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[KSL3] Ro16 Day 8 - Group D Winners/Losers Matches - Page 5
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On May 11 2019 22:32 Turbovolver wrote: Hey, if "good at weighted rock paper scissors" is the kind of skill you want to see from your favourite Starcraft players, more power to you!Hey, if "good at weighted rock paper scissors" is the kind of skill you want to see from your favourite Starcraft players, more power to you! I'll be over here enjoying it when Stork crushes JD with baller storms, and good harass and decision making, instead. Also AttackZerg, I'm not gonna really reply to your five paragraphs of ad hom and single argument "the more skilled player is the one who wins" (I disagree). But I'll just point out that no, when Boxer 3-0'd Yellow with bunker rushes, I wouldn't call that a very good demonstration of Boxer's skill. I mean I admit it's been ages since I saw the games, but I think it's safe to say many Terrans could have done the same thing in the same position. And you'll note that's precisely what I said in my original post here. "Those games weren't a very good demonstration of Rain's skill". If you want to actually go over all the small little things Rain apparently did that other Protoss wouldn't have, that would honestly be cool, and might increase my respect for him as a player. Couple things to say to this: -Obviously last by going 14cc was making an economic gamble, and was trying to win just based on the "roll of the dice" right? but you give a pass to last and get angry about rains gamble? -it was not in fact a gamble, but a calculated decision---by the both of them-- to make the builds they did when they did. Clearly, by virtue of the fact that rain went proxy double gate vs 14 cc, we know which one got the better of eachother. That is a skill, its all about series play, player psychology, etc. The fact that your blind to this says a lot about you as a person. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
On May 12 2019 03:45 Dazed. wrote: Hey, if "good at weighted rock paper scissors" is the kind of skill you want to see from your favourite Starcraft players, more power to you! Couple things to say to this: -Obviously last by going 14cc was making an economic gamble, and was trying to win just based on the "roll of the dice" right? but you give a pass to last and get angry about rains gamble? I'm not angry that Rain decided to gamble! Nowhere in the thread did I say Rain shouldn't have proxy gated, or that it was a bad move, or that I'm mad about it. If you're talking about me saying "Screw you Rain" then that was both a) fairly good natured in intention b) a response to the fact that he made it a Last vs Stork final match for the group I also didn't say that Last wasn't gambling! Indeed, I'll give it to you right here, 14cc is a bigger gamble than a single proxy gate in modern TvP! Last was absolutely gambling too, and in that game it didn't pan out. But when both players gamble and it leads to a hard BO win, it doesn't show much skill from the actual players, which is what I said! The stuff in a later post about Rain gambling because he realised he was inferior was proved to be bunk because the previous match where I was remembering that apparently happening was actually against Sharp  On May 12 2019 03:45 Dazed. wrote: -it was not in fact a gamble, but a calculated decision---by the both of them-- to make the builds they did when they did. Clearly, by virtue of the fact that rain went proxy double gate vs 14 cc, we know which one got the better of eachother. That is a skill, its all about series play, player psychology, etc. Yes, this is competitive rock-paper-scissors. As I said, if you enjoy that aspect, good for you. The thing is, competitive rock-paper-scissors is played with many many rounds, to reduce variance. A single Starcraft Bo5 is not. So it's always a shame when games are decided by rock-paper-scissors, because the sample size isn't high enough to really indicate skill in "series play and player psychology", and the games generally aren't good enough to show much Starcraft skill. Why do you think PvP and ZvZ are the most unpopular matchups? They tend to lead to the most straight-up BO wins. On May 12 2019 03:45 Dazed. wrote: The fact that your blind to this says a lot about you as a person. Says a lot about the strawman you've constructed who rages every time a player he likes gets cheesed, maybe. Cuz that aint' me. On May 12 2019 03:27 Ej_ wrote: Stay salty about Last going 14cc vs the "inferior" player Got multiple people coming out of the woodwork just to complain about the fact that I said those games didn't display a great deal of skill so I'm wondering who are the salty ones... ...but arguing about who or who isn't salty isn't good thread-reading and it's a shame several of you have pushed the discussion there. This is the last shitting up of this thread I'm gonna do. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On May 12 2019 07:17 Turbovolver wrote: A lot of shit in this thread... I say you are just a salty hater. If you want to bring up concepts like variance, you need to define mean and give it a decent background (ie is your mean playing standar 3 base macro play?). In your best scenario you will end up trying to define a "normal" or "proper" way to play wich has been proven useless and also meaningless. Making small risk involved moves is actually the way all pros play and what you call RPS (and in my opinion is not) is all over Broowar history. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
STORK IS BACK BITCHES! That was damn fine showing up, solid macro, precise army movements, brilliant harassment. JD 0-6 is sad thought  | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
Broodwar lessons are often free. It is not ad homin to point out, that you are clearly a bad player. This effects your judgement and understanding of the proceedings. As a Category 2 or B player in chess, I am unqualified and often wrong in my own games, let alone reviewing the play of grandmasters, international masters or just regular national masters. Broodwar is not chess, the tournaments have never set out to find the most skilled player. No best of 100 has ever been proposed. There is no objective measure in tournament broodwar besides winning. You think what you think because you are too low to the ground to have perspective. If you hadn't dimissed every attempt to learn in this thread. I would have gladly explained Rains moves. But let's be real, you aren't trying to learn. You have fanboy non-player idealistic perspective of tournament broodwar and skill and keep posting to save face. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
He had a similar crazy game to game 3 here against Soma in CMSL so I was afraid he wouldn't be able to close it out but this was classic Stork. The small strategic decisions which accrued him his wins are what makes me still excited to root for him. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
On May 13 2019 02:51 PVJ wrote: What a satisfying series from Stork. ~~~ He had a similar crazy game to game 3 here against Soma in CMSL so I was afraid he wouldn't be able to close it out but this was classic Stork. The small strategic decisions which accrued him his wins are what makes me still excited to root for him. I agree. Sad Jaedong lost so resoundingly but an in form Stork is a good consolation. Him and Nal_ra hold a special place in my heart. They aren't the fastest but they are so smart. Commander and Chief of no mistakes hwaitng!! | ||
Artas1984
135 Posts
When it comes to Rain vs. Last i tell you the truth: Rain was just lucky to have his scarabs hit so well in game 3, because we know when it comes to scarab hits there is no such thing as skill, same with spider mines hitting dragoons. And then he gambled on Last's CC expand before Barracks in game 4, lucky punk. Game 1 clearly showed that Rain sucks as a filed strategist and nobody will tell me otherwise.. An S class protoss would never attack a sieged up terran on high ground unless 100 % confident that his superior army in numbers or upgrades would prevail, so wtf was that loosing all those zealots for nothing? He also did not make armor upgrades for interceptors, so they died just before returning to carriers. He won the second match very hard after he got a good initiative, he just barely held it. So Rain did not impress me here. He has to earn his respect in other ways than lucky scarabs and proxy gates vs. 14 CC. But Last is also not that good to deserve ''number one terran''. No way. He might be a better field strategist than Rain, but his decision making and his micro was what made his loose, and seems Rain has these attributes in quite a better quality. | ||
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RWLabs
Korea (South)273 Posts
Starcraft isn't a game about playing standard every game, it's about winning. There's a reason why casters talk so much about psychological warfare; aside from the mechanics and builds it's about abusing the opponent's mindset to maximize in-game advantages. Faulting Rain for playing cheesy tactics and calling him an inferior player is like calling Boxer a shitty D tier player because he bunker rushed Yellow three times straight. It's on the player to be aware that cheesy plays can happen and modify builds around it. Last's early game was always historically weak, and it showed. | ||
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Ideas
United States8142 Posts
I don't know what his practice regiment was like for KSL (presumably he didn't stream while practicing) but every time I checked his stream the last month he was playing LoL. I'm not saying he didn't take KSL seriously or practice at all for it, but that drive to be the best and practice non-stop that made him the Tyrant back in the day isn't there any more (and probably for good reason as he doesn't want to sacrifice his health any more). I'm always going to love and cheer for JD, but I'm not mad that he can't play the way he used to any more. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Incomplete..ReV
Norway637 Posts
JD's loss was a bit heartbreaking, though. Really well played by Stork, the way he was always on top. But JD just seemed...off. Cool to see Stork perform so well, but still a rather sad series. | ||
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