EPT
[ASL17] Ro8 Day 4
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
| ||
|
tankgirl
Canada420 Posts
| ||
|
Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
| ||
|
HOLYBATS
Turkey731 Posts
| ||
|
angry_maia
314 Posts
| ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
FIGHTING! | ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
On April 09 2024 16:38 angry_maia wrote: In my dream world, Snow beats SK and Hero to take the championship That would also be cool, yes. | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
I hope he'll be playing with a similar cunning to get revenge for the last finals. Another PvP between Mini and Snow would be i_n_s_a_n_e as well. | ||
|
RJBTV
194 Posts
| ||
Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
LFG Mini! May you have your revenge. | ||
|
Piste
6177 Posts
| ||
|
HOLYBATS
Turkey731 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
I love Zealots | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
| ||
|
M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
| ||
|
HOLYBATS
Turkey731 Posts
| ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
| ||
|
durachok
9 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
| ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
On April 09 2024 19:44 durachok wrote: What is the idea behind this 2 hatch scourge build? To throw the game I think lol | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
| ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
| ||
|
HOLYBATS
Turkey731 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
On April 09 2024 19:44 durachok wrote: What is the idea behind this 2 hatch scourge build? I guess speed ling are supposed to clean up the pre +1 zealots or either all in bust toss' nat with muta/ling. | ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
On April 09 2024 19:49 Peeano wrote: I guess speed ling are supposed to clean up the pre +1 zealots or either all in bust toss' nat with muta/ling. The muta/ling part makes sense, except he never made a single muta lol (until much later in the game). I think he was expecting fast corsair since he was scouted 2 hatch, so that was the idea of scourge. However Mini big brained him and went for +1 timing attack instead. | ||
|
TMNT
2729 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
| ||
|
BoesFX
1451 Posts
On April 09 2024 19:48 foxmeep wrote: This is the Mini we expected to show up in ASL 16 finals after wiping the floor with Effort. Oh right, this might be the reason why Soulkey got caught off guard. Mini haven't shown his hands yet for PvZ matchup. | ||
|
TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 09 2024 19:34 M2 wrote: Looking at game 1, I realize how much the BOs impact and decide games in all match ups (perhaps not so much in TvT) nowadays. The game is so developed and perfected that a lucky (can we call it like this?) good start almost always translates into victory Has always been the case, but fans tend to read too much into it. Only when there is a clear difference in skill level of the two players that the better one can overcome the early BO disadvantage. Most of the times the early BO/spawn/map advantages just snowball into later victory. The losing player tends to get criticized for playing terribly or whatever, especially when we look back past seasons' scores and only see a number like 4-0 or 4-1 and don't remember how the games actually played out. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
| ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
On April 09 2024 19:55 PVJ wrote: Is Soulkey looking _this_ hopeless because of Mini or because of the 2 maps? Because in the Ro16 Soulkey obliterated Bisu. He got BO advantage and knows how to close. Game 3 shows what happens if the BO advantage goes the other way. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
2729 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
| ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:13 PVJ wrote: Wait, is it over? I had to go away for 10 minutes. Not just yet lol | ||
KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
Thanks for giving me hope. I really wanted to see live Mini moving on. First time following a match-day live this season and it's the best one. | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:10 foxmeep wrote: He got BO advantage and knows how to close. Game 3 shows what happens if the BO advantage goes the other way. I didn't think game 2 was a clear build-order advantage. It seemed to me it was real-time in-game tactics and brains that tricked the zerg. You are right he knows how to close. That's what makes it so exciting to watch Mini~~! | ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:18 PVJ wrote: I didn't think game 2 was a clear build-order advantage. It seemed to me it was real-time in-game tactics and brains that tricked the zerg. You are right he knows how to close. That's what makes it so exciting to watch Mini~~! Yeah that's true I was actually gonna comment Game 2 wasn't really a "BO" opening win but a mid-game decision win (to go +1 timing attack over corsair). | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
| ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:18 PVJ wrote: I didn't think game 2 was a clear build-order advantage. It seemed to me it was real-time in-game tactics and brains that tricked the zerg. You are right he knows how to close. That's what makes it so exciting to watch Mini~~! What's that quote about thin line between genius and insanity? Haha. That was almost such a sick strat by Mini but then it wasn't. | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
| ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:15 PVJ wrote: Thanks for giving me hope. I really wanted to see live Mini moving on. First time following a match-day live this season and it's the best one. I really hope Mini moves on, I want to watch Snow vs Mini so badly  Even though I am normally an any Zerg supporter. | ||
|
TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:18 PVJ wrote: I didn't think game 2 was a clear build-order advantage. It seemed to me it was real-time in-game tactics and brains that tricked the zerg. You are right he knows how to close. That's what makes it so exciting to watch Mini~~! It wasn't a clear BO advantage like game 1 and 3, but Soulkey did have to make a somewhat blind choice between Scourge and Muta. Mini was helped massively by Soulkey making the wrong choice. If Soulkey made Mutas there, he'd have been ahead. | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:38 Peeano wrote: Mini mental boom, this is NOT looking good lol Complete meltdown. This game goes to Soulkey, there's no hope for Mini. | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
Why not put the zealots on the ramp? Or make a forge. | ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
| ||
|
KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
| ||
|
ggsimida
1148 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
| ||
|
Malicious User Pride
3 Posts
| ||
|
Broodwar4lyf
304 Posts
| ||
|
foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
| ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:44 foxmeep wrote: I actually don't understand taking the bait though. If he's got a Nexus coming up then he just needs to sit and defend. If SK is droning hard behind, at that point he's not going to get those zealots across the map to do any damage anyway until he has a few more Mental boom makes you act irrational if anything. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:44 foxmeep wrote: I actually don't understand taking the bait though. If he's got a Nexus coming up then he just needs to sit and defend. If SK is droning hard behind, at that point he's not going to get those zealots across the map to do any damage anyway until he has a few more The game was already over the moment Mini's dual gate opener got scouted. Soulkey was in complete control for the rest of the game. Mini for some reason decided to build a second gateway despite being aware of SK's early pool. Every protoss player worth their salt will tell you that decision was an auto-loss. | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
On April 09 2024 20:26 foxmeep wrote: What's that quote about thin line between genius and insanity? Haha. That was almost such a sick strat by Mini but then it wasn't. :D Haha, yes. Mini is out of the loop every time he plays and it's just a 50-50 coin flip where he ends up. And also if I go by iron maiden it's a thin line between love and hate which is also quite working in today's context of the reverse-sweep | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
2729 Posts
For the second gate despite seeing the overlord, he probably gambled for a 12 hatch build from Soulkey. Basically he hoped to outplay Soulkey with early game micro agression because he knows he can't win a standard macro game against Soulkey without BO advantage. The real criticism is that he should have transferred those probes to the nat instead of fighting with them. That was a moment of madness. On April 09 2024 20:48 Magic Powers wrote: Mini for some reason decided to build a second gateway despite being aware of SK's early pool. Every protoss player worth their salt will tell you that decision was an auto-loss. it was built before the scouting probe reached Soulkey's main | ||
|
Bonyth
Poland563 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
On April 09 2024 21:00 TMNT wrote: Perspectives, guys. We have observer view, we know everything. Mini didn't know that Soulkey built his 2nd hatch in main and like 50 lings. If he knew, he would have just held the nat. But it's not a good look at this level to build a bunch of units and just sit there doing nothing. For the second gate despite seeing the overlord, he probably gambled for a 12 hatch build from Soulkey. Basically he hoped to outplay Soulkey with early game micro agression because he knows he can't win a standard macro game against Soulkey without BO advantage. The real criticism is that he should have transferred those probes to the nat instead of fighting with them. That was a moment of madness. it was built before the scouting probe reached Soulkey's main Ok, but the correct choice is certainly not to double down and just continue as if nothing had changed with that information. Mini should've known that the game would be over if he doesn't avert course. If he had instead gone for an expansion, at least he would've had some hope. No protoss player would ever willingly enter a dual gate vs pool first scenario if it can be avoided. It's an auto-loss scenario no matter how you slice it. | ||
|
TMNT
2729 Posts
Also things started to fall apart for him when he lost his scouting probe to 2 drones at Soulkey's nat. Game would have completely gone into another direction had that probe gone into the main and confirmed the 2nd hatch. | ||
|
oxKnu
1180 Posts
However, his approach to the matchup (and the opponent today) was great. He fought tooth and nail to either get an early advantage or prepare a killing move before going into mid-game in an equal position with Zerg. (initially equal, because we all know Zerg has 15 random options to then swing the game favorably quite easily). Also consider the maps he pulled this off on, it was clearly premeditated. As thing stand, I would still blindly take Mini against any Zerg rather than Snow. His approach is the correct one. Props to Soulkey for adjusting, something that he is definitely the most capable at, he is the BrainZerg (and the only one at that). | ||
|
TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 09 2024 21:28 Magic Powers wrote: Ok, but the correct choice is certainly not to double down and just continue as if nothing had changed with that information. Mini should've known that the game would be over if he doesn't avert course. If he had instead gone for an expansion, at least he would've had some hope. No protoss player would ever willingly enter a dual gate vs pool first scenario if it can be avoided. It's an auto-loss scenario no matter how you slice it. You mean cancel the gate and go for a normal game? Yeah probably should have done that. But I think he was weighing between playing a normal game (with 37 minerals lost) and couting on his micro (2 gate vs overpool is not impossible) and went for the latter. It's not auto loss though as you can see later in the game. The 6 zealots that were zoning one group of lings to the center of the map, ending up in no man's land after all. Certainly could have used them better. For example, if he just made a blind guess and held position all those zealots to make a full wall at the nat, and macro'd behind that. The game would have been playable. (but of course he didn't have observer view and couldnt make that decision like us) | ||
|
TMNT
2729 Posts
In fact they played two BO9s recently and Snow went down 2-4 in both series. | ||
|
Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
| ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKK ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! -.- | ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
ZvZ ASL finals incoming... | ||
|
HOLYBATS
Turkey731 Posts
I think SnOw will try to play late games. | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 09 2024 23:32 Shinokuki wrote: This is looking bad for zergs. Zerg has been doing badly online but very well offline. This is going to affect map pool once again, buffing maps for protoss while zergs (including ladder zergs) continue to suffer online. So you're saying Terran will benefit the most? | ||
|
RogerChillingworth
2872 Posts
Dude Soulkey is not afraid to make lings holy... I feel for Mini. I think he could have won this season if he advanced here. And he was so close. Shit | ||
|
RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 09 2024 21:53 TMNT wrote: Snow's probably lose 1-4 or 2-4 in the semifinals. He plays standard. Standard play gets you no chance in PvZ when skills are equal. In fact they played two BO9s recently and Snow went down 2-4 in both series. Nah SnOw will win 4-2. SnOw in his current form is Flash tier. Mark me words! | ||
|
RogerChillingworth
2872 Posts
On April 09 2024 21:18 Bonyth wrote: the decision to fight with probes wasn't the worst, the problem is that he didn't send zealots to the right place, and so they ended up being idle on the left side of nexus for a very decisive couple of seconds. If he sends them correctly, lings start to auto-target zlots instead of probes and as such, not as many probes would have died. Yes sending the zealots to the left of the nexus was a brutal moment. Oh well. I still think Mini played quite well. Knife's edge series. And an enjoyable one! | ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6590 Posts
| ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6590 Posts
On April 09 2024 23:32 Shinokuki wrote: This is looking bad for zergs. Zerg has been doing badly online but very well offline. This is going to affect map pool once again, buffing maps for protoss while zergs (including ladder zergs) continue to suffer online. Agree. These maps are terrible. In most of them is extremely hard to wall as a zerg player. And in most of them is very hard to defend a 4 expansion. Im not sure if we are going to get worse maps than troy / Blitz Y . But if we end up getting SK vs Hero final you can be sure we getting some crazy sparkle +76 maps for sure. :D | ||
|
Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
Can't explain lack of walls in any other way. | ||
|
prion_
69 Posts
| ||
|
Simplistik
2007 Posts
| ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On April 10 2024 00:53 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Agree. These maps are terrible. In most of them is extremely hard to wall as a zerg player. And in most of them is very hard to defend a 4 expansion. Im not sure if we are going to get worse maps than troy / Blitz Y . But if we end up getting SK vs Hero final you can be sure we getting some crazy sparkle +76 maps for sure. :D Yes they give simcity to protoss/terran but doesn't give any to zerg. Zerg's simcity is so wide open lol. They also give maps less chokes and easier time for P to get 4th expansion. It's like.. can we stop nerfing zergs JUST because they did well on ASL which is like 0.1% of sample size. We should make maps based on online statistics | ||
|
TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 10 2024 01:12 prion_ wrote: I'm curious what that Blitz Y game was supposed to look like according to Mini's plan because I just don't see that ever working A couple of things have to fall into place for it to work, aka luck, as you know, there's no such thing as a 100% build order success rate in BW. For once, if the probe arrived sooner (and the cannons were up sooner) it'd have helped. There was a 30s delay between the hatch and the pylon being put down. And then, all the lings, according to Mini's plan, should have been on the other side of the map attacking his nat (as he clearly invited Soulkey to do so), and he would fend it off with pure zealot micro. For some reason, Soulkey didn't catch the bait and flood lings to Mini's nat. That allowed him to quickly send all his lings to save his 3rd hatch. | ||
|
maybe
255 Posts
| ||
|
prion_
69 Posts
On April 10 2024 01:54 TMNT wrote: A couple of things have to fall into place for it to work, aka luck, as you know, there's no such thing as a 100% build order success rate in BW. For once, if the probe arrived sooner (and the cannons were up sooner) it'd have helped. There was a 30s delay between the hatch and the pylon being put down. And then, all the lings, according to Mini's plan, should have been on the other side of the map attacking his nat (as he clearly invited Soulkey to do so), and he would fend it off with pure zealot micro. For some reason, Soulkey didn't catch the bait and flood lings to Mini's nat. That allowed him to quickly send all his lings to save his 3rd hatch. Makes sense. Though surely the idea with the delay is to prevent SK from cancelling. | ||
|
Soft_General_5023
73 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 10 2024 00:17 RJBTV wrote: Nah SnOw will win 4-2. SnOw in his current form is Flash tier. Mark me words! I just noticed last season Soulkey was also down 2 games vs JYJ in Ro8 then JYJ kinda threw the last 3 games for him to come back. Then he beat another Terran in the semi. Mini and Snow this season could be the JYJ and Rush for Soulkey lol. | ||
|
Smorrie
Netherlands2922 Posts
Overall not the best series but it had some entertaining moments. Some sloppy plays from both sides across the series and a rather disappointing last game with Mini not even attempting to scout. And on build order advantages - did everyone already forget we just watched hero beat rush quite decisively while starting out with a BO disadvantage each game.. | ||
|
Vasoline73
United States7801 Posts
| ||
|
Lazyer
United States343 Posts
At least it was a better series than yesterday. | ||
|
Grouhh
56 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + himself | ||
|
TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 10 2024 15:16 Grouhh wrote: Mini getting beaten once again by his arch-nemesis. + Show Spoiler + himself Perfectly sums up Mini lol. I just realized Blitz Y has a win rate of ... 36% for Zerg. Just play a fking normal game and you are already favorite to win bro. This, and going 12 Nexus on Sylphid vs Sacsri's 9 pool in decider match Ro24, and picking Light first when you have champion privilege, haha... | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
I’m not sure he was confident in taking SK in long games so was gambling it up for early to mid games wins/losses. SK made a good adjustment by just massing lings early game. SK vs Snow should be epic. | ||
|
Highways
Australia6103 Posts
Wtf is that decision making | ||
|
RogerChillingworth
2872 Posts
| ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
That's just the way Mini rolls. He wins or loses on his own terms. His ocassional tilt-mode losses are still less painful than watching Bisu painfully dying to hydra busts. SK has his own distinct big brain playstyle like Larva which even a Toss fan can't begrudge too much. SK is a Zerg that even non-Zerg fans can root for. Relax people, Snow v SK will surely give us some long PvZ macro games. The real finals before the finals. I'm torn on who to root for - Snow for his long-awaited and much-deserved ASL victory, or SK for back-to-back wins. | ||
|
Ideas
United States8101 Posts
| ||
| ||
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/647.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1102.jpg)
