you're even trying to argue about wide chokes. This was the most backseater comment I've seen. This tells me you know nothing about modern day zvp. Zerglings and hydras?? Are we in 2007 era? lol This is simply not in dispute. The wider the choke, the more space hydras have to shoot and move around, the more space zerglings have to sneak through gaps and attack from every angle. I'm sorry but that's not something anyone can deny. Protoss doesn't have an answer to that, which is precisely why every natural base ever in the last several decades has been made the perfect size for gateway+forge. wait we aren't talking about natural chokes... we're talking about here.... where z needs to defend vs 12 min pvz push I was actually in favor of the narrow chokes for natural... again, showing your ignorance Choke points outside of the natural - lets say for the third or fourth base - also have to be narrower to help protoss, not zerg. The fact that zerg players can also benefit from narrow choke points doesn't mean it's designed specifically to help them win more games against protoss. Narrow choke points are clearly better for protoss than for zerg in PvZ. This is because protoss has fewer units and thus benefits from narrow spaces to not get surrounded all the time. This is true for both the protoss army and for protoss expansions. Zerg doesn't benefit more from sim city than protoss does. Never has, never will.
Do you understand the current zvp meta? or are you just saying things you don't know? Anyway done arguing here. Why should i argue with 1300 mmr player
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On October 03 2025 06:53 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2025 06:52 Magic Powers wrote:On October 03 2025 06:41 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 05:51 Magic Powers wrote:On October 03 2025 03:58 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 03:36 Magic Powers wrote:What I'm arguing here is that wide chokes are the very problem of modern day zvp. They keep giving help to protoss while giving zerg nothing in return. Bruh, wide chokes would completely destroy protoss. They rely on narrow choke points to defend their bases against the mass onslaught of hydras and zerglings and whatnot. Wide choke = good for zerg. Ok I really don't know what to say to this. What's your mmr? Have you actually played zvp? Are you trying to refute soma and stork's argument here? Idk why you're even trying to argue about wide chokes. This was the most backseater comment I've seen. This tells me you know nothing about modern day zvp. Zerglings and hydras?? Are we in 2007 era? lol This is simply not in dispute. The wider the choke, the more space hydras have to shoot and move around, the more space zerglings have to sneak through gaps and attack from every angle. I'm sorry but that's not something anyone can deny. Protoss doesn't have an answer to that, which is precisely why every natural base ever in the last several decades has been made the perfect size for gateway+forge. wait we aren't talking about natural chokes... we're talking about here.... where z needs to defend vs 12 min pvz push I was actually in favor of the narrow chokes for natural... again, showing your ignorance Choke points outside of the natural - lets say for the third or fourth base - also have to be narrower to help protoss, not zerg. The fact that zerg players can also benefit from narrow choke points doesn't mean it's designed specifically to help them win more games against protoss. Narrow choke points are clearly better for protoss than for zerg in PvZ. This is because protoss has fewer units and thus benefits from narrow spaces to not get surrounded all the time. This is true for both the protoss army and for protoss expansions. Zerg doesn't benefit more from sim city than protoss does. Never has, never will. Do you understand the current zvp meta? or are you just saying things you don't know? Anyway done arguing here. Why should i argue with 1300 mmr player
From the start you've been attacking me as a player. If this is how you want to debate things with people, I'll stop responding to you and start reporting all of your inflammatory comments.
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On October 03 2025 06:55 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2025 06:53 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 06:52 Magic Powers wrote:On October 03 2025 06:41 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 05:51 Magic Powers wrote:On October 03 2025 03:58 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 03:36 Magic Powers wrote:What I'm arguing here is that wide chokes are the very problem of modern day zvp. They keep giving help to protoss while giving zerg nothing in return. Bruh, wide chokes would completely destroy protoss. They rely on narrow choke points to defend their bases against the mass onslaught of hydras and zerglings and whatnot. Wide choke = good for zerg. Ok I really don't know what to say to this. What's your mmr? Have you actually played zvp? Are you trying to refute soma and stork's argument here? Idk why you're even trying to argue about wide chokes. This was the most backseater comment I've seen. This tells me you know nothing about modern day zvp. Zerglings and hydras?? Are we in 2007 era? lol This is simply not in dispute. The wider the choke, the more space hydras have to shoot and move around, the more space zerglings have to sneak through gaps and attack from every angle. I'm sorry but that's not something anyone can deny. Protoss doesn't have an answer to that, which is precisely why every natural base ever in the last several decades has been made the perfect size for gateway+forge. wait we aren't talking about natural chokes... we're talking about here.... where z needs to defend vs 12 min pvz push I was actually in favor of the narrow chokes for natural... again, showing your ignorance Choke points outside of the natural - lets say for the third or fourth base - also have to be narrower to help protoss, not zerg. The fact that zerg players can also benefit from narrow choke points doesn't mean it's designed specifically to help them win more games against protoss. Narrow choke points are clearly better for protoss than for zerg in PvZ. This is because protoss has fewer units and thus benefits from narrow spaces to not get surrounded all the time. This is true for both the protoss army and for protoss expansions. Zerg doesn't benefit more from sim city than protoss does. Never has, never will. Do you understand the current zvp meta? or are you just saying things you don't know? Anyway done arguing here. Why should i argue with 1300 mmr player From the start you've been attacking me as a player. If this is how you want to debate things with people, I'll stop responding to you and start reporting all of your inflammatory comments.
Fine by me!
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On October 02 2025 23:38 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2025 17:39 TMNT wrote:On October 02 2025 11:48 Shinokuki wrote:On October 02 2025 08:30 TMNT wrote:On October 02 2025 02:14 Shinokuki wrote:
You should check it out. It's right on snow's youtube yesterday. It's the perfect series to dissect what's wrong with standard macro game without any trickeries in zvp. Soma seems like he went macro game to prepare for bisu
After watching said game (Snow vs Soma on Pole Star, game 9 of the series), I think it's fair to say you have a heavy bias that you can only see what you want to see. That game is a macro game yes, but it's far from a standard one. Evidence one: Snow never built a Stargate for the entire game. He opened Nexus after 1 Zealot (17 Nexus) and the probe only went out to scout after that. Then he tech'd all the way up to Citadel before dropping the first Cannon. Later, somehow Snow's probe just walked right pass 6 Lings in front of Soma's natural, seeing a Lair morphing and a finished Hydra Den. It was 4:40 in the game that he saw this, which means if Soma went for a Muta switch bullshit, Snow had to start 3 Cannons in his main at the latest around 7:10 (might even be sooner than that, depending on the progress of the Lair). He started ONLY 1 Cannon in his main at 7:20. Probably Snow identified Soma wouldn't go for a Muta switch and played like that. And combined with his opening, he was able to sit on 9 Gates, with 4 HTs and storm research already done, plus 1 DA morphing in, at 8:00. He cut corners left and right and took so many risks to get to that state, also partly because he was up 6-2 at that point already and given the way Soma only played macro in this series (like you said). Needless to say, such opening allowed Snow to outfight, outmanoeuvre Soma's army for the rest of the game. If Protoss is allowed to skip Stargate tech in PvZ and that being considered standard, we'll never say a word about the matchup again lol. You can even say Snow treated that game like a risk-free one on ladder and Soma treated it like a practice session for his Defiler tech macro game (because the series already had a winner at that point and they are likely facing each other in finals) I like how you never mention snow lost 2 dts practically for free and THEN still made DA which is a huge sunk in gas and resources. Soma had equal PSI vs snow and got obliterated. You talk as if snow had some sort of 180 psi vs 120 psi advantage. Soma had around equal ground power and still got rolled over and then snowballed into snow's insane eco advantage. You're missing the point here. The macro game on POLESTAR/etc is very hard for zerg when z needs to set up their 4 base with 65 drones and p can pressure and z cant drone up as usual. I checked polestar stats and it stands at 50.6% win rate for zvp while at 39% win rate for zvt. Looks like zvp win rate is going down as protoss is figuring out trickeries and how to deal with all ins. It used to be at 52%. Goddamn this kinda map is horrible for zergs The two DTs means almost nothing in the grand scheme of things thanks to the advantages he got from the corners he cut and the risks he took. In fact I like how that's the only thing you mentioned while the rest of Snow's build doesn't matter. On top of skipping the entire air tech tree, the early Nexus and early Citadel not only allowed Snow to afford 4 DTs + 4 HTs + 9 Gates, it also allowed him to have them much sooner than usual and can contest Zerg before they grow out of control. He achieved that at the risk of dying any time to a Ling rush or Mutas because that game didn't matter to him at 6-2 already. It's not a standard game at all and it's stupid to use it as an example of a macro game. It's also funny that you're complaining about a ~50% win rate. Maybe devote that energy on the 39% ZvT. Imagine how Protoss players feel when their win rates in both matchups are always below 50% on most maps all these years lol. Plus, I didn't see Soma's supplies, but if he was on equal supplies with Snow and lost the battles then maybe he should look at his army control before blaming the map. I mean, well yeah Polestar may be harder than FS or Polypoid but we're talking about going from 53% to 50% ffs. If you complain about a matchup that your race has 50% win rate, might as well ask the referees to hand the win to you already. Losing 2 DTs is nothing? That's kinda crazy and you'd know if you played zvp at high level and idk why you consider this not a standard macro game. It's a perfect game to show why these maps suck "MACRO" wise because if it gets to this point and supplies are similar toss has an upper hand advantage due to widechokes It's also crazy talk how you "assume" that since snow was already 6-2 it didn't matter.. Every win is $100 for snow man. Z has many ways to all in protoss but cannot do a standard macro game and it will seem to be that way, moving forward and that's what we're arguing. Why should we be cheesing when we just want to braindead macro like protoss/terran? It's hard for non pros to execute a certain micro/strats 20 different ways. It gets tiring. You're missing my point man. I'm not complaining about zvt. I'm complaining about the macro set up for zvp on these modern maps like polestar. That's my entire argument. Soma himself said it too! It's crazy how you refute this. Soma said in proleague today "This map sucks for defense against Goon/ht timing" and even stork agreed to it lol. Stork also said "Honestly if both z and p macro up without making lings or p going to fast tech, its good for P." Watch the game queen vs snow on polestar and soma/stork commentate on it lol
Re the Snow vs Soma game 9 on Polestar. It's a macro game but not standard. Snow didn't build a Stargate all game. You're out of your mind if you call a game like that standard? Is no Stargate PvZ the current meta? It's far from the "perfect" example you claim it to be.
As for 100$. Every win is 100$ for Soma too, so why would he deliberately try to play macro instead of being his best usual self (your words not mine) to guarantee the max profit? If we're talking about money as motivation, it makes far more sense for Snow who was already up 6-2 to try his luck with a greedy build and earn the last 100$ lol, than Soma who was deliberately not playing at his best the whole series.
Now back to what you claim to be your main point:
I'm complaining about the macro set up for zvp on these modern maps like polestar. That's my entire argument.
I don't disagree with you that wide chokes make it harder for Zerg to defend the Protoss deathball at that timing (whether it affects the matchup too much and how many maps have that problem is another story). What I disagree is the way you describe the matchup, making it sound like a cakewalk for Protoss lol.
- "just macro up, Protoss is usually ahead"
- "just sending some zealots out is already a Protoss win"
- "just 1a2a3a and P can get good trade"
And you presented your proofs by showing these games (Bisu vs Larva, Snow vs Soma) that you called "perfect examples of macro games", in which Protoss either got ahead through insane BO advantage or playing better in the early-mid game.
I repeat, there's no world where both races just do standard macro and no one makes any mistakes and Protoss can roll Zerg like you described. In fact, the standard macro game that you keep talking about is the Snow vs Queen game you just mentioned here.
In this game, at 8:00 he had a 6 Sairs, 4 Zealots, 3 Gates and the Archive just finished, instead of freaking 9 Gates and 4 HTs with storm already done. See the difference between a standard game and a freak game there? And by the way, thanks to the risks Snow took here (building a Stargate even before Cannon), he killed 4 (FOUR) fucking Overlords before the Scourges could even start chasing the Corsairs, and he didn't lose any of the Sairs lol. You'd think with that + what you described about the matchup, Snow would comfortably slap Queen over. But no, Queen stayed within 20 supplies of Snow the whole game and the easy 1a2a3a into wide chokes that you claimed just never came. Now what followed that was a lot of interactions and Snow probably did something wrong afterwards that he lost the game. But you see? Comfortably macroing up and killing 4 Overlords for free didn't lead to such situations you described.
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On October 03 2025 06:45 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2025 05:44 TMNT wrote:
Yes, there's not a single rule as to wide/narrow chokes benefit which race more. It depends on the specific situations.
In PvZ, narrow chokes are better for the defensive side, whether it's P or Z, because noone wants to shove their army through a choke to eat storms or lurker/sunken spines. I reckon the reason Shinokuki is so vocal about wide chokes is because of the power spike of the 2-base Protoss around 130-150 supplies at 10-15 minutes, before Defiler is out, which corresponds exactly to the period of the game that gives P the most wins. Basically, he wants the FS/CB/Eclipse type chokes with the bridges and the invincible 3rd base, so Zerg can have an easier time surviving this period.
What I wonder is, even with that power spike, the PvZ win rate is still around 47%, so if you nerfs it, what would P become? You're asking to have all the Zerg shenanigans in the early to mid game that can kill a vulnerable Protoss immediately, plus an easier time during the Protoss power spike, and the powerful late game with dark swarm, plague, cracklings and the insane economic power. Poor Protoss is only allowed to have fuck all. Maybe what Rogue said is correct: if Protoss wins 10% of games, that's 10% too high. Except... it will eventually lead to a favorable win rate over time for pvz the longer it is played just like how we are seeing.. Protoss is guaranteed ultimate early game set up while leaving zerg with none nowadays. You can't expect normal/non top tier zergs to perform how soma/soulkey/hero/queen are playing. Where are you getting this 47%? Again, we need to dissect more into this win rate. is this including eclipse? FS? Polypoid? CB?
Polypoid: 46.9%
Eclipse: 46.3%
FS: 46.3%
Litmus: 44.9%
Dominator: 45.9%
Vermeer: 47.8%
Retro: 47.8%
Radeon: 48.2%
Deja Vu: 48.3%
Metropolis: 47.3%
Apocalypse: 49.2%
Polestar: 49.1%
Knockout: 52.4%
Basically, what I see here is Zergs had too much of a good time during the FS/Polypoid/Eclipse era, that now they're complaining about Radeon/Polestar/Knockout when things get a bit harder (but still in your favor!!!)
As for this:
Except... it will eventually lead to a favorable win rate over time for pvz the longer it is played just like how we are seeing..
If it's true, then yes. Let it be. The race whose win rates are perpetually under 50% in both matchups for... forever, finally can get a +50% win rate in SOME maps. How unfair is that that they can get such "reward".
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On October 03 2025 07:32 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2025 06:45 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 05:44 TMNT wrote:
Yes, there's not a single rule as to wide/narrow chokes benefit which race more. It depends on the specific situations.
In PvZ, narrow chokes are better for the defensive side, whether it's P or Z, because noone wants to shove their army through a choke to eat storms or lurker/sunken spines. I reckon the reason Shinokuki is so vocal about wide chokes is because of the power spike of the 2-base Protoss around 130-150 supplies at 10-15 minutes, before Defiler is out, which corresponds exactly to the period of the game that gives P the most wins. Basically, he wants the FS/CB/Eclipse type chokes with the bridges and the invincible 3rd base, so Zerg can have an easier time surviving this period.
What I wonder is, even with that power spike, the PvZ win rate is still around 47%, so if you nerfs it, what would P become? You're asking to have all the Zerg shenanigans in the early to mid game that can kill a vulnerable Protoss immediately, plus an easier time during the Protoss power spike, and the powerful late game with dark swarm, plague, cracklings and the insane economic power. Poor Protoss is only allowed to have fuck all. Maybe what Rogue said is correct: if Protoss wins 10% of games, that's 10% too high. Except... it will eventually lead to a favorable win rate over time for pvz the longer it is played just like how we are seeing.. Protoss is guaranteed ultimate early game set up while leaving zerg with none nowadays. You can't expect normal/non top tier zergs to perform how soma/soulkey/hero/queen are playing. Where are you getting this 47%? Again, we need to dissect more into this win rate. is this including eclipse? FS? Polypoid? CB? Polypoid: 46.9%
Eclipse: 46.3%
FS: 46.3%
Litmus: 44.9%
Dominator: 45.9% Vermeer: 47.8% Retro: 47.8% Radeon: 48.2% Deja Vu: 48.3% Metropolis: 47.3% Apocalypse: 49.2%
Polestar: 49.1%Knockout: 52.4%Basically, what I see here is Zergs had too much of a good time during the FS/Polypoid/Eclipse era, that now they're complaining about Radeon/Polestar/Knockout when things get a bit harder (but still in your favor!!!)
Thanks for the info. Godamn its looking bad for zvp over time... This does support the theory that wider chokes = bad for zvp. The sentiment is that zvp is grossly overpowered because of soulkey and I'm afraid the pattern will continue that allows maps like polestar/knockout to be in circulation for time being.. while zvt is still terrible. Oh well
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On October 03 2025 07:36 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2025 07:32 TMNT wrote:On October 03 2025 06:45 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 05:44 TMNT wrote:
Yes, there's not a single rule as to wide/narrow chokes benefit which race more. It depends on the specific situations.
In PvZ, narrow chokes are better for the defensive side, whether it's P or Z, because noone wants to shove their army through a choke to eat storms or lurker/sunken spines. I reckon the reason Shinokuki is so vocal about wide chokes is because of the power spike of the 2-base Protoss around 130-150 supplies at 10-15 minutes, before Defiler is out, which corresponds exactly to the period of the game that gives P the most wins. Basically, he wants the FS/CB/Eclipse type chokes with the bridges and the invincible 3rd base, so Zerg can have an easier time surviving this period.
What I wonder is, even with that power spike, the PvZ win rate is still around 47%, so if you nerfs it, what would P become? You're asking to have all the Zerg shenanigans in the early to mid game that can kill a vulnerable Protoss immediately, plus an easier time during the Protoss power spike, and the powerful late game with dark swarm, plague, cracklings and the insane economic power. Poor Protoss is only allowed to have fuck all. Maybe what Rogue said is correct: if Protoss wins 10% of games, that's 10% too high. Except... it will eventually lead to a favorable win rate over time for pvz the longer it is played just like how we are seeing.. Protoss is guaranteed ultimate early game set up while leaving zerg with none nowadays. You can't expect normal/non top tier zergs to perform how soma/soulkey/hero/queen are playing. Where are you getting this 47%? Again, we need to dissect more into this win rate. is this including eclipse? FS? Polypoid? CB? Polypoid: 46.9%
Eclipse: 46.3%
FS: 46.3%
Litmus: 44.9%
Dominator: 45.9% Vermeer: 47.8% Retro: 47.8% Radeon: 48.2% Deja Vu: 48.3% Metropolis: 47.3% Apocalypse: 49.2%
Polestar: 49.1%Knockout: 52.4%Basically, what I see here is Zergs had too much of a good time during the FS/Polypoid/Eclipse era, that now they're complaining about Radeon/Polestar/Knockout when things get a bit harder (but still in your favor!!!) Thanks for the info. Godamn its looking bad for zvp over time... This does support the theory that wider chokes = bad for zvp. The sentiment is that zvp is grossly overpowered because of soulkey and I'm afraid the pattern will continue that allows maps like polestar/knockout to be in circulation for time being.. while zvt is still terrible. Oh well
The list is not in chronological order though. Litmus and Dominator are new maps bro. But to be honest, I can feel your pain a little bit. Let's direct it towards Terran though. How they can have positive win rates in all matchups for forever is a travesty.
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On October 03 2025 07:38 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2025 07:36 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 07:32 TMNT wrote:On October 03 2025 06:45 Shinokuki wrote:On October 03 2025 05:44 TMNT wrote:
Yes, there's not a single rule as to wide/narrow chokes benefit which race more. It depends on the specific situations.
In PvZ, narrow chokes are better for the defensive side, whether it's P or Z, because noone wants to shove their army through a choke to eat storms or lurker/sunken spines. I reckon the reason Shinokuki is so vocal about wide chokes is because of the power spike of the 2-base Protoss around 130-150 supplies at 10-15 minutes, before Defiler is out, which corresponds exactly to the period of the game that gives P the most wins. Basically, he wants the FS/CB/Eclipse type chokes with the bridges and the invincible 3rd base, so Zerg can have an easier time surviving this period.
What I wonder is, even with that power spike, the PvZ win rate is still around 47%, so if you nerfs it, what would P become? You're asking to have all the Zerg shenanigans in the early to mid game that can kill a vulnerable Protoss immediately, plus an easier time during the Protoss power spike, and the powerful late game with dark swarm, plague, cracklings and the insane economic power. Poor Protoss is only allowed to have fuck all. Maybe what Rogue said is correct: if Protoss wins 10% of games, that's 10% too high. Except... it will eventually lead to a favorable win rate over time for pvz the longer it is played just like how we are seeing.. Protoss is guaranteed ultimate early game set up while leaving zerg with none nowadays. You can't expect normal/non top tier zergs to perform how soma/soulkey/hero/queen are playing. Where are you getting this 47%? Again, we need to dissect more into this win rate. is this including eclipse? FS? Polypoid? CB? Polypoid: 46.9%
Eclipse: 46.3%
FS: 46.3%
Litmus: 44.9%
Dominator: 45.9% Vermeer: 47.8% Retro: 47.8% Radeon: 48.2% Deja Vu: 48.3% Metropolis: 47.3% Apocalypse: 49.2%
Polestar: 49.1%Knockout: 52.4%Basically, what I see here is Zergs had too much of a good time during the FS/Polypoid/Eclipse era, that now they're complaining about Radeon/Polestar/Knockout when things get a bit harder (but still in your favor!!!) Thanks for the info. Godamn its looking bad for zvp over time... This does support the theory that wider chokes = bad for zvp. The sentiment is that zvp is grossly overpowered because of soulkey and I'm afraid the pattern will continue that allows maps like polestar/knockout to be in circulation for time being.. while zvt is still terrible. Oh well The list is not in chronological order though. Litmus and Dominator are new maps bro. But to be honest, I can feel your pain a little bit. Let's direct it towards Terran though. How they can have positive win rates in all matchups for forever is a travesty.
I want to analyze pvt because it seems like snow is the main culprit in thinking pvt is imba but terran has such a positive win rate no one is really batting an eye at it. On the other hand, terran is indeed the hardest race to master and you can see that levels 2500 and below.
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EPT
