[ASL8] Ro8 Day2 Sharp vs Action - Page 9

On August 10 2019 01:24 KamMoye wrote:
A debate, like a marriage, is only beautiful between two equals.

On August 09 2019 21:00 TornadoSteve wrote:


Speechless. This is so wrong on so many levels I dont even know where to start.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, Action is probably the #1 zerg in the world right now. He had a bad day, like everyone does, and still manage to advance to RO4. Oh and by the way, he is probably favorite over Snow in the RO4.

On August 10 2019 01:05 Jaeyun wrote:


What do you mean this is a weak thesis..? I can't quite tell if you're serious - this is literally what makes Starcraft what it is. Skill in Starcraft is largely defined by a combination of mechanics and knowledge. You seem to be placing so much equity into sheer practice hours, and not enough in the knowledge component of the game. If you watched the game throughout the years, you see that strategies developed as a result of optimization, and a response to players over time pushing their boundaries to what they thought was possible.

If you want me to challenge your simple statement that more focused time equates into higher skill, let's take a walk back in history, say, in TvZ.

You know a long time ago, top Z's used to spend all their time going 9 pool into 1 base lurker. This was TOP level play. Let's take your 8-12 hours a day of top level players really, really, really getting good at their 9pool and lurker control with like 2 lurkers and 12 lings. If you saw Soulkey practicing that over and over, and only that, how well do you think that would fare in today's game? Also, do you think he is getting much muta micro practice by only doing that, or learning other timings, practicing his micro, etc.? No. He's not. The game had to evolve and build on itself for people to figure out this wasn't optimal, and therefore, they began switching to other strategies and spent their time there.

Let's flip it and look at it from T's side. They started playing 1 base builds, then slowly optimized into 2 rax + high CC, to 1 rax + high CC, to 1 rax + low CC, and to, now, 1 rax + factory + CC + starport + vessel, living off of like 5 attacking units for 7 minutes. Why do you think the builds slowly went towards that direction? Well, the game built on itself - they took what their predecessors did, and made it better. Not only that, they pushed their boundaries of improving their micro, sim city, and most importantly, their scouting information (this is key), and developed razor thin timings/defenses to make it work. This is an improvement of not only knowledge, but also raw, mechanical skill. It takes WAY more skill to practice 1 rax + low CC (scouting/microing/optimizing) than to sit with 2 barracks on a high ground with the security that you will likely not die to mass lings, which is what pros were spending their 8-12 hours on for a very long time.

I don't deny that there were harder practice schedules back in the KeSPA era, where the game was a real sport and there were lots of people in the pipeline, young and hungry to improve. Yes, that is important, and I do not discount that. There was much greater depth in the talent pool, but it's crazy if you think the top players then are better than the top players now. Sheer practice hours don't directly translate into skill - it might help in that era when everyone else is playing obsolete styles, but as you fast forward, any pro today can pick apart the strategies of old because it's now simple common sense. Ever see that guy on your local ladder playing thousands of games every season but never improving?

Your statement about Best not improving because his stats haven't gotten better makes no sense to me. First of all you can't compare two eras. Second, if everyone else is getting better (at least the top 24-ish), then of course his overall skill is improving but not relative to the competition to be dominant. We're comparing Best today vs. Best of old - I'm pretty sure he'll take his today self than the past.

I don't have a horse in this race but I think it's naive to blindly assume that all of these newer razor thin timings/defenses would hold against the arguably higher late kespa-era (pre-sc2) mechanics that players had back then.

On August 10 2019 05:58 Jaeyun wrote:


Just to clarify as my post may have been a little misleading - I don't deny that there was probably more time to practice mechanics and to execute strategies (though, there were less serious variation to deal with back then than now). With time, study, and practice, the KeSPA players would be able to pull off what is happening today (obviously, since they're doing it now).

What I absolutely disagree with is this notion that the "far superior mechanics" of the past would more than make up from the evolution of knowledge that took many years to develop. To put it simply, if I could pick a team of the top 5 players in the past year and put them against the top 5 players (even if they are the same people) back in any other past era, my team would completely dominate.

Even if this theory that the top players' mechanics are worse is true, and for some players it probably is (but certainly not all), the knowledge would way more than make up for it.

On August 10 2019 01:31 Liquid`Drone wrote:


This was either a very classy way of conceding the argument or a very low class way of walking away from it. :D

On August 10 2019 05:58 Jaeyun wrote:

What I absolutely disagree with is this notion that the "far superior mechanics" of the past would more than make up from the evolution of knowledge that took many years to develop. To put it simply, if I could pick a team of the top 5 players in the past year and put them against the top 5 players (even if they are the same people) back in any other past era, my team would completely dominate.

Even if this theory that the top players' mechanics are worse is true, and for some players it probably is (but certainly not all), the knowledge would way more than make up for it.

[B]On August 10 2019 08:29 BisuDagger wrote:



I'm genuinely curious how good Rain is at PvP. Is he one of the best of all time or are the other protoss players that lacking in PvP skill. Would peak form Kal , Stork, Bisu, or Shuttle loss just as easily or at their Kespa best would they be so good Rain would be mediocre against them. I personally it's a mix. He's definitely one of the best, but I think that he really hasn't been challenged yet. Before Rain and after Kespa PvP was actually a really rare matchup in tournaments and not practiced often. I think the low priority of need to be good at PvP has made everyone but Rain complacent and his brilliant mind is just taking advantage of it.

On August 10 2019 13:49 ggsimida wrote:


"current knowledge" is just slight refinements/variations of old builds. 5rax+1, 111, goliath openings...all these builds that flash pushes for tvz meta over the past few years are nothing really new, their general idea already exist back in modern kespa era...same goes for zerg responses. also the "evolution" only occurs for certain couple matchups, theres basically no change in say, zvz.

the way people describe "current knowledge" here and now is really hyperbolic, making it seem like the meta is completely flipped over with some absolutely revolutionary ideas when there aren't. tvz goliath opening isn't some revolutionary shit.

also for zerg i would pick 08/09 JD over any current zerg player with sole exception of in-form effort maybe. his level of mechanics and execution is just leaguessss above any zerg i seen today and i have no doubt he can adjust his strats on the fly against mere refinements of terran builds that he has already faced numerous times before.

On August 10 2019 15:20 Ethelis wrote:


Goliath openings were never as stable as they are today (at least not in the "prime" KeSPA era). The hardest hitting version of a Goliath build that I remember is the one off 14cc. As we know, 14cc every game isn't stable at all.

As to whether the Goliath is stable because of today's maps might be a topic worth exploring but I get the impression that this isn't the case. I don't really watch sponmatches really so I can't confidently take stance on this.