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[ASL17] Ro8 Day 4

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES50095 Posts
April 09 2024 04:53 GMT
#1

Afreeca Starleague Season 17


Tuesday, Apr 09 10:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)


Afreeca Starleague Season 17


Casters & Hosts


Tasteless | Artosis | Nyoken | eonzerg


Streams


Korean Afreeca Stream
StarCastTV(Gypsy and Nyoken)


Matchups and Maps



[image loading]      [image loading]
(Z)Soulkey              (P)Mini






Results


+ Show Spoiler [Full results] +






CSS: FO-nTTaX
Banner: v1


Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
TL+ Member
tankgirl
Profile Blog Joined May 2016
360 Posts
April 09 2024 05:18 GMT
#2
mini win for no zvz finals plz
Larva appears to have gone for a 3 hatch spire into lurker into hive before muta, into defiler guardian...off 2 base...
TL+ Member
Sonic_md
Profile Joined March 2020
Moldova275 Posts
April 09 2024 07:06 GMT
#3
Agree.
Subscribe to my YT channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Sonic_md...."SC:BW it is just game, but i love this game!" (c)Sonic_md.
HOLYBATS
Profile Joined August 2021
Turkey724 Posts
April 09 2024 07:35 GMT
#4
Go Mini!
angry_maia
Profile Joined August 2020
311 Posts
April 09 2024 07:38 GMT
#5
In my dream world, Snow beats SK and Hero to take the championship
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4170 Posts
April 09 2024 07:40 GMT
#6
Hopefully this is going to be a close one in which Mini comes out on top in the end.

FIGHTING!
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4170 Posts
April 09 2024 07:40 GMT
#7
On April 09 2024 16:38 angry_maia wrote:
In my dream world, Snow beats SK and Hero to take the championship

That would also be cool, yes.
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
April 09 2024 08:38 GMT
#8
There was a match between these two in KCM 2024 season 2, week 1. It was insane and funny at the same time where Mini went sair DT and then went to a 3rd and started to kill the hatching eggs before overlords could pop out. It was raw, brutal, and extremely effective.

I hope he'll be playing with a similar cunning to get revenge for the last finals. Another PvP between Mini and Snow would be i_n_s_a_n_e as well.
The heart's eternal vow
RJBTV
Profile Joined December 2022
194 Posts
April 09 2024 09:10 GMT
#9
100% most hyped for this set! SK is going to do some mad cheeses to offset Mini's aggressive openers.
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4968 Posts
April 09 2024 09:13 GMT
#10
Everyone seems so sure herO will crush Sharp. He beat the well performing SnOw and PvT monster Best convincingly. And any pro Terran can play at least decent TvZ. Anyway.

LFG Mini! May you have your revenge.
FBH #1!
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6171 Posts
April 09 2024 09:37 GMT
#11
This should be good. Mini hwaiting!
HOLYBATS
Profile Joined August 2021
Turkey724 Posts
April 09 2024 10:04 GMT
#12
Mini picked Troy he should have prepared special on G2.
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
April 09 2024 10:31 GMT
#13
Fantastic build order and execution from Mini.

I love Zealots
The heart's eternal vow
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4968 Posts
April 09 2024 10:31 GMT
#14
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs Mini Game 1?

Yes (17)
 
89%

No (1)
 
5%

If you have time (1)
 
5%

19 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs Mini Game 1?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

FBH #1!
M2
Profile Joined December 2002
Bulgaria4110 Posts
April 09 2024 10:34 GMT
#15
Looking at game 1, I realize how much the BOs impact and decide games in all match ups (perhaps not so much in TvT) nowadays. The game is so developed and perfected that a lucky (can we call it like this?) good start almost always translates into victory
Knife kitty, night kitty, put you on a slab. Stealthy kitty, hunter kitty, stab stab stab :-)
HOLYBATS
Profile Joined August 2021
Turkey724 Posts
April 09 2024 10:35 GMT
#16
Solid start from Mini. SK was always behind from the beginning.
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2333 Posts
April 09 2024 10:38 GMT
#17
He was definitely behind but he also had ~24 hydras on the other side of the map when he got attacked. He probably cleans up those 2 zealot attacks pretty easily if his army was close by, then he has a fourth up in the corner.
durachok
Profile Joined December 2020
9 Posts
April 09 2024 10:44 GMT
#18
What is the idea behind this 2 hatch scourge build?
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
April 09 2024 10:45 GMT
#19
The way he just walked in with the Zealots, like he was in a bar made of slime asking for a soda and having a card-game was so cool from Mini
The heart's eternal vow
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2333 Posts
April 09 2024 10:45 GMT
#20
On April 09 2024 19:44 durachok wrote:
What is the idea behind this 2 hatch scourge build?


To throw the game I think lol
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4968 Posts
April 09 2024 10:47 GMT
#21
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs Mini Game 2?

Yes (9)
 
60%

If you have time (5)
 
33%

No (1)
 
7%

15 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs Mini Game 2?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

FBH #1!
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
April 09 2024 10:47 GMT
#22
Man, Mini with his attack-upgrade two-phased push. Great planning for this map and this matchup
The heart's eternal vow
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2333 Posts
April 09 2024 10:48 GMT
#23
This is the Mini we expected to show up in ASL 16 finals after wiping the floor with Effort.
HOLYBATS
Profile Joined August 2021
Turkey724 Posts
April 09 2024 10:49 GMT
#24
Great prep from Mini as i anticipated.
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4968 Posts
April 09 2024 10:49 GMT
#25
On April 09 2024 19:44 durachok wrote:
What is the idea behind this 2 hatch scourge build?

I guess speed ling are supposed to clean up the pre +1 zealots or either all in bust toss' nat with muta/ling.
FBH #1!
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2333 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-09 10:51:14
April 09 2024 10:50 GMT
#26
On April 09 2024 19:49 Peeano wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2024 19:44 durachok wrote:
What is the idea behind this 2 hatch scourge build?

I guess speed ling are supposed to clean up the pre +1 zealots or either all in bust toss' nat with muta/ling.


The muta/ling part makes sense, except he never made a single muta lol (until much later in the game).

I think he was expecting fast corsair since he was scouted 2 hatch, so that was the idea of scourge. However Mini big brained him and went for +1 timing attack instead.
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2575 Posts
April 09 2024 10:52 GMT
#27
Nyoken and Gypsy seemed to miss that Mini took his gas even before building the first Gateway. I suppose it's for the very early +1 Zealot move out. Dude had his build all mapped out for the series.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3735 Posts
April 09 2024 10:55 GMT
#28
It's just Mini being Mini. Years of funky builds finally coming to fruition.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-09 10:56:03
April 09 2024 10:55 GMT
#29
Is Soulkey looking _this_ hopeless because of Mini or because of the 2 maps? Because in the Ro16 Soulkey obliterated Bisu.
The heart's eternal vow
BoesFX
Profile Joined April 2013
1451 Posts
April 09 2024 10:59 GMT
#30
On April 09 2024 19:48 foxmeep wrote:
This is the Mini we expected to show up in ASL 16 finals after wiping the floor with Effort.


Oh right, this might be the reason why Soulkey got caught off guard. Mini haven't shown his hands yet for PvZ matchup.
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2575 Posts
April 09 2024 11:00 GMT
#31
On April 09 2024 19:34 M2 wrote:
Looking at game 1, I realize how much the BOs impact and decide games in all match ups (perhaps not so much in TvT) nowadays. The game is so developed and perfected that a lucky (can we call it like this?) good start almost always translates into victory

Has always been the case, but fans tend to read too much into it.

Only when there is a clear difference in skill level of the two players that the better one can overcome the early BO disadvantage. Most of the times the early BO/spawn/map advantages just snowball into later victory. The losing player tends to get criticized for playing terribly or whatever, especially when we look back past seasons' scores and only see a number like 4-0 or 4-1 and don't remember how the games actually played out.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3735 Posts
April 09 2024 11:05 GMT
#32
Mini looked very upset when he scouted the zerg natural. But Soulkey's economy is so bad, this might be better for Mini.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4968 Posts
April 09 2024 11:05 GMT
#33
Rvr incoming? lol
FBH #1!
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4968 Posts
April 09 2024 11:10 GMT
#34
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs Mini Game 3?

Yes (10)
 
77%

If you have time (3)
 
23%

No (0)
 
0%

13 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs Mini Game 3?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

FBH #1!
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2333 Posts
April 09 2024 11:10 GMT
#35
On April 09 2024 19:55 PVJ wrote:
Is Soulkey looking _this_ hopeless because of Mini or because of the 2 maps? Because in the Ro16 Soulkey obliterated Bisu.


He got BO advantage and knows how to close. Game 3 shows what happens if the BO advantage goes the other way.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3735 Posts
April 09 2024 11:11 GMT
#36
Not sure why Mini went for reaver. Isn't zerg obligated to go for spire no matter what against one base protoss?
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2575 Posts
April 09 2024 11:11 GMT
#37
Yep. Just like I said before. The score is 2-1 now and the BO score is also 2-1.
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
April 09 2024 11:13 GMT
#38
Wait, is it over? I had to go away for 10 minutes.
The heart's eternal vow
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2333 Posts
April 09 2024 11:13 GMT
#39
On April 09 2024 20:13 PVJ wrote:
Wait, is it over? I had to go away for 10 minutes.


Not just yet lol
KristofferAG
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Norway25712 Posts
April 09 2024 11:14 GMT
#40
Thank god it wasn't another sweep.
@KristofferAG | http://vestkyststoy.bandcamp.com | last.fm/user/KristofferAG
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-09 11:16:37
April 09 2024 11:15 GMT
#41
On April 09 2024 20:13 foxmeep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2024 20:13 PVJ wrote:
Wait, is it over? I had to go away for 10 minutes.


Not just yet lol


Thanks for giving me hope. I really wanted to see live Mini moving on.

First time following a match-day live this season and it's the best one.
The heart's eternal vow
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
April 09 2024 11:18 GMT
#42
On April 09 2024 20:10 foxmeep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2024 19:55 PVJ wrote:
Is Soulkey looking _this_ hopeless because of Mini or because of the 2 maps? Because in the Ro16 Soulkey obliterated Bisu.


He got BO advantage and knows how to close. Game 3 shows what happens if the BO advantage goes the other way.

I didn't think game 2 was a clear build-order advantage. It seemed to me it was real-time in-game tactics and brains that tricked the zerg.

You are right he knows how to close. That's what makes it so exciting to watch Mini~~!
The heart's eternal vow
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2333 Posts
April 09 2024 11:22 GMT
#43
On April 09 2024 20:18 PVJ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2024 20:10 foxmeep wrote:
On April 09 2024 19:55 PVJ wrote:
Is Soulkey looking _this_ hopeless because of Mini or because of the 2 maps? Because in the Ro16 Soulkey obliterated Bisu.


He got BO advantage and knows how to close. Game 3 shows what happens if the BO advantage goes the other way.

I didn't think game 2 was a clear build-order advantage. It seemed to me it was real-time in-game tactics and brains that tricked the zerg.

You are right he knows how to close. That's what makes it so exciting to watch Mini~~!


Yeah that's true I was actually gonna comment Game 2 wasn't really a "BO" opening win but a mid-game decision win (to go +1 timing attack over corsair).
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES50095 Posts
April 09 2024 11:25 GMT
#44
at least we have a series.
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
TL+ Member
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2333 Posts
April 09 2024 11:26 GMT
#45
On April 09 2024 20:18 PVJ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2024 20:10 foxmeep wrote:
On April 09 2024 19:55 PVJ wrote:
Is Soulkey looking _this_ hopeless because of Mini or because of the 2 maps? Because in the Ro16 Soulkey obliterated Bisu.


He got BO advantage and knows how to close. Game 3 shows what happens if the BO advantage goes the other way.

I didn't think game 2 was a clear build-order advantage. It seemed to me it was real-time in-game tactics and brains that tricked the zerg.

You are right he knows how to close. That's what makes it so exciting to watch Mini~~!


What's that quote about thin line between genius and insanity? Haha.

That was almost such a sick strat by Mini but then it wasn't.
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4968 Posts
April 09 2024 11:29 GMT
#46
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs Mini Game 4?

Yes (10)
 
77%

If you have time (2)
 
15%

No (1)
 
8%

13 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs Mini Game 4?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

FBH #1!
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2333 Posts
April 09 2024 11:34 GMT
#47
On April 09 2024 20:15 PVJ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2024 20:13 foxmeep wrote:
On April 09 2024 20:13 PVJ wrote:
Wait, is it over? I had to go away for 10 minutes.


Not just yet lol


Thanks for giving me hope. I really wanted to see live Mini moving on.

First time following a match-day live this season and it's the best one.


I really hope Mini moves on, I want to watch Snow vs Mini so badly

Even though I am normally an any Zerg supporter.
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2575 Posts
April 09 2024 11:34 GMT
#48
On April 09 2024 20:18 PVJ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2024 20:10 foxmeep wrote:
On April 09 2024 19:55 PVJ wrote:
Is Soulkey looking _this_ hopeless because of Mini or because of the 2 maps? Because in the Ro16 Soulkey obliterated Bisu.


He got BO advantage and knows how to close. Game 3 shows what happens if the BO advantage goes the other way.

I didn't think game 2 was a clear build-order advantage. It seemed to me it was real-time in-game tactics and brains that tricked the zerg.

You are right he knows how to close. That's what makes it so exciting to watch Mini~~!

It wasn't a clear BO advantage like game 1 and 3, but Soulkey did have to make a somewhat blind choice between Scourge and Muta. Mini was helped massively by Soulkey making the wrong choice. If Soulkey made Mutas there, he'd have been ahead.
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4968 Posts
April 09 2024 11:38 GMT
#49
Mini mental boom, this is NOT looking good lol
FBH #1!
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3735 Posts
April 09 2024 11:40 GMT
#50
On April 09 2024 20:38 Peeano wrote:
Mini mental boom, this is NOT looking good lol


Complete meltdown. This game goes to Soulkey, there's no hope for Mini.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-09 11:44:54
April 09 2024 11:42 GMT
#51
It's a bit like pre-destined or something that it's the brains that brings down the brains that gives the advantage. These last two games were rubbish from a protoss perspective.

Why not put the zealots on the ramp? Or make a forge.
The heart's eternal vow
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2333 Posts
April 09 2024 11:42 GMT
#52
What in the hell was that fighting with probes vs 20 lings lol
KristofferAG
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Norway25712 Posts
April 09 2024 11:42 GMT
#53
That was... unexpected.
@KristofferAG | http://vestkyststoy.bandcamp.com | last.fm/user/KristofferAG
ggsimida
Profile Joined August 2015
1146 Posts
April 09 2024 11:42 GMT
#54
what is mini doing lmao??

Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4968 Posts
April 09 2024 11:42 GMT
#55
Poll: Recommend Soulkey vs Mini Game 5?

No (12)
 
57%

Yes (8)
 
38%

If you have time (1)
 
5%

21 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Soulkey vs Mini Game 5?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

FBH #1!
Malicious User Pride
Profile Joined April 2024
3 Posts
April 09 2024 11:43 GMT
#56
--- Nuked ---
Broodwar4lyf
Profile Blog Joined February 2016
304 Posts
April 09 2024 11:44 GMT
#57
Mini is just the worst player to cheer for. Man just gives up before his fans lol
https://cinesnipe.com
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2333 Posts
April 09 2024 11:44 GMT
#58
I actually don't understand taking the bait though. If he's got a Nexus coming up then he just needs to sit and defend. If SK is droning hard behind, at that point he's not going to get those zealots across the map to do any damage anyway until he has a few more
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
April 09 2024 11:47 GMT
#59
To answer my own question it was maps that made Soulkey look bad. The same zealot walk that made the match-up look like a hoola-dance on a beach, looked here like a march of prisoners to some siberian mine.
The heart's eternal vow
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4968 Posts
April 09 2024 11:47 GMT
#60
On April 09 2024 20:44 foxmeep wrote:
I actually don't understand taking the bait though. If he's got a Nexus coming up then he just needs to sit and defend. If SK is droning hard behind, at that point he's not going to get those zealots across the map to do any damage anyway until he has a few more

Mental boom makes you act irrational if anything.
FBH #1!
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3735 Posts
April 09 2024 11:48 GMT
#61
On April 09 2024 20:44 foxmeep wrote:
I actually don't understand taking the bait though. If he's got a Nexus coming up then he just needs to sit and defend. If SK is droning hard behind, at that point he's not going to get those zealots across the map to do any damage anyway until he has a few more


The game was already over the moment Mini's dual gate opener got scouted. Soulkey was in complete control for the rest of the game.
Mini for some reason decided to build a second gateway despite being aware of SK's early pool. Every protoss player worth their salt will tell you that decision was an auto-loss.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
April 09 2024 11:55 GMT
#62
On April 09 2024 20:26 foxmeep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2024 20:18 PVJ wrote:
On April 09 2024 20:10 foxmeep wrote:
On April 09 2024 19:55 PVJ wrote:
Is Soulkey looking _this_ hopeless because of Mini or because of the 2 maps? Because in the Ro16 Soulkey obliterated Bisu.


He got BO advantage and knows how to close. Game 3 shows what happens if the BO advantage goes the other way.

I didn't think game 2 was a clear build-order advantage. It seemed to me it was real-time in-game tactics and brains that tricked the zerg.

You are right he knows how to close. That's what makes it so exciting to watch Mini~~!


What's that quote about thin line between genius and insanity? Haha.

That was almost such a sick strat by Mini but then it wasn't.


:D Haha, yes. Mini is out of the loop every time he plays and it's just a 50-50 coin flip where he ends up.
And also if I go by iron maiden it's a thin line between love and hate which is also quite working in today's context of the reverse-sweep
The heart's eternal vow
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
April 09 2024 11:58 GMT
#63
The only Mini game that was more aggravating was the finals vs. Larva. I still can't believe the probes fighting this 5th match.
The heart's eternal vow
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2575 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-09 12:07:43
April 09 2024 12:00 GMT
#64
Perspectives, guys. We have observer view, we know everything. Mini didn't know that Soulkey built his 2nd hatch in main and like 50 lings. If he knew, he would have just held the nat. But it's not a good look at this level to build a bunch of units and just sit there doing nothing.

For the second gate despite seeing the overlord, he probably gambled for a 12 hatch build from Soulkey. Basically he hoped to outplay Soulkey with early game micro agression because he knows he can't win a standard macro game against Soulkey without BO advantage.

The real criticism is that he should have transferred those probes to the nat instead of fighting with them. That was a moment of madness.

On April 09 2024 20:48 Magic Powers wrote:
Mini for some reason decided to build a second gateway despite being aware of SK's early pool. Every protoss player worth their salt will tell you that decision was an auto-loss.

it was built before the scouting probe reached Soulkey's main
Bonyth
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland544 Posts
April 09 2024 12:18 GMT
#65
the decision to fight with probes wasn't the worst, the problem is that he didn't send zealots to the right place, and so they ended up being idle on the left side of nexus for a very decisive couple of seconds. If he sends them correctly, lings start to auto-target zlots instead of probes and as such, not as many probes would have died.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3735 Posts
April 09 2024 12:28 GMT
#66
On April 09 2024 21:00 TMNT wrote:
Perspectives, guys. We have observer view, we know everything. Mini didn't know that Soulkey built his 2nd hatch in main and like 50 lings. If he knew, he would have just held the nat. But it's not a good look at this level to build a bunch of units and just sit there doing nothing.

For the second gate despite seeing the overlord, he probably gambled for a 12 hatch build from Soulkey. Basically he hoped to outplay Soulkey with early game micro agression because he knows he can't win a standard macro game against Soulkey without BO advantage.

The real criticism is that he should have transferred those probes to the nat instead of fighting with them. That was a moment of madness.

Show nested quote +
On April 09 2024 20:48 Magic Powers wrote:
Mini for some reason decided to build a second gateway despite being aware of SK's early pool. Every protoss player worth their salt will tell you that decision was an auto-loss.

it was built before the scouting probe reached Soulkey's main


Ok, but the correct choice is certainly not to double down and just continue as if nothing had changed with that information. Mini should've known that the game would be over if he doesn't avert course. If he had instead gone for an expansion, at least he would've had some hope. No protoss player would ever willingly enter a dual gate vs pool first scenario if it can be avoided. It's an auto-loss scenario no matter how you slice it.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2575 Posts
April 09 2024 12:30 GMT
#67
Yeah that too. He probably A clicked the zealots to the main and left it at that for a few seconds. Tbf Protoss is always fighting a losing battle once speedlings slip into their main.

Also things started to fall apart for him when he lost his scouting probe to 2 drones at Soulkey's nat. Game would have completely gone into another direction had that probe gone into the main and confirmed the 2nd hatch.
oxKnu
Profile Joined December 2017
1177 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-09 12:38:30
April 09 2024 12:37 GMT
#68
Mini took risks and they obviously didn't work out.

However, his approach to the matchup (and the opponent today) was great.
He fought tooth and nail to either get an early advantage or prepare a killing move before going into mid-game in an equal position with Zerg. (initially equal, because we all know Zerg has 15 random options to then swing the game favorably quite easily).
Also consider the maps he pulled this off on, it was clearly premeditated.

As thing stand, I would still blindly take Mini against any Zerg rather than Snow. His approach is the correct one.

Props to Soulkey for adjusting, something that he is definitely the most capable at, he is the BrainZerg (and the only one at that).
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2575 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-09 12:44:12
April 09 2024 12:39 GMT
#69
On April 09 2024 21:28 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2024 21:00 TMNT wrote:
Perspectives, guys. We have observer view, we know everything. Mini didn't know that Soulkey built his 2nd hatch in main and like 50 lings. If he knew, he would have just held the nat. But it's not a good look at this level to build a bunch of units and just sit there doing nothing.

For the second gate despite seeing the overlord, he probably gambled for a 12 hatch build from Soulkey. Basically he hoped to outplay Soulkey with early game micro agression because he knows he can't win a standard macro game against Soulkey without BO advantage.

The real criticism is that he should have transferred those probes to the nat instead of fighting with them. That was a moment of madness.

On April 09 2024 20:48 Magic Powers wrote:
Mini for some reason decided to build a second gateway despite being aware of SK's early pool. Every protoss player worth their salt will tell you that decision was an auto-loss.

it was built before the scouting probe reached Soulkey's main


Ok, but the correct choice is certainly not to double down and just continue as if nothing had changed with that information. Mini should've known that the game would be over if he doesn't avert course. If he had instead gone for an expansion, at least he would've had some hope. No protoss player would ever willingly enter a dual gate vs pool first scenario if it can be avoided. It's an auto-loss scenario no matter how you slice it.

You mean cancel the gate and go for a normal game? Yeah probably should have done that. But I think he was weighing between playing a normal game (with 37 minerals lost) and couting on his micro (2 gate vs overpool is not impossible) and went for the latter.

It's not auto loss though as you can see later in the game. The 6 zealots that were zoning one group of lings to the center of the map, ending up in no man's land after all. Certainly could have used them better. For example, if he just made a blind guess and held position all those zealots to make a full wall at the nat, and macro'd behind that. The game would have been playable. (but of course he didn't have observer view and couldnt make that decision like us)
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2575 Posts
April 09 2024 12:53 GMT
#70
Snow's probably lose 1-4 or 2-4 in the semifinals. He plays standard. Standard play gets you no chance in PvZ when skills are equal.

In fact they played two BO9s recently and Snow went down 2-4 in both series.
Terrorbladder
Profile Joined May 2014
2717 Posts
April 09 2024 13:06 GMT
#71
I left home when game 2 just finished and Soulkey looked shellshocked. 40 mins later I opened my phone to take a glance at the stream and there Soulkey was taking the winner's interview. What happened?
My dream is to fertilize two females at a time.
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4170 Posts
April 09 2024 13:46 GMT
#72
+ Show Spoiler +
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKK ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

-.-
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4170 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-09 13:48:11
April 09 2024 13:46 GMT
#73
Worst possible timeline..

ZvZ ASL finals incoming...
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
HOLYBATS
Profile Joined August 2021
Turkey724 Posts
April 09 2024 14:02 GMT
#74
SK was prepared for some of Mini's early aggression.He did 9 pool openings.
I think SnOw will try to play late games.
Shinokuki
Profile Joined July 2013
United States859 Posts
April 09 2024 14:32 GMT
#75
This is looking bad for zergs. Zerg has been doing badly online but very well offline. This is going to affect map pool once again, buffing maps for protoss while zergs (including ladder zergs) continue to suffer online.
Life is just life
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2575 Posts
April 09 2024 14:41 GMT
#76
On April 09 2024 23:32 Shinokuki wrote:
This is looking bad for zergs. Zerg has been doing badly online but very well offline. This is going to affect map pool once again, buffing maps for protoss while zergs (including ladder zergs) continue to suffer online.

So you're saying Terran will benefit the most?
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
2827 Posts
April 09 2024 15:10 GMT
#77
Mini why you break my heart like dis : ((

Dude Soulkey is not afraid to make lings holy...

I feel for Mini. I think he could have won this season if he advanced here. And he was so close. Shit
aka wilted_kale
RJBTV
Profile Joined December 2022
194 Posts
April 09 2024 15:17 GMT
#78
On April 09 2024 21:53 TMNT wrote:
Snow's probably lose 1-4 or 2-4 in the semifinals. He plays standard. Standard play gets you no chance in PvZ when skills are equal.

In fact they played two BO9s recently and Snow went down 2-4 in both series.

Nah SnOw will win 4-2. SnOw in his current form is Flash tier. Mark me words!
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
2827 Posts
April 09 2024 15:35 GMT
#79
On April 09 2024 21:18 Bonyth wrote:
the decision to fight with probes wasn't the worst, the problem is that he didn't send zealots to the right place, and so they ended up being idle on the left side of nexus for a very decisive couple of seconds. If he sends them correctly, lings start to auto-target zlots instead of probes and as such, not as many probes would have died.


Yes sending the zealots to the left of the nexus was a brutal moment.

Oh well. I still think Mini played quite well. Knife's edge series. And an enjoyable one!
aka wilted_kale
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6514 Posts
April 09 2024 15:48 GMT
#80
I can understand Mini not knowing that SK made his hatchery inside the main and he didnt know exactly how big of a lead he was in. But he decided to play in the dark and not sending any worker out to force more multitasking from zerg and maybe finding a way to put agression with zealots. Second he Saw the early zerling speed but decided to not fully wall his expansion. That is the one that truly makes me think he just turn off his brain for the last 2 games. On blitz Y he decided to build his core and the forge in the main and left the natural fully open. That allowed lings to get in as they pleased..He either tried to play very brave and forcing a good exchange in those situations or bugged so hard that forgot the basics of pvz.
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6514 Posts
April 09 2024 15:53 GMT
#81
On April 09 2024 23:32 Shinokuki wrote:
This is looking bad for zergs. Zerg has been doing badly online but very well offline. This is going to affect map pool once again, buffing maps for protoss while zergs (including ladder zergs) continue to suffer online.

Agree. These maps are terrible. In most of them is extremely hard to wall as a zerg player. And in most of them is very hard to defend a 4 expansion. Im not sure if we are going to get worse maps than troy / Blitz Y . But if we end up getting SK vs Hero final you can be sure we getting some crazy sparkle +76 maps for sure. :D
Soulforged
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Latvia917 Posts
April 09 2024 15:57 GMT
#82
Tbh, his gameplan in the later games looked to be "bait ling runby on purpose and then kill them with no losses with godlike micro", and he didn't quite pull that off.

Can't explain lack of walls in any other way.
prion_
Profile Joined September 2022
66 Posts
April 09 2024 16:12 GMT
#83
I'm curious what that Blitz Y game was supposed to look like according to Mini's plan because I just don't see that ever working
Simplistik
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
1994 Posts
April 09 2024 16:14 GMT
#84
What a wonky series.
Dear BW Gods, I know it's not autumn (in the Northern hemisphere), but please have mercy on Protoss.
Shinokuki
Profile Joined July 2013
United States859 Posts
April 09 2024 16:28 GMT
#85
On April 10 2024 00:53 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2024 23:32 Shinokuki wrote:
This is looking bad for zergs. Zerg has been doing badly online but very well offline. This is going to affect map pool once again, buffing maps for protoss while zergs (including ladder zergs) continue to suffer online.

Agree. These maps are terrible. In most of them is extremely hard to wall as a zerg player. And in most of them is very hard to defend a 4 expansion. Im not sure if we are going to get worse maps than troy / Blitz Y . But if we end up getting SK vs Hero final you can be sure we getting some crazy sparkle +76 maps for sure. :D


Yes they give simcity to protoss/terran but doesn't give any to zerg. Zerg's simcity is so wide open lol. They also give maps less chokes and easier time for P to get 4th expansion. It's like.. can we stop nerfing zergs JUST because they did well on ASL which is like 0.1% of sample size. We should make maps based on online statistics
Life is just life
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2575 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-09 16:55:47
April 09 2024 16:54 GMT
#86
On April 10 2024 01:12 prion_ wrote:
I'm curious what that Blitz Y game was supposed to look like according to Mini's plan because I just don't see that ever working

A couple of things have to fall into place for it to work, aka luck, as you know, there's no such thing as a 100% build order success rate in BW.

For once, if the probe arrived sooner (and the cannons were up sooner) it'd have helped. There was a 30s delay between the hatch and the pylon being put down.

And then, all the lings, according to Mini's plan, should have been on the other side of the map attacking his nat (as he clearly invited Soulkey to do so), and he would fend it off with pure zealot micro.

For some reason, Soulkey didn't catch the bait and flood lings to Mini's nat. That allowed him to quickly send all his lings to save his 3rd hatch.
maybe
Profile Joined January 2008
249 Posts
April 09 2024 18:22 GMT
#87
That last game.. wtf Mini looks like a match-fixer almost
prion_
Profile Joined September 2022
66 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-09 18:50:35
April 09 2024 18:50 GMT
#88
On April 10 2024 01:54 TMNT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2024 01:12 prion_ wrote:
I'm curious what that Blitz Y game was supposed to look like according to Mini's plan because I just don't see that ever working

A couple of things have to fall into place for it to work, aka luck, as you know, there's no such thing as a 100% build order success rate in BW.

For once, if the probe arrived sooner (and the cannons were up sooner) it'd have helped. There was a 30s delay between the hatch and the pylon being put down.

And then, all the lings, according to Mini's plan, should have been on the other side of the map attacking his nat (as he clearly invited Soulkey to do so), and he would fend it off with pure zealot micro.

For some reason, Soulkey didn't catch the bait and flood lings to Mini's nat. That allowed him to quickly send all his lings to save his 3rd hatch.


Makes sense. Though surely the idea with the delay is to prevent SK from cancelling.
Soft_General_5023
Profile Joined December 2023
68 Posts
April 09 2024 20:13 GMT
#89
snow is probably glad to play soulkey rather than mini
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2575 Posts
April 09 2024 20:17 GMT
#90
On April 10 2024 00:17 RJBTV wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2024 21:53 TMNT wrote:
Snow's probably lose 1-4 or 2-4 in the semifinals. He plays standard. Standard play gets you no chance in PvZ when skills are equal.

In fact they played two BO9s recently and Snow went down 2-4 in both series.

Nah SnOw will win 4-2. SnOw in his current form is Flash tier. Mark me words!

I just noticed last season Soulkey was also down 2 games vs JYJ in Ro8 then JYJ kinda threw the last 3 games for him to come back. Then he beat another Terran in the semi.

Mini and Snow this season could be the JYJ and Rush for Soulkey lol.
Smorrie
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands2922 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-09 21:45:21
April 09 2024 21:40 GMT
#91
Classic Mini. He should've at least attempted another 12 Nex. He pretty much took a gamble 5 times and it only really worked well the first game.

Overall not the best series but it had some entertaining moments. Some sloppy plays from both sides across the series and a rather disappointing last game with Mini not even attempting to scout.

And on build order advantages - did everyone already forget we just watched hero beat rush quite decisively while starting out with a BO disadvantage each game..
It has a strong technique, but it lacks oo.
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7795 Posts
April 09 2024 23:10 GMT
#92
Man... Mini lol. It's like he's playing against himself.
Lazyer
Profile Joined August 2011
United States341 Posts
April 10 2024 02:35 GMT
#93
Mini mini mini... it's so unfortunate that the games SK won were more like games that Mini was just not competitive.

At least it was a better series than yesterday.
Grouhh
Profile Joined May 2019
55 Posts
April 10 2024 06:16 GMT
#94
Mini getting beaten once again by his arch-nemesis.
+ Show Spoiler +
himself
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2575 Posts
April 10 2024 06:35 GMT
#95
On April 10 2024 15:16 Grouhh wrote:
Mini getting beaten once again by his arch-nemesis.
+ Show Spoiler +
himself

Perfectly sums up Mini lol. I just realized Blitz Y has a win rate of ... 36% for Zerg. Just play a fking normal game and you are already favorite to win bro.

This, and going 12 Nexus on Sylphid vs Sacsri's 9 pool in decider match Ro24, and picking Light first when you have champion privilege, haha...
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13000 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-10 10:50:38
April 10 2024 10:49 GMT
#96
Not sure what the point was in cannoning SK’s third. Mini is like the guy in a bball game who is always gambling in passing lanes for steals. Sometimes it comes off and other times you look like a goose.

I’m not sure he was confident in taking SK in long games so was gambling it up for early to mid games wins/losses. SK made a good adjustment by just massing lings early game. SK vs Snow should be epic.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
Highways
Profile Joined July 2005
Australia6102 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-10 12:22:56
April 10 2024 12:22 GMT
#97
Mini had a nice lead in game 5 and then decides to lose all his probes to a ling run by?

Wtf is that decision making
#1 Terran hater
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
2827 Posts
April 10 2024 13:44 GMT
#98
Mini being his own worst enemy is part of why I love him so much. It's beautiful.
aka wilted_kale
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-10 17:41:03
April 10 2024 17:37 GMT
#99
What a crazy epic slugfest! It would've been nice to have some long proper macro games, of course. But it's so much cooler to watch these early game off-meta knife-edge fights rather than the same old hydra busts and ovie-hunting sairs.

That's just the way Mini rolls. He wins or loses on his own terms. His ocassional tilt-mode losses are still less painful than watching Bisu painfully dying to hydra busts.

SK has his own distinct big brain playstyle like Larva which even a Toss fan can't begrudge too much. SK is a Zerg that even non-Zerg fans can root for.

Relax people, Snow v SK will surely give us some long PvZ macro games. The real finals before the finals. I'm torn on who to root for - Snow for his long-awaited and much-deserved ASL victory, or SK for back-to-back wins.
gg no re thx
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8080 Posts
April 10 2024 19:04 GMT
#100
Mini I love you, but sometimes you out-mindgame yourself I think lol. Really feels like Games 4 and 5 never stood a chance outside a distinct BO advantage? More fun series to watch than their finals match last season, but I wish mini played standard in one of those last 2 games. Although I guess both games he would have been in a better shape if he stopped lings from running by and killing so many probes (especially game 5 deciding to fight that many lings with probes seemed incredibly foolish even to me as I was watching it).
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