I don't get how Snow won so many fights vs hydra lurker when he was only ~10-15 supply ahead.

Like, his storms were on point, but Soma/Queen's army control was just super off. Also losing so many hydra/lurker running away across half the map? I dunno. Game is hard, but I feel the Zs were a bit sloppy.

moktira

Ireland1548 Posts

September 06 2022 21:29 GMT

#63

On September 07 2022 06:08 Last Romantic wrote:
I don't get how Snow won so many fights vs hydra lurker when he was only ~10-15 supply ahead.

Like, his storms were on point, but Soma/Queen's army control was just super off. Also losing so many hydra/lurker running away across half the map? I dunno. Game is hard, but I feel the Zs were a bit sloppy.

Didn't he have an upgrade advantage at that point? Or was that a different game I'm thinking of.

TMNT

3246 Posts

September 06 2022 22:34 GMT

#64

On September 07 2022 02:02 namkraft wrote:
On hindsight, I don't think Neo Arkanoid is imba for zerg vs. protoss. It's simply a coin flip.
1. if zerg went for 1 base zergling rush, or 2 base hydras rusk, you can go for 14 nexus and simply out-macro him. Just put a pylon at each entrance and u'll be fine. in this case, don't build stargate.
2. if zerg went mutas rush, you can rush to corsairs and still beat him.
Any other scenario, toss will fail.

The same goes for zerg.

The only kind of advantage that Zerg has is free early scout. But again, only if he's lucky to scout in the right direction (33% chance).

We already saw Snow defeated Sacsri with scenario 2 above in KCM last week.

Nah you're not getting it. Ofc it's a coin flip but the problem is the coin generally gives Z better odds, then T, and lastly P.

Think about PvZ on normal maps. As P you can still die to ling, hydra, lurker, or muta rush on a standard map. But you get to scout and have some clues and maybe stop it. On Arkanoid you don't even know where the Z is until your first sair is out. So you have to make a totally blind choice and hope it works. For example, you rush to sair on 1 base to know what the hell the Z is doing (like Snow), but then you find out they're going 2H hydra bust and you can't get your cannons up in time (and also where?).

The same doesn't apply for Zerg. On standard map the only early cheese P can do are 2 gate or cannon rush, which of course dont work here. So as Z you're completely safe in the early game and by the time the overlord finds P you're mostly prepared for whatever is coming at you.

Fundamentally it goes back to the fact that the build order for Protoss diverges the most out of the 3 races, down to the placement of the first pylon. So it's easiest to go wrong for Protoss. While as Zerg it's all fine whether you go pool first or hatch first. Terran is kind of in the middle. It's very similar to the way each race deals with random.

QOGQOG

834 Posts

September 06 2022 22:58 GMT

#65

What a fantastic performance by Snow. I really hope he can take home a trophy this season, it's overdue.

Edit: Finished watching and congrats to SoulKey as well. Was not expecting both of the players who have historically been held back by their vZ matchups advance.

RowdierBob

Australia13430 Posts

September 07 2022 01:28 GMT

#66

Such a great performance from Snow. Can't believe he won that last game vs Zero.

Re Arkanoid, I think in longer games it favours P in PvZ as it's a bit island-y with all the neutral buildings. But I reckon Ps have to be a bit more conservative in the early game. 1 base cair/reaver into expanding so you can better defend early rushes. Snow seemed a bit too eager to expand early and it cost him.

reincremate

China2216 Posts

September 07 2022 01:32 GMT

#67

On September 07 2022 01:42 MeSaber wrote:

Show nested quote +

Whats so upsetting? Snow is a beast.

Not upsetting, but Zero and Soma were clear favorites.

neveranexit

14 Posts

September 07 2022 04:49 GMT

#68

Snow vs Zero game 3 is some of the best StarCraft I've ever seen. This 2022 ASL makes the SC2 scene and 2011 OSL look like child's play. Incredible play from the ASL players this year. So hype.

RKC

2848 Posts

September 07 2022 05:33 GMT

#69

So happy for Snow and SK! Really feared the worst for them (especially for SK).

Has SK's ZvZ really improved? Or just coin-flip flukes?

Any recommended games?

Glad that Soma dropped out. Really silly of him to pick Snow.

As I said previously, I think Snow made a brilliant strategic master stroke by picking Queen (knowing Queen will likely pick another Zerg). Snow gets to prep for only one matchup, while the Zergs have to stress over ZvZ micro and mind games. Plus he gets to eliminate pesky Zergs at the group stage rather than face a gruelling B05 PvZ series.

Szinkler

Hungary394 Posts

September 07 2022 07:33 GMT

#70

Game 3 was the best game of this ASL sofar. As to some of the questions why Snow could beat Zero's army with pretty close supply: the key here was the "backstab" where part of Snow's army was killing the nat and Zero had to bring everything home at once, he did not have the luxury of splitting the hydras any way he wants them because every second mattered a ton. So that's why Snow had an easy time storming. He just needed to wait for the main army in the best position near opponent's nat (and hydras tunneling) to get out way ahead. If Zero tried splitting there his nat is gone and also a few things (like drones) in his main as well and probably he still loses way too many hydras anyway.
At least this is how I see it. (Basically that was a gg moment right there. The only thing that could have changed the outcome was if Zero can come from both sides but looking at the map that is also not really possible in time.)

MeSaber

Sweden1235 Posts

September 07 2022 08:10 GMT

#71

On September 07 2022 10:32 reincremate wrote:

Show nested quote +

Not upsetting, but Zero and Soma were clear favorites.

I had Snow and Zero as winners. Sure there were doubts vs 3 zergs but you still dont play 3 zergs anyway. Snow does this kind of streaks in Race Wars too.