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On March 25 2020 21:27 Kaolla wrote:Man you guys all give Stork a lot of credit with these predictions. He was lucky he had 2 relatively easy groups and made it this far, there is really no way he will beat Light, although I wouldn't mind seeing him win 
Pretty much this. I dont consider him death meat against Light though, but he clearly isnt the favorite here. Stork winning would be amazing, but it also would be an upset.
Same goes with beesoo. If he wins Soma, it will definately be an upset, regardless of his legend status.
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On March 25 2020 23:00 TornadoSteve wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2020 21:27 Kaolla wrote:Man you guys all give Stork a lot of credit with these predictions. He was lucky he had 2 relatively easy groups and made it this far, there is really no way he will beat Light, although I wouldn't mind seeing him win Pretty much this. I dont consider him death meat against Light though, but he clearly isnt the favorite here. Stork winning would be amazing, but it also would be an upset. Same goes with beesoo. If he wins Soma, it will definately be an upset, regardless of his legend status.
Even as a bisu fan, I would have to agree he is facing an uphill battle and would have to get his skills up to par quickly.
And while Stork should technically be the dog vs Light, saying he doesn't stand a chance ignores Stork's experience and inherent volatility of the matchup (which is a nice way of saying that P has a lot of ways to make T's life miserable).
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TLADT24920 Posts
On March 25 2020 16:40 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2020 14:03 BigFan wrote:On March 25 2020 13:28 RKC wrote:On March 25 2020 06:16 BigFan wrote:
Then we got that game vs Best on hitchhiker. Strat was nice enough and at one point, he actually had the zealot+shieldbattery advantage but instead he completely floundered and Best won the game. I'm not sure how anyone can see that and not facepalm lol. Was it actually a legit strat? Building the two gates right in Best's expo with a high chance of being scouted, and the shield bat coming later than Best? Whilst his initial micro scored some early advantages, does the strat only work for a player with superior micro than the opponent? Quite ballsy of Bisu. Is his 3-gate build in G3 a semi-allin strat? If so, even more ballsy! I don't agree with how he placed the gates, but it's a legit strat as far as I know. Granted, he cut his eco to get the gates up so Best had better eco. I was mostly commenting when he had the 2 batteries up, up 2 zealots and he decided to run 2 around to the minerals or he pulled back or something. Maybe I missed something, but I would've at least pounced on Best's sb or tried to kill another zealot before 2 more popped for Best if I was in his position. Then he could just snowballed it slowly with micro, but Best if I recall properly outmicroed him with Best having something like 5 zealots to 1/2 of Bisu at the end. He was in a hurry to finish the series and go home to sleep lol. As for G3, well, Best went for the same build but with his last 2 gates being a bit delayed so Bisu got the advantage. I dunno if you can call it a semi-allin since you can still expand behind it, but obviously going for less gates and an earlier exp is better. Hopefully someone more knowledgable can provide an answer  I can't see that strat really working in a situation like that, his advantage was minimal at all stages (maybe 1 low health zealot more?), I assume Best had the better eco and could just pull some probes to help defend, while Bisu would eventually have to sacrifice the 2 gates and pylon as well if he couldn't finish the game quick. I mean even if he had not walked his zealots down, I doubt it would've made much of a difference. Although the fight would have been a lot closer and Bisu might even have come out on top pure zealot-zealot, I don't think there was ever a realistic chance he could beat zealots reinforced with probes. Also I don't think pouncing on the sb would've done much either, an empty shield battery doesn't provide all that much value and that would've just been a waste of his time. He needed to do critical dmg, which I think was just impossible there.
from what I recall, he had 4 zealots to the 2 of BeSt though granted, I don't know what their hp was like. Sure, killing the sb isn't important, but in that situation, it's best that he slowly carves himself out a bigger zealot advantage. He also had 2 sbs though granted, I don't know how much energy they had. Instead, he ran some around and gave BeSt time for his 2 zealots+more to pop out. I'm not saying it was a guaranteed win, but his chances of winning would've been higher.
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United States4883 Posts
On March 26 2020 00:36 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2020 23:00 TornadoSteve wrote:On March 25 2020 21:27 Kaolla wrote:Man you guys all give Stork a lot of credit with these predictions. He was lucky he had 2 relatively easy groups and made it this far, there is really no way he will beat Light, although I wouldn't mind seeing him win Pretty much this. I dont consider him death meat against Light though, but he clearly isnt the favorite here. Stork winning would be amazing, but it also would be an upset. Same goes with beesoo. If he wins Soma, it will definately be an upset, regardless of his legend status. Even as a bisu fan, I would have to agree he is facing an uphill battle and would have to get his skills up to par quickly. And while Stork should technically be the dog vs Light, saying he doesn't stand a chance ignores Stork's experience and inherent volatility of the matchup (which is a nice way of saying that P has a lot of ways to make T's life miserable).
Considering Stork's storm-heavy style and Light's fairly weak TvP, I'd say Stork actually has the edge.
I think you guys are giving Light way too much credit. He won the KSL4 against a Protoss player who didn't even practice seriously for the finals. And while he's been playing pretty well overall in ASL9, he did drop a series to Brain. TvP is his weakness, and if anyone is well-equipped to take him on in the matchup, it's Stork.
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On March 25 2020 20:46 Brainojack wrote:
After bisu held the zerglings i thought he was was ahead. Was he? I counted 20 probes to 15 drones after the engagement, he had his nexus down before the forge, their gas were nearly done at the same time...how much of an advantage was it at that point? (and was losing the shuttle how he lost it or his tech choices?)
He was indeed ahead. Zero played an insane catch-up game and recovered well but was still slightly behind when Bisu pushed. Losing the Shuttle immediately made the comeback possible imho.
On March 26 2020 01:07 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2020 00:36 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:On March 25 2020 23:00 TornadoSteve wrote:On March 25 2020 21:27 Kaolla wrote:Man you guys all give Stork a lot of credit with these predictions. He was lucky he had 2 relatively easy groups and made it this far, there is really no way he will beat Light, although I wouldn't mind seeing him win Pretty much this. I dont consider him death meat against Light though, but he clearly isnt the favorite here. Stork winning would be amazing, but it also would be an upset. Same goes with beesoo. If he wins Soma, it will definately be an upset, regardless of his legend status. Even as a bisu fan, I would have to agree he is facing an uphill battle and would have to get his skills up to par quickly. And while Stork should technically be the dog vs Light, saying he doesn't stand a chance ignores Stork's experience and inherent volatility of the matchup (which is a nice way of saying that P has a lot of ways to make T's life miserable). Considering Stork's storm-heavy style and Light's fairly weak TvP, I'd say Stork actually has the edge. I think you guys are giving Light way too much credit. He won the KSL4 against a Protoss player who didn't even practice seriously for the finals. And while he's been playing pretty well overall in ASL9, he did drop a series to Brain. TvP is his weakness, and if anyone is well-equipped to take him on in the matchup, it's Stork.
TvP may still be his weakness but he has worked on it quite a bit. Saying he lost against Rain who didn't really practice doesn't count for much I think because Rain hasn't been really practicing for quite a while and was still kicking asses left and right. At least the discrepancy between Light's TvP and his TvZ has shrunk. It's not like he is likely to lose against a B-Tier protoss while S-Tier Zergs struggle vs him.
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Losing the first shuttle made the comeback possible vs. Bisu, losing the shuttles after that gave Zero the advantage
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On March 26 2020 01:07 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2020 00:36 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:On March 25 2020 23:00 TornadoSteve wrote:On March 25 2020 21:27 Kaolla wrote:Man you guys all give Stork a lot of credit with these predictions. He was lucky he had 2 relatively easy groups and made it this far, there is really no way he will beat Light, although I wouldn't mind seeing him win Pretty much this. I dont consider him death meat against Light though, but he clearly isnt the favorite here. Stork winning would be amazing, but it also would be an upset. Same goes with beesoo. If he wins Soma, it will definately be an upset, regardless of his legend status. Even as a bisu fan, I would have to agree he is facing an uphill battle and would have to get his skills up to par quickly. And while Stork should technically be the dog vs Light, saying he doesn't stand a chance ignores Stork's experience and inherent volatility of the matchup (which is a nice way of saying that P has a lot of ways to make T's life miserable). Considering Stork's storm-heavy style and Light's fairly weak TvP, I'd say Stork actually has the edge. I think you guys are giving Light way too much credit. He won the KSL4 against a Protoss player who didn't even practice seriously for the finals. And while he's been playing pretty well overall in ASL9, he did drop a series to Brain. TvP is his weakness, and if anyone is well-equipped to take him on in the matchup, it's Stork.
Light doesn't have a weak TvP. It's the second strongest in the world atm. Stork is definitely an underdog. Watch Light in the past year. He's firmly a t5 player right now.
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Flash vs Soma will be the greatest ASL finals since ASL 6
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On March 26 2020 00:43 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2020 16:40 Kaolla wrote:On March 25 2020 14:03 BigFan wrote:On March 25 2020 13:28 RKC wrote:On March 25 2020 06:16 BigFan wrote:
Then we got that game vs Best on hitchhiker. Strat was nice enough and at one point, he actually had the zealot+shieldbattery advantage but instead he completely floundered and Best won the game. I'm not sure how anyone can see that and not facepalm lol. Was it actually a legit strat? Building the two gates right in Best's expo with a high chance of being scouted, and the shield bat coming later than Best? Whilst his initial micro scored some early advantages, does the strat only work for a player with superior micro than the opponent? Quite ballsy of Bisu. Is his 3-gate build in G3 a semi-allin strat? If so, even more ballsy! I don't agree with how he placed the gates, but it's a legit strat as far as I know. Granted, he cut his eco to get the gates up so Best had better eco. I was mostly commenting when he had the 2 batteries up, up 2 zealots and he decided to run 2 around to the minerals or he pulled back or something. Maybe I missed something, but I would've at least pounced on Best's sb or tried to kill another zealot before 2 more popped for Best if I was in his position. Then he could just snowballed it slowly with micro, but Best if I recall properly outmicroed him with Best having something like 5 zealots to 1/2 of Bisu at the end. He was in a hurry to finish the series and go home to sleep lol. As for G3, well, Best went for the same build but with his last 2 gates being a bit delayed so Bisu got the advantage. I dunno if you can call it a semi-allin since you can still expand behind it, but obviously going for less gates and an earlier exp is better. Hopefully someone more knowledgable can provide an answer I can't see that strat really working in a situation like that, his advantage was minimal at all stages (maybe 1 low health zealot more?), I assume Best had the better eco and could just pull some probes to help defend, while Bisu would eventually have to sacrifice the 2 gates and pylon as well if he couldn't finish the game quick. I mean even if he had not walked his zealots down, I doubt it would've made much of a difference. Although the fight would have been a lot closer and Bisu might even have come out on top pure zealot-zealot, I don't think there was ever a realistic chance he could beat zealots reinforced with probes. Also I don't think pouncing on the sb would've done much either, an empty shield battery doesn't provide all that much value and that would've just been a waste of his time. He needed to do critical dmg, which I think was just impossible there. from what I recall, he had 4 zealots to the 2 of BeSt though granted, I don't know what their hp was like. Sure, killing the sb isn't important, but in that situation, it's best that he slowly carves himself out a bigger zealot advantage. He also had 2 sbs though granted, I don't know how much energy they had. Instead, he ran some around and gave BeSt time for his 2 zealots+more to pop out. I'm not saying it was a guaranteed win, but his chances of winning would've been higher.
I didn't rly watch it back either, but 4 vs 2 makes it sound like a big difference while in reality bests zealots were a bit later, so they were probably just about to pop out and I felt maybe bisu had 1 zealot more but it was just low hp. I mean still useful for sure, but I just feel in a game like that the longer the game goes on the bigger the odds bisu loses. Best can just pull 5 additional probes and his eco would probably still be on par, while bisu pretty much loses the game the second his numbers advantage is gone. So yea, I feel he just needed to do some huge dmg, but wasn't able to because he just didn't have the numbers. Maybe i'm totally wrong though, but I feel there was pretty much nothing Bisu could have done to win that game (as a non-AI human player).
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Bisu v Zero: goon reaver push is legitimate, reavers are good on that map bc the Zerg third base is very close to the Zerg main as the Shuttle flies and very far as the Hydralisk walks. Once the reaver is inside the third base the ramp is brutal for hydras trying to defend. But Zero’s anticipation and execution were perfect and something went wrong with the first reaver push. After the first reaver push fails there is no good plan B, so Bisu could lose any way he wished. At least sticking with reaver aggression is a high-variance plan, so he could hope for a miracle.
Best v Shuttle: wow, a lot went wrong for Best early on (early probe doing the manner pylon got trapped, another early probe trapped soon after, DTs did nothing), but once the arbiter was out, Sharp’s third went down easily. Sharp must have been trying to stay covered against recall and skimped on covering his third.
Bisu v Sharp: G1 and G2 Bisu had trouble wielding a nearly maxed army. G1 especially painful. Best is better at it. But he is so strong in every other way that he scraped by. Sharp showed a lot of resilience, wits, and heart.
Zero v Best: yeesh, Zero’s a monster.
All these players are terrific so this really was a group of death.
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Russian Federation3339 Posts
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wow what a good series. so glad i can binge the ASL
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On March 25 2020 04:21 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2020 03:55 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
Bisu did fine today! He lost 1 BO1 and won 2 BO3s. His loss to Zero was strange, but i sense we are missing some history/mind games there. Zero(Queen) was amazing today, his zvp is so strong, its really really impressive. But Bisu played nice games with some mistakes here and there, but was he ever mistake-free? He was quite magical today and he is improving. Zero took a page out of by.Hero's book, which is one of the two Zergs to beat Bisu in a post-kespa finals. by.Hero popularized overpool openings for fast lings and the hydra fake attacks into 6 hatch play. This was Bisu's kryptonite back then and still is. The deceiving aggression forced both Bisu and BeSt into reaver defenses. Bisu's goon/shuttle reaver response was a rather poor one as it not only gambled on not catching scourge hits, but eliminated any possibility of a third or templar tech if the first attack failed. Goons are also historically bad pre-lurker and it was reinforced in that game.
There you go, i was thinking the same! The reaver tech did seem to be a defensive knee-jerk reaction to what seemed to be an aggression, which Zero sold so perfectly! Thanks for this extra bit!
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Russian Federation121 Posts
Seem like Bisu vs Flash finals... I do not see Bisu lose to Soma or stork/light. HYPE
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On March 26 2020 20:30 MisterBoba wrote:
Seem like Bisu vs Flash finals... I do not see Bisu lose to Soma or stork/light. HYPE
I do not see him winning any of those guys in a BO5
interesting!
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Bulgaria750 Posts
Light is 0-3 to Stork in sponmatches in March. But his win rate against him in 2020 is 9-4 and he has positive or at least even win rates against most top Protoss except Snow and Brain. I'd say at least online his TvP is pretty good. This one is in the balance, for me at least. None of the other matchups are as lopsided as Flash/Action, but I consider this the closest one.
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The closest one in all 4 remains the z:z because it is a z:z , even tho larva's got a significant edge in the match up, it is almost a coin flip id say.
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On March 26 2020 12:36 Bisu-Fan wrote:
hi friends
i am happy
My feelings also. Such a relief that he made it out.
He hasn't looked as crisp in ASL so far. But hope he can go god mode vs Soma.
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Quite sad that we lost Soulkey to the ZvZ menace this tournament, and have a good chance of losing Zero to it as well. Most of the creative and intellectually stimulating Zergs are weakest at that matchup.
Also, anyone else feel a bit uneasy when Artosis kept referring to Bisu as "the greatest Protoss ever"? This is certainly not a closed deal; there are fair arguments to be wielded for Stork, JangBi, and Rain (and possibly Nal_rA and Reach as well).
I can understand that Bisu's highly refined, interactive, and proactive style tends to appeal to people more than Stork or Rain's reactive flow charting or JangBi's brute mechanical force, but it's difficult to get around the fact that Bisu's results simply do not make him the clear-cut best Protoss ever in the way that Flash and NaDa tower over the other Terrans, or Jaedong over the other Zergs. There were long stretches in the middle of what should have been his prime where he simply vanished without a trace.
The creativity/meta influence argument that might be in Bisu's favor merits some attention. However, a) Bisu's accomplishments in advancing the Protoss meta are largely limited to one matchup (Artosis' assertion that Bisu is the greatest PvP player ever is so silly even without context that it is not even worth picking apart, and given that Best may be the greatest or second greatest PvP player ever (along with Rain) makes it even more absurd of a statement) and b) they are dwarfed by, say, iloveoov's influence on Terran standard play in all matchups, or Savior's on Zerg standard play in ZvT and ZvP.
I can understand the Bisu love. His play at its best drips with artistry and flair. His FPVODs are works of art on a higher level than anyone else's except possibly Savoir's, and his screen switching is almost certainly the best the game has ever seen. However, it is simply unfounded that he is clearly the most accomplished Protoss ever. Is his skill level the highest in a vacuum? In some respects yes, in some respects JangBi (eAPM and micro) and Best (macro and timings) have him beat. If you value peak performance well above consistency, then yes, he or JangBi might be the greatest. If you value peak and consistency relatively equally, then it's probably Stork. If you weight consistency the highest, then Stork is the only option.
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Russian Federation121 Posts
On March 26 2020 23:13 TornadoSteve wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2020 20:30 MisterBoba wrote:
Seem like Bisu vs Flash finals... I do not see Bisu lose to Soma or stork/light. HYPE I do not see him winning any of those guys in a BO5 interesting!
Against Soma/Light or Flash? I think Bisu beat soma easy and maybe Light give trouble but yes if Flash vs Bisu, Flash win all. I think.
Nothing to do with balance just predict )
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EPT
