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byj
493 Posts
On May 27 2018 20:38 GTR wrote: jeez you must be a huge hit at parties. throwback to the greatest worst game of all time here it is in a bit better quality. Just wondering, what was all that 2000 stuff about? | ||
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funnybananaman
United States830 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
Because he won vs FlaSh and usopsama is nothing, but a fanboy filled prejudices. | ||
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TonDan
65 Posts
On May 28 2018 22:36 Valikyr wrote: Winning both a GSL and an ASL is pretty damn impressive. He needs to win the 24 other SLs to ascend into Valhalla | ||
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HaruHaru
United States988 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On May 29 2018 00:22 Ej_ wrote: Because he won vs FlaSh and usopsama is nothing, but a fanboy filled prejudices. TBH, his macro is bad compared to the competition. Which makes it all the more impressive - beating Flash and then comfortably defeating Mini, who's a decent enough protoss in his own right. Snow has shown great map analysis and preparation; he has pretty great micro; he lacks in macro and a bit in calmness, I guess, but big stage experience comes with big games. Then again, he beat Flash and didn't look intimidated at any point. | ||
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Miragee
8411 Posts
On May 29 2018 07:17 TaardadAiel wrote: TBH, his macro is bad compared to the competition. Which makes it all the more impressive - beating Flash and then comfortably defeating Mini, who's a decent enough protoss in his own right. Snow has shown great map analysis and preparation; he has pretty great micro; he lacks in macro and a bit in calmness, I guess, but big stage experience comes with big games. Then again, he beat Flash and didn't look intimidated at any point. It felt like he was a bit shaken in this series after g1. I think this series would have looked very different if Snow wouldn't have failed that one engagement near the end. | ||
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RKC
2847 Posts
On May 29 2018 07:25 Miragee wrote: It felt like he was a bit shaken in this series after g1. I think this series would have looked very different if Snow wouldn't have failed that one engagement near the end. Generally Snow has a cunning and aggressive playstyle. It makes his games fun to watch. Unfortunately, it comes with a heavy price - volatility and variance. The more you roll the dice, the more you open yourself to bad luck. In the finals, he tried too hard to outwit Rain - ended up backfiring. Case in point is G2 with the proxy gates. Even in the games against Flash, some of the manoeuvres felt rather YOLO and IDGAF. I think he admitted himself during the post-game interview on his persistent engagements in G5 (something to that effect). Yes, he ended up victorious on that occasion. But such risky playstyle will not hold up in the long run. In contrast, Rain has demonstrated great balance in playing sneaky and solid. He's the deserving ASL champion. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
He is not somebody who pays extreme detail to probe count optimization, adding additional gateways at just the right moments, and constantly switching screeens to manage multiple bases. CJ Entus protoss players such as Much, Movie, and SnOw had a tendency to play a more tactical game as opposed to the more optimization-based, solid macro-management style that was enjoyed by the SK Telecom T1 protoss players. Words such as abusive, and infuriating may suit how these players utilized protoss units to create their chances. Rain has a much cleaner, more optimization based game that has incredibly well thought out flow-charty feel to it. He is basically the post-Bisu everybody was looking for (both have good multi-tasking skills, although Bisu's multi-tasking has a much more innate feel to it), while SnOw creates opportunities and capitalizes on them in his own unique manner. SnOw will never be someone like Bisu (stylistically speaking Rain is a much better candidate, and while Mini is fast he reminds me more of Kal than Bisu), but I think he has the potential in him to become the next Stork (although Stork was a much more well rounded player during his prime). | ||
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RKC
2847 Posts
On May 29 2018 10:55 Letmelose wrote: SnOw is not a macro-management player, he wins through tactical maneuvers, heroic usage of key units such as reavers and carriers, and his games tend to be won and lost off what happens on a single screen. He is not somebody who pays extreme detail to probe count optimization, adding additional gateways at just the right moments, and constantly switching screeens to manage multiple bases. CJ Entus protoss players such as Much, Movie, and SnOw had a tendency to play a more tactical game as opposed to the more optimization-based, solid macro-management style that was enjoyed by the SK Telecom T1 protoss players. Words such as abusive, and infuriating may suit how these players utilized protoss units to create their chances. Rain has a much cleaner, more optimization based game that has incredibly well thought out flow-charty feel to it. He is basically the post-Bisu everybody was looking for (both have good multi-tasking skills, although Bisu's multi-tasking has a much more innate feel to it), while SnOw creates opportunities and capitalizes on them in his own unique manner. SnOw will never be someone like Bisu (stylistically speaking Rain is a much better candidate, and while Mini is fast he reminds me more of Kal than Bisu), but I think he has the potential in him to become the next Stork (although Stork was a much more well rounded player during his prime). Yes, that's a better exposition than mine. In short, Snow should switch to SC2 for better payoffs  (kidding!)Serious question: - How do you describe Stork's playstyle? I can't seem to find anything remarkable or flashy in his games (I consider myself fairly objective - I enjoy Rain's solid and strategic playstyle as much as Bisu's crazy micro and multi-tasking). - And what about Jangbi? (As much as I enjoyed his Legend of the Fall final games, I haven't seen enough of his other games.) | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On May 29 2018 14:15 RKC wrote: Yes, that's a better exposition than mine. In short, Snow should switch to SC2 for better payoffs (kidding!)Serious question: - How do you describe Stork's playstyle? I can't seem to find anything remarkable or flashy in his games (I consider myself fairly objective - I enjoy Rain's solid and strategic playstyle as much as Bisu's crazy micro and multi-tasking). - And what about Jangbi? (As much as I enjoyed his Legend of the Fall final games, I haven't seen enough of his other games.) If watching CJ Entus protoss players gave me the feeling that these players were abusing specific certain protoss units, compositions, and techniques, watching Samsung Khan protosses (more specifically Stork and JangBi) personally gave me a feeling that these players mastered all available techniques and tactics regarding protoss warfare (ranging from guerrilla warfare to epic large scale battles). SnOw's play-style isn't necessarily flawed, he just needs to build on his already potent repertoire of skill-sets. Of course, SnOw does have one of the worst multiple screen management I've seen from a top flight protoss player, which explains his sub-par macro-management. However, his play-making ability with reavers alone make him one of the most feared protoss-versus-terran players in the game. Such mastery over a unit cannot be ignored. I think it is not a coincidence that SnOw holds the title for the most recorded kills from a single unit (72 kills from a single reaver) in a televised match. JangBi during his prime is the most gifted protoss player I've seen thus far, in terms of his ability to make something out of nothing within a single screen, with nothing but his raw execution of play-making to fall back on. SnOw isn't there yet, but his play-making with units such as reavers and carriers have always been top notch, and if he builds on that, his approach to the game may not be a limiting factor. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On May 29 2018 07:25 Miragee wrote: It felt like he was a bit shaken in this series after g1. I think this series would have looked very different if Snow wouldn't have failed that one engagement near the end. That's why I think he would benefit from being calmer, I felt the same way. And yeah, his style is pretty aggressive and I think Rain is a natural counter to that. In game 1 Snow was simply outsmarted - he overcame his early difficulties through sheer mechanics, developed an advantage and lost because of superior tactics and positioning on Rain's part. Yea, his army comp was inferior - storm was an important factor - but he got himself into a premium pincer and gave the initiative suddenly, soI felt that engagement was the deal-breaker. He showed the same smart movement and positioning in G3, overpowering Rain in a beautiful fashion, although he was in a good spot strategically as well. My point is Rain is just too smart and prepared to lose a bo5 to cunning and micro. And Snow loses his observers a bit too easily in my opinion, maybe Rain went an extra mile to snipe them, this playstyle relies in part on awareness and vision. | ||
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Miragee
8411 Posts
On May 29 2018 09:59 RKC wrote: Generally Snow has a cunning and aggressive playstyle. It makes his games fun to watch. Unfortunately, it comes with a heavy price - volatility and variance. The more you roll the dice, the more you open yourself to bad luck. In the finals, he tried too hard to outwit Rain - ended up backfiring. Case in point is G2 with the proxy gates. Even in the games against Flash, some of the manoeuvres felt rather YOLO and IDGAF. I think he admitted himself during the post-game interview on his persistent engagements in G5 (something to that effect). Yes, he ended up victorious on that occasion. But such risky playstyle will not hold up in the long run. In contrast, Rain has demonstrated great balance in playing sneaky and solid. He's the deserving ASL champion. That's not what I meant. I realise what you were saying but I was talking about the execution. So, in the Flash games his engagements and strategic movements were all solid. Yes there is risky play and it can backfire even when you don't slip but he didn't show the same kind of weakness like he did in his games versus Rain (after G1). G1 most of the engagements he handled fairly well and he just completely slipped in the last big one which ultimately lost him the game. After that he made so many mistakes micro-wise which was uncharacteristic imho. On May 29 2018 10:55 Letmelose wrote: SnOw is not a macro-management player, he wins through tactical maneuvers, heroic usage of key units such as reavers and carriers, and his games tend to be won and lost off what happens on a single screen. He is not somebody who pays extreme detail to probe count optimization, adding additional gateways at just the right moments, and constantly switching screeens to manage multiple bases. CJ Entus protoss players such as Much, Movie, and SnOw had a tendency to play a more tactical game as opposed to the more optimization-based, solid macro-management style that was enjoyed by the SK Telecom T1 protoss players. Words such as abusive, and infuriating may suit how these players utilized protoss units to create their chances. Rain has a much cleaner, more optimization based game that has incredibly well thought out flow-charty feel to it. He is basically the post-Bisu everybody was looking for (both have good multi-tasking skills, although Bisu's multi-tasking has a much more innate feel to it), while SnOw creates opportunities and capitalizes on them in his own unique manner. SnOw will never be someone like Bisu (stylistically speaking Rain is a much better candidate, and while Mini is fast he reminds me more of Kal than Bisu), but I think he has the potential in him to become the next Stork (although Stork was a much more well rounded player during his prime). /sign On May 29 2018 14:15 RKC wrote: Yes, that's a better exposition than mine. In short, Snow should switch to SC2 for better payoffs (kidding!)Serious question: - How do you describe Stork's playstyle? I can't seem to find anything remarkable or flashy in his games (I consider myself fairly objective - I enjoy Rain's solid and strategic playstyle as much as Bisu's crazy micro and multi-tasking). - And what about Jangbi? (As much as I enjoyed his Legend of the Fall final games, I haven't seen enough of his other games.) Letmelose will probably come back and answer that question in a lot more detail and with way better wording than I could ever do but I'll try. I think the biggest thing about Stork for me was that he wasn't a one-trick pony or had a special style or unit he would excel at. He could use the whole protoss arsenal and just never showed real weakness. He wasn't as good as Bisu with his Shuttles and multi-tasking heavy harassment but his reaver and storm drops were still very frightning. Bisu for example was known for not being very good at PvT late game because his options were kind of limited due to his skill set. Like, Bisu's carrier micro was mediocre, his lategame army engagement was kind of mediocre. Stork however had great carrier micro, solid army engagement, good lategame storms, good arbiter usage etc. He was much more versatile and as such more well-rounded. There wasn't a weak phase for him in any match-up. Some players are strong in the early or midgame (like Effort, forGG, kwanro) but not as good in the late game. Some players are better in the lategame (like Best, Sea...) but Stork maintained a very high level from the very beginning to the very end of a game. His macro was also rock-solid. So yeah, he was probably the most well-rounded, balanced top-end protoss of all time (imho). As for JangBi, I was never a fan of him but he would probably be the master of unit compositions and how he would use them. It always felt like he would build the best composition for the current situation and would keep track of all the numbers. He would also make more out of the units he had on the field in some situations than other protoss players could do. He won fights that seemed impossible to win. Like him or not but he had impeccable ways to take engagements such as angles he would come from, focussing, timing and placement of spells etc. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5211 Posts
His observer positioning has been a work of art regardless of matchup that allowed him to do some outlandishly smart things. Well, then again, I'm biased so take this with a grain of salt. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On May 29 2018 21:44 PVJ wrote: Sorry to chime in: One thing about Stork that I wanted to make a whole post and image gallery about that I don't see much mentioned is how incredibly intelligent and diligent he is in gathering information. His observer positioning has been a work of art regardless of matchup that allowed him to do some outlandishly smart things. Well, then again, I'm biased so take this with a grain of salt. Word. Between pylons on the map and observers, in some games he felt like knowing if you changed underwear this morning. | ||
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TonDan
65 Posts
On May 29 2018 21:44 PVJ wrote: Sorry to chime in: One thing about Stork that I wanted to make a whole post and image gallery about that I don't see much mentioned is how incredibly intelligent and diligent he is in gathering information. His observer positioning has been a work of art regardless of matchup that allowed him to do some outlandishly smart things. Well, then again, I'm biased so take this with a grain of salt. obs position doesn't seem like high level thinking. it's something that can be taught even to someone who has only played bw for a few days. storks seems more like a checklist type of player. He's got a to do list of things that makes his style robust but incredibly boring. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On May 30 2018 07:32 TonDan wrote: obs position doesn't seem like high level thinking. it's something that can be taught even to someone who has only played bw for a few days. storks seems more like a checklist type of player. He's got a to do list of things that makes his style robust but incredibly boring. While Stork's macro-management decisions weren't picture perfect, his attention to the minute details would often be water-tight during his prime. It is something that is severely lacking from him in his current form, and to pretend all of it is muscle memory that can be mastered by even the novice players is an over-statement. Take a look at the second game of his quarter-finals match against Bisu, Stork is preparing for a two reaver timing push against Bisu, and Bisu scouts the first reaver with his observer. Stork starts to unload then load his first reaver in an off-beat manner with Bisu's observer watching, and this is just one of the finer attentions to detail Stork possessed that others lacked. By having his first reaver sometimes visible, and sometimes not visible from the map, Stork was attempting to obfuscate the timing of the second reaver, by making it not clear whether the reaver being loaded was the first reaver being unloaded then loaded, or the second reaver being loaded with the first reaver already being inside the shuttle. When Stork defeated FanTaSy on Flight-Dreamliner with perfect carrier utilization, he mentioned in an interview that he control grouped his carriers separately so that his DPS would be maximized. Not only was the actual execution of carrier micro-management a cut above the rest, Stork knew when to target goliaths, and when to target siege tanks, when to spread the terran army thin with his ground troops, which terrain to abuse, and when to ignore the terran army entirely. All these things add up, and Stork during his prime handled the protoss units with more care and precision than any other protoss players I've seen. Despite having played more games of televised Brood War matches than any protoss player in history, it was quite rare to find matches where Stork lost solely due to a severe mishandling of his units. He was an artisan of protoss units, and while players have their signature units such as SnOw with his reavers, or Bisu with his corsairs, Stork probably had the broadest, as well as the deepest knowledge of how to handle the entire arsenal of protoss units. It is a matter of player preference. Some players like to bring their units to life. Some players focus more on their bases and optimize their infrastructure to perfection. Some players like to perform more tasks within a given time-frame, and try to multi-task the opponent to death. There are so many dimensions to this game that no player can be perfect in everything, and we will never see a perfect game of Brood War unless there is an AI capable of issuing infinite commands working with an algorithm of the highest calibre. Everyone has their own unique philosophy on how to approach the game, and the proving grounds are the competitive platforms. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but nothing can take away competitive results. | ||
nimdil
Poland3746 Posts
On May 30 2018 10:22 Letmelose wrote: While Stork's macro-management decisions weren't picture perfect, his attention to the minute details would often be water-tight during his prime. It is something that is severely lacking from him in his current form, and to pretend all of it is muscle memory that can be mastered by even the novice players is an over-statement. Take a look at the second game of his quarter-finals match against Bisu, Stork is preparing for a two reaver timing push against Bisu, and Bisu scouts the first reaver with his observer. Stork starts to unload then load his first reaver in an off-beat manner with Bisu's observer watching, and this is just one of the finer attentions to detail Stork possessed that others lacked. By having his first reaver sometimes visible, and sometimes not visible from the map, Stork was attempting to obfuscate the timing of the second reaver, by making it not clear whether the reaver being loaded was the first reaver being unloaded then loaded, or the second reaver being loaded with the first reaver already being inside the shuttle. When Stork defeated FanTaSy on Flight-Dreamliner with perfect carrier utilization, he mentioned in an interview that he control grouped his carriers separately so that his DPS would be maximized. Not only was the actual execution of carrier micro-management a cut above the rest, Stork knew when to target goliaths, and when to target siege tanks, when to spread the terran army thin with his ground troops, which terrain to abuse, and when to ignore the terran army entirely. All these things add up, and Stork during his prime handled the protoss units with more care and precision than any other protoss players I've seen. Despite having played more games of televised Brood War matches than any protoss player in history, it was quite rare to find matches where Stork lost solely due to a severe mishandling of his units. He was an artisan of protoss units, and while players have their signature units such as SnOw with his reavers, or Bisu with his corsairs, Stork probably had the broadest, as well as the deepest knowledge of how to handle the entire arsenal of protoss units. It is a matter of player preference. Some players like to bring their units to life. Some players focus more on their bases and optimize their infrastructure to perfection. Some players like to perform more tasks within a given time-frame, and try to multi-task the opponent to death. There are so many dimensions to this game that no player can be perfect in everything, and we will never see a perfect game of Brood War unless there is an AI capable of issuing infinite commands working with an algorithm of the highest calibre. Everyone has their own unique philosophy on how to approach the game, and the proving grounds are the competitive platforms. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but nothing can take away competitive results. That's a lot more in-depth analysis of his game that I could ever provide, but for me Stork's Carrier transission in PvT was always a joy to watch. I honestly can't say I was ever excited by his PvZ, on the other hand. | ||
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