[ASL8] Ro8 Day2 Sharp vs Action
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BLinD-RawR
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Empyrean
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Twinkle Toes
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Been away from BW scene for so long, can someone bring me up to speed: 1. What happened to flash, stork, jaedong 2. I know bisu is out of the military already, is he on this tournament? 3. who is favored to win this tournament? 4. who are the new non tbls guys to watch now? | ||
konadora
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On August 06 2019 18:42 Twinkle Toes wrote: Action is good now? Been away from BW scene for so long, can someone bring me up to speed: 1. What happened to flash, stork, jaedong 2. I know bisu is out of the military already, is he on this tournament? 3. who is favored to win this tournament? 4. who are the new non tbls guys to watch now? now I don't mean to sound rude but the answer to 1 and 2 would just be to look at liquipedia for this tournament itself. Afreeca Starleague Season 8 3. Flash 4 Terran: Last Sharp Protoss: Snow Rain Mini Zerg : ZerO Action Larva | ||
Ziggy
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Liquid`Drone
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Looking at the layout of his hatchery+hydra den + the neutral eggs, it looks like if an egg on the left side of the hatchery would block vulture movement. So I think he was planning on moving the larva to the left side of the hatchery (by pressing stop while having the larva grouped together with another unit) and then building an egg, but then I think he forgot to actually do it at the right timing. And from the looks of it, that probably cost him the game. | ||
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On August 06 2019 19:40 Jackal03 wrote: Sharp situation is terrible, I don't think he can turn around this game Action is trying his best to help him. | ||
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On August 06 2019 20:28 Liquid`Drone wrote: was a very mismanaged defense on his behalf for sure. if he had more patience with his first 15-20 hydras (just let his base die) and established a proper wide-angled attack I think he could have held. exactly, he engaged with very small armies and was unable to proper defend | ||
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nojok
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On August 06 2019 20:42 Terrorbladder wrote: Sharp not gg'ing? Given action's army control in the first 3 games, sharp is allowed to think he has chance. | ||
geod
Vietnam448 Posts
On August 06 2019 20:40 Jackal03 wrote: LOL, so many drones sent to sharp natural Not that many compared to game 2 lol | ||
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AttackZerg
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On August 06 2019 20:52 Wonk wrote: this has been such a messy series from both sides. I'm not sure whether it's their playstyles bumping against eachother badly but it seems to be all weaknesses I think you nailed it with play styles. Action, for his many faults, has been one of the strongest ZvT's, esp after 11 minutes for a decade. Sharp isn't the top TvZ but he is fearsome. | ||
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Jackal03
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Well, if action play this sloppy against snow, he will miss the finals | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
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BLinD-RawR
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On August 06 2019 21:08 Jackal03 wrote: game 5 was a huge disapointment. Well, if action play this sloppy against snow, he will miss the finals well then I'll take solace with the fact that action doesn't need to go through qualifiers next season. | ||
Wonk
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Turbovolver
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On August 06 2019 21:17 Jackal03 wrote: I wish we had a rain v flash semifinals on the other side and a flash v snow finals It's still possible! | ||
Wonk
546 Posts
I'd say it's more than possible, I'd say it's almost certain | ||
LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On August 06 2019 21:08 Jackal03 wrote: game 5 was a huge disapointment. Well, if action play this sloppy against snow, he will miss the finals Don't worry, if Sharp had won playing like this, he would have died even faster to Snow than Last did | ||
LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On August 06 2019 21:11 Wonk wrote: what a weird series. Neither showed their best, it was just an art gallery of weird plays and mistakes. What was up with Sharp not getting irradiate and floating his science facility? He lifted it to try to save it from the drop, I think irradiate was getting researched right then? | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On August 06 2019 21:38 Wonk wrote: I'd say it's more than possible, I'd say it's almost certain That's what I think I would Liquibet, but I wouldn't say it's almost certain xD | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
I know it's very likely, i'm just stating that I wish this happens and I will be cheering for it | ||
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1702 Posts
That was a pretty sloppy series, to put it mildly | ||
Alpha-NP-
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lepape
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art_of_turtle
United States1153 Posts
On August 06 2019 23:03 Alpha-NP- wrote: I did not expect Action to win at all. But that just shows how strong he is. We gotta rely on Action and Zero to pick up the Zerg torch. **cough** SACSRI *cough** | ||
whaski
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Xain0n
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Have Sacsri and Action already completed military service? If not, they won't last much given they were both born in 1992. | ||
JoinTheRain
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Nematocyst
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Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On August 07 2019 06:53 Nematocyst wrote: sat dumbfounded as Action got 2 decisive early advantages, then spent 25 minutes eventually converting. Great player, but he has no game sense. Should be giving the final blow, but instead built a round of drones that rally across the map... wtf? I realize it's easy as an observer.. see # bases each side, supply, army size... bug sheesh.. he should have put the nail in the coffin instead of let Sharp battle back. (which to Sharp's credit, he almost did both times) You could easily see from Vegeta's body language that he was super nervous. This is easily his highest profile match since his proleague days at KT and that was over 7 years ago now. There was a next season seed on the line as well as a Ro4 place so you can see why he was making those weird little mistakes at least. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19033 Posts
On August 07 2019 06:53 Nematocyst wrote: sat dumbfounded as Action got 2 decisive early advantages, then spent 25 minutes eventually converting. Great player, but he has no game sense. Should be giving the final blow, but instead built a round of drones that rally across the map... wtf? I realize it's easy as an observer.. see # bases each side, supply, army size... bug sheesh.. he should have put the nail in the coffin instead of let Sharp battle back. (which to Sharp's credit, he almost did both times) Jaedong says hi to this one. Best zerg in the world spends an entire game with his units blocked from moving up a ramp. Killer also would like to chime in for the game versus Sea(?) where he went the first 25 minutes with out the crackling upgrade. I do agree that he did make a humongous error, but even the best have had off days. So I think he deserves a pass since he won anyway. | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
I agree that his play was very sloppy, but the decision making/thought process was good. | ||
outscar
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Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
On August 07 2019 08:22 fearthequeen wrote: To be fair, finishing off a Terran who is not moving out and committed to defending, is probably the hardest thing in the game. Zergs at this level know that bleeding units into a wall of Terran is the best way to throw a big lead in zvt. That's why zergs tend to just drone up after a successful attack. I agree that his play was very sloppy, but the decision making/thought process was good. Yeah he almost threw games 2&4 after taking a huge lead, against a better Terran he might even have lost. He also lost drones needlessly on multiple occasions. If he rushed to defiler+lurker while taking a third he would have ended those games much earlier. | ||
konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
absolutely atrocious lol the less-shittier player advanced | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
On August 07 2019 11:32 konadora wrote: that was in no way a ro8 level of performance absolutely atrocious lol the less-shittier player advanced Agreed. They were both showing signs of nerves. You have to consider neither of them is very familiar with going deep in tourneys. I still favor Action slightly vs Snow, even after the lackluster performance. | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
ASL 1 finals KSL 2 finals along with some deep runs | ||
Starecat
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Miragee
8292 Posts
On August 06 2019 23:56 Xain0n wrote: Have Sacsri and Action already completed military service? If not, they won't last much given they were both born in 1992. I think it was mentioned that Action already completed his. | ||
TonDan
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
Action is a really good Zerg who has been super solid for a long time. If he stinks it up next round, okay, have at it. I think he should be congratulated though. He's been grinding and earned it. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19033 Posts
On August 08 2019 05:02 KamMoye wrote: Massive haters. Aggression leads to scrappy games. Scrappy games are by definition mistake filled. This was a fun, if not great, series. Refreshing from the typical macro v macro affairs. If this is the type of response to mixing it up, no wonder players are just defensive all the time. Sharp's play style wants to mix it up and get you off your timings, playing spontaneously. That's the point. Action is a really good Zerg who has been super solid for a long time. If he stinks it up next round, okay, have at it. I think he should be congratulated though. He's been grinding and earned it. I completely agree with you. I finished the games and came to the thread thinking I watched the most fun series in a long time. Mistakes were made, but these games were a nailbiter. I'm sure more people enjoyed these games then let on. There are lots of great posters in this forum that are critical of players, but I rather enjoy hearing their viewpoints even if they aren't my own. | ||
hiro protagonist
1294 Posts
To be fair, the only mistake during the series that was ‘unforgivable’ was the mad rally of drones to sharpers Natural. It kept happening even after action caught it. Otherwise, the games were such nail biters that both players needed to do thing as fast as they could just to stay alive. Of course there we gonna be mistakes in those situations | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
Call it nerves, lack of preparation, bad day, whatever. That said, I really like Action as the dark horse for the rest of the tourney. Usually helps confidence/focus to pull out a series win in that fashion. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20729 Posts
On August 08 2019 06:34 BisuDagger wrote: I completely agree with you. I finished the games and came to the thread thinking I watched the most fun series in a long time. Mistakes were made, but these games were a nailbiter. I'm sure more people enjoyed these games then let on. There are lots of great posters in this forum that are critical of players, but I rather enjoy hearing their viewpoints even if they aren't my own. It’s far preferable for two good players to have a sloppy day and give us an enjoyable series than for one player to show up and the other not. Ideally we get two guys bringing their A game, it requires some alignment of the stars (or brackets) alas, given how many players have relative Achilles Heels matchup wise. I do love me some weird Starcraft games, feels sometimes it pushes players into weird scenarios and they have to think on their feet. Who was it that forGG played in the last couple of months in TvP? Crazy weird base trade but really edge of the seat stuff. | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4701 Posts
On August 08 2019 06:34 BisuDagger wrote: I completely agree with you. I finished the games and came to the thread thinking I watched the most fun series in a long time. Mistakes were made, but these games were a nailbiter. I'm sure more people enjoyed these games then let on. There are lots of great posters in this forum that are critical of players, but I rather enjoy hearing their viewpoints even if they aren't my own. Scrappy games are super fun if the players are playing good StarCraft or it is some Ro32 game. This is a Ro8 game, the level of play is just not what I expect at this stage. Actually, I take this back, it is the level of play I expect unfortunately. No matter how much love I have for the game, it is clear to see that these are just ex-pro players, 10 years older without a good training environment. Watching some new strategies is fun, the execution not so much. edit: There are still pleasent surprises out there, like Snow's PvT. | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
On August 08 2019 14:36 Malinor wrote: Scrappy games are super fun if the players are playing good StarCraft or it is some Ro32 game. This is a Ro8 game, the level of play is just not what I expect at this stage. Actually, I take this back, it is the level of play I expect unfortunately. No matter how much love I have for the game, it is clear to see that these are just ex-pro players, 10 years older without a good training environment. Watching some new strategies is fun, the execution not so much. edit: There are still pleasent surprises out there, like Snow's PvT. Most of the remaining active bw players are playing the best bw of their life, and that include Action and Sharp. May be not in their last bo5, but they are playing better than they were in the kespa era and this is not even close. | ||
Malinor
Germany4701 Posts
On August 08 2019 16:22 TornadoSteve wrote: Most of the remaining active bw players are playing the best bw of their life, and that include Action and Sharp. May be not in their last bo5, but they are playing better than they were in the kespa era and this is not even close. This is most certainly not the case. And I am always in shock when I realize that some people on TL honestly believe that. Strategically players might be close or even have improved. But the execution is very lackluster. The quality of games, especially in the Ro24 and Ro16 is nothing what it was in the KESPA-era. I guess we just have to disagree, which is fine. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19033 Posts
On August 08 2019 18:23 Malinor wrote: This is most certainly not the case. And I am always in shock when I realize that some people on TL honestly believe that. Strategically players might be close or even have improved. But the execution is very lackluster. The quality of games, especially in the Ro24 and Ro16 is nothing what it was in the KESPA-era. I guess we just have to disagree, which is fine. Just a hypothesis, but here's another take on level of play. In part you can blame the constant map rotations as a reason why the level of play isn't there. Back when you had a team environment, you had B-teamers and coaches studying the maps at the same time. So even if the maps rotated constantly, you had a whole brigade behind you to help analyze the maps as quickly as possible so you can settle in and focus on execution of your builds. Every season of ASL brings a whole new rotation of maps that are very different from the previous seasons. Don't get me wrong, I love seeing a nice rotating map pool, but if the ASL kept more maps the same between seasons within each calendar year then we would start to see more consistent and higher level play. The counter argument to maps could be that KSL uses ladder maps and we still see lower level play for most of the group stage games. I think the KSL problem has been that it generally doesn't end up with the best 16 players available. Repeatedly, we see pros that sit out on the KSL so they can be healthy for the ASL. Therefore, without the top 16 best available players we can't really expect the highest level of games before the round of 8 or possible until the round of 4. | ||
superjoppe
Sweden3680 Posts
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Jaeyun
United States199 Posts
The era of streaming has the meta evolving way more rapidly than back in the day, where pros were practicing amongst themselves in team houses. Trying to keep up with the variation in strategy today at the highest of levels, especially in TvZ, is infinitely more difficult to the variation back then. Even if variation existed back then, it was not optimized to the dot. When a new build or trend comes out, you can literally watch the build order on their streams and devise strategies to counteract it - you can tell the sloppiness of some of these strategies, on top of some weird maps, as a function of lack of time/preparation and tournament nerves. If you let TvZ run its course where virtually every Terran just opens 5Rax +1, you would have a much higher frequency of solid games. A lot of people are cheesing and trying to mind-game each other and the meta in those early rounds so the quality appears to be poor. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
On August 09 2019 03:22 TaardadAiel wrote: Don't get me wrong, Snow is for me at least in better overall shape than Rain (excluding PvP), but Action's ZvP is really strong. I'd consider Snow vs Action one of the closest matches the current scene has to offer. Yep. Snow vs Action may well be a worst matchup vs best matchup scenario. Not to mention the map stats are favoring z>p so far. Plenty of reasons for Action to be the favorite there. | ||
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
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fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
On August 09 2019 07:22 Cryoc wrote: Action has a 5-10 record in ZvP in ASL compared to his now 9-3 record in ZvT, so ZvP is hardly his best matchup in offline leagues. I hope he wins vs Snow, but that doesn't seem too likely. Good point. Where did you find these stats? | ||
Ideas
United States7956 Posts
Action vs snow should be great, although pretty hard to tell how it will go IMO. Snow is favored on paper IMO but action seems pretty great at preparing builds and snow has a penchant for randomly failing hard in pvz (but when he's on he's one of the pvz there is right now). I generally always cheer for zerg but I can't think of a more epic final for this ASL than snow vs flash, so I'm hoping they both pull through. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On August 09 2019 03:17 Jaeyun wrote: The pool is certainly smaller so there's that, but there is absolutely no denying that the top players today are far more skilled than that of the past simply because Starcraft is a game that builds on itself. If that's your thesis... it's pretty weak as far as theses go. A game that builds on itself? Unpack what that actually means. It's fairly simple: pros put more focused time in the game back in KeSPA than they do now. That and the players are simply less talented. Even take a guy like Best. Look at his Kespa stats/ranking. Many of his peers are now gone--Bogus, Stats, Kal, so on. Yet he's not doing any better. I don't think he's more skilled now than before. If he was the same level player, he should be a dominant Protoss. Some have improved. But take someone like Action. He and Stats were KT's 2nd and 3rd best players. Action has less competition now; he was an average or slightly above average player back in the day. Now he's a top Zerg. I mean, yeesh, who are the ten best Zergs/Terrans/Tosses now? Compared to ten years ago? It gets real ugly quick after the t5 in 2019. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20729 Posts
On the other hand on a pure execution level there’s much more sloppiness than there used to be. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
16) Some fans worry that without the support of the fully sponsored pro teams of the KeSPA era, today's aspiring pro Brood War players will never be able to reach the level of the current generation of top players. Do you think these concerns are justified? hero: Well ... I think I might think that way. But now the star version has a different feeling. When I was in the old association, I saw that the teams were divided and there was not much interaction between them. Nowadays, everyone seems to be getting better by sharing solutions. Of course, the amount of practice is not as great as before, but now it's enough to compete and try to win. I think it is almost similar to the highest level. The good thing about living in a professional team is that you will be able to practice enough, but I think that the conceptual part will fall. 17) With the return of a lot more BW players, the skill level has risen greatly and some players have went on record to say that they perform better than during the kespa days. Do you believe that the skill level has increased that much despite the lack of teams, practice partners and coaches? Please elaborate. hero: During the KeSPA days, the concept seemed to be lacking. In my case, I faced protoss mainly on the team, and I could not face much terran and zerg. These days, it seems that it will not be enough to just be good at BW. So, I think that the lack of things will gradually get better through practice. It is also helpful to learn the concept while watching the first person view of a good gamer. It is a lot different from the KeSPA days. | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
On August 09 2019 11:55 KamMoye wrote: If that's your thesis... it's pretty weak as far as theses go. A game that builds on itself? Unpack what that actually means. 1 It's fairly simple: pros put more focused time in the game back in KeSPA than they do now. 2 That and the players are simply less talented. 3 Even take a guy like Best. Look at his Kespa stats/ranking. Many of his peers are now gone--Bogus, Stats, Kal, so on. Yet he's not doing any better. I don't think he's more skilled now than before. If he was the same level player, he should be a dominant Protoss. Some have improved. But take someone like Action. He and Stats were KT's 2nd and 3rd best players. 4 Action has less competition now; he was an average or slightly above average player back in the day. Now he's a top Zerg. 5 I mean, yeesh, who are the ten best Zergs/Terrans/Tosses now? Compared to ten years ago? It gets real ugly quick after the t5 in 2019. 1 - Generally agree. Although I suspect some of the top players spend more time than they did during Kespa (off stream practicing/replay/map analysis). 2 - This is an arbitrary statement. Do you mean they are generally older, and thus slower? Maybe less talented mechanically. Strategically they are more advanced though as has been discussed. 3 - So since other Protosses left the scene, Best should be a top P? Perhaps he hasn't been working as hard as everyone else. 4 - Less competition now? Based on what. New blood fills the gaps anytime players leave. Maybe Action works harder than other zergs. 5 - I'm not sure what you mean here. Is the top 10 player list supposed to look the same today as it did Kespa era? I would agree that the scene is probably more top heavy, though, if that's what you mean. I can't speak for Jaeyun, but I suspect what he's getting at is this - as the game goes on, the optimal reactions get more and more agreed upon and optimized. A small example to express this - how many zergs did you see trying to take down scouting scv/probe with a drone to maximize drone count during Kespa era? And now, if you watch this ASL, how many are doing it? A higher % of the players understand the optimal reactions to each situation now. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On August 09 2019 13:15 fearthequeen wrote: 2 - This is an arbitrary statement. Do you mean they are generally older, and thus slower? Maybe less talented mechanically. Strategically they are more advanced though as has been discussed. Discussed isn't proven. Strategy may be more advanced but tactics certainly aren't. It's not arbitrary. It's factual. The talent pool has shrunk. Therefore there is less talent. Therefore there is less competition--steel sharpens steel. If you or anyone can't agree with this, so be it; no point in repeating the same points over and over. The rest of your post was just more of the same. I mean, I get it--a lot of people are super invested into believing what they're experiencing now is the best. That's also human nature. I just don't think it's remotely true, having lived through both. You've got Flash. Who has no competition. And that's the only God-type player. We went from TBLS, with numerous sub-contenders, to... Flash, who isn't remotely challenged in individual leagues anymore, and... who? Soulkey? Last? There isn't even a player as good as Fantasy in the current scene, aside from Flash. Rain is about even imo. On August 09 2019 12:21 ggsimida wrote: i think hero explained it well enough in his tl interview 2 years ago "Everyone seems to be getting better by sharing solutions." I challenge this. Humans are cliquey by nature. I am extremely skeptical there's an open source environment in Brood War--not enough to make up from the skill atrophy from... "... the amount of practice is not as great as before..." Some numbers would be nice. We used to hear of pros practicing 8-12 hours a day. Now I hear a lot more of pros streaming everything but BW. There's something to be said for theorycrafting--quite a bit, honestly--but overall, practice, practice, practice is the name of the game. There's just no adequate replacement for practice. Also: the Kespa days had an ecosystem--coach, B-steamers, starters, A-listers. So I'm calling BS on the concepts being stronger now. Back in the days you had Kwanro, Shine, Calm, Mind, Fantasy, Kal--a lot of extremely strong, creative players. You had more creativity because there were snipers; someone could have a career just sniping vP or vT. That specialization enhanced execution and it actually led to more exciting games and upsets. Nowadays the ecosystem is gone and its personalized, monetized through streaming, cult of personality and sponsored matches. | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
I'm not invested in believing that BW level overall right now is "the best." Just wanted to have a logical discussion on Kespa era vs BW today. If you think "...the players are simply less talented" is not an arbitrary statement, please quantify how you came to this conclusion. At a certain point this just becomes a Michael Jordan vs LeBron James argument. Apples to oranges. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
Youre doing exactly what you're accusing me of, though. I mean, either respond or don't. Saying, "I'm too good to respond" is a self-protective measure for your ego. (I wrote this before you edited in your last sentence, which further emphasizes my point. So which is it, you're too good to respond or you're responding?) Worth noting Flash is gone after ASL. | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
So where did I twist what you said? Are you just throwing whatever at the wall to see what sticks? Make up your mind. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On August 09 2019 07:22 Cryoc wrote: Action has a 5-10 record in ZvP in ASL compared to his now 9-3 record in ZvT, so ZvP is hardly his best matchup in offline leagues. I hope he wins vs Snow, but that doesn't seem too likely. He beat Mini 3-0 in KSL3 when Mini was tearing zerg left and right. Mini got back at him in a rematch, but still, a 3-0 isn't anything to scoff at even considering Mini's instability. | ||
Malinor
Germany4701 Posts
The KESPA-era is over since approximately ~8 years. And yet you still see the same names. And to add on that, it is mostly 2nd tier players that are the top dogs now (obviously not talking about Soulkey, Effort or Flash here). No real new talent breaks through, Larva being the only exception (and he cannot win a tournament because he is not good enough). To paraphrase Day[9] in one of the videos in his youtube series: Strategy and understanding of the game is very important, but nothing beats execution in BroodWar. There is simply too much stuff to do. The best example of this is Jaedong: while being a fantastic player in all aspects of the game, what made him the best was his flawless execution. With age, motivational loss and possibly wrist issues (basically every pro-player has these issues from what I can tell), he cannot play to his strengths anymore and a lot of his games just look terrible as a result of it. And to push this one step further: If execution is not on the highest level, it is hard to tell if the emerging strategies are really superior. edit: for completeness sake: BisuDagger's point on the last page in regard to the maps is also very interesting, I have to think more about this. | ||
JackyVSO
Denmark80 Posts
If Action in any way gives Snow a run for his money in the semi final, it will really show how important matchup is compared to general skill. | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
On August 09 2019 20:24 JackyVSO wrote: After watching this match, I'm afraid Action will have the same role next season as Horang2 had this season: The one whose group everyone wants to get in, and the only seed to miss the Ro.8. His performance was a huge contrast to Snow's victory vs Last. If Action in any way gives Snow a run for his money in the semi final, it will really show how important matchup is compared to general skill. Speechless. This is so wrong on so many levels I dont even know where to start. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, Action is probably the #1 zerg in the world right now. He had a bad day, like everyone does, and still manage to advance to RO4. Oh and by the way, he is probably favorite over Snow in the RO4. | ||
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6322 Posts
On August 09 2019 21:00 TornadoSteve wrote: Speechless. This is so wrong on so many levels I dont even know where to start. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, Action is probably the #1 zerg in the world right now. He had a bad day, like everyone does, and still manage to advance to RO4. Oh and by the way, he is probably favorite over Snow in the RO4. damn u so right.effort hero and now sk in military | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19033 Posts
On August 09 2019 22:48 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: damn u so right.effort hero and now sk in military Yeah, that's crazy isn't it. Yet somehow we have two zergs still in the round of 8. Even if effort, hero, and sk were still in the scene I'd say Action and Horang2 are still incomparable. Horang2 is a pretty mediocre Protoss player and hasn't really done anything impressive the way Action has. I'd put him on the third tier of protoss with Guemchi and Jaehoon. None one is as bad as Pure though and he steadily holds the Protoss floor. | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
Guemchi is way better imo and with more practice he would probably be in the top tier. Always been a fan of iammang tho so i might be biased | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19033 Posts
On August 09 2019 23:33 TornadoSteve wrote: Horang2 opens the whole tech tree, sim city a sexy 2 bases protoss then start to think where to suicide his shuttle. Guemchi is way better imo and with more practice he would probably be in the top tier. Always been a fan of iammang tho so i might be biased Haha fair. He was quite good two years ago. He probably is ahead of Horang2, but still tier two. If anything we can demote Horang2 and Jaehoon to tier 3. I think Snow, Mini, Rain, and BeSt have been consistent enough to earn top tier. | ||
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On August 09 2019 07:50 fearthequeen wrote: Good point. Where did you find these stats? At the start of the ASL match they always show the stats for each player that's where I got it from. Action was 6-1 in ZvT before this bo5. | ||
Jaeyun
United States199 Posts
On August 09 2019 11:55 KamMoye wrote: If that's your thesis... it's pretty weak as far as theses go. A game that builds on itself? Unpack what that actually means. It's fairly simple: pros put more focused time in the game back in KeSPA than they do now. That and the players are simply less talented. Even take a guy like Best. Look at his Kespa stats/ranking. Many of his peers are now gone--Bogus, Stats, Kal, so on. Yet he's not doing any better. I don't think he's more skilled now than before. If he was the same level player, he should be a dominant Protoss. What do you mean this is a weak thesis..? I can't quite tell if you're serious - this is literally what makes Starcraft what it is. Skill in Starcraft is largely defined by a combination of mechanics and knowledge. You seem to be placing so much equity into sheer practice hours, and not enough in the knowledge component of the game. If you watched the game throughout the years, you see that strategies developed as a result of optimization, and a response to players over time pushing their boundaries to what they thought was possible. If you want me to challenge your simple statement that more focused time equates into higher skill, let's take a walk back in history, say, in TvZ. You know a long time ago, top Z's used to spend all their time going 9 pool into 1 base lurker. This was TOP level play. Let's take your 8-12 hours a day of top level players really, really, really getting good at their 9pool and lurker control with like 2 lurkers and 12 lings. If you saw Soulkey practicing that over and over, and only that, how well do you think that would fare in today's game? Also, do you think he is getting much muta micro practice by only doing that, or learning other timings, practicing his micro, etc.? No. He's not. The game had to evolve and build on itself for people to figure out this wasn't optimal, and therefore, they began switching to other strategies and spent their time there. Let's flip it and look at it from T's side. They started playing 1 base builds, then slowly optimized into 2 rax + high CC, to 1 rax + high CC, to 1 rax + low CC, and to, now, 1 rax + factory + CC + starport + vessel, living off of like 5 attacking units for 7 minutes. Why do you think the builds slowly went towards that direction? Well, the game built on itself - they took what their predecessors did, and made it better. Not only that, they pushed their boundaries of improving their micro, sim city, and most importantly, their scouting information (this is key), and developed razor thin timings/defenses to make it work. This is an improvement of not only knowledge, but also raw, mechanical skill. It takes WAY more skill to practice 1 rax + low CC (scouting/microing/optimizing) than to sit with 2 barracks on a high ground with the security that you will likely not die to mass lings, which is what pros were spending their 8-12 hours on for a very long time. I don't deny that there were harder practice schedules back in the KeSPA era, where the game was a real sport and there were lots of people in the pipeline, young and hungry to improve. Yes, that is important, and I do not discount that. There was much greater depth in the talent pool, but it's crazy if you think the top players then are better than the top players now. Sheer practice hours don't directly translate into skill - it might help in that era when everyone else is playing obsolete styles, but as you fast forward, any pro today can pick apart the strategies of old because it's now simple common sense. Ever see that guy on your local ladder playing thousands of games every season but never improving? Your statement about Best not improving because his stats haven't gotten better makes no sense to me. First of all you can't compare two eras. Second, if everyone else is getting better (at least the top 24-ish), then of course his overall skill is improving but not relative to the competition to be dominant. We're comparing Best today vs. Best of old - I'm pretty sure he'll take his today self than the past. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28263 Posts
On August 10 2019 01:24 KamMoye wrote: A debate, like a marriage, is only beautiful between two equals. This was either a very classy way of conceding the argument or a very low class way of walking away from it. :D | ||
kaspa84
Brazil159 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19033 Posts
On August 10 2019 01:31 Liquid`Drone wrote: This was either a very classy way of conceding the argument or a very low class way of walking away from it. :D I'm over a foot taller then my wife. If this is true, I should have a huge advantage in my debates. | ||
FlopTurnReaver
Switzerland1980 Posts
On August 10 2019 03:06 BisuDagger wrote: I'm over a foot taller then my wife. If this is true, I should have a huge advantage in my debates. Why do I doubt that's how it actually is? | ||
JackyVSO
Denmark80 Posts
On August 09 2019 21:00 TornadoSteve wrote: Speechless. This is so wrong on so many levels I dont even know where to start. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, Action is probably the #1 zerg in the world right now. He had a bad day, like everyone does, and still manage to advance to RO4. Oh and by the way, he is probably favorite over Snow in the RO4. I kind of agree that he's the best Zerg but that's not saying much at the moment. It appears he's not as good as Sharp who's only the third best Terran. Maybe he did just have a bad day. We'll see how it goes in the semis. | ||
Ethelis
United States2394 Posts
On August 10 2019 01:05 Jaeyun wrote: What do you mean this is a weak thesis..? I can't quite tell if you're serious - this is literally what makes Starcraft what it is. Skill in Starcraft is largely defined by a combination of mechanics and knowledge. You seem to be placing so much equity into sheer practice hours, and not enough in the knowledge component of the game. If you watched the game throughout the years, you see that strategies developed as a result of optimization, and a response to players over time pushing their boundaries to what they thought was possible. If you want me to challenge your simple statement that more focused time equates into higher skill, let's take a walk back in history, say, in TvZ. You know a long time ago, top Z's used to spend all their time going 9 pool into 1 base lurker. This was TOP level play. Let's take your 8-12 hours a day of top level players really, really, really getting good at their 9pool and lurker control with like 2 lurkers and 12 lings. If you saw Soulkey practicing that over and over, and only that, how well do you think that would fare in today's game? Also, do you think he is getting much muta micro practice by only doing that, or learning other timings, practicing his micro, etc.? No. He's not. The game had to evolve and build on itself for people to figure out this wasn't optimal, and therefore, they began switching to other strategies and spent their time there. Let's flip it and look at it from T's side. They started playing 1 base builds, then slowly optimized into 2 rax + high CC, to 1 rax + high CC, to 1 rax + low CC, and to, now, 1 rax + factory + CC + starport + vessel, living off of like 5 attacking units for 7 minutes. Why do you think the builds slowly went towards that direction? Well, the game built on itself - they took what their predecessors did, and made it better. Not only that, they pushed their boundaries of improving their micro, sim city, and most importantly, their scouting information (this is key), and developed razor thin timings/defenses to make it work. This is an improvement of not only knowledge, but also raw, mechanical skill. It takes WAY more skill to practice 1 rax + low CC (scouting/microing/optimizing) than to sit with 2 barracks on a high ground with the security that you will likely not die to mass lings, which is what pros were spending their 8-12 hours on for a very long time. I don't deny that there were harder practice schedules back in the KeSPA era, where the game was a real sport and there were lots of people in the pipeline, young and hungry to improve. Yes, that is important, and I do not discount that. There was much greater depth in the talent pool, but it's crazy if you think the top players then are better than the top players now. Sheer practice hours don't directly translate into skill - it might help in that era when everyone else is playing obsolete styles, but as you fast forward, any pro today can pick apart the strategies of old because it's now simple common sense. Ever see that guy on your local ladder playing thousands of games every season but never improving? Your statement about Best not improving because his stats haven't gotten better makes no sense to me. First of all you can't compare two eras. Second, if everyone else is getting better (at least the top 24-ish), then of course his overall skill is improving but not relative to the competition to be dominant. We're comparing Best today vs. Best of old - I'm pretty sure he'll take his today self than the past. I don't have a horse in this race but I think it's naive to blindly assume that all of these newer razor thin timings/defenses would hold against the arguably higher late kespa-era (pre-sc2) mechanics that players had back then. | ||
Jaeyun
United States199 Posts
I don't have a horse in this race but I think it's naive to blindly assume that all of these newer razor thin timings/defenses would hold against the arguably higher late kespa-era (pre-sc2) mechanics that players had back then. Just to clarify as my post may have been a little misleading - I don't deny that there was probably more time to practice mechanics and to execute strategies (though, there were less serious variation to deal with back then than now). With time, study, and practice, the KeSPA players would be able to pull off what is happening today (obviously, since they're doing it now). What I absolutely disagree with is this notion that the "far superior mechanics" of the past would more than make up from the evolution of knowledge that took many years to develop. To put it simply, if I could pick a team of the top 5 players in the past year and put them against the top 5 players (even if they are the same people) back in any other past era, my team would completely dominate. Even if this theory that the top players' mechanics are worse is true, and for some players it probably is (but certainly not all), the knowledge would way more than make up for it. | ||
Ethelis
United States2394 Posts
On August 10 2019 05:58 Jaeyun wrote: Just to clarify as my post may have been a little misleading - I don't deny that there was probably more time to practice mechanics and to execute strategies (though, there were less serious variation to deal with back then than now). With time, study, and practice, the KeSPA players would be able to pull off what is happening today (obviously, since they're doing it now). What I absolutely disagree with is this notion that the "far superior mechanics" of the past would more than make up from the evolution of knowledge that took many years to develop. To put it simply, if I could pick a team of the top 5 players in the past year and put them against the top 5 players (even if they are the same people) back in any other past era, my team would completely dominate. Even if this theory that the top players' mechanics are worse is true, and for some players it probably is (but certainly not all), the knowledge would way more than make up for it. It's more grey than that imo. I think only the TvZ/ZvT knowledge and PvT (Protoss perspective only) could make up for the mechanical difference. The 3 mirror match ups? No way. The rest is harder to make a case for as to which would be stronger. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19033 Posts
On August 10 2019 07:34 Ethelis wrote: It's more grey than that imo. I think only the TvZ/ZvT knowledge and PvT (Protoss perspective only) could make up for the mechanical difference. The 3 mirror match ups? No way. The rest is harder to make a case for as to which would be stronger. I'm genuinely curious how good Rain is at PvP. Is he one of the best of all time or are the other protoss players that lacking in PvP skill. Would peak form Kal , Stork, Bisu, or Shuttle loss just as easily or at their Kespa best would they be so good Rain would be mediocre against them. I personally it's a mix. He's definitely one of the best, but I think that he really hasn't been challenged yet. Before Rain and after Kespa PvP was actually a really rare matchup in tournaments and not practiced often. I think the low priority of need to be good at PvP has made everyone but Rain complacent and his brilliant mind is just taking advantage of it. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On August 10 2019 01:31 Liquid`Drone wrote: This was either a very classy way of conceding the argument or a very low class way of walking away from it. :D It's not worth my time any longer. If someone intelligent advances the discussion, I'll rejoin. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
On August 10 2019 05:58 Jaeyun wrote: What I absolutely disagree with is this notion that the "far superior mechanics" of the past would more than make up from the evolution of knowledge that took many years to develop. To put it simply, if I could pick a team of the top 5 players in the past year and put them against the top 5 players (even if they are the same people) back in any other past era, my team would completely dominate. Even if this theory that the top players' mechanics are worse is true, and for some players it probably is (but certainly not all), the knowledge would way more than make up for it. "current knowledge" is just slight refinements/variations of old builds. 5rax+1, 111, goliath openings...all these builds that flash pushes for tvz meta over the past few years are nothing really new, their general idea already exist back in modern kespa era...same goes for zerg responses. also the "evolution" only occurs for certain couple matchups, theres basically no change in say, zvz. the way people describe "current knowledge" here and now is really hyperbolic, making it seem like the meta is completely flipped over with some absolutely revolutionary ideas when there aren't. tvz goliath opening isn't some revolutionary shit. also for zerg i would pick 08/09 JD over any current zerg player with sole exception of in-form effort maybe. his level of mechanics and execution is just leaguessss above any zerg i seen today and i have no doubt he can adjust his strats on the fly against mere refinements of terran builds that he has already faced numerous times before. | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
[B]On August 10 2019 08:29 BisuDagger wrote: I'm genuinely curious how good Rain is at PvP. Is he one of the best of all time or are the other protoss players that lacking in PvP skill. Would peak form Kal , Stork, Bisu, or Shuttle loss just as easily or at their Kespa best would they be so good Rain would be mediocre against them. I personally it's a mix. He's definitely one of the best, but I think that he really hasn't been challenged yet. Before Rain and after Kespa PvP was actually a really rare matchup in tournaments and not practiced often. I think the low priority of need to be good at PvP has made everyone but Rain complacent and his brilliant mind is just taking advantage of it. Seems like a fair assessment. P v P is largely mind games because the build order advantages are more pronounced than other matchups. Only z v z has a similar level. So perhaps everyone has a relatively similar level of micro mechanics and this further leverages Rain's ability to out think everyone else. | ||
Ethelis
United States2394 Posts
On August 10 2019 13:49 ggsimida wrote: "current knowledge" is just slight refinements/variations of old builds. 5rax+1, 111, goliath openings...all these builds that flash pushes for tvz meta over the past few years are nothing really new, their general idea already exist back in modern kespa era...same goes for zerg responses. also the "evolution" only occurs for certain couple matchups, theres basically no change in say, zvz. the way people describe "current knowledge" here and now is really hyperbolic, making it seem like the meta is completely flipped over with some absolutely revolutionary ideas when there aren't. tvz goliath opening isn't some revolutionary shit. also for zerg i would pick 08/09 JD over any current zerg player with sole exception of in-form effort maybe. his level of mechanics and execution is just leaguessss above any zerg i seen today and i have no doubt he can adjust his strats on the fly against mere refinements of terran builds that he has already faced numerous times before. Goliath openings were never as stable as they are today (at least not in the "prime" KeSPA era). The hardest hitting version of a Goliath build that I remember is the one off 14cc. As we know, 14cc every game isn't stable at all. As to whether the Goliath is stable because of today's maps might be a topic worth exploring but I get the impression that this isn't the case. I don't really watch sponmatches really so I can't confidently take stance on this. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
On August 10 2019 15:20 Ethelis wrote: Goliath openings were never as stable as they are today (at least not in the "prime" KeSPA era). The hardest hitting version of a Goliath build that I remember is the one off 14cc. As we know, 14cc every game isn't stable at all. As to whether the Goliath is stable because of today's maps might be a topic worth exploring but I get the impression that this isn't the case. I don't really watch sponmatches really so I can't confidently take stance on this. 14cc is just flash taking risks to grab any advantage he can get due to tighter competition back in the day, its not something he needs to do anymore now that his current level of execution outclasses almost everyone. current goliath build its just econ 2fact with concepts of Fantasy build of using vultures early on to deny ling allin/scouting +possible starport for drop harass. today's mechanic/execution standards are lower which make MM a bitch to work well, so theres no incentive for terran to switch to MM after 2fact (aka fake mech) like in the modern kespa days. its a build well tailored and refined to today's meta but its ideas aren't anything super interesting or innovative. | ||
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