[ASL5] Grand Finals - Rain vs Snow

On May 27 2018 17:08 sixfour wrote:
hour earlier than normal which i hope is not just for k-pop, but let's gogogo snow

On May 27 2018 17:13 Copymizer wrote:
Awesome venue, i love the setup. Does anyone know what city it's taking place in? I'm hyped for brood war :D

On May 27 2018 17:32 GTR wrote:
is there a story why snow is snow1?

On May 27 2018 17:51 konadora wrote:
GG

ROFL WOW

HOW DID SNOW LOSE THAT

On May 27 2018 17:51 xccam wrote:

He didn't make templar until it was too late.

On May 27 2018 17:52 Greg_J wrote:
He skipped storm. Which seems like a bad move on a map with so many choke points.

On May 27 2018 18:16 konadora wrote:
afreeca really needs to upgrade their servers... cant stream on source

On May 27 2018 18:22 r.Evo wrote:

Does the YT stream not work for you? That one was always flawless for me.

On May 27 2018 18:26 Dante08 wrote:
This could have been a Flash and Rain final

On May 27 2018 18:27 Greg_J wrote:
The more he loseses the stronger I cheer for Snow. Come on!

Rain does look too good though.

On May 27 2018 18:26 Dante08 wrote:
This could have been a Flash and Rain final

On May 27 2018 18:40 asel wrote:
Well, at least it's not a zvz final.

On May 27 2018 19:12 Heartland wrote:


Unfortunately.

On May 27 2018 19:22 oxKnu wrote:
That last game was stupid. Ban Sparkle.

Rain's game is boring.

On May 27 2018 19:30 konadora wrote:
OOH

NEW BW AMATEUR LEAGUE STARTING SOON

ASL SEASON 6 CONFIRMED

On May 27 2018 19:32 BLinD-RawR wrote:


the drama pre ASL5 was for team battle, which they haven't announced this time either.

On May 27 2018 19:32 BLinD-RawR wrote:


the drama pre ASL5 was for team battle, which they haven't announced this time either.

However... as with ASL4, ASL5 is going through a rough patch. The cooperation of the relevant game company is important, but it just isn't working out. The important thing here is the voice of StarCraft 1 fans. I request our users to strongly urge that relevant game company to start ASL5.

On May 27 2018 19:23 konadora wrote:

were we watching the same game?

On May 27 2018 19:34 oxKnu wrote:


Yes we did.

Summary of this finals: Two stupid mistakes by Snow. One decent close game. A superior build by Snow.

Last year's final was so much better even if it was one-sided.

On May 27 2018 19:30 konadora wrote:
OOH

NEW BW AMATEUR LEAGUE STARTING SOON

ASL SEASON 6 CONFIRMED

On May 27 2018 19:44 tanngard wrote:

You do realize that BW is a game where mistakes are made often? They dont overshadow everything else..

On May 27 2018 20:31 oxKnu wrote:


Sure, but that doesn't mean that I can just brush over it. When it doesn't happen, games are much much better.

On May 28 2018 03:46 usopsama wrote:
Good to see the fluke got destroyed 1-3 in the finals.

On May 27 2018 20:38 GTR wrote:
jeez you must be a huge hit at parties.

throwback to the greatest worst game of all time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2-cmuINQZA

On May 28 2018 22:36 Valikyr wrote:
Winning both a GSL and an ASL is pretty damn impressive.

On May 29 2018 00:22 Ej_ wrote:

Because he won vs FlaSh and usopsama is nothing, but a fanboy filled prejudices.

On May 29 2018 07:17 TaardadAiel wrote:


TBH, his macro is bad compared to the competition. Which makes it all the more impressive - beating Flash and then comfortably defeating Mini, who's a decent enough protoss in his own right. Snow has shown great map analysis and preparation; he has pretty great micro; he lacks in macro and a bit in calmness, I guess, but big stage experience comes with big games. Then again, he beat Flash and didn't look intimidated at any point.

On May 29 2018 07:25 Miragee wrote:


It felt like he was a bit shaken in this series after g1. I think this series would have looked very different if Snow wouldn't have failed that one engagement near the end.

On May 29 2018 10:55 Letmelose wrote:
SnOw is not a macro-management player, he wins through tactical maneuvers, heroic usage of key units such as reavers and carriers, and his games tend to be won and lost off what happens on a single screen.

He is not somebody who pays extreme detail to probe count optimization, adding additional gateways at just the right moments, and constantly switching screeens to manage multiple bases.

CJ Entus protoss players such as Much, Movie, and SnOw had a tendency to play a more tactical game as opposed to the more optimization-based, solid macro-management style that was enjoyed by the SK Telecom T1 protoss players. Words such as abusive, and infuriating may suit how these players utilized protoss units to create their chances.

Rain has a much cleaner, more optimization based game that has incredibly well thought out flow-charty feel to it. He is basically the post-Bisu everybody was looking for (both have good multi-tasking skills, although Bisu's multi-tasking has a much more innate feel to it), while SnOw creates opportunities and capitalizes on them in his own unique manner.

SnOw will never be someone like Bisu (stylistically speaking Rain is a much better candidate, and while Mini is fast he reminds me more of Kal than Bisu), but I think he has the potential in him to become the next Stork (although Stork was a much more well rounded player during his prime).

On May 29 2018 14:15 RKC wrote:


Yes, that's a better exposition than mine.

In short, Snow should switch to SC2 for better payoffs (kidding!)

Serious question:
- How do you describe Stork's playstyle? I can't seem to find anything remarkable or flashy in his games (I consider myself fairly objective - I enjoy Rain's solid and strategic playstyle as much as Bisu's crazy micro and multi-tasking).
- And what about Jangbi? (As much as I enjoyed his Legend of the Fall final games, I haven't seen enough of his other games.)

On May 29 2018 07:25 Miragee wrote:


It felt like he was a bit shaken in this series after g1. I think this series would have looked very different if Snow wouldn't have failed that one engagement near the end.

On May 29 2018 09:59 RKC wrote:


Generally Snow has a cunning and aggressive playstyle. It makes his games fun to watch. Unfortunately, it comes with a heavy price - volatility and variance. The more you roll the dice, the more you open yourself to bad luck.

In the finals, he tried too hard to outwit Rain - ended up backfiring. Case in point is G2 with the proxy gates.

Even in the games against Flash, some of the manoeuvres felt rather YOLO and IDGAF. I think he admitted himself during the post-game interview on his persistent engagements in G5 (something to that effect). Yes, he ended up victorious on that occasion. But such risky playstyle will not hold up in the long run.

In contrast, Rain has demonstrated great balance in playing sneaky and solid. He's the deserving ASL champion.

On May 29 2018 10:55 Letmelose wrote:
SnOw is not a macro-management player, he wins through tactical maneuvers, heroic usage of key units such as reavers and carriers, and his games tend to be won and lost off what happens on a single screen.

He is not somebody who pays extreme detail to probe count optimization, adding additional gateways at just the right moments, and constantly switching screeens to manage multiple bases.

CJ Entus protoss players such as Much, Movie, and SnOw had a tendency to play a more tactical game as opposed to the more optimization-based, solid macro-management style that was enjoyed by the SK Telecom T1 protoss players. Words such as abusive, and infuriating may suit how these players utilized protoss units to create their chances.

Rain has a much cleaner, more optimization based game that has incredibly well thought out flow-charty feel to it. He is basically the post-Bisu everybody was looking for (both have good multi-tasking skills, although Bisu's multi-tasking has a much more innate feel to it), while SnOw creates opportunities and capitalizes on them in his own unique manner.

SnOw will never be someone like Bisu (stylistically speaking Rain is a much better candidate, and while Mini is fast he reminds me more of Kal than Bisu), but I think he has the potential in him to become the next Stork (although Stork was a much more well rounded player during his prime).

On May 29 2018 14:15 RKC wrote:


Yes, that's a better exposition than mine.

In short, Snow should switch to SC2 for better payoffs (kidding!)

Serious question:
- How do you describe Stork's playstyle? I can't seem to find anything remarkable or flashy in his games (I consider myself fairly objective - I enjoy Rain's solid and strategic playstyle as much as Bisu's crazy micro and multi-tasking).
- And what about Jangbi? (As much as I enjoyed his Legend of the Fall final games, I haven't seen enough of his other games.)

On May 29 2018 21:44 PVJ wrote:
Sorry to chime in: One thing about Stork that I wanted to make a whole post and image gallery about that I don't see much mentioned is how incredibly intelligent and diligent he is in gathering information.

His observer positioning has been a work of art regardless of matchup that allowed him to do some outlandishly smart things.

Well, then again, I'm biased so take this with a grain of salt.

On May 29 2018 21:44 PVJ wrote:
Sorry to chime in: One thing about Stork that I wanted to make a whole post and image gallery about that I don't see much mentioned is how incredibly intelligent and diligent he is in gathering information.

His observer positioning has been a work of art regardless of matchup that allowed him to do some outlandishly smart things.

Well, then again, I'm biased so take this with a grain of salt.

On May 30 2018 07:32 TonDan wrote:


obs position doesn't seem like high level thinking. it's something that can be taught even to someone who has only played bw for a few days.

storks seems more like a checklist type of player. He's got a to do list of things that makes his style robust but incredibly boring.

On May 30 2018 10:22 Letmelose wrote:


While Stork's macro-management decisions weren't picture perfect, his attention to the minute details would often be water-tight during his prime. It is something that is severely lacking from him in his current form, and to pretend all of it is muscle memory that can be mastered by even the novice players is an over-statement.

Take a look at the second game of his quarter-finals match against Bisu, Stork is preparing for a two reaver timing push against Bisu, and Bisu scouts the first reaver with his observer.

Stork starts to unload then load his first reaver in an off-beat manner with Bisu's observer watching, and this is just one of the finer attentions to detail Stork possessed that others lacked. By having his first reaver sometimes visible, and sometimes not visible from the map, Stork was attempting to obfuscate the timing of the second reaver, by making it not clear whether the reaver being loaded was the first reaver being unloaded then loaded, or the second reaver being loaded with the first reaver already being inside the shuttle.

When Stork defeated FanTaSy on Flight-Dreamliner with perfect carrier utilization, he mentioned in an interview that he control grouped his carriers separately so that his DPS would be maximized. Not only was the actual execution of carrier micro-management a cut above the rest, Stork knew when to target goliaths, and when to target siege tanks, when to spread the terran army thin with his ground troops, which terrain to abuse, and when to ignore the terran army entirely. All these things add up, and Stork during his prime handled the protoss units with more care and precision than any other protoss players I've seen.

Despite having played more games of televised Brood War matches than any protoss player in history, it was quite rare to find matches where Stork lost solely due to a severe mishandling of his units. He was an artisan of protoss units, and while players have their signature units such as SnOw with his reavers, or Bisu with his corsairs, Stork probably had the broadest, as well as the deepest knowledge of how to handle the entire arsenal of protoss units.

It is a matter of player preference. Some players like to bring their units to life. Some players focus more on their bases and optimize their infrastructure to perfection. Some players like to perform more tasks within a given time-frame, and try to multi-task the opponent to death. There are so many dimensions to this game that no player can be perfect in everything, and we will never see a perfect game of Brood War unless there is an AI capable of issuing infinite commands working with an algorithm of the highest calibre. Everyone has their own unique philosophy on how to approach the game, and the proving grounds are the competitive platforms. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but nothing can take away competitive results.