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16987 Posts
On March 30 2023 20:44 Artas1984 wrote:Bisu, you idiot! Because of your fault, we now have 5 zergs in ro8. Everyone was cheering for you, even people who don't like you, just because you were supposed to bring balance to the force! What a fail! The only positive outcome i see from this is JD having the best chances to win ASL now. Show nested quote +On March 29 2023 22:32 TMNT wrote:
He still has decent results online. Last 3 months he's 14-14 vs Hero, 46-34 vs Soma, 17-8 vs Queen, 25-16 vs Light (wow I didn't expect this one). Definitely can still hang out with the top 8.
He just plays pretty bad offline in general I'd say. It seems like the case with all the Protoss now. Seems like Hero is actually the best protoss killer zerg at the moment. Though i am disappointed beyond lowest low that he advanced, i was very impressed with him non the less, his muta switch in the first game was executed in god tier level.
Hero and Zero have always been ZvP snipers. Very strong matchup for the both of them.
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On March 31 2023 08:53 moktira wrote:
I've been a Bisu fan since I first started following the pro scene in 2007, I can't remember the last time I haven't been disappointed in a tournament, I suppose at least he's had some success that I got to enjoy. But man am I sick of seeing him lose to Mind...
I sympathise. When Bisu does particularly badly, well, I sometimes lose interest in watching. The reality is probably that Bisu's peak was from 2007 to 2009. Although he is actually quite successful in the post-KeSpA era. He did win SSL 9, made the final of Vant and SSL11, and he also made 3 ASL semis, including last year. While not championship level, that is pretty good. The ASL era seems to have been pretty unkind to Protoss in general, with really only Rain, Mini and Snow having an impact at the top. Seems like we need some Protoss maps...
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Mind played really well. Very entertaining play by Bisu vs Ssak. Very disappointing final set. I swear, everytime I see a Hero vs Bisu match up I think Hero must be up 100-3 or something on the head count. Bisu never stands a chance against him in official matches. At some point Hero just builds Hydras and wins, it's inevitable.
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Mind played out of his, well, Mind. Didn’t have time to watch the games live and let out a groan when I saw on Liquipedia that Bisu didn’t make it. 1 Toss in the ro8…
As a side note, this is looking like a realistic finals for JD… No way SK loses a ZvT to JyJ, and that would mean at least two ZvZs…
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Am i the only one who think Bisu is playing his A game? Pretty sure Bisu is very close to his peak. Everyone else has got better, and thats how it is.
I hope hes as motivated as JD, because it took a good 2 years to JD to actually improve and reach the next level.
But Bisu is clearly a top tier player right now anyway, thanks to his micro/macro. But imo, he just cant get away with his poor decision making like he did in "his prime".
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On another note, i cant wait to see the liquibets on Best vs Action. I cant believe im actually thinking to bet on Best. Every goddamn ASL i swear im done with the guy, ahhhh
If there is one zerg who can affect Best mindset, its Action though. This should be good
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On April 01 2023 21:14 TornadoSteve wrote:
Am i the only one who think Bisu is playing his A game? Pretty sure Bisu is very close to his peak. Everyone else has got better, and thats how it is.
Absolutely not, mechanic-wise most korean pros are worse compared to their Kespa days, including Bisu. Bisu's shuttle play vs Sharp was super entertaining and impressive but he fumbled some unloads and his shuttles also sometimes sat there for 20 seconds or so while getting shot by random goliaths. No way that would have happened to 2007-2009 Bisu.
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On April 01 2023 22:10 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2023 21:14 TornadoSteve wrote:
Am i the only one who think Bisu is playing his A game? Pretty sure Bisu is very close to his peak. Everyone else has got better, and thats how it is. Absolutely not, mechanic-wise most korean pros are worse compared to their Kespa days, including Bisu. Bisu's shuttle play vs Sharp was super entertaining and impressive but he fumbled some unloads and his shuttles also sometimes sat there for 20 seconds or so while getting shot by random goliaths. No way that would have happened to 2007-2009 Bisu.
I'm not sure about that.. I remember how in KESPA days zergs struggled to defend 3rd base from terran push. And now around same in game time they just kill terrans on pure micro.
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On April 01 2023 23:28 orth0dox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2023 22:10 Miragee wrote:On April 01 2023 21:14 TornadoSteve wrote:
Am i the only one who think Bisu is playing his A game? Pretty sure Bisu is very close to his peak. Everyone else has got better, and thats how it is. Absolutely not, mechanic-wise most korean pros are worse compared to their Kespa days, including Bisu. Bisu's shuttle play vs Sharp was super entertaining and impressive but he fumbled some unloads and his shuttles also sometimes sat there for 20 seconds or so while getting shot by random goliaths. No way that would have happened to 2007-2009 Bisu. I'm not sure about that.. I remember how in KESPA days zergs struggled to defend 3rd base from terran push. And now around same in game time they just kill terrans on pure micro.
Right, but that also happened at times during the post-Kespa era and I think there is more to it than just the the surface-level micro you see outright. One part has to do with evolving strategies and meta. For example, when 5 rax play was new and dominant, zergs reeeally struggled to set up a third base. Over time, zergs figured out strategies to counter it better and nowadays you only see 5 rax every now and then to mix it up.
Small adjustments in timings for units and buidlings make a huge difference at this level and age of the game, when everything's so tight. A few seconds can litterally making the difference in holding something vs struggling or getting busted. Builds these days are more refined and efficient compared to the Kespa-era and other stuff, such as mineral-boosting, are now available to the player.
All in all, the timings now are just very different. Terran used to do siege timings before swarm for example. Zerg almost never started the third base before mutas were out. Hive/swarm timings are generally quicker these days.
One more thing I would throw in that is another mechanical limitation on terran's part to bust a third is how quickly they move accross the map. This takes a lot of multi-tasking and speed to do efficiently and makes a hell of a difference when it comes to busting zerg's third. This is one of the reasons why Flash would bust zergs way more often than most other terrans. He just moved accross the map so quickly withouth losing many units or fumbling on his macro, base-defense against mutas etc.
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On April 02 2023 00:07 TornadoSteve wrote:
Siege before muta?!
Right, I meant to say before swarm, got things mixed up, I'll edit that. I meant a very specific m&m+siege timing that was very standard for quite a while.
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On April 02 2023 00:14 Miragee wrote:Right, I meant to say before swarm, got things mixed up, I'll edit that. I meant a very specific m&m+siege timing that was very standard for quite a while.
It's still very standard, we see it in a lot of games.
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On April 01 2023 23:59 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2023 23:28 orth0dox wrote:On April 01 2023 22:10 Miragee wrote:On April 01 2023 21:14 TornadoSteve wrote:
Am i the only one who think Bisu is playing his A game? Pretty sure Bisu is very close to his peak. Everyone else has got better, and thats how it is. Absolutely not, mechanic-wise most korean pros are worse compared to their Kespa days, including Bisu. Bisu's shuttle play vs Sharp was super entertaining and impressive but he fumbled some unloads and his shuttles also sometimes sat there for 20 seconds or so while getting shot by random goliaths. No way that would have happened to 2007-2009 Bisu. I'm not sure about that.. I remember how in KESPA days zergs struggled to defend 3rd base from terran push. And now around same in game time they just kill terrans on pure micro. Right, but that also happened at times during the post-Kespa era and I think there is more to it than just the the surface-level micro you see outright. One part has to do with evolving strategies and meta. For example, when 5 rax play was new and dominant, zergs reeeally struggled to set up a third base. Over time, zergs figured out strategies to counter it better and nowadays you only see 5 rax every now and then to mix it up. Small adjustments in timings for units and buidlings make a huge difference at this level and age of the game, when everything's so tight. A few seconds can litterally making the difference in holding something vs struggling or getting busted. Builds these days are more refined and efficient compared to the Kespa-era and other stuff, such as mineral-boosting, are now available to the player. All in all, the timings now are just very different. Terran used to do siege timings before swarm for example. Zerg almost never started the third base before mutas were out. Hive/swarm timings are generally quicker these days. One more thing I would throw in that is another mechanical limitation on terran's part to bust a third is how quickly they move accross the map. This takes a lot of multi-tasking and speed to do efficiently and makes a hell of a difference when it comes to busting zerg's third. This is one of the reasons why Flash would bust zergs way more often than most other terrans. He just moved accross the map so quickly withouth losing many units or fumbling on his macro, base-defense against mutas etc.
I'm actually just start following the pro-scene recently again after awhile, so maybe this is the perfect time to ask. What exactly did Zerg pros figure our against 5 rax? I remember it was quite hopeless as the mutas ball could never be enough to hold the 3rd, nor do much dmg against the mass MM with upgraded.
Was it simply better muta micro or?
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It depends of the map obviously, but the fast 3rd on "standard maps" wasnt a thing back in the days
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I'm under impression that nowadays players technique is superior to Kespa days. It is just they only show it when they prepare for ASL cause it's only one relevant tournament left. Other part of year they just fool around on custom maps or stream to make a living. When Kespa was a thing, every single upcoming match was analyzed by whole team, and they often used very specific all ins on nonstandard maps. Now everyone is on their own and players tend to play solid standards that rely on top notch execution to win against other player that also play in same way.
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On April 02 2023 00:49 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2023 00:14 Miragee wrote:On April 02 2023 00:07 TornadoSteve wrote:
Siege before muta?! Right, I meant to say before swarm, got things mixed up, I'll edit that. I meant a very specific m&m+siege timing that was very standard for quite a while. It's still very standard, we see it in a lot of games.
Really? I rarely see those siege timings anymore. There are pushes with siege before swarm but they depend on the situation. In general the early to mid game in TvZ feels way more open nowadays. What I meant was that, in my memory, ZvT used to be very static before swarm. Almost every game looked like this: 1rax expand by terra and 3 hatch muta by zerg (2 hatch if all in). First push by terran when the spire was almost done to force 3-4 sunkens. Defend mutas until the first vessel was out. Push with M&M, 2-3 tanks and 1 vessel before swarm. If the zerg didn't die, then the match was on. Maybe my memory is off. It has been over a decade so it wouldn't surprise me. This was before mech openings became more prevelant in the late stages of the kespa era.
On April 02 2023 13:36 vndestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2023 23:59 Miragee wrote:On April 01 2023 23:28 orth0dox wrote:On April 01 2023 22:10 Miragee wrote:On April 01 2023 21:14 TornadoSteve wrote:
Am i the only one who think Bisu is playing his A game? Pretty sure Bisu is very close to his peak. Everyone else has got better, and thats how it is. Absolutely not, mechanic-wise most korean pros are worse compared to their Kespa days, including Bisu. Bisu's shuttle play vs Sharp was super entertaining and impressive but he fumbled some unloads and his shuttles also sometimes sat there for 20 seconds or so while getting shot by random goliaths. No way that would have happened to 2007-2009 Bisu. I'm not sure about that.. I remember how in KESPA days zergs struggled to defend 3rd base from terran push. And now around same in game time they just kill terrans on pure micro. Right, but that also happened at times during the post-Kespa era and I think there is more to it than just the the surface-level micro you see outright. One part has to do with evolving strategies and meta. For example, when 5 rax play was new and dominant, zergs reeeally struggled to set up a third base. Over time, zergs figured out strategies to counter it better and nowadays you only see 5 rax every now and then to mix it up. Small adjustments in timings for units and buidlings make a huge difference at this level and age of the game, when everything's so tight. A few seconds can litterally making the difference in holding something vs struggling or getting busted. Builds these days are more refined and efficient compared to the Kespa-era and other stuff, such as mineral-boosting, are now available to the player. All in all, the timings now are just very different. Terran used to do siege timings before swarm for example. Zerg almost never started the third base before mutas were out. Hive/swarm timings are generally quicker these days. One more thing I would throw in that is another mechanical limitation on terran's part to bust a third is how quickly they move accross the map. This takes a lot of multi-tasking and speed to do efficiently and makes a hell of a difference when it comes to busting zerg's third. This is one of the reasons why Flash would bust zergs way more often than most other terrans. He just moved accross the map so quickly withouth losing many units or fumbling on his macro, base-defense against mutas etc. I'm actually just start following the pro-scene recently again after awhile, so maybe this is the perfect time to ask. What exactly did Zerg pros figure our against 5 rax? I remember it was quite hopeless as the mutas ball could never be enough to hold the 3rd, nor do much dmg against the mass MM with upgraded. Was it simply better muta micro or?
I think it was multiple things that made terrans drift away from 5 rax. Maybe some of the better, more educated terrans here can answer this in a better way because they know the exact timings. But I will try:
- more lurker openings compared to muta openings.
- zergs getting used to the timing led to them being more comfortable in delaying the push with mutas/zerglings.
- lurker stacking became more abundant.
- flash developed and improved his 1-1-1 strat, which he found to be superior to 5 rax at the time.
On April 03 2023 04:30 orth0dox wrote:
I'm under impression that nowadays players technique is superior to Kespa days. It is just they only show it when they prepare for ASL cause it's only one relevant tournament left. Other part of year they just fool around on custom maps or stream to make a living. When Kespa was a thing, every single upcoming match was analyzed by whole team, and they often used very specific all ins on nonstandard maps. Now everyone is on their own and players tend to play solid standards that rely on top notch execution to win against other player that also play in same way.
I mean, what you are saying certainly supports the hypthesis that mechanic skill was higher during Kespa days. Players trained their mechanics more vigorously. However, more players were "incomplete" players, especially because of proleague strategies you mentioned. A lot of players didn't get the room to become "smarter" players, experiment much. A lot of tricks were also discovered or turned out to be more efficient after the Kespa days, which impact battles and so on. Iirc, focussing with siege tanks was less of a focus.
So most "mechanical" advancement today are due to increased knowledge. If you gave pros back in the day all that knowledge, the execution would be even better. Of course it's a bit speculative, but that's how I see it. And everytime I jump back to watch old games I'm reminded of the level of multitasking and reaction speed of the players, which reinforces my believe. I could still be wrong of course...
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EPT
