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On August 09 2019 03:17 Jaeyun wrote:
The pool is certainly smaller so there's that, but there is absolutely no denying that the top players today are far more skilled than that of the past simply because Starcraft is a game that builds on itself.
If that's your thesis... it's pretty weak as far as theses go.
A game that builds on itself? Unpack what that actually means.
It's fairly simple: pros put more focused time in the game back in KeSPA than they do now. That and the players are simply less talented.
Even take a guy like Best. Look at his Kespa stats/ranking. Many of his peers are now gone--Bogus, Stats, Kal, so on. Yet he's not doing any better. I don't think he's more skilled now than before. If he was the same level player, he should be a dominant Protoss.
Some have improved. But take someone like Action. He and Stats were KT's 2nd and 3rd best players. Action has less competition now; he was an average or slightly above average player back in the day. Now he's a top Zerg. I mean, yeesh, who are the ten best Zergs/Terrans/Tosses now? Compared to ten years ago? It gets real ugly quick after the t5 in 2019.
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Northern Ireland26953 Posts
To an outside pleb it seems the gates are open to strategic innovation and understanding in a way that wasn’t the case in the Kespa era with in-house practice and pre streaming in the way we have now. When BJs are streaming constantly for their crust rather than being salaried it’s hard to hide things.
On the other hand on a pure execution level there’s much more sloppiness than there used to be.
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i think hero explained it well enough in his tl interview 2 years ago
16) Some fans worry that without the support of the fully sponsored pro teams of the KeSPA era, today's aspiring pro Brood War players will never be able to reach the level of the current generation of top players. Do you think these concerns are justified?
hero: Well ... I think I might think that way. But now the star version has a different feeling. When I was in the old association, I saw that the teams were divided and there was not much interaction between them. Nowadays, everyone seems to be getting better by sharing solutions.
Of course, the amount of practice is not as great as before, but now it's enough to compete and try to win. I think it is almost similar to the highest level. The good thing about living in a professional team is that you will be able to practice enough, but I think that the conceptual part will fall.
17) With the return of a lot more BW players, the skill level has risen greatly and some players have went on record to say that they perform better than during the kespa days. Do you believe that the skill level has increased that much despite the lack of teams, practice partners and coaches? Please elaborate.
hero: During the KeSPA days, the concept seemed to be lacking. In my case, I faced protoss mainly on the team, and I could not face much terran and zerg.
These days, it seems that it will not be enough to just be good at BW. So, I think that the lack of things will gradually get better through practice. It is also helpful to learn the concept while watching the first person view of a good gamer. It is a lot different from the KeSPA days.
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On August 09 2019 11:55 KamMoye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 03:17 Jaeyun wrote:
The pool is certainly smaller so there's that, but there is absolutely no denying that the top players today are far more skilled than that of the past simply because Starcraft is a game that builds on itself. If that's your thesis... it's pretty weak as far as theses go. A game that builds on itself? Unpack what that actually means. 1 It's fairly simple: pros put more focused time in the game back in KeSPA than they do now. 2 That and the players are simply less talented. 3 Even take a guy like Best. Look at his Kespa stats/ranking. Many of his peers are now gone--Bogus, Stats, Kal, so on. Yet he's not doing any better. I don't think he's more skilled now than before. If he was the same level player, he should be a dominant Protoss. Some have improved. But take someone like Action. He and Stats were KT's 2nd and 3rd best players. 4 Action has less competition now; he was an average or slightly above average player back in the day. Now he's a top Zerg. 5 I mean, yeesh, who are the ten best Zergs/Terrans/Tosses now? Compared to ten years ago? It gets real ugly quick after the t5 in 2019.
1 - Generally agree. Although I suspect some of the top players spend more time than they did during Kespa (off stream practicing/replay/map analysis).
2 - This is an arbitrary statement. Do you mean they are generally older, and thus slower? Maybe less talented mechanically. Strategically they are more advanced though as has been discussed.
3 - So since other Protosses left the scene, Best should be a top P? Perhaps he hasn't been working as hard as everyone else.
4 - Less competition now? Based on what. New blood fills the gaps anytime players leave. Maybe Action works harder than other zergs.
5 - I'm not sure what you mean here. Is the top 10 player list supposed to look the same today as it did Kespa era? I would agree that the scene is probably more top heavy, though, if that's what you mean.
I can't speak for Jaeyun, but I suspect what he's getting at is this - as the game goes on, the optimal reactions get more and more agreed upon and optimized.
A small example to express this - how many zergs did you see trying to take down scouting scv/probe with a drone to maximize drone count during Kespa era? And now, if you watch this ASL, how many are doing it?
A higher % of the players understand the optimal reactions to each situation now.
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On August 09 2019 13:15 fearthequeen wrote:
2 - This is an arbitrary statement. Do you mean they are generally older, and thus slower? Maybe less talented mechanically. Strategically they are more advanced though as has been discussed.
Discussed isn't proven. Strategy may be more advanced but tactics certainly aren't.
It's not arbitrary. It's factual. The talent pool has shrunk. Therefore there is less talent. Therefore there is less competition--steel sharpens steel. If you or anyone can't agree with this, so be it; no point in repeating the same points over and over.
The rest of your post was just more of the same. I mean, I get it--a lot of people are super invested into believing what they're experiencing now is the best. That's also human nature. I just don't think it's remotely true, having lived through both.
You've got Flash. Who has no competition. And that's the only God-type player. We went from TBLS, with numerous sub-contenders, to... Flash, who isn't remotely challenged in individual leagues anymore, and... who? Soulkey? Last?
There isn't even a player as good as Fantasy in the current scene, aside from Flash. Rain is about even imo.
On August 09 2019 12:21 ggsimida wrote:i think hero explained it well enough in his tl interview 2 years ago Show nested quote + 16) Some fans worry that without the support of the fully sponsored pro teams of the KeSPA era, today's aspiring pro Brood War players will never be able to reach the level of the current generation of top players. Do you think these concerns are justified?
hero: Well ... I think I might think that way. But now the star version has a different feeling. When I was in the old association, I saw that the teams were divided and there was not much interaction between them. Nowadays, everyone seems to be getting better by sharing solutions.
Of course, the amount of practice is not as great as before, but now it's enough to compete and try to win. I think it is almost similar to the highest level. The good thing about living in a professional team is that you will be able to practice enough, but I think that the conceptual part will fall.
17) With the return of a lot more BW players, the skill level has risen greatly and some players have went on record to say that they perform better than during the kespa days. Do you believe that the skill level has increased that much despite the lack of teams, practice partners and coaches? Please elaborate.
hero: During the KeSPA days, the concept seemed to be lacking. In my case, I faced protoss mainly on the team, and I could not face much terran and zerg.
These days, it seems that it will not be enough to just be good at BW. So, I think that the lack of things will gradually get better through practice. It is also helpful to learn the concept while watching the first person view of a good gamer. It is a lot different from the KeSPA days.
"Everyone seems to be getting better by sharing solutions."
I challenge this. Humans are cliquey by nature. I am extremely skeptical there's an open source environment in Brood War--not enough to make up from the skill atrophy from...
"... the amount of practice is not as great as before..."
Some numbers would be nice. We used to hear of pros practicing 8-12 hours a day. Now I hear a lot more of pros streaming everything but BW.
There's something to be said for theorycrafting--quite a bit, honestly--but overall, practice, practice, practice is the name of the game. There's just no adequate replacement for practice.
Also: the Kespa days had an ecosystem--coach, B-steamers, starters, A-listers. So I'm calling BS on the concepts being stronger now. Back in the days you had Kwanro, Shine, Calm, Mind, Fantasy, Kal--a lot of extremely strong, creative players. You had more creativity because there were snipers; someone could have a career just sniping vP or vT. That specialization enhanced execution and it actually led to more exciting games and upsets.
Nowadays the ecosystem is gone and its personalized, monetized through streaming, cult of personality and sponsored matches.
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It's hard to have a discussion with someone who only responds to a small piece of the argument, and twists my words on the parts you did respond to.
I'm not invested in believing that BW level overall right now is "the best." Just wanted to have a logical discussion on Kespa era vs BW today.
If you think "...the players are simply less talented" is not an arbitrary statement, please quantify how you came to this conclusion.
At a certain point this just becomes a Michael Jordan vs LeBron James argument. Apples to oranges.
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I didn't twist anything you said. Show your work.
Youre doing exactly what you're accusing me of, though. I mean, either respond or don't. Saying, "I'm too good to respond" is a self-protective measure for your ego. (I wrote this before you edited in your last sentence, which further emphasizes my point. So which is it, you're too good to respond or you're responding?)
Worth noting Flash is gone after ASL.
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Top level players telling you that the game is more strategically evolved isn't good enough?
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Appeal to authority is not proof of anything, no. And a top level player... who's not even in the scene for the next 1.5 years. How does that help your case again?
So where did I twist what you said? Are you just throwing whatever at the wall to see what sticks? Make up your mind.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On August 09 2019 07:22 Cryoc wrote:
Action has a 5-10 record in ZvP in ASL compared to his now 9-3 record in ZvT, so ZvP is hardly his best matchup in offline leagues. I hope he wins vs Snow, but that doesn't seem too likely.
He beat Mini 3-0 in KSL3 when Mini was tearing zerg left and right. Mini got back at him in a rematch, but still, a 3-0 isn't anything to scoff at even considering Mini's instability.
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I would also argue from a historical standpoint. In the KESPA-era, there is only very few players that were relevant at the very top (let's say top15) for more than 4, max 5 years. They were simply overthrown by younger, more hungry players, that build on the foundation that was already there.
The KESPA-era is over since approximately ~8 years. And yet you still see the same names. And to add on that, it is mostly 2nd tier players that are the top dogs now (obviously not talking about Soulkey, Effort or Flash here). No real new talent breaks through, Larva being the only exception (and he cannot win a tournament because he is not good enough).
To paraphrase Day[9] in one of the videos in his youtube series: Strategy and understanding of the game is very important, but nothing beats execution in BroodWar. There is simply too much stuff to do.
The best example of this is Jaedong: while being a fantastic player in all aspects of the game, what made him the best was his flawless execution. With age, motivational loss and possibly wrist issues (basically every pro-player has these issues from what I can tell), he cannot play to his strengths anymore and a lot of his games just look terrible as a result of it.
And to push this one step further: If execution is not on the highest level, it is hard to tell if the emerging strategies are really superior.
edit: for completeness sake: BisuDagger's point on the last page in regard to the maps is also very interesting, I have to think more about this.
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After watching this match, I'm afraid Action will have the same role next season as Horang2 had this season: The one whose group everyone wants to get in, and the only seed to miss the Ro.8. His performance was a huge contrast to Snow's victory vs Last.
If Action in any way gives Snow a run for his money in the semi final, it will really show how important matchup is compared to general skill.
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On August 09 2019 20:24 JackyVSO wrote:
After watching this match, I'm afraid Action will have the same role next season as Horang2 had this season: The one whose group everyone wants to get in, and the only seed to miss the Ro.8. His performance was a huge contrast to Snow's victory vs Last.
If Action in any way gives Snow a run for his money in the semi final, it will really show how important matchup is compared to general skill.
Speechless. This is so wrong on so many levels I dont even know where to start.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, Action is probably the #1 zerg in the world right now. He had a bad day, like everyone does, and still manage to advance to RO4. Oh and by the way, he is probably favorite over Snow in the RO4.
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On August 09 2019 21:00 TornadoSteve wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 20:24 JackyVSO wrote:
After watching this match, I'm afraid Action will have the same role next season as Horang2 had this season: The one whose group everyone wants to get in, and the only seed to miss the Ro.8. His performance was a huge contrast to Snow's victory vs Last.
If Action in any way gives Snow a run for his money in the semi final, it will really show how important matchup is compared to general skill. Speechless. This is so wrong on so many levels I dont even know where to start. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, Action is probably the #1 zerg in the world right now. He had a bad day, like everyone does, and still manage to advance to RO4. Oh and by the way, he is probably favorite over Snow in the RO4.
damn u so right.effort hero and now sk in military 
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Bisutopia19365 Posts
On August 09 2019 22:48 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 21:00 TornadoSteve wrote:On August 09 2019 20:24 JackyVSO wrote:
After watching this match, I'm afraid Action will have the same role next season as Horang2 had this season: The one whose group everyone wants to get in, and the only seed to miss the Ro.8. His performance was a huge contrast to Snow's victory vs Last.
If Action in any way gives Snow a run for his money in the semi final, it will really show how important matchup is compared to general skill. Speechless. This is so wrong on so many levels I dont even know where to start. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, Action is probably the #1 zerg in the world right now. He had a bad day, like everyone does, and still manage to advance to RO4. Oh and by the way, he is probably favorite over Snow in the RO4. damn u so right.effort hero and now sk in military
Yeah, that's crazy isn't it. Yet somehow we have two zergs still in the round of 8. Even if effort, hero, and sk were still in the scene I'd say Action and Horang2 are still incomparable. Horang2 is a pretty mediocre Protoss player and hasn't really done anything impressive the way Action has. I'd put him on the third tier of protoss with Guemchi and Jaehoon. None one is as bad as Pure though and he steadily holds the Protoss floor.
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Horang2 opens the whole tech tree, sim city a sexy 2 bases protoss then start to think where to suicide his shuttle.
Guemchi is way better imo and with more practice he would probably be in the top tier.
Always been a fan of iammang tho so i might be biased
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Bisutopia19365 Posts
On August 09 2019 23:33 TornadoSteve wrote:
Horang2 opens the whole tech tree, sim city a sexy 2 bases protoss then start to think where to suicide his shuttle.
Guemchi is way better imo and with more practice he would probably be in the top tier.
Always been a fan of iammang tho so i might be biased
Haha fair. He was quite good two years ago. He probably is ahead of Horang2, but still tier two. If anything we can demote Horang2 and Jaehoon to tier 3. I think Snow, Mini, Rain, and BeSt have been consistent enough to earn top tier.
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On August 09 2019 07:50 fearthequeen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2019 07:22 Cryoc wrote:
Action has a 5-10 record in ZvP in ASL compared to his now 9-3 record in ZvT, so ZvP is hardly his best matchup in offline leagues. I hope he wins vs Snow, but that doesn't seem too likely. Good point. Where did you find these stats?
At the start of the ASL match they always show the stats for each player that's where I got it from. Action was 6-1 in ZvT before this bo5.
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On August 09 2019 11:55 KamMoye wrote:
If that's your thesis... it's pretty weak as far as theses go.
A game that builds on itself? Unpack what that actually means.
It's fairly simple: pros put more focused time in the game back in KeSPA than they do now. That and the players are simply less talented.
Even take a guy like Best. Look at his Kespa stats/ranking. Many of his peers are now gone--Bogus, Stats, Kal, so on. Yet he's not doing any better. I don't think he's more skilled now than before. If he was the same level player, he should be a dominant Protoss.
What do you mean this is a weak thesis..? I can't quite tell if you're serious - this is literally what makes Starcraft what it is. Skill in Starcraft is largely defined by a combination of mechanics and knowledge. You seem to be placing so much equity into sheer practice hours, and not enough in the knowledge component of the game. If you watched the game throughout the years, you see that strategies developed as a result of optimization, and a response to players over time pushing their boundaries to what they thought was possible.
If you want me to challenge your simple statement that more focused time equates into higher skill, let's take a walk back in history, say, in TvZ.
You know a long time ago, top Z's used to spend all their time going 9 pool into 1 base lurker. This was TOP level play. Let's take your 8-12 hours a day of top level players really, really, really getting good at their 9pool and lurker control with like 2 lurkers and 12 lings. If you saw Soulkey practicing that over and over, and only that, how well do you think that would fare in today's game? Also, do you think he is getting much muta micro practice by only doing that, or learning other timings, practicing his micro, etc.? No. He's not. The game had to evolve and build on itself for people to figure out this wasn't optimal, and therefore, they began switching to other strategies and spent their time there.
Let's flip it and look at it from T's side. They started playing 1 base builds, then slowly optimized into 2 rax + high CC, to 1 rax + high CC, to 1 rax + low CC, and to, now, 1 rax + factory + CC + starport + vessel, living off of like 5 attacking units for 7 minutes. Why do you think the builds slowly went towards that direction? Well, the game built on itself - they took what their predecessors did, and made it better. Not only that, they pushed their boundaries of improving their micro, sim city, and most importantly, their scouting information (this is key), and developed razor thin timings/defenses to make it work. This is an improvement of not only knowledge, but also raw, mechanical skill. It takes WAY more skill to practice 1 rax + low CC (scouting/microing/optimizing) than to sit with 2 barracks on a high ground with the security that you will likely not die to mass lings, which is what pros were spending their 8-12 hours on for a very long time.
I don't deny that there were harder practice schedules back in the KeSPA era, where the game was a real sport and there were lots of people in the pipeline, young and hungry to improve. Yes, that is important, and I do not discount that. There was much greater depth in the talent pool, but it's crazy if you think the top players then are better than the top players now. Sheer practice hours don't directly translate into skill - it might help in that era when everyone else is playing obsolete styles, but as you fast forward, any pro today can pick apart the strategies of old because it's now simple common sense. Ever see that guy on your local ladder playing thousands of games every season but never improving?
Your statement about Best not improving because his stats haven't gotten better makes no sense to me. First of all you can't compare two eras. Second, if everyone else is getting better (at least the top 24-ish), then of course his overall skill is improving but not relative to the competition to be dominant. We're comparing Best today vs. Best of old - I'm pretty sure he'll take his today self than the past.
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A debate, like a marriage, is only beautiful between two equals.
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EPT
