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FakeFin
Germany392 Posts
On March 28 2020 07:27 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: As a thought experiment, who is currently the best Terran, Zerg and Protoss who have never played in Kespa? My guess would be  Scan or BishOp,  Soma and  Brain | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51713 Posts
On March 28 2020 08:57 PVJ wrote: Okay third and last, this is the most subjective differentiation between the two but Bisu -- Griffith Stork -- Guts much like berserk, this story won't end anytime soon | ||
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Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
On March 28 2020 08:56 PVJ wrote: Oh and just one more small personal note, it is always forgotten but I think might be just as important (at least w/r/t our human condition) that Federer or Stork can be arguably the best of all time not in spite of but exactly for losing that many games too. When someone doesn't just win the most but also loses the most to me that makes someone the most complete representation or manifestation of the greatest exerciser of any endeavour. It goes without saying that if someone wins more out of those final battles the better but of course being 100% in finals either by a) being utterly dominant then tightly wrapped and tossed in sandstorm can also lead you down Savior's path or b) finding niche, an opening, exploiting that to arrive in finals once then win it and once you've been read you're out doesn't necessarily mean you'll be catapulted to #1 either. It's all very likeable to me that discussions and different narratives (and then added counterpunct data which takes the fantasy away but it is narrative itself just as much) like these are at least possible with Protoss. Very similar to Cy Young who holds the record for most losses in baseball, but he also has the most wins and has the yearly award for best pitcher named after himself | ||
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VioleTAK
4411 Posts
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darktreb
United States3019 Posts
I think it’s perfectly fine to default to saying Bisu is the greatest Protoss of all time. It’s not as clear cut as the other races, but the burden of proof to argue any other P is the greatest is much higher than it is for Bisu (and we can break this down objectively, subjectively, both, as others have done in this thread). There is no formula for a subjective concept such as “who is the greatest”. Having many ways to look at it is what makes it fun. I’ll add a few more ways to look at it: 1) The biggest knocks against Bisu are lack of OSL success, and being slightly lacking at PvT. Only the OSL stuff is a valid critique in my opinion. Bisu’s PvT is frustrating because it doesn’t make sense that someone that talented should have trouble with the easiest Protoss matchup. And his peak PvT ELO was still only 5 points below Jangbi, even though they played in the same era (meaning they had the same ELO inflation effects). Even without the OSL success, Bisu still has the most individual league titles for Protoss, the best overall Proleague track record, and so on. 1a) Bisu’s far and away the greatest PvZ player ever, and probably the best PvP ever. Yeah, we have Rain from this new era, but given that Jangbi doesn’t even play in the new era, I don’t think Bisu’s should lose too many “best PvP” points for this. That’s 2 out of 3 matchups, or 1.5 out of 3 if you only want to give him half credit for PvP. Still, that’s a helluva starting point considering his PvT wasn’t bad, just relatively disappointing due to the high expectations for his talent. 2) One way to look at greatest is, “how big of a deal is it when someone loses?”. For instance, Flash’s legacy may be best summarized by how big of a story it was whenever he lost. Since October 2009, every single time Flash lost (in BW) was a huge story. Like literally all of them. Even Proleague losses were generally a big deal — notice his opponent was never like “yep, I won”. It was always “phew, wow, I did it, I really did it”. And the teammates of his opponent would always be like “whooooa yeah amazing work man! I knew you prepared well but I didn’t really think you’d win, congrats man!”. The same applied to Jaedong for a long time (much of 2009 and 2010, and arguably as early as 2007 to 2008). 2a) It was usually still a big deal when Bisu lost (even if you started to grow to expect it in the individual leagues). As great as Stork is, I never thought it was a big deal when Stork lost, not even in PvT, his best matchup. It was especially never a big deal when Stork lost a PvZ. You’d never bet your life on Stork winning a PvZ against anyone (even though he was quite solid at the matchup). 2b) As for Jangbi, talk about evidence that how you finish matters more than your body of work. Jangbi may have been the most talented Protoss ever, but he was terrible for stretches of time. There were whole years when you would be more surprised he won than he lost. He didn’t even play that much because he was struggling so much. I don’t think that should be wiped away for two OSL hot streaks, one of which came when non-seeded players were probably preparing for SC2 as much as a BW individual league. 2c) Shouldn’t it count for something that Bisu beat Jangbi in a finals, when both were in their primes? Jangbi’s OSL runs were a second prime for him, I suppose, but it was a different era with far less BW games being played and players’ attention being split toward worrying about switching to SC2. It was a bit of a bastardized time, sadly. 3) Impressiveness is subjective, but it’s hard to argue that any Protoss has done anything nearly as impressive as what Bisu did in PvZ. And his win over Savior, while “just one series”, is probably the most shocking and impressive win in BW history. Subjectively, if Jangbi gets his last second OSLs to rewrite his story (before those OSLs he may have been in the running for “biggest talent to results gap in BW history”), the beginning of Bisu’s story should also get similar weight. In spite of the things I said about him here, I do think Stork is a bit underrated overall. I still think Stork is below Bisu overall, but the strongest argument for someone other than Bisu comes from Stork (and if Stork researches Dragoon Range in Game 5 of that MSL final against Bisu’s, maybe that alone would have been enough to tip the scales). But Jangbi ... gets way too many bonus points for having lots of talent and the OSLs that wiped away literally years of being a below average player in peoples’ memories. | ||
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Ideas
United States8182 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
But remember that the eclipse of BW by SC2 damaged Jangbi’s chances of having that title more than it damaged Bisu’s. Jangbi was getting unbelievable results right then and Bisu wasn’t. Obviously you can’t guess with any confidence what exactly Jangbi would have done with another several individual leagues, but as a matter of probabilities, I expect he’d have narrowed his distance behind Bisu. We’ll never know that his best years weren’t ahead of him. This point is not invalidated by the fact that he failed to make a big impact in the post-KeSPA scene, as at that point, reaching peak skill again is a huge mountain to climb and there are many reasons why someone might want to do something else with their life. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19399 Posts
On March 29 2020 12:07 Djabanete wrote: I don’t have a problem with calling Bisu the greatest Protoss ever. But remember that the eclipse of BW by SC2 damaged Jangbi’s chances of having that title more than it damaged Bisu’s. Jangbi was getting unbelievable results right then and Bisu wasn’t. Obviously you can’t guess with any confidence what exactly Jangbi would have done with another several individual leagues, but as a matter of probabilities, I expect he’d have narrowed his distance behind Bisu. We’ll never know that his best years weren’t ahead of him. This point is not invalidated by the fact that he failed to make a big impact in the post-KeSPA scene, as at that point, reaching peak skill again is a huge mountain to climb and there are many reasons why someone might want to do something else with their life. Jangbi's final two years: * Was allowed to focus on preparing for individual league matches * Played against opponents who were told to practice SC2 so they were in a weaker state then normal * Avoided Flash who never lost a boX TvP for a decade until Snow in the ASL * Went 23-9 (71% winrate) in his two year run Bisu's final two years: * Was made to focus on team leagues with immense presssue " Was made to practice and play SC2 matches * Defeated Flash in the last true proleague Finals * Held the most proleague wins record for 3 years (or was close) including the 2010-2011 season where he won 87.80% of his games going 36-5 and 10-0 in PvT Obviously individual league championships are rated higher then proleague wins+championships, but while Jangbi was doing something special in the OSL, it completely overshadowed the ridiculus success Bisu was having. | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
Meanwhile, their best Zerg was Soo. el oh el. This made SKT a team that continually underperformed its raw talent. It's just an unbalanced, poorly constructed team in a Proleague setting. Proleague is all about sniping, via race and maps. If you don't have balanced racial distribution, you can't snipe maps properly. Bisu carried the team for sure and played in a lot of adverse conditions. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4203 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4203 Posts
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Miragee
8716 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4203 Posts
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darktreb
United States3019 Posts
On March 29 2020 15:27 BisuDagger wrote: Jangbi's final two years: * Was allowed to focus on preparing for individual league matches * Played against opponents who were told to practice SC2 so they were in a weaker state then normal * Avoided Flash who never lost a boX TvP for a decade until Snow in the ASL * Went 23-9 (71% winrate) in his two year run Bisu's final two years: * Was made to focus on team leagues with immense presssue " Was made to practice and play SC2 matches * Defeated Flash in the last true proleague Finals * Held the most proleague wins record for 3 years (or was close) including the 2010-2011 season where he won 87.80% of his games going 36-5 and 10-0 in PvT Obviously individual league championships are rated higher then proleague wins+championships, but while Jangbi was doing something special in the OSL, it completely overshadowed the ridiculus success Bisu was having. In fairness, Jangbi did beat Flash in the RO8 (2-1, not a BO5) on his way to his first OSL title. That was the first moment in years that it seemed like he had rediscovered some of his old magic. He was probably the only Protoss in the world capable of winning game 2 on Pathfinder the way he did -- beating Flash's 200/200 push in a straight up fight. That's what made Jangbi so exciting and disappointing. He could win fights no one else could, and had all the other skills needed to be the best. He just didn't put it together that often. Your overall point stands. Obviously I agree with it given my prior comments. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Ultimately individual leagues are the main criterion by which “greatest player” is measured. The rest is tiebreakers. I appreciate your showcasing some of Bisu’s achievements during the time when Jangbi’s star was high in the sky — and I sure remember Bisu’s last ace match against Flash — but nobody can say that Jangbi wasn’t gaining ground on Bisu by winning back-to-back OSLs while Bisu was doing other stuff. Jangbi was behind Bisu but gaining (in this artificial contest of “greatest player”) when BW was disrupted, and nobody has a crystal ball to know whether, and by how much, that gap would have closed. Each OSL is a huge deal on a player’s resume. Think of how much greater Bisu’s reputation would be if he had happened to just pick up those two OSL wins with a 2-0 against Flash along the way. It’s not a small deal. (Edit: it was 2-1? Off the top of my head I recall 2-0, but I’m happy to be corrected.) To reiterate, BisuDagger, I’ve got no problem calling Bisu the greatest Protoss ever. Cheers ;-) | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19399 Posts
On March 30 2020 05:23 Djabanete wrote: Yeah, I was gonna say, he beat Flash in one of those OSLs. Flash had some arm stuff going on (although he was gracious enough to say it had no impact on the match), but you can’t say Jangbi didn’t beat him. Ultimately individual leagues are the main criterion by which “greatest player” is measured. The rest is tiebreakers. I appreciate your showcasing some of Bisu’s achievements during the time when Jangbi’s star was high in the sky — and I sure remember Bisu’s last ace match against Flash — but nobody can say that Jangbi wasn’t gaining ground on Bisu by winning back-to-back OSLs while Bisu was doing other stuff. Jangbi was behind Bisu but gaining (in this artificial contest of “greatest player”) when BW was disrupted, and nobody has a crystal ball to know whether, and by how much, that gap would have closed. Each OSL is a huge deal on a player’s resume. Think of how much greater Bisu’s reputation would be if he had happened to just pick up those two OSL wins with a 2-0 against Flash along the way. It’s not a small deal. (Edit: it was 2-1? Off the top of my head I recall 2-0, but I’m happy to be corrected.) To reiterate, BisuDagger, I’ve got no problem calling Bisu the greatest Protoss ever. Cheers ;-) Totally forgot he played Flash. Thanks for catching that! | ||
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