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Northern Ireland25342 Posts
On June 10 2025 20:57 mtcn77 wrote:
It is hard discussing Starcraft with newbies. The game is about 0.5 second slice input intervals and what you can "batch" in each period. The game lasts longer, but players who have mastered this, do more. Those who haven't, don't even kill lurkers with marines. Fact of life, speed matters. There is no substitute for speed when the game waits 0.5 seconds and inputs all commands in the buffer that you have entered.
Nobody here has argued that speed doesn’t matter
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It is a fallacy that "more" is "better results". talent + efficiency + directed specific practice = best results. Talent is a huge factor here.
There are hundred's of thousands of gamers who play 10+ hours a day and are not in the top 20% of players in their game. They either dont have the talent, the knowledge, or the specific correct training methods.
Heck I was a semi-pro league of legends coach. I had all the knowledge and the methods, but I lacked the talent my players had. I could direct them and have them improve, but I could not break into their grandmaster/challenger level.
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On June 10 2025 22:18 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
It is a fallacy that "more" is "better results". talent + efficiency + directed specific practice = best results. Talent is a huge factor here.
There are hundred's of thousands of gamers who play 10+ hours a day and are not in the top 20% of players in their game. They either dont have the talent, the knowledge, or the specific correct training methods.
Heck I was a semi-pro league of legends coach. I had all the knowledge and the methods, but I lacked the talent my players had. I could direct them and have them improve, but I could not break into their grandmaster/challenger level.
Good for you. If you had the same talents your players had, you would just compromise their growth.
Regarding the first paragraph, it is not that players who failed don't develop. The fruit of victory is perspective. They get more judicious with the tiebreaker moments of the game. For instance Soulkey split his mutalisks. I cannot recall ever seeing it in a live tournament.
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On June 10 2025 21:20 ImbaTosS wrote:
EDIT: I broke my own rule of ignoring this dickhead instantly. Fail.
If it makes you feel better, I appreciate your comment regardless of the garbage it's replying to.
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To flip the entire thing on its head, how would it be if you practiced EVEN FASTER?
We can now host games with #x2.99 speed and its completely batshit crazy difficult to keep up.
If you practiced that for a long time, do you think you would somehow acclimate to the higher speed?
So when you played normal speed in tournaments, it would somehow feel easier?
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Northern Ireland25342 Posts
On June 10 2025 23:49 Timebon3s wrote:
To flip the entire thing on its head, how would it be if you practiced EVEN FASTER?
We can now host games with #x2.99 speed and its completely batshit crazy difficult to keep up.
If you practiced that for a long time, do you think you would somehow acclimate to the higher speed?
So when you played normal speed in tournaments, it would somehow feel easier?
I think you’d just get worse at many things. Micro especially is a very rhythmic thing, macro cycles as well.
IMO changing the game speed in either direction throws your internal clock off, and is likely detrimental.
Take any kind of micro interaction, say kiting with marines. There’s a timing to doing that that’s inextricably linked to the game speed.
In effect I don’t think you’re learning how to micro marines, and then speeding it up or down. You’d be learning how to micro marines at half speed, then learning the different rhythm at 1x again, or 2x or whatever.
I’m probably not explaining myself very well here haha
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Yeah I understand exactly what you mean.
I also know if I did this with the guitar, I would absolutely suck ass at anything I tried, and I would learn very little.
However, after playing fastest (the map) a few times on x2.99, I feel like superman when playing on ladder.
That might be just my brain playing tricks on me though, but the multitasking aspect of things feels much easier.
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On June 11 2025 00:14 Timebon3s wrote:
Yeah I understand exactly what you mean.
I also know if I did this with the guitar, I would absolutely suck ass at anything I tried, and I would learn very little.
However, after playing fastest (the map) a few times on x2.99, I feel like superman when playing on ladder.
That might be just my brain playing tricks on me though, but the multitasking aspect of things feels much easier.
Faster speed is likely forcing you to focus on longer time stretches. Just like Artosis tries to avoid moving the mouse to scroll in order to conserve motion.
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imbatoss, u can't blame Nietzsche for Nazism...
just saying
btw. what u guys fail to understand is that progamers are trying to be #1 progamer...
im not talking going from amateur to progamer level....
if you want to be #1 progamer u have to work harder than #2 progamer... if #2 progamers prefers "smarter" training, then he is fucked against the boi that is willing to die to win the game.
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On June 10 2025 23:49 Timebon3s wrote:
To flip the entire thing on its head, how would it be if you practiced EVEN FASTER?
We can now host games with #x2.99 speed and its completely batshit crazy difficult to keep up.
If you practiced that for a long time, do you think you would somehow acclimate to the higher speed?
So when you played normal speed in tournaments, it would somehow feel easier?
we can compare this to something that happened with baseball pitchers and quarterbacks about a decade or two ago. Trainers figured that throwing with heavier balls would improve their throwing speeds and strength. But instead the players became less accurate and didn't throw faster either. They became used to the heavier balls which caused their nervous system and muscle control to adjust to throwing heavier balls. but this caused them to become worse at throwing the actual game balls, because their muscle control was no longer fine-tuned to the lighter balls, but to the heavier balls. so they just went back to training with actual game weight balls. the same counts for the weight of the bat. You have to train in the exact specific contidition you compete in. Sports specific training. Playing in faster environments will make you worse at playing in normal environments. eventually in baseball pitchinf and football throwing they figured technique specific training was the way to throw harder, more accurate and precise, and faster. Tom Brady recently made a short video on his throwing technique for example.
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United Kingdom1688 Posts
On June 11 2025 01:12 XenOsky wrote:
imbatoss, u can't blame Nietzsche for Nazism...
just saying
btw. what u guys fail to understand is that progamers are trying to be #1 progamer...
im not talking going from amateur to progamer level....
if you want to be #1 progamer u have to work harder than #2 progamer... if #2 progamers prefers "smarter" training, then he is fucked against the boi that is willing to die to win the game.
Agreed, you can't blame Nietszche for nazism, but I think unpleasant and problematic ideas should be called out.
To your second point, I don't know if we ultimately disagree - I'm just saying, as many others are, that the player who has both the smart training and is willing to push to his/her absolute limit to be the best, will win out.
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how the fuck did we get to "nazism" in this thread
jesus yall are something
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On June 11 2025 05:50 ShowTheLights wrote:
how the fuck did we get to "nazism" in this thread
jesus yall are something
It all started with a protoss doing 2 proxy gateways and look where we are.
What a trip indeed.
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Northern Ireland25342 Posts
On June 11 2025 01:12 XenOsky wrote:
imbatoss, u can't blame Nietzsche for Nazism...
just saying
btw. what u guys fail to understand is that progamers are trying to be #1 progamer...
im not talking going from amateur to progamer level....
if you want to be #1 progamer u have to work harder than #2 progamer... if #2 progamers prefers "smarter" training, then he is fucked against the boi that is willing to die to win the game.
Nobody discussing this fails to understand this.
If player A has a shit training regime, but is more naturally talented than player B who’s got a fantastic training regime, player A may stay at #1 if they work their arse off, or player B may be able to take top spot if their regime is sufficiently superior.
If player A copies player B’s practice routines, and works as hard or harder, there’s not really anything player B can do to be #1
Another important facet of it is when you’re working hard. When you’re getting to the top, you gotta bust your ass unless you’re some insane talent. But if you find yourself plateauing at a certain point, then perhaps is the time to rethink what you’re doing. Once you get to the summit, it’s hard to stay there but you’ll have acquired a lot of the skills you need, and it’s more a matter of maintenance or minor optimisations.
As say, Roger Federer was ageing he changed his game to keep competitive at the highest level. He wasn’t going to close the gap to his younger rivals by working harder and out-slugging them in long rallies. His body was already not letting him win that way, so he’d fail if he’d kept trying, and he had to look at alternative ways to do that.
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On June 10 2025 04:10 XenOsky wrote:
Brute force is the way... others forms of practice is for crybabies like nony (im talking starcraft, i dont give a fuck about piano or guitar best way of practice)
flash sacrificed an arm to be #1 ever...
-KT coach: "hey flash, you are really practicing too fast and for too many hours... u need to chill man, play slower and practice less hours... "
-FlaSh: "?????????????? dafuq u talking about i have to play JD next week... hes kinda fast and practices 29 hours a day"
IdrA was like... "ima do whatever they say".... and mother fucker became #1 foreigner.
he didnt cry, he just went to a pro team and did what he was told to do, and the kid became a beast.
the other guy, went to korea, and was like "coach this shit is too harsh, we need to practice less hours bois..." insta back to NA. even tho he was like x3 more talented than idra...
boxer in his book talks about how he felt ashamed after he saw an olympic skater practicing until her feet was spilling blood everywhere, then he was like "i need to practice until my fingers bleed"... he became the most iconic person in all of esports because... brute force > any other method, at least in starcraft...
slow practice is for newbies learning the game, if u plan to be #1, then u have to go full beast mode, unbalanced lifestyle, where ur craft is all that matters... Idra didnt complain?!? Bro...Idra complained nonstop. He raged nonstop. He was sour as fuck for years.
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He didn’t complain about the practice regimen within the team house. His online persona is completely different.
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On June 11 2025 07:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2025 01:12 XenOsky wrote:
imbatoss, u can't blame Nietzsche for Nazism...
just saying
btw. what u guys fail to understand is that progamers are trying to be #1 progamer...
im not talking going from amateur to progamer level....
if you want to be #1 progamer u have to work harder than #2 progamer... if #2 progamers prefers "smarter" training, then he is fucked against the boi that is willing to die to win the game. Nobody discussing this fails to understand this. If player A has a shit training regime, but is more naturally talented than player B who’s got a fantastic training regime, player A may stay at #1 if they work their arse off, or player B may be able to take top spot if their regime is sufficiently superior. If player A copies player B’s practice routines, and works as hard or harder, there’s not really anything player B can do to be #1 Another important facet of it is when you’re working hard. When you’re getting to the top, you gotta bust your ass unless you’re some insane talent. But if you find yourself plateauing at a certain point, then perhaps is the time to rethink what you’re doing. Once you get to the summit, it’s hard to stay there but you’ll have acquired a lot of the skills you need, and it’s more a matter of maintenance or minor optimisations. As say, Roger Federer was ageing he changed his game to keep competitive at the highest level. He wasn’t going to close the gap to his younger rivals by working harder and out-slugging them in long rallies. His body was already not letting him win that way, so he’d fail if he’d kept trying, and he had to look at alternative ways to do that.
In pro sports the most talented with the best body proportions for that specific sport tends to be the number 1. very rarely does a less talented harder working player get into the top 5 in any sport. In pro sports you will actually more often see the hardest workers do worse because they overtrain. There is a somewhat fine balance in heavily demanding physical sports between training and recovery. In recent years specifically trainers, physical therapists, and performance coaches, and sports scientists have found that more focus on recovery is in fact more important than doing more training. the central nervous system has to be in top condition for peak physical performance. the central nervous system only recovers with sufficient rest and proper nutrition.
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United States10160 Posts
On June 11 2025 20:25 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2025 07:00 WombaT wrote:On June 11 2025 01:12 XenOsky wrote:
imbatoss, u can't blame Nietzsche for Nazism...
just saying
btw. what u guys fail to understand is that progamers are trying to be #1 progamer...
im not talking going from amateur to progamer level....
if you want to be #1 progamer u have to work harder than #2 progamer... if #2 progamers prefers "smarter" training, then he is fucked against the boi that is willing to die to win the game. Nobody discussing this fails to understand this. If player A has a shit training regime, but is more naturally talented than player B who’s got a fantastic training regime, player A may stay at #1 if they work their arse off, or player B may be able to take top spot if their regime is sufficiently superior. If player A copies player B’s practice routines, and works as hard or harder, there’s not really anything player B can do to be #1 Another important facet of it is when you’re working hard. When you’re getting to the top, you gotta bust your ass unless you’re some insane talent. But if you find yourself plateauing at a certain point, then perhaps is the time to rethink what you’re doing. Once you get to the summit, it’s hard to stay there but you’ll have acquired a lot of the skills you need, and it’s more a matter of maintenance or minor optimisations. As say, Roger Federer was ageing he changed his game to keep competitive at the highest level. He wasn’t going to close the gap to his younger rivals by working harder and out-slugging them in long rallies. His body was already not letting him win that way, so he’d fail if he’d kept trying, and he had to look at alternative ways to do that. In pro sports the most talented with the best body proportions for that specific sport tends to be the number 1. very rarely does a less talented harder working player get into the top 5 in any sport. In pro sports you will actually more often see the hardest workers do worse because they overtrain. There is a somewhat fine balance in heavily demanding physical sports between training and recovery. In recent years specifically trainers, physical therapists, and performance coaches, and sports scientists have found that more focus on recovery is in fact more important than doing more training. the central nervous system has to be in top condition for peak physical performance. the central nervous system only recovers with sufficient rest and proper nutrition.
I would argue that based off physical metrics, both Kobe Bryant and Tom Brady were very average for their respective sport. Kobe gets compared to Jordan for example, but Jordan had a much higher vertical, bigger hands, bigger wingspan, etc, yet Kobe was able to mimic a lot of Jordan's abilities despite the physical attribute deficit. If you had wiped out Tom Brady's name on his physical chart and put him up against any other QB, he would've just totally been some average, even arguable below average, QB resume and hence why he ended up dropping to a 6th round draft pick.
Of course, these guys are outliers, I don't think anymore in the NBA or even NBA history works or has worked as hard as Kobe did. Now we see guys taking rest more seriously to extend longevity. But as you said, all the very top guys in their respective sports NEEDED to be physically and talently gifted to rise to the top. Lebron has arguably the best physique in NBA history with how seriously he trains. MJ was gifted with his own physical attributes (literally Air Jordan). A lot of Olympic sports show off the advantages of gifted physical traits. All the best sprinters are going to be tall with long legs. Asians for example are shorter with shorter femur bones, so they struggle. It was only until Su bingtian trained his ass off so hard that he finally became the first Asian-born sprinter to break 10s and currently 19th all time fastest 100m sprinter. But these guys are far and few between. You just can't out work talent that at least puts in some effort.
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On June 11 2025 22:55 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2025 20:25 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On June 11 2025 07:00 WombaT wrote:On June 11 2025 01:12 XenOsky wrote:
imbatoss, u can't blame Nietzsche for Nazism...
just saying
btw. what u guys fail to understand is that progamers are trying to be #1 progamer...
im not talking going from amateur to progamer level....
if you want to be #1 progamer u have to work harder than #2 progamer... if #2 progamers prefers "smarter" training, then he is fucked against the boi that is willing to die to win the game. Nobody discussing this fails to understand this. If player A has a shit training regime, but is more naturally talented than player B who’s got a fantastic training regime, player A may stay at #1 if they work their arse off, or player B may be able to take top spot if their regime is sufficiently superior. If player A copies player B’s practice routines, and works as hard or harder, there’s not really anything player B can do to be #1 Another important facet of it is when you’re working hard. When you’re getting to the top, you gotta bust your ass unless you’re some insane talent. But if you find yourself plateauing at a certain point, then perhaps is the time to rethink what you’re doing. Once you get to the summit, it’s hard to stay there but you’ll have acquired a lot of the skills you need, and it’s more a matter of maintenance or minor optimisations. As say, Roger Federer was ageing he changed his game to keep competitive at the highest level. He wasn’t going to close the gap to his younger rivals by working harder and out-slugging them in long rallies. His body was already not letting him win that way, so he’d fail if he’d kept trying, and he had to look at alternative ways to do that. In pro sports the most talented with the best body proportions for that specific sport tends to be the number 1. very rarely does a less talented harder working player get into the top 5 in any sport. In pro sports you will actually more often see the hardest workers do worse because they overtrain. There is a somewhat fine balance in heavily demanding physical sports between training and recovery. In recent years specifically trainers, physical therapists, and performance coaches, and sports scientists have found that more focus on recovery is in fact more important than doing more training. the central nervous system has to be in top condition for peak physical performance. the central nervous system only recovers with sufficient rest and proper nutrition. I would argue that based off physical metrics, both Kobe Bryant and Tom Brady were very average for their respective sport. Kobe gets compared to Jordan for example, but Jordan had a much higher vertical, bigger hands, bigger wingspan, etc, yet Kobe was able to mimic a lot of Jordan's abilities despite the physical attribute deficit. If you had wiped out Tom Brady's name on his physical chart and put him up against any other QB, he would've just totally been some average, even arguable below average, QB resume and hence why he ended up dropping to a 6th round draft pick. Of course, these guys are outliers, I don't think anymore in the NBA or even NBA history works or has worked as hard as Kobe did. Now we see guys taking rest more seriously to extend longevity. But as you said, all the very top guys in their respective sports NEEDED to be physically and talently gifted to rise to the top. Lebron has arguably the best physique in NBA history with how seriously he trains. MJ was gifted with his own physical attributes (literally Air Jordan). A lot of Olympic sports show off the advantages of gifted physical traits. All the best sprinters are going to be tall with long legs. Asians for example are shorter with shorter femur bones, so they struggle. It was only until Su bingtian trained his ass off so hard that he finally became the first Asian-born sprinter to break 10s and currently 19th all time fastest 100m sprinter. But these guys are far and few between. You just can't out work talent that at least puts in some effort.
I think RJB was refering to the physical side of sports. All ball sports have other significant skill factors going into what makes a great player/competitor. This is why in ball sports, you see people compete at top level for longer than in, say, 100 m dash. The latter is almost entirely based on physical, which start to slowly decline in the late 20's. This is true for ball sports as well but gets counteracted by increasing experience, which means players in their 30's can still compete because, while they somewhat deteriorate physically, they make up for it with experience (e.g. playing smarter).
Your american football example actually shows that there is even distinctions within a ball sport. I am by no means an expert on american football so please correct me if I'm wrong. I perceive it as a very position-based sport in what it asks of a given player. Tom Brady was a quarter back, which is definitely one of the less physically demanding positions in the sport. In his later years you could see very well that his physics couldn't hold up (would never run himself, couldn't help himself as soon as the defense failed) but made up for it by his game knowledge, overview and throwing skills. In comparison, a running back position is way more physical and hence those players will stop competing at high level at younger age.
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True and true. There were past headlines, American Marathon team achieving success with 10 hour sleep training cycle. It is very important to replenish the body. I've heard the nervous system excretes waste materials during sleep, so it might be building stamina during sleep just like muscles do during rest. Once you develop into adulthood you realise what precious finite resource sleep is.
Then we are taking about Starcraft where infinitesimal differences are exploited for a victory. I wouldn't discount these players have very strict daily disciplines.
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EPT
