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On September 26 2020 05:00 Cruiser0929 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 04:33 oxKnu wrote:
I think Cruiser's post is mostly about Flash and Bisu. Most other guys would probably take the money and participate in whatever tournament is available.
The idea that the SC1 korean scene is that healthy that they can skip tournaments with a decent prize pool and just focus on the AfreecaTV fans is frankly ridiculous (for guys other than Flash, Bisu etc..)
I will explain more. What you forget is that the author of this article wants an ASL quality tournament. They will never spend 2-3 months in a tournament that Korean fans are not interested in. To explain this, you need to know about Korean culture They don't just take part in tournaments for prize money. In fact, Rush recently reached RO16 with perfect performance. And he was congratulated by countless StarCraft fans and received 30000 star balloons in 2 hours. 30000 starballoon = $3000. All gamers are like this. The higher they advance, the more congratulations and money they receive from korean starcraft fans. If Korean fans aren't interested in the two or three month tournaments they take part in, the fans won't even know they've won the tournament. Tournaments that end in one day, such as Have At You, can participate. It's not just a big tournament, it's an online tournament, not offline. They can participate for prize money And I am correct about Flash and Bisu Actually, ASL's average number of viewers fluctuates greatly depending on whether Flash and Bisu participate. If you are planning the best tournaments of ASL quality, can you imagine them not participating?
I didn't doubt the comments you made about the Korean SC1 culture. I just don't think they apply to that many of these guys, mostly from a financial perspective.
Sure, I know that ASL performances are greatly appreciated by fans (I was watching Soma after his big ASL run and he got swamped in donations that time) but how frequent of an event is this for non-legend status active players? I doubt that much since ASL basically runs twice every year.
Would Shinee pass on the opportunity to play in a tournament where he has a realistic chance to get 1st for let's say 5K? I would be surprised if that is the case.
I mentioned him because I think he's a guy that's clearly head and shoulders in skill above any foreigner and he doesn't seem to be popular on Afreeca.
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On September 26 2020 05:36 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 05:00 Cruiser0929 wrote:On September 26 2020 04:33 oxKnu wrote:
I think Cruiser's post is mostly about Flash and Bisu. Most other guys would probably take the money and participate in whatever tournament is available.
The idea that the SC1 korean scene is that healthy that they can skip tournaments with a decent prize pool and just focus on the AfreecaTV fans is frankly ridiculous (for guys other than Flash, Bisu etc..)
I will explain more. What you forget is that the author of this article wants an ASL quality tournament. They will never spend 2-3 months in a tournament that Korean fans are not interested in. To explain this, you need to know about Korean culture They don't just take part in tournaments for prize money. In fact, Rush recently reached RO16 with perfect performance. And he was congratulated by countless StarCraft fans and received 30000 star balloons in 2 hours. 30000 starballoon = $3000. All gamers are like this. The higher they advance, the more congratulations and money they receive from korean starcraft fans. If Korean fans aren't interested in the two or three month tournaments they take part in, the fans won't even know they've won the tournament. Tournaments that end in one day, such as Have At You, can participate. It's not just a big tournament, it's an online tournament, not offline. They can participate for prize money And I am correct about Flash and Bisu Actually, ASL's average number of viewers fluctuates greatly depending on whether Flash and Bisu participate. If you are planning the best tournaments of ASL quality, can you imagine them not participating? I didn't doubt the comments you made about the Korean SC1 culture. I just don't think they apply to that many of these guys, mostly from a financial perspective. Sure, I know that ASL performances are greatly appreciated by fans (I was watching Soma after his big ASL run and he got swamped in donations that time) but how frequent of an event is this for non-legend status active players? I doubt that much since ASL basically runs twice every year. Would Shinee pass on the opportunity to play in a tournament where he has a realistic chance to get 1st for let's say 5K? I would be surprised if that is the case. I mentioned him because I think he's a guy that's clearly head and shoulders in skill above any foreigner and he doesn't seem to be popular on Afreeca.
You said "a decent prize pool" and now are saying $5k? who's running tournaments that are open to anyone for $5k?
Decent is a relative term in league with a reality of the current state of things. $5k is not decent, its an amazing prizepool.
Unless it's for a 2-3 months tournament, then while $5k is great for the winner, i figure most players would rather stream more.
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i think if your are serious in any way you should donate something to esports.fund and/or any Korean organization alike
esports.fund has shown repeatedly how they just give to broodwar, and are ready to meet your wishes in a professional way. show some faith to the community, a lot of people have given you their trust by simply posting in this thread positive things: do not betray their trust please.
also understand, you came out with a big idea, hosting a 100k tour. give people a tangible signal someway that you are serious about this please. everyone has given you their trust until now.
TLDR: if you really have 100k to put into this, giving 0.5% (500$) to a trusted organization such as eports.fund to hold it for you or to give it to a tournament of broodwar, is a sign that you are serious about this. People will help you as they have allready suggested. your move.
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On September 26 2020 05:47 SchAmToo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 05:36 oxKnu wrote:On September 26 2020 05:00 Cruiser0929 wrote:On September 26 2020 04:33 oxKnu wrote:
I think Cruiser's post is mostly about Flash and Bisu. Most other guys would probably take the money and participate in whatever tournament is available.
The idea that the SC1 korean scene is that healthy that they can skip tournaments with a decent prize pool and just focus on the AfreecaTV fans is frankly ridiculous (for guys other than Flash, Bisu etc..)
I will explain more. What you forget is that the author of this article wants an ASL quality tournament. They will never spend 2-3 months in a tournament that Korean fans are not interested in. To explain this, you need to know about Korean culture They don't just take part in tournaments for prize money. In fact, Rush recently reached RO16 with perfect performance. And he was congratulated by countless StarCraft fans and received 30000 star balloons in 2 hours. 30000 starballoon = $3000. All gamers are like this. The higher they advance, the more congratulations and money they receive from korean starcraft fans. If Korean fans aren't interested in the two or three month tournaments they take part in, the fans won't even know they've won the tournament. Tournaments that end in one day, such as Have At You, can participate. It's not just a big tournament, it's an online tournament, not offline. They can participate for prize money And I am correct about Flash and Bisu Actually, ASL's average number of viewers fluctuates greatly depending on whether Flash and Bisu participate. If you are planning the best tournaments of ASL quality, can you imagine them not participating? I didn't doubt the comments you made about the Korean SC1 culture. I just don't think they apply to that many of these guys, mostly from a financial perspective. Sure, I know that ASL performances are greatly appreciated by fans (I was watching Soma after his big ASL run and he got swamped in donations that time) but how frequent of an event is this for non-legend status active players? I doubt that much since ASL basically runs twice every year. Would Shinee pass on the opportunity to play in a tournament where he has a realistic chance to get 1st for let's say 5K? I would be surprised if that is the case. I mentioned him because I think he's a guy that's clearly head and shoulders in skill above any foreigner and he doesn't seem to be popular on Afreeca. You said "a decent prize pool" and now are saying $5k? who's running tournaments that are open to anyone for $5k? Decent is a relative term in league with a reality of the current state of things. $5k is not decent, its an amazing prizepool. Unless it's for a 2-3 months tournament, then while $5k is great for the winner, i figure most players would rather stream more.
Tried to frame it in the context of this thread (although I still think the OP and his desire/availability to put that kind of money on the line is bogus).
Also I doubt the excuse made for Flash and Bisu to skip all the KSLs is anything but just a financial decision rather than anything else.
Whatever 25K up top was available for KSL was just not enough incentive for Flash and his partnership with Afreeca (and whatever side-deal they have).
In the case of Bisu I think it was similar (getting swamped in donations after just coming back) and him being out of shape (so as opposed to Flash, who would be heavily favorite to get all the money).
So if they can net more money over the course of those 2-3 months why bother with that tournament since they can easily make more doing something else.
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On September 26 2020 06:00 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 05:47 SchAmToo wrote:On September 26 2020 05:36 oxKnu wrote:On September 26 2020 05:00 Cruiser0929 wrote:On September 26 2020 04:33 oxKnu wrote:
I think Cruiser's post is mostly about Flash and Bisu. Most other guys would probably take the money and participate in whatever tournament is available.
The idea that the SC1 korean scene is that healthy that they can skip tournaments with a decent prize pool and just focus on the AfreecaTV fans is frankly ridiculous (for guys other than Flash, Bisu etc..)
I will explain more. What you forget is that the author of this article wants an ASL quality tournament. They will never spend 2-3 months in a tournament that Korean fans are not interested in. To explain this, you need to know about Korean culture They don't just take part in tournaments for prize money. In fact, Rush recently reached RO16 with perfect performance. And he was congratulated by countless StarCraft fans and received 30000 star balloons in 2 hours. 30000 starballoon = $3000. All gamers are like this. The higher they advance, the more congratulations and money they receive from korean starcraft fans. If Korean fans aren't interested in the two or three month tournaments they take part in, the fans won't even know they've won the tournament. Tournaments that end in one day, such as Have At You, can participate. It's not just a big tournament, it's an online tournament, not offline. They can participate for prize money And I am correct about Flash and Bisu Actually, ASL's average number of viewers fluctuates greatly depending on whether Flash and Bisu participate. If you are planning the best tournaments of ASL quality, can you imagine them not participating? I didn't doubt the comments you made about the Korean SC1 culture. I just don't think they apply to that many of these guys, mostly from a financial perspective. Sure, I know that ASL performances are greatly appreciated by fans (I was watching Soma after his big ASL run and he got swamped in donations that time) but how frequent of an event is this for non-legend status active players? I doubt that much since ASL basically runs twice every year. Would Shinee pass on the opportunity to play in a tournament where he has a realistic chance to get 1st for let's say 5K? I would be surprised if that is the case. I mentioned him because I think he's a guy that's clearly head and shoulders in skill above any foreigner and he doesn't seem to be popular on Afreeca. You said "a decent prize pool" and now are saying $5k? who's running tournaments that are open to anyone for $5k? Decent is a relative term in league with a reality of the current state of things. $5k is not decent, its an amazing prizepool. Unless it's for a 2-3 months tournament, then while $5k is great for the winner, i figure most players would rather stream more. Tried to frame it in the context of this thread (although I still think the OP and his desire/availability to put that kind of money on the line is bogus). Also I doubt the excuse made for Flash and Bisu to skip all the KSLs is anything but just a financial decision rather than anything else. Whatever 25K up top was available for KSL was just not enough incentive for Flash and his partnership with Afreeca (and whatever side-deal they have). In the case of Bisu I think it was similar (getting swamped in donations after just coming back) and him being out of shape (so as opposed to Flash, who would be heavily favorite to get all the money). So if they can net more money over the course of those 2-3 months why bother with that tournament since they can easily make more doing something else.
Yes, but they can make more stable money doing something else which is: stream to koreans. The point being made by Cruiser/CM is that Koreans see more value in streaming, than for a chance at money, since streaming is so pivotal to them making money outside of winning. Even the low viewer count ones make decent money.
Therefore, if a tournament has no korean presence and is a long time investment, they will not participate because they need to maintain a schedule/viewerbase with koreans to keep making money at all. Even if it looks like good money to us, it's risky to bank on that over consistent viewer basis.
Source: i know many twitch broadcasters who have the same logic for playing in/going-to tournaments or not
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So in other words, just to wind it back to the OP, if our willing sponsor here does not obtain Afreeca's support in this endeavor then it's probably best if he keeps his money close to the chest. (or invest it in something else)
...dream dead? RIP?
I doubt 100K is a large enough of a sum for a corporate entity. Unless they're open for smaller events.
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On September 26 2020 06:15 oxKnu wrote:
So in other words, just to wind it back to the OP, if our willing sponsor here does not obtain Afreeca's support in this endeavor then it's probably best if he keeps his money close to the chest. (or invest it in something else)
...dream dead? RIP?
I doubt 100K is a large enough of a sum for a corporate entity. Unless they're open for smaller events.
This dream is dead because the OP is a troll and the posts lack any material investment other than someone claiming they have money to throw away. Any sponsor/TO/etc worth their word goes about this in a vastly different way.
If Zzzero said he was doing this or Rus_brain, there would be hope. But someone with no post history getting y'alls dreams up is just a troll trying to jerk emotions.
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On September 26 2020 06:15 oxKnu wrote:
So in other words, just to wind it back to the OP, if our willing sponsor here does not obtain Afreeca's support in this endeavor then it's probably best if he keeps his money close to the chest. (or invest it in something else)
...dream dead? RIP?
I doubt 100K is a large enough of a sum for a corporate entity. Unless they're open for smaller events.
Shinee made a controversial remark about ASL and was therefore disqualified. This is why he does not participate in ASL.
And you are mistaken for something
The reason Flash and Bisu did not participate in KSL in the past was simply the reason the tournament was not streaming on AfreecaTV.
AfreecaTV didn't limit anything to Flash and Bisu.
And when Light won the KSL, he received a huge sum of money from fans.
KSL got enough attention, if not as much as ASL. And if Flash and Bisu participated in KSL, I'm sure that KSL's viewership would have increased by at least twice as much.
The point is that in the end, fans want Korean casters in the tournament, and they must invite Korean casters from ASL to watch the tournament.
Gamers understand how much interest Korean fans are in the tournament. If it is not worth it, do not participate.
In fact, they earn monthly revenues equal to ASL's winning prizes.
Sponsored matches, simple donations, small tournaments, etc.
Now, tournament prizes are just the most minor incidental reason why Korean gamers participate in the tournament.
The most important thing is the interest of Korean StarCraft fans, the tournament will not run unless the fans are interested. And if the fans are not interested, they can't make money.
The only way to break this logic is to prove that StarCraft 1 fans around the world, excluding Korea, are bigger than fans in the Korean StarCraft scene.
But is it possible? I think it's impossible.
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You're running a continuous false dichotomy in all of your posts though. If the 'interest' of Korean fans is all that matters and financial prizes are just because they have to be there then how do you quantify what is most valuable for the fans in the first place?
There's a reason ASL is far more popular than KCM or some other minor leagues and that is because it pays the most(through eventual income as well) and fans know that the players will show up for it and give it their best effort. It's what happens in every e-sport really.
Wipe out some of those big cash prizes in the big e-sport tournaments of other games as well and watch how that fan interest slowly dwindles in the competition too.
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On September 26 2020 08:36 oxKnu wrote:
You're running a continuous false dichotomy in all of your posts though. If the 'interest' of Korean fans is all that matters and financial prizes are just because they have to be there then how do you quantify what is most valuable for the fans in the first place?
There's a reason ASL is far more popular than KCM or some other minor leagues and that is because it pays the most(through eventual income as well) and fans know that the players will show up for it and give it their best effort. It's what happens in every e-sport really.
Wipe out some of those big cash prizes in the big e-sport tournaments of other games as well and watch how that fan interest slowly dwindles in the competition too.
It's not a 1 or 0 formula, and Cruiser is trying to describe to you how it works. Of course it's more complex than purely money or purely fans, but there is a situational decision that streamer/players have to make.
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I think Cruiser has a reasonable argument. And oxKnu, I don't know if you know, but I planned and conducted a show-match between Scarlett and Cadenzie. And there were requests from countless foreign fans, so I allowed Artosis to cast the content in English. That's what foreign fans said to me. "Without English Caster, this content won't attract foreigners' attention."
Then, when there is no Korean caster, do you think this content can be an issue for Korean Starcraft fans?
I can give back what foreign fans have claimed to me.
"Without a Korean caster, this content will not attract Koreans' attention."
Then the chances of FlaSh and Bisu playing will be reduced. Should I express this in the same way?
"If it's not transmitted on AfreecaTV, FlaSh and Bisu are very likely not to participate in the competition."
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Russian Federation378 Posts
Read about the biggest offline tournament Russian Cyber Games 2020 by Rus_Brain, Finals planned at this december. And consider donation here. We have $10,000 out of $15,000 to make it possible to happen in 2021. With your generous support we could reach it much faster!
Thanks!
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The OP still hasn't answered, why is this thread still open?
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On September 26 2020 14:25 TelecoM wrote:
The OP still hasn't answered, why is this thread still open?
He replied roughly ten hours before your post.
Aside from the debatable potential this has, it's still an interesting conversation to follow between the Korean side and the foreign organizers. No need to close yet. Also, don't forget we could get another interesting insight into the depths of hockey trading craftsmanship or similar endeavours.
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On September 26 2020 16:17 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 14:25 TelecoM wrote:
The OP still hasn't answered, why is this thread still open? He replied roughly ten hours before your post. Aside from the debatable potential this has, it's still an interesting conversation to follow between the Korean side and the foreign organizers. No need to close yet. Also, don't forget we could get another interesting insight into the depths of hockey trading craftsmanship or similar endeavours.
ROFL, Gecko is a genius! I support 100%.
Also big thanks to Cruiser and CasterMuse for actually sharing some useful insight about AfreecaTV and the Korean players!
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On September 26 2020 11:43 iFU.spx wrote:Read about the biggest offline tournament Russian Cyber Games 2020 by Rus_Brain, Finals planned at this december. And consider donation here. We have $10,000 out of $15,000 to make it possible to happen in 2021. With your generous support we could reach it much faster! Thanks!
I very much second this proposition, probably the best one thus far.
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United States10384 Posts
imo I think mods should just close this thread until OP can dm admins with some kind of proof that he actually has this money he speaks of. It's a waste of everyone's time to even consider something as ludicrous as this, especially for those who are offering their services.
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On September 27 2020 03:59 FlaShFTW wrote:
imo I think mods should just close this thread until OP can dm admins with some kind of proof that he actually has this money he speaks of. It's a waste of everyone's time to even consider something as ludicrous as this, especially for those who are offering their services.
*Ambitious*
This is all good and very much appreciated if you can provide us with some actual proof. Start off small work your way up. Build up some reputation and show us some dedication. Flashing 100$ Bills at a Chuck e Cheese ball pit doesn't mean we will want to play, especially knowing there isn't some kind of guarantee that if we do perform you won't just cut out.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On September 26 2020 06:04 SchAmToo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 06:00 oxKnu wrote:On September 26 2020 05:47 SchAmToo wrote:On September 26 2020 05:36 oxKnu wrote:On September 26 2020 05:00 Cruiser0929 wrote:On September 26 2020 04:33 oxKnu wrote:
I think Cruiser's post is mostly about Flash and Bisu. Most other guys would probably take the money and participate in whatever tournament is available.
The idea that the SC1 korean scene is that healthy that they can skip tournaments with a decent prize pool and just focus on the AfreecaTV fans is frankly ridiculous (for guys other than Flash, Bisu etc..)
I will explain more. What you forget is that the author of this article wants an ASL quality tournament. They will never spend 2-3 months in a tournament that Korean fans are not interested in. To explain this, you need to know about Korean culture They don't just take part in tournaments for prize money. In fact, Rush recently reached RO16 with perfect performance. And he was congratulated by countless StarCraft fans and received 30000 star balloons in 2 hours. 30000 starballoon = $3000. All gamers are like this. The higher they advance, the more congratulations and money they receive from korean starcraft fans. If Korean fans aren't interested in the two or three month tournaments they take part in, the fans won't even know they've won the tournament. Tournaments that end in one day, such as Have At You, can participate. It's not just a big tournament, it's an online tournament, not offline. They can participate for prize money And I am correct about Flash and Bisu Actually, ASL's average number of viewers fluctuates greatly depending on whether Flash and Bisu participate. If you are planning the best tournaments of ASL quality, can you imagine them not participating? I didn't doubt the comments you made about the Korean SC1 culture. I just don't think they apply to that many of these guys, mostly from a financial perspective. Sure, I know that ASL performances are greatly appreciated by fans (I was watching Soma after his big ASL run and he got swamped in donations that time) but how frequent of an event is this for non-legend status active players? I doubt that much since ASL basically runs twice every year. Would Shinee pass on the opportunity to play in a tournament where he has a realistic chance to get 1st for let's say 5K? I would be surprised if that is the case. I mentioned him because I think he's a guy that's clearly head and shoulders in skill above any foreigner and he doesn't seem to be popular on Afreeca. You said "a decent prize pool" and now are saying $5k? who's running tournaments that are open to anyone for $5k? Decent is a relative term in league with a reality of the current state of things. $5k is not decent, its an amazing prizepool. Unless it's for a 2-3 months tournament, then while $5k is great for the winner, i figure most players would rather stream more. Tried to frame it in the context of this thread (although I still think the OP and his desire/availability to put that kind of money on the line is bogus). Also I doubt the excuse made for Flash and Bisu to skip all the KSLs is anything but just a financial decision rather than anything else. Whatever 25K up top was available for KSL was just not enough incentive for Flash and his partnership with Afreeca (and whatever side-deal they have). In the case of Bisu I think it was similar (getting swamped in donations after just coming back) and him being out of shape (so as opposed to Flash, who would be heavily favorite to get all the money). So if they can net more money over the course of those 2-3 months why bother with that tournament since they can easily make more doing something else. Yes, but they can make more stable money doing something else which is: stream to koreans. The point being made by Cruiser/CM is that Koreans see more value in streaming, than for a chance at money, since streaming is so pivotal to them making money outside of winning. Even the low viewer count ones make decent money. Therefore, if a tournament has no korean presence and is a long time investment, they will not participate because they need to maintain a schedule/viewerbase with koreans to keep making money at all. Even if it looks like good money to us, it's risky to bank on that over consistent viewer basis. Source: i know many twitch broadcasters who have the same logic for playing in/going-to tournaments or not
Sounds like it's kind of like going on Shark Tank.
The motivation for going on that show actually isn't to get seed funding -- it's to get your consumer product in front of millions of eyeballs during prime time TV for free.
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EPT
